← Talk Shop with Ariel Okin: A Fenimore Lane Production
Talk Shop with Ariel Okin: A Fenimore Lane Production
Inside the World of Guy Oliver: Britain’s Master of Timeless Design
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- [00:00]
Ariel Oken
Before we dive in, I wanted to take a moment to thank this season's presenting sponsor, Shopmy. Shopmy is a platform that connects designers, tastemakers and creators with shoppers who trust their style and recommendations. With Shopmy, you can discover and shop the pieces experts actually use and love in their own homes, all in one beautifully curated place. And now shopping is even easier with the launch of the new Shop My App. Create circles with your favorite curators like myself or today's guest. Discover new products tailored to your taste and save everything you love with wishlists and snapshot right in the app. Download the new Shop My App at the link in the show notes. And now on to this week's episode.
- [00:41]
Guy Oliver
I firmly believe that you're living in parallel dimensions. The way I describe it is if you're doing a project in Charleston, you're doing one in Kabul, you're working on a project in Tokyo. Those places exist temporarily. They're running, you know, forward at the same time, but when you duck out of them, they still exist. So that's one part of your life and you dip back into it when you're back there again. So I find that when I fly into a place, it suddenly all resets in my mind. I remember everybody's names. I kind of want to see the project becomes in focus.
- [01:15]
Ariel Oken
Welcome to Talkshop. I'm Ariel Oken, a New York based interior designer, writer and editor looking to bring a little bit of magic into our homes every day. After years as a writer and editor in the interiors world, I founded my own editorial site, Fenimore Lane, in 2020 and the TalkShop interview series was born. Each week I delve into the personal experiences of the top interior designers and tastemakers around the globe. This week we're heading back across the Pond to welcome one of the UK's leading interior designers and the creative force behind Oliver Laws in Mayfair, Guy Oliver. From growing up trawling antiques fairs in Scotland to leaving home at 17 to join the Royal Navy and ultimately becoming a celebrated designer and philanthropist, Guy has live lived a truly fascinating and inspiring life. He has transformed some of the world's most iconic hotels, including Claridge's, the Connaught and Shelburne and Dublin, and even redesigned the staterooms at number 10 Downing Street. But beyond luxury hotels and private estates, Guy's heart lies in craft and heritage. As creative director of the Turquoise Mountain foundation, he restores historic buildings in Afghanistan, trains local artisans, and brings these extraordinary crafts into his projects worldwide, including suites of the Connaught, where Afghan wood carving and miniature paintings create spaces of unmatched depth, beauty, and story. I truly learned so many lessons about both life and design from Guy on this episode, and I really hope you enjoy listening to it as much as.
- [02:41]
Interviewer
I enjoyed speaking with him.
- [02:46]
On the show. I'm so thrilled to have you on and to speak with you.
- [02:50]
Guy Oliver
Well, thank you. Happy to be here.
- [02:52]
Interviewer
To kick off the conversation, we always ask everyone who comes on, can you describe your style in three words or less?
- [03:00]
Guy Oliver
So in the inimitable words of. There was a British designer in the 1930s called Siri Maughan who worked US UK, which is a bit like my life. And she always said that appropriateness, appropriateness, appropriateness.
- [03:12]
Interviewer
Oh, I love. I love that.
- [03:15]
Guy Oliver
Which is appropriateness for the project, the client and the designer? I think so. But I think that kind of sums up the right way to the right approach to design.
- [03:23]
Interviewer
Absolutely. That's brilliant. I love that. And for those listening, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to this, like, where you are at this point in your career right now?
- [03:32]
Guy Oliver
I have a slightly strange route to becoming a designer, but.
- [03:38]
I started in the. In the. In the military. I was in the Navy for. When I was 16.
- [03:42]
Interviewer
I know. I was reading about that. I want to hear about how you pivoted from the Navy to design.
- [03:46]
Guy Oliver
It's a natural progression. But.
- [03:51]
A friend once told me that I. I had 10 lives, and I like to think about it as having 10 lives simultaneously.
- [04:01]
I kind of believe that I have so many things that interest me, and I really love what I do. I'm very fortunate in that. But I believe Einstein's idea that past, present and future exist simultaneously. Like that film, Everything, everywhere, all at once. So when you're working on multiple projects in different geographical locations at the same time, I tend to do the projects that I love. So I'm fortunate. We're a small outfit. I didn't become a designer to be a business owner. I became a designer because I love designing. So at one stage, the company grew, and then I found I was being an HR manager. And, you know, this person doesn't like that person or the cats died or whatever it is. And then you're kind of.
- [04:44]
Interviewer
I know it's like the least most. It's like the part that you don't sign up for when you.
- [04:50]
Guy Oliver
And you're. So. Since then, I outsourced the hr. I outsourced the accounts.
- [04:55]
Interviewer
Why?
- [04:56]
Guy Oliver
And then there's like a core team of six of us, and there's some freelancers. That come and go, but who we've worked with over the years on different types of projects, but we punch higher than our weight. So, you know, a small niche design company and I'm a sort of niche designer, but I. We typically work on high end residential and that could also include yachts and aircraft or niche hotel projects. For me that, you know, the types of hotels I've worked on are all. They all tell a story. They're not part of a group or a chain. They're. They're sort of individual identifiable properties within, you know, in a city or they have a character or something about them, which I like. Something that's got a wonderful story to play with. And my projects are vary from paid to voluntary work as well. So I love my job and it's literally taken me everywhere from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe and many countries in between.
- [05:47]
Interviewer
That's amazing.
- [05:49]
Guy Oliver
But I think if you believe, if you love what you do, everything aligns. You know, if you, if you're doing something for love and not for avarice, things align around you and people's. Your energy attracts, your frequency attracts people that are similar. And when I first started in the company, my business partner at the time used to call the clients the enemy because he was always in this combative relationship with the clients. You know, there'd be some drama or fight. I thought about it and I thought, well, they're not our enemy. They pay us to do what we love doing.
- [06:21]
Interviewer
Yeah, that's true.
- [06:22]
Guy Oliver
And that's the reason why we do it. Right. So for me, I could see what I wanted to do and I could see what I loved. And I came from quite humble origins, but, you know, I think I'm enthusiastic and I love all the elements of the work that I do. So things align to make that happen. And I'm fortunate that I can choose the projects that I mean purely by dint of time. I can't do more than say three or four projects at once. And if they're bigger projects, then that takes it down as well because it's one of the hotel projects I'm working on at the moment's been going on for two and a half years or run another six months and it gets quite all encompassing. But I like to keep a spread of different types of projects because they. That stimulates me and keeps me being creative in whichever projects I'm working on.
