Talkin’ Cowboys: Failing Grades Mean Unfinished Business

Summary

Talkin' Cowboys: Failing Grades Mean Unfinished Business

Date: January 20, 2026
Hosts: Kyle Yeomans, Patrik Walker, Josh Rodriguez, Tommy Yarish (filling in for Isaiah Stanback)
Produced by: DallasCowboys.com, Dallas Cowboys Football Club

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Episode Overview

In this offseason episode of Talkin' Cowboys, the crew brings together their trademark blend of film-room analysis and barbershop banter—this time with a frank, critical assessment of the Cowboys' 2025 defensive struggles. The main focus: assigning season grades to each defensive position group, evaluating the sweeping search for a new defensive coordinator, and dismissing any sugarcoating about what needs to improve if Dallas is to compete for a Super Bowl. Noteworthy humor and sharp fan engagement are woven throughout.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Offseason Vibes and Playoff “Hate Watch”

• The crew opens with lighthearted banter about playoff rivals—especially satisfaction at the struggles of the Eagles and 49ers.
• Wild conspiracy theories about the San Francisco 49ers' injury problems and the alleged impact of a nearby power plant spark plenty of laughs.
  • Quote:
    • "You're not going to tell me that a multi billion dollar stadium was built within this proximity of a power plant and no studies were done prior. Like nobody thought twice."
      — Kyle Yeomans (05:19)

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2. Cowboys Defensive Coordinator Search

[10:35 – 16:59]

• The coordinator search is front and center: "This is by far the most expansive search for a defensive coordinator in franchise history."

  • Nine DC interviews and counting, with three in second-round consideration.

• Key Candidates Interviewed:

  • Familiar names: Ephraim Banda, Durante Jones, Jim Leonhard, Jonathan Gannon, Aaron Whitecotton, Zach Orr.
  • Recently added: Christian Parker (Eagles DBs), Demarcus Covington (Packers), Charlie Bullen (Giants).
  • Notable Note: The Cowboys were denied access to Jeff Ulbricht (Falcons).

• Christian Parker gets special praise for his track record developing DB talent.

  • Quote:
    • "Christian Parker has an incredible resume—maybe the best in terms of developing defensive backs out of all the candidates so far."
      — Tommy Yarish (11:51)

• Discussion on Timeline:

  • Some prospect interviews are delayed due to playoff status, but the panel largely agrees that the Cowboys have time to be thorough and smart in their process.

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3. Roster-Building Principles

[16:59 – 20:24]

• The Cowboys need not just a new coordinator, but better players—especially on defense.

  • "This defensive coordinator hire is going to determine whether your window stays open or it slams shut."
    — Patrick Walker (17:38)
  • "They need better players. They just do not have the personnel."
    — Tommy Yarish (18:59)

• Practical optimism: Two first-round draft picks and cap flexibility could allow for quality upgrades, but choosing the right DC to lead is step one.

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4. 2025 Cowboys Defensive Grades: Positional Breakdown

[24:16 – 51:24]

A. Interior Defensive Line

• Consensus: B to B+; strong improvement after midseason addition of Quinnen Williams, but inconsistent early and lacking depth.
  • Quote:
    • "Kenny Clark was exceptional … but you needed more from everyone before Quinnen arrived."
      — Patrick Walker (26:23)

B. Defensive End/Edge Rusher

• Consensus: Low grades (D, D-, C-). Jadeveon Clowney was a rare bright spot; high draft pick Donovan Eziraku failed to develop as expected; Dante Fowler underperformed.
  • "Too many Fs to give … D minus for the edge room."
    — Kyle Yeomans (35:43)
  • Stat Drop: Cowboys 26th in NFL for sack percentage, 16th in pressure percentage—so pressure occasionally generated, but not finished.