- [07:09]
Interviewer
So I bet. And you guys have worked on some really historic projects from Claridge's to the Shelbourn. I mean, you've done you worked at 10 Downing street and a myriad of private country houses and period townhouses. So you really, your work is so impressive and also really spans the gamut from, you know, residential to commercial to historic. And it's really amazing that you get to kind of span that all three of those categories.
- [07:37]
Guy Oliver
Yeah, I mean, I was so lucky that the clients I've met, I talk about frequency and resonance and the characters that you meet along the way and the people that you resonate, you jive with are the ones that have the most successful projects.
- [07:51]
Interviewer
Absolutely.
- [07:52]
Guy Oliver
And I did this beautiful yacht in 1937, 60 meter restoration. And she was the most wonderful project. But the client said make her look like she's been in continuous ownership since she was built, and she was built in 1937. And then he also described her when he first bought her as a loose association of rust held together with air, which she was.
- [08:16]
So we had to create this atmosphere of the period which looked authentic and continuous and it was like a whole story within a story. And I love detailing that. Every single element of the boat project was bespoke and designed and detailed. And it's seamless. When people go on board, they believe it was ever that, but it's actually, you know, it's what the French say, amise en scene. You know, it's a, it was a, it's an atmosphere, it's a, it's a creation.
- [08:40]
Interviewer
So interesting. I feel like the love of story, the love of the why behind design is sort of what drives you. And I know you grew up in Scotland trawling antiques fairs with your mother. What are some memories from those early experiences and how do you feel that sort of shaped your eye for design?
- [09:00]
Guy Oliver
I think dealing with antique dealers was quite, was the first part of it, which is dealing with these characters that you come across. So as a 6, 7, 9, 10 year old, I was taken to these fairs. You know, I was this geeky kid who, my mother told me about silver hallmarks and marks on porcelain and that sort of thing. So I would go through these junk shops and hone my mind to look for these marks or these anything. And I knew what was of value. So I would find like a dirty black and silver spoon and buy it for 50 pence, you know, in a flea market and then clean it up and sell it for £5. And as a, as a child, that's like a big motivator, right? So totally so. And then at one stage, my mother was an anti dealer. She had a very small shop in Scotland, but she also would do antique fairs, where you lay out your stall in a fair where people come and, you know. And she gave me a little corner of the stall, so I had this area, which was about 20% of her table top, you know, as it were. And I remember one Saturday, she got really mad with me because I took more money than she did on the Saturday.
- [10:08]
She was like. And she then charged me rent for the little section of the table. So I was like, okay, okay. All right.
- [10:16]
Interviewer
So that's so funny. And also, it just speaks to what crafted your initial love for design, which is the appreciation of quality and how that has become a thread in all of the work that you do, which is really beautiful.
- [10:30]
Guy Oliver
Thank you. I mean, for me, it is that it's something that's true luxury is something that's made. That's bespoke and something that's made for you. And it might not have a great big sign on it saying, this is a X brand object, but the person. The person who's commissioned it and has been on that journey, you know, if you have a wonderful. You have a box. It's just a box. But if, you know, it's been made by this Syrian artisan who had to leave the country because of the Assad regime and ended up living in a man in Jordan and setting up a workshop, and he was supporting a family and children, you know, the whole thing, and you know his name, and you've seen what he's done, then suddenly the box becomes valuable because of the story.
- [11:10]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [11:10]
Guy Oliver
And that's the thing. People want experiences. They don't want things. An object is a. Is a thing until there's a story around it. Did it belong to great Aunt Mary or, you know, where did it come from? What's the journey to acquire this thing? And so for me, that's. That's important. Again, it goes back to storytelling. And what has a romance to some people will leave some other people cold or whatever, but it's the things that resonate with the client and the designer that make a successful story.
- [11:38]
Interviewer
Absolutely. And that's what makes interior so personal. I think sometimes people forget that, you know, your home is supposed to be the ultimate reflection of you and your personal story. And so each item can have a ton of meaning, and it doesn't have to be something that's, you know, been brought right off the shelf. So at 17, you left home to join the Navy, which is such a wild career pivot.
- [12:01]
Guy Oliver
Yeah, it's quite funny. I have this duality in my life, and some People think I'm in a spy or something because they get these. I have all these friends in the military who are now quite senior, and then there's my design life. So I have. Yeah, I worked in. You know, we'll talk about this a bit later, but in Afghanistan, where we're restoring this district in central Kabul, and I met these characters like HR McMaster, who was this extraordinary American general who I think is a brilliant man, and he's at the Hoover Institute in the States. And he was such a gentle man and civilized and cultured, and he knew all about the country. And, you know, we talked. There was obviously the military side of life there. And then I was there in a non government organization helping, volunteering, restoring the city center in Kabul. And so that was quite an interesting environment for me because we were perceived as foreigners at first, as being part of the military, and then they realized that I was there restoring buildings.
- [12:57]
Interviewer
Wow. And I want to talk about that because the experience that you're speaking about is your work with the Turquoise Mountain foundation, where you went into Afghanistan and restored. You know, you worked with local artisans, you kept cultural traditions alive. Let's explain some of that for the listener, because it's such an interesting story.
- [13:16]
Guy Oliver
Yeah. So it's funny, when I go to Afghanistan, I feel like I must have had a past life there or something, because it feels so familiar to me. But I have this friend who's a medium, and she said, I see someone behind you, your spirit guide, who has scarred. And I always assumed it was some woman with a lot of scarves on, but actually I think it was somebody from a Pashtu or some tribal members. I don't know.
- [13:37]
Interviewer
But, wow, I believe in all that stuff. That is so cool.
- [13:43]
Guy Oliver
So, you know, so I. I found this place that resonated with me. And what happened? I had a friend who was an American Muslim living in Islamabad. Her husband worked for J. Walter Thompson, and she was on her own as a. As a sort of expatriate wife in Pakistan. And there were these kids coming out of Afghanistan who were injured or orphans, and they were washing up in the streets as street children in Islamabad. And so I've worked very closely with. With our King's office in philanthropic and charitable projects here. And she wanted to come to talk about helping, you know, finding a way that we could set up a project to teach these kids some kind of skills to support themselves. And I had a meeting. We talked about it. It didn't happen. And then the King introduced me to Rory Stewart, who is this amazing character. He's a sort of latter day explorer in the manner of Wilfred Thesiger or Robert Byron or any of those characters. And so Rory volunteered to go out to Afghanistan. And I had a client who's a very generous, private individual who underwrote part of that idea of going out to find a project to restore buildings and teach skills for restoring them. So we were teaching ultimately what ended up. And we set up a course structure there for accredited course structure so students could come in and learn skills in tile making, carving, miniature painting, calligraphy, jewelry and so on.
- [15:09]
Interviewer
Wow. Beautiful.
- [15:11]
Guy Oliver
It's a beautiful project. And again, it's about the story. And so my hotel work in London, probably I'm most well known for the Connaught Hotel in London. And 90% of the hotel is my design work. There's been some work from a couple of other designers in the house, in the food and beverage out.
- [15:30]
Interviewer
And it's so beautiful. It's like one of my most favorite hotels ever.
- [15:35]
Guy Oliver
It's such a. When I first went there, I wasn't sure about it because before we restored it in 2008, 9, it was kind of felt like an old people's home. And. And I was like, it's come to this, you know, And I was kind of like, what am I doing? And they. There was a lady who was the chief executive of the company at the time. The owners were the. What was called the Savoy Group, which doesn't exist anymore. And she asked me to look at it and said, There's 20 rooms. We want you to do 20 of the 96 rooms that were there at the time. It's now 115 rooms and suites because it was extended. But they asked me to do it and I looked at it and I said, this whole place needs restart.
- [16:16]
Interviewer
I mean, it's absolutely stunning.
- [16:19]
Guy Oliver
Well, now, now. Thank you. But then I was slightly scared and I was also a bit offended because I'd worked at Claridge's first, and that was my first love.
- [16:28]
Interviewer
Oh my God, that's so funny.
- [16:29]
Guy Oliver
You've got the art deco grandeur of Claridge's and then the common is this descript. Basically a sort of. It's a. It's like. Feels like a private townhouse in London.
- [16:38]
Interviewer
Yeah, it does.
- [16:40]
Guy Oliver
And it's got this amazing character, but it's also discreet, under the radar. So although you have characters who stay there, like, you know, Ralph Lauren or Steven Spielberg or any of those characters who stay there, you don't notice because it's discreet. Whereas Claridge's is about art deco and in show, and there's, you know, events and junkets and launching the Christmas Tree and all those things with different designers and.
- [17:00]
Interviewer
And the Christmas Tree is so beautiful. I mean, they're two of the most iconic hotels in London.
- [17:06]
Guy Oliver
Yeah, it's got such an identity that people, I think, want to be there.
- [17:11]
Ariel Oken
Right.
- [17:11]
Interviewer
How did you approach blending the work that you do with the Turquoise Mountain foundation into these projects? Because I know the Princess Suite right. At the Con Art, which was built with a lot of the artisans in Afghanistan. How did that come about?
- [17:29]
Guy Oliver
Well, there's actually two suites, so the first one is the Prince's Lodge. So at the time, there was a chief executive of the group, and I was out in Afghanistan keeping an eye on where my client's money was being spent on restoring these. Yes. Like, you know, he gave a very generous donation, and it was on unencumbered funds, but he was generous for a period of five years. And because of that, there was match funding from different government agencies. And then the project grew. And at the time I was starting to work as lead designer on the Con orbs, I was out in Afghanistan as well. And I went to this historic district in the middle of Kabul in the summer. It was baking hot, and we came across this small wooden house, which is now known as the Peacock House. It'd been part of something called the Peacock palace, which was a district where Murad Khani is. In the middle of Kabul was a little enclave. It's a Shia community and a Sunni majority, and they were the bodyguard for the king. And so this house had. There's all these beautifully carved houses which were all connected to the royal palace. What happened was in 1974, when the Soviet Union invaded, there's no need for a bodyguard for the king, because there's no king.
- [18:39]
Interviewer
Right, Right. It's amazing that it stayed intact.
- [18:43]
Guy Oliver
Well, it became. It stayed intact in much the same way that somewhere like Charleston and South Carolina came intact, it remained intact because of poverty. So, you know, historic buildings, when people have a lot of money, they alter them and they change them and they, quote, unquote, improve them and change the nature and character of them, but in a different way. You know, Murad Khani, which was this heritage district, and suddenly these guys are unemployed, and also they're, you know, they're kind of like this subculture within a bigger culture that doesn't particularly like like them. So they keep a low profile, and the houses run into disrepair, but they're still There somehow. And, you know, when Rory and I first went out to Afghanistan, we found this district, and there was these beautiful buildings, but they were very much down on their uppers, as we would say. And we kind of walked around and then met the community and took leases on properties on each corner of the district.
- [19:41]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [19:42]
Guy Oliver
There was a Soviet master plan to build a road. It's next to the Kabul River. They wanted to build a road by the riverside and knock down the Shia shrines and these heritage buildings, these crazy foreigners came in, and we leased these buildings.
- [19:56]
Interviewer
This is like a movie. I mean, I know you said this at the beginning, but you live, like, 10 lives at once.
- [20:02]
Guy Oliver
I firmly believe that you're living in parallel dimensions. So if the way I describe it is, if you're doing a project in Charleston, you're doing one in. In Kabul, you're working on a project in Tokyo. Those places exist temporary. They're running, you know, forward at the same time, but when you duck out of them, they still exist. So that's one part of your life, and you dip back into it when you're back there again. So I find that when I fly into a place, it suddenly all resets in my mind. I remember everybody's names. I kind of want to see the project becomes in focus.
- [20:39]
Interviewer
That's so fascinating. I mean, it also helps weave so much of what you've done and know into every project, because it helps you thread such a unique story to whatever it is that you're working on at the time.
- [20:52]
Guy Oliver
Well, for me, again, it goes back to that thing. If you enjoy it and you become immersed in it, and it's not for an avaricious reason, you are doing that. You're drawing things align. The first museum project I ever did, the first exhibition I ever did, was at the Louvre Museum in Paris.
- [21:08]
Interviewer
Wow.
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Guy Oliver
And so I had this bizarre situation where I met this man who was a photographer, and he wanted an exhibition in London, which I managed to organize for him. And then he said he wanted one in Paris in a museum. And, well, what's the first museum that comes to mind? Right. The Loop. So I find myself thinking about the Loop, and I'm like, how am I going to get there? And I thought, the French are not going to want this unknown photographer as work.
- [21:34]
So I. I was working on a project in Malaysia, and there was a sign there with Forbes magazine. It says, Forbes magazine, Top 500 Chief Executives Conference. So with my charity work, I'd met and know Christopher Forbes.
- [21:47]
Interviewer
Okay.
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Guy Oliver
I saw this sign at the Air, and I Thought, how weird. You know, he's this. There's this thing. So I text him, I said, are you in Kuala Lumpur at the moment? And he goes, yeah, I'm here for this conference. I said, well, I'm here for a project. And he said, come for lunch tomorrow. I go into this room, I sit down, and on my left is Christopher Forbes, and on my right is a man called Henri Loret. And guess what Henri Loret does for a living? He is the president of the Louvre Museum. Was the president of the Louvre Museum. That was a week after my thoughts about this idea.
- [22:19]
Interviewer
Oh, my God, isn't that so crazy?
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Guy Oliver
Yeah, totally nuts.
- [22:23]
Interviewer
The universe really. I believe this too. Like, the universe absorbs what you're putting out into it and it will bring it back to you.
- [22:31]
Guy Oliver
Yeah. And I was. This has happened many, many times. And it's almost like a lazy energy. It's not. If you grasp at something, it's like grabbing a jelly in your hands. It will squeeze out of your hands.
- [22:41]
Interviewer
Yeah.
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Guy Oliver
If you are trying to nail jelly to a tree, it's impossible. You can't do it.
- [22:46]
Interviewer
I love that.
- [22:47]
Guy Oliver
But if you think about it and you get excited and it, you know, you think, oh, this is going to happen. It's. It starts snowballing. Anyway, he says. I said to him, look, do you know any museums that maybe would consider taking an exhibition? You know, I'm sure, you know, we fund it, we're talking about it. He said. He said, no, come to my office in Paris next weekend. Anyway, a week later, I didn't tell the client this, and then I went to Paris and I said, you know, could we consider doing this? And he said. He said, yeah, if you follow the rules that we have and this and that, you know. Anyway, so literally nine months later, we opened this exhibition at the Louvre that is wild. And it was. What was so exciting about it was also I was commissioning music, I was designing the exhibition galleries, I was laying out the selection of the art and, you know, and it was just snowballed into this wonderful series of experiences. You know, I was thinking, oh, we need to write music for this exhibition and we need to find the composer and we need to do this and that. And it grew.
- [23:49]
Interviewer
It's such a different way of, like, utilizing your design muscle in a thoughtful way.
- [23:55]
Guy Oliver
I'd never thought about being an exhibition designer, but of course, it's the same as interior design and decoration. And when I started out, I worked in, you know, shop windows and parties and things, which is a great way to Express your design, because if it's great, you can take a picture. If it's terrible, it's gone in three days.
- [24:14]
Interviewer
That's so true.
- [24:15]
Guy Oliver
But yeah, I think again, it goes back to that point of view about love. And if you love it and you do it for that reason, the frequency is correct and things align.
- [24:26]
Interviewer
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And I think that's just like such a fabulous life lesson, too. Is there a favorite element about the design process for you?
- [24:36]
Guy Oliver
The first part of the design process for me is also space planning. So famously, the beautiful yacht that I did, which is called Melanie, and she's loved and beloved by many people now, but I did 17 layouts.
- [24:49]
Interviewer
Oh, my God.
- [24:50]
Guy Oliver
For the main Salute Saloon. And I was thinking, what the hell? And then another. And it was because in this small space on a yacht, everything has to be anchored down to the deck.
- [25:01]
Interviewer
Right.
- [25:02]
Guy Oliver
And, you know, invisibly fixed. So. But it should look like all the furniture is movable and in the house and it, you know, it needs to feel. So the layering of all of those elements. The side table has to be a place where you're going to put your drink down. And, you know, probably slightly, you know, they would pull out slides for glasses. And there's a. There had to be a games table in there because the family played. Played games, cards and backgammon and so on. So there needed to be an area for seating that there was a fireplace, there was a piano, there was a bar, there was, you know, all these layers all within a small space. And. And by the way, we need to sit 12 people comfortably.
- [25:38]
Interviewer
Oh, my God.
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Guy Oliver
And you're like, what the hell?
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Interviewer
I mean, talk about the ultimate exercise in space planning.
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Guy Oliver
Yeah. And also make it look like it's layered over time and it's evolved, you know, everything. So it was. Yeah, it was a quite a stress. You know, when I got to the 17th plan, I was like, what are we doing? Never done this before. Anyway, we got there and the result was brilliant. Then we had to mock everything up in foam, one to one models of everything so that you could lay it out. And I don't know if you've ever seen a yacht project before, but basically there's. If it's a restoration, the hull is in a shipyard and it's. They're doing the systems and the pipework and the electrics and is laid in, in the sides of the hull. In another parallel project is the interiors. And they build a one to one model of the yacht in plywood. And you Build every element of the interior. So you're building everything first and then you have to make it all fit in the warehouse in the interior section and then you have to dismantle it and then bring it to the shipyard and install it after the system. And we had to do all of this within a two year time frame, which we did, but it was like breakneck pace, I'm sure. And that was, you know, detailing every little thing from the teaspoons to, you know, the state rooms and everything. And it was.
- [26:51]
Interviewer
This sounds like the coolest project ever.
- [26:53]
Guy Oliver
Yeah, it was amazing. And the. What was amazing about it also was the client was incredibly kind and at the end of the project he said, would you like to borrow the boat? Would you like a five day trip? You know, and it was the most generous gift I've ever had and it was, it was really kind and if it ever happens again, I would, you know, what I did was of course I invited people who I were friends that I owed things to and it was a short, noted trip, but it wasn't something I was expecting, but it was incredibly kind and.
- [27:21]
Interviewer
Yeah, and what an amazing experience.
- [27:24]
Guy Oliver
Yeah, yeah, it was really cool.
- [27:26]
Interviewer
What do you think the best advice for designing interiors you've ever received was?
- [27:32]
Guy Oliver
Listen to the class.
- [27:34]
Interviewer
Yep.
- [27:35]
Guy Oliver
There are some designers that are prescriptive who have a look and you know, there's a look with, you know, a thin piece of colored cloth and three vases down the middle of a table and three pillows, whatever it is. And it's like that's in blah blah, interior by so and so, you know, which of course is also marketable. And it's nice for, you know, people can market that idea because it's like, oh, that's their look. But right. For me, the same both house, apartment, office, whatever, in the same building with a different client would be different because you have to listen to them and also reflect their personality and character. And you know, and some people have more of a personality than others. I worked for a lovely guy called, I can mention his name, Gordon Elliott. He's a TV presenter. He, you know, he did the Paula Dean show and various other things in the States. He's Australian guy.
- [28:26]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [28:26]
Guy Oliver
And we, we became friends. But I did a project for him upstate New York and, and he had a gnu head and a canoe and these man and all these things. And we had, it was, his personality was very big. So for making his man cave, his library, his place where he lived, that was fun because you had all these big objects to play with. And we had an upside down canoe in the middle of the library on the ceiling.
- [28:54]
Interviewer
But that's what makes your work so fascinating and interesting. It's because you really do dive so deep into the personal stories of everyone. And that's why every project looks so different and so bespoke.
- [29:05]
Guy Oliver
You know, for me, that's the interesting part again, you know, what is the story they're trying to tell. And you know, in London, it's the sort of nexus of the world, I think. You know, within 500 meters of my office, you have every head of state, every celebrity, every sports person passes through London at some stage, you know, in the year or in two years or five years or whatever. And you can literally go out the front door of my office and you could run into Bill Clinton or you could run into, you know, Melanie Griffith or any of, you know, you literally could serious. That random, you know, the. And you'll see someone in double take and say, is that, you know, and those people, you know, you can have an encounter with them. And that means you might be working on a project in Tokyo or it might lead to something else. And so for me, it's about being open to all of that and listening to people and then, you know, getting excited about things that they want to do. And so for me, that's all part of the fun of this job.
- [30:05]
Interviewer
It's so cool. Every time you get a new project, you get to dive into a whole new world and you get to do research on something you might not know about prior and you get to meet a whole new group of people. And it's just when you love what you do, and I think it's applicable to any career, not just what we do, but when you love what you do, it doesn't really feel like work. And so you don't.
- [30:25]
Guy Oliver
And you follow things that excite you. So, for example, the Shelburne in Dublin, which is where the Irish constitution was drafted in 1921. Grandfather was born in Dublin in 1921. There's been this Irish theme through my life, that Connaught is an Irish province. You know, bread came through the Irish. Part of my history came through. And you know, there's the constitution being drafted there. And I did a bar there which had this. I had a wonderful artist friend who recently passed called Paul Slater. The last big project we did together was this bar. It has a mural with all these characters from Irish fiction, literature, historical figures.
- [30:59]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [30:59]
Guy Oliver
Everyone from Angelica Houston to John Wayne in the Quiet man and you know, Arthur Guinness, that's amazing. And it's called the 1824 Bar, and it's on the mezzanine on the main staircase. And. And then the other time, the other thing we got to do was commission a series of stained glass windows on the main stairs with all the. The 32 counties of the whole of the island of Ireland.
- [31:21]
Interviewer
That is so cool.
- [31:23]
Guy Oliver
And there's a. I was reading the history of the hotel, and President Hyde, who is the first president of the Irish Free State, was looking out of the window of the Shelburne Hotel in 1916 and writes in his diary, who are these Egypts causing a ruckus on the square? And it's the 1916 Easter uprising. And he's writing this description in his diary. And so I went to the National Gallery of Ireland, and I managed to. It took me two and a half years of determination convincing the family of the artist and the gallery to get a licensed copy of the portrait of President Hyde. And he is looking out the window, the same window he looked out.
- [31:56]
Interviewer
That is so cool.
- [31:59]
Guy Oliver
And people may or may not notice that when they're in the Lord Mayor's Lounge, which is the, you know, the tea room at the. At the Shelburne. But for me, that was a nice little thread.
- [32:07]
Interviewer
I mean, that is the coolest little detail that means so much when you know, the backstory behind it and how it was woven in so thoughtfully.
- [32:16]
Guy Oliver
Yeah. And Paul Henry, the artist, was the. Married to the housekeeper at the shelburn in the 1920s. And there was. There are copies of his paintings there as well. And when you know that story, it layers a story through the hotel, which makes it unique. It's not just a cookie cutter hotel. It's. It's got real personality. And you can literally be in the lobby of the Shelburne at Christmas and run into Bono or Gabriel Byrne or Prince, you know, whoever. And they're all there. Plus there are the farmers who are up from Limerick taking the wife out for a glass of champagne. And it's a special time. And. And there's students who've just graduated from Trinity, and they're all in the middle of this hotel, and they all in the lobby. And it's got this. It's kind of the place where Dublin goes to celebrate because it's the last grand hotel in Ireland.
- [33:02]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [33:03]
Guy Oliver
And it's also right next to St Stephen's Green, which is like being next to Central Park. And, you know, these personalities and characters all cross and mingle and mix in the Shelburne. And the reason Why I got invited to work on the Shelburn was because the then owner used to stay at the Connelly.
- [33:17]
Interviewer
Oh, my God, it's so full circle. I feel like all these things in your life have happened for a reason. It's so cool.
- [33:24]
Guy Oliver
Yeah. I still have to work out exactly what the reason is yet, but.
- [33:30]
I'll get there eventually. I'll find. I'll find the answer.
- [33:33]
Interviewer
Well, what do you think your home says about you?
- [33:36]
Guy Oliver
Good question. So for me, I guess it says the carpenter's door is always broken.
- [33:43]
Interviewer
I know I feel that way about myself.
- [33:48]
Guy Oliver
And when it gets to me, I kind of. I'm not really materialistic. I mean, I know that sounds odd talking to someone who's an interior designer, but I exercise my materialism vicariously through my clients. So I'm, you know, they have a collection of things, wonderful paintings, or they have a wonderful collection of porcelain or whatever it is, and you create this space around it and it's their stage set, it's where they are and it shows their character and personality and they're able to inhabit that space with those things that they own. But as a result, I've got no particular attachment to things. Things in my house have a memory or there's a painting that somebody's painted that is a friend or. You know, when I was working in Tokyo, I bought this mad little temple which I managed to carry back in my hand luggage.
- [34:34]
Interviewer
That's so cool.
- [34:36]
Guy Oliver
It was in first class. I was in the back.
- [34:39]
Interviewer
Well, let's get into a little bit about your shop. My store, We've been talking about this in every episode and you so graciously curated a very cool wish list and storefront. Is there anything in there that you're particularly excited about or something that. That means something special to you?
- [34:59]
Guy Oliver
I think the continuity item in there is the RM Williams boots, which.
- [35:04]
Interviewer
Yes, I saw them. They're so cool.
- [35:08]
Guy Oliver
So they've always. I used to live. When I was living in Manhattan, I lived on 16th between 5th and 6th and. And there was a place called Dave's Store. And it was before Carhartt became cool. And this aesthetic I had, I picked up was from Dave's store.
- [35:25]
Interviewer
Oh, my God, that's amazing.
- [35:26]
Guy Oliver
I don't know if it still exists. I'm sure it does. And I kind of like that, you know. You know, my father was eternally sort of slightly embarrassed. What does your son do? He's an interior designer.
- [35:39]
So I guess, you know, this is policeman. Rugby playing policeman. I'm a rugby playing Designer. But, you know, there was this. This element of that. And so I guess. I guess I had this sort of counter culture of masculine clothing and. Which kind of is, you know, pivoted my design life, you know, because at one stage, you know, I had a disastrous relationship, and someone described me as sort of organizing cushions and lampshades, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- [36:05]
Interviewer
Not what you do.
- [36:07]
Guy Oliver
So, not what I do.
- [36:08]
Interviewer
And I feel like people don't really understand what designers do, and so they think that's what it is, but they have no understanding of the level of attention to detail and the way people are bringing a story with a through line from concept to install.
- [36:22]
Guy Oliver
And, well, the good design goes unnoticed because, you know, I did a restaurant at Cloud's, and we spent £5 million, and we installed it in. In less than a year, six months. So we had a burn rate of a million a month to get this restaurant open.
- [36:41]
Interviewer
That is so wild.
- [36:42]
Guy Oliver
Nuts, Right? Okay. And they're doing this thing and delivering, and I'm working night and day, detailing and making metal details, marble details, carpet details, furniture details, all of those things, and plaster details and artists and, you know, you know, all of these layers that go in the restaurant. And after I finished this, this friend of mine who is a sort of. He works in a charity, a design charity, comes in, and she said, what did you do here?
- [37:06]
Interviewer
Here? Oh, my God.
- [37:07]
Guy Oliver
And I was like, are you kidding me?
- [37:09]
Interviewer
I kind of like, what didn't I do here?
- [37:12]
Guy Oliver
And. But then I turned, I thought about it, and I thought, this is actually a backhanded compliment, because she thinks it's always been here, and she thinks it's always looked like this. So that, in a way, makes it mean that it's so, like I said, good design often goes unnoticed because they assume it was ever thus.
- [37:28]
Interviewer
And so that's so right. And also, I think when something feels like it's been there forever, you've done your job because. Because it's not screaming at you, and you've sort of created an environment. I mean, it's like the boat, right? Like, you've created something that feels like whether it was installed in a year or not, it feels like it's been there for 50 years, which is really.
- [37:49]
Guy Oliver
Really hard to do, and it feels authentic. And I think that's good. If you can create that identity, that atmosphere, you've won.
- [38:01]
That takes an enlightened and trusting client and that, you know, and somebody who's can, you know, also take some. A designer who's Committed to the project in a way. And it does take a lot of your energy and your personality. And when I finished Pharah at Claridge's, the restaurant, one of my best friends that I grew up with is a metal worker. And he. He was involved with some details in the project, but then he died at the end of the project. And because he was sick, and he didn't tell me how sick he was. And on the last day of the. I said, I'll come and see. And, you know, after we finished the install, and he was tired, and he really, you know, he went back home and he. He passed. And I was like, how did I not know. Know that he was being ill? And he was so committed. And so for me, those interiors literally are so personal to me. Every design that I do, every project that I do, has an, you know, there's. It's, again, the story of that project and the journey of that project, and he wanted to make sure that he completed what he committed to do.
- [39:04]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:04]
Guy Oliver
And, you know, and I love him for that. And that was amazing. But it was also, losing that friend was such a. You know, the whole thing was this investment of your personality and your. Your time into a project. And. Yeah, he didn't want to let me down, and he didn't. He surpassed it. So, you know, those things, you know, you get these, you know, there's laughter and tears and an emotional roller coaster. Often involved with projects because you're dealing with, you know, person. Individual characters and personalities and all their frailties and all those things. So. Yeah.
- [39:35]
Interviewer
I'm just so blown away by your life story. I mean, it's wild. You've. You have lived so many different lives simultaneously. And also, like, you didn't go to school for design.
- [39:47]
Guy Oliver
No.
- [39:48]
Interviewer
I mean, it's fascinating. It's so cool.
- [39:52]
Guy Oliver
I kind of learned on the job. I think that was my. I was lucky with that.
- [39:56]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [39:57]
Guy Oliver
And I was. I. Because I loved it. I'd read around the project and go to museums and houses and absorb things. And even when I was in the Navy, there was something in my. That was telling me, you know, I didn't study for my navigation exams and my gunnery exams. I just. I would always just pass. But when we arrived in Antarctica or we arrived in, you know, South America or in. I would go straight ashore and start looking at the architecture and the buildings and places.
- [40:23]
Interviewer
Yeah, you love it.
- [40:25]
Guy Oliver
Yeah. And you absorb all those elements of culture and how people live and what makes life comfortable in Cairo or, you know, it might Be the way they have those beautiful tea trays which have got a little ring at the top and they, they swing through the restauran and there's this one. And you know, these little details and you. When you layer them into other spaces in other cultures, it becomes a kind of informed dialogue of your. The prism of your life experience, you know, the things that you love. So.
- [40:53]
Interviewer
Wow, that's really beautiful. I'm so blown away by your story. I'm so glad that you came on. Let's do our take 10. This is what we do at the end of every episode. So we do our rapid fire questions and there's some that I'm really excited to hear your answer because you've traveled all over the world. So what is your favorite food?
- [41:11]
Guy Oliver
Steak frite.
- [41:12]
Interviewer
Great choice.
- [41:15]
Favorite drink?
- [41:16]
Guy Oliver
I didn't drink so much anymore, but I used to love whiskey sour.
- [41:19]
Interviewer
Classic.
- [41:21]
Favorite film.
- [41:22]
Guy Oliver
So I thought about this. But. So I love Inception. But also meet Joe Black and weirdly, Seven Years in Tibet, which is slightly odd with Brad Pitt's strange German accent, but I think they're all beautifully made for different reasons. Reasons.
- [41:36]
Interviewer
Yeah, they are. I'm very excited to ask you this question because you've been everywhere. Favorite hotel?
- [41:41]
Guy Oliver
Well, I have to say the Connaught. But also I have. There's two others. I love the hotel cost in Paris. You know, I think there was beautiful. And I love that atrium in the middle and the swimming pool there is amazing. And the details. And you don't mind being in these small rooms because it's so beautifully layered.
- [42:00]
Interviewer
Yeah, it's such a chic hotel.
- [42:02]
Guy Oliver
Yeah, it is. And then New York, the Carla, because of the stories around it, Bemelman's Bar and all that. And then in Los Angeles, Chateau Marmont. Although it needs some love.
- [42:15]
Interviewer
They need you.
- [42:16]
Guy Oliver
Yeah, it's the one I've always wanted to do, to be honest. And, yeah, it's, you know, ironically, I was working with Andre Balad at the time. It almost happened but didn't yet, so.
- [42:27]
Interviewer
Well, we're putting it out into the universe. It's going to come back and boomerang you in a couple months.
- [42:34]
Favorite city?
- [42:35]
Guy Oliver
Buenos Aires.
- [42:36]
Interviewer
I've never been there. My husband and I really must go.
- [42:39]
Guy Oliver
Yeah, you have to go. It's a cross between Barcelona and Paris.
- [42:43]
Interviewer
Yes, I've heard. It's just so such a great place to visit and so much history. And the food.
- [42:49]
Guy Oliver
Oh, it's incredible. The food's amazing. Steak, fruit, and there's red wine and then there's this amazing architecture. So the Argentina was the fifth economy in the world in 1905, and.
- [43:02]
They thought, oh, we'll get the Ecole de Beaux Arts to design our buildings. It's going to be like Paris here. And the French architects didn't come to Buenos Aires. They sent the design and then the local architect changed details, so. Because what's the money from in Argentina? Beef. So the capitals of the columns are like cow's heads and things like that.
- [43:20]
Interviewer
It's like, oh, my God, that's so cool.
- [43:22]
Guy Oliver
They've adapted it to the local language and it's, you know, you're right across on the River Plate and it's beautiful. It's just the most incredible atmosphere and I would highly recommend it. And I'd also recommend going to Patagonia and of kind, go down to Bariloche. And if you need tips about where to go, I'll tell you.
- [43:39]
Interviewer
But yes, I may. I may hit you up for that. Honestly.
- [43:42]
Guy Oliver
Argentina, definitely in Buenos Aires, for sure.
- [43:45]
Interviewer
So, yeah, that's like a dream trip on my bucket list when my kids are out of school.
- [43:52]
Favorite bedding? We always love to ask designers this.
- [43:56]
Guy Oliver
This is a difficult one. So Swan's island blankets. Oh, they're cool. I think they make beautiful things. The colors, like sort of grays and these wonderful indigo colors and things on their blankets and things. And then once Milano, so a friend's wife helped set that up. And they have some beautiful linens and things. So on high days and holidays, I roll out the ones.
- [44:20]
Interviewer
Yes, we cherish the ones that. Exactly. Tea or coffee? And how do you take it?
- [44:26]
Guy Oliver
So I used to be a big coffee drinker, but I've changed. So in the morning, first thing I do is have green tea. And one of my very close friends introduced me to matcha tea, and I love that as well. So that's kind of nice.
- [44:39]
Interviewer
Favorite playlist or music to listen to.
- [44:43]
Guy Oliver
So I oscillate between popular music and. I love movie music. And I have a friend who has a music agency in la, and he has these concerts with these film writers and so, you know, so Hans Zimmer, Alan Silvestri, who wrote the music for Forest Karl.
- [44:58]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [44:58]
Guy Oliver
Alexandre Desplat as well. He's got an incredible talent. And then on the popular side, from my time in France, Johnny Halliday. Noise noir. I love that. Steve Winwood, Sam Mumber, James Blunt. Savage Garden. There's one of this. There's a song in that, which is I'd fly you to the moon and back.
- [45:15]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [45:16]
Guy Oliver
Which is My level of romance, I mean, that's my way, I think about it. I would fly you to the moon and back if I love you.
- [45:23]
Interviewer
I love that.
- [45:25]
Guy Oliver
So. And Cesarea Vora, I went through a period of loving her voice. She's got this incredible kind of resonant voice, this deep sort of wonderful voice. Favorite weekend activity, jetpack training with Gravity Industries.
- [45:39]
Interviewer
That is so cool.
- [45:42]
Guy Oliver
Yeah, they do courses in flying jetpacks, so.
- [45:46]
Interviewer
Oh, my God. Is it scary?
- [45:50]
Guy Oliver
No, I think the idea of having two jets strapped to your hand is a slightly scary. In case it goes. There's so much maneuver from that.
- [45:58]
Interviewer
So cool, though.
- [45:59]
Guy Oliver
No, but it's the closest thing to being flying on your own.
- [46:04]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [46:04]
Guy Oliver
But, yeah, I love anything to do with the air.
- [46:07]
Interviewer
And our last question, which I always love to ask everyone. Favorite design book.
- [46:11]
Guy Oliver
So this changes all the time, but there is a beautiful book that's just come out recently, which is to do with texture, layering, pattern, and food.
- [46:21]
Interviewer
Oh, interesting.
- [46:22]
Guy Oliver
And. And it's by a lady called Antoinette Poisson, so she's also fabrics, so a year in the French style. And it's just beautifully detailed. The book, I mean, it goes through each season, and then there's different photographs of different geographical locations and then the style of the detailing of the house. So, you know, anything for me? I was asked to help a friend with a domain, you know, as this is a sort of friend friends project. And it's in the. This area of France, near Narbonne, which has got salt marshes outside and these pine trees. And it's quite a harsh environment because it gets very hot in the summer. But the book reminded me of that place. And again, another story. But it's a beautifully detailed book. It would be like the perfect Christmas gift for someone who loves design. I think so.
- [47:12]
Interviewer
Oh, wow. I'm gonna get it for myself.
- [47:14]
Guy Oliver
Oh, you have to. It's so beautiful. And I'm working on a book about Afghanistan interiors, weirdly, with my friend. Wow. Kennedy. And she and I were going through books and we. We. That we liked, and we liked the cabana books, you know, the. Those.
- [47:29]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [47:29]
Guy Oliver
The details. And then I said, I've just found this amazing book which you just, you know, have to get. And it's just beautifully. Beautifully detailed. So. And I think it's a great. A great gift. And it's like design pornography, you know, you want to look through it.
- [47:43]
Interviewer
Oh, my God. I'm going to order it right after this. I'm so excited. This is been such a delight. Thank you so much for Joining me, I really. I. I learned so much and I. I can't wait to dive into these things that you've told me about, like this book. I'm so excited. A final few words. What are you working on right now? Are there any new projects you can talk about?
- [48:04]
Guy Oliver
Yeah, I'm doing. So we're the hotel in Italy, which is opening next June, Borgo Pignano, Florence. And that is. Is the sister hotel to an existing hotel in Volterra, near San Germano, called Borgo Pignano.
- [48:19]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [48:20]
Guy Oliver
I just finished 88 rooms and suites at the Connaught, which was the most strange experience because we did five at a time and nobody noticed that we were there. We were so discreet. So when it came to an end, and it came to an end about a month ago, and I hung the last painting. We hung the last painting on the wall and I was like, oh, that's. We're finished.
- [48:37]
Interviewer
Oh, my God. It's probably so sad at the end because it's such a part of your life for so long.
- [48:44]
Guy Oliver
And again, assume that everything is the same seamless sort of situation where everything is the magical world of the Conor or the magical world of Claridges, that everything just remains preserved like that the whole way. But, you know, there's a team of people behind it. So. And there's another boat project coming up. Is I. You know, I love that kind of, you know, covers all my bases, really, because it's. It's a nautical project and designing space and designing and playing with, you know, it's a big toy, you know, wonderful old yacht. It's a wonderful thing to have the opportunity to work on. So.
- [49:17]
Interviewer
Yeah, that's so cool.
- [49:19]
Guy Oliver
And there's some voluntary stuff as well. So, you know, I'm still doing. I still do some bits and pieces where I'm trying to get a historic building in central London restored as an art center and a museum. And I'm involved with another historical maritime project which I can't name, but it's kind of cool.
- [49:35]
Interviewer
I love that you have your hand in different categories because it probably. They all connect in some way, shape or form. And so you're, you know, as you're learning about one, you layer it into another and it must be so fascinating.
- [49:47]
Guy Oliver
Well, I mean, I kind of woke up to the Irish connection when, you know, the thread with. I hadn't even thought about the Connaught being the Connaught because it's an Irish title and an Irish province. And then when the Shelburne came along, I'm designing a window with the four provinces of Ireland, which are Ulster, Leinster, and. Yeah. And. And I was like, oh, hang on. I've been working as a con art for seven years. And then I'm doing the shelf, and then. So this is Irish province. And, you know, I'm kind of big, you know, so the something is guiding together. Yeah, Something's been the guiding thread through my life.
- [50:23]
Interviewer
The last question we always ask everyone is, what advice do you have for someone looking to define their own interior style?
- [50:30]
Guy Oliver
Don't be scared to express your personality because you. You have to be. Have that confidence. And, you know, some people are kind of embarrassed about the past, so they think they have to listen to their friends or, you know, and then they get blown around with the wind. You know, it's like being tumble. You're tumbleweed if you do that.
- [50:49]
You've got to have conviction and confidence that what you're doing is. Is something that you want and love and, you know. Yeah, you're different to everyone else. Your life experience is different to everyone else. There's no way you could replicate. I teach sometimes at design school, and this came up to me, and she said, tell me every step of your journey. And I'm like, I can't tell you every step of my journey. And she's like, I need to create the. Create the situation where I can do this, this and this. And I'm like, all I can tell you is focus on what you want to do and love it and follow your, you know, follow that star. Yeah, don't. Don't. Don't try and mimic anyone. Don't listen to any other people who are trying.
- [51:26]
Interviewer
It's so true, though. It's such good life advice. Even. Even, you know, forget career advice, but life advice that, like, when you are true to yourself, good things come from that and you live the most authentic life being you.
- [51:39]
Guy Oliver
And I had to learn that the hard way, you know, I definitely learned that the hard way, you know?
- [51:43]
Interviewer
Yeah, I think we all do. I think it's part of growing up. It's like learning how to get comfortable with being you, you know?
- [51:50]
Guy Oliver
Right. Yeah, that's true. And I think I've been very fortunate in the characters and the people. You know that song in Hamilton, which says, in the. Being in the room where it happens happens.
- [52:00]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [52:01]
Guy Oliver
I've been in the room where it happens as an observer and as a. As a participant. And you also, you know, and I come away and I pinch myself and say, did I really just talk to so and so about that. Yeah.
- [52:14]
And did that really happen? And it did. It's also not important. You know, my dad's bit of advice to me was, what happens if your life exceeds your expectations? And he said, keep your mouth shut.
- [52:26]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [52:27]
Guy Oliver
So, you know, don't, you know, people think you're a fantasist or you're. You're trying to show off or whatever. So it's, it's also about learning to be integral and discreet about things to.
- [52:37]
Interviewer
You know, that's really good advice, too. You really do need to write a book. I'm telling you, a therapy book. No, I'm putting that into the world for you. And it will come find you that you are going to write a book because you have to. To Guy. Thank you so much for coming on. This was truly such a delight. I had so much fun talking with you.
- [52:56]
Guy Oliver
Thank you. I really appreciate it.
- [52:59]
Ariel Oken
Thanks again to my guest today for joining me and to shop my for sponsoring this season of Talk Shop. Head to the Show Notes to create.
- [53:05]
Interviewer
Your free shopper account and explore the.
- [53:07]
Ariel Oken
Curated storefronts from this season's designers. We'll be back next week with more thoughtful discussions and amazing guests. Follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify and YouTube, so you never miss an episode. And of course, follow me at Arielle Okun. See you next week.