C. Linebackers

• Unanimous F (and even lower): Unit called the “Achilles heel” of the defense, with poor coverage, tackling, and development.
  • "Linebacker was your Achilles heel all season long."
    — Josh Rodriguez (41:25)
  • "The most jarring thing … so many times we would see these linebackers engage in blocks and not give any effort to get off of them."
    — Tommy Yarish (42:41)
  • "Eberflus had a good reputation for developing linebackers—except for here."
    — Tommy Yarish (41:59)

D. Secondary (Cornerbacks and Safeties Combined)

• General Consensus: D to F
  • Corners: Only rookie Reedy Stewart (CB) and recovering Savone Revel showed promise. Injuries and failed adjustments dominated narrative.
  • Safeties: Underutilized, played out of position, but not all blame falls to the group—linebacker woes exposed them.
  • "If you're letting these [mediocre] quarterbacks throw for career days … it's just not a good year."
    — Tommy Yarish (47:26)
  • "You need difference makers in the secondary—look at Seattle."
    — Tommy Yarish (49:33)
  • Savone Revel: Playing with a knee brace, never fully confident—panel expects a breakout if healthy in 2026.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Defensive Coordinator search:

  • "I would rather [the Cowboys] put in a little extra due diligence, to interview the right candidates and find the right person, than just say, 'Yeah, we like this guy—let's just go ahead and hand pick it.'"
    — Patrick Walker (17:28)

• Harsh reality check:

  • "Linebacker was your Achilles heel all season long."
    — Josh Rodriguez (41:25)
  • "This coordinator hire is going to determine whether your window stays open or it slams shut."
    — Patrick Walker (17:38)

• On the 49ers' strange luck:

  • "If those findings [about the power plant] became public … you're not going to tell me that a multi-billion dollar stadium was built within this proximity and no studies were done prior?"
    — Kyle Yeomans (05:19)

• Fan Engagement and Banter:

  • "Someone said, 'Isaiah looks pale...'"
    — Josh Rodriguez (02:13)
  • "How many times this season did we see [Savone Revel] get taken out of the game to adjust [his knee brace]?"
    — Kyle Yeomans (50:27)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 10:35 – Detailed breakdown of all defensive coordinator interviewees
• 16:59 – Philosophy: You need better players, not just a new DC
• 24:16 – Defensive report card series begins (Interior DL, DE/Edge, LB, Secondary)
• 41:25 – Linebackers: described as the “Achilles heel”
• 46:59 – Grading the secondary, with sharp criticism and faint hope for injured players
• 50:43 – Detailed discussion of Savone Revel's struggles and potential

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Summary Table: Cowboys 2025 Defense Position Grades

| Position Group | Panel Consensus Grade | Comments & Notable Points | |----------------------------|----------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | Interior Defensive Line | B/B+ | Strong with Williams/Clark, but slow start, depth issues | | Defensive End/Edge Rusher | D/D- | Clowney shined late, others underperformed, lacked sacks | | Linebacker | F | Poor coverage/tackling; "Achilles heel" of the defense | | Secondary (CBs/Safeties) | D to F | Stewart/Revel promising, but group failed collectively |

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Conclusion and Closing Vibes

The hosts are clear: Dallas’ defensive shortcomings in 2025 were not minor missteps, but fundamental personnel and coaching problems that demand urgent, thoughtful change. The defensive coordinator search is thorough for good reason, and the roster needs both talent infusion and better leadership. Optimism remains for a rebound, especially with so many offseason resources, but only if lessons are truly learned—and not repeated.

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Next Week Sneak Peek:
Look forward to a full episode celebrating Josh’s win in the pick ‘em segment, and some movie podcast recognition—because #CowboysNation knows how to mix football, celebration, and friendly ribbing like nowhere else.

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“You had one of the top three offenses in the NFL... this defensive coordinator hire is going to determine whether your window stays open or it slams shut.” — Patrick Walker (17:38)

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Transcript

[Kyle Yeomans]

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[Patrick No See Walker]

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[Josh Rodriguez]

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[Patrick No See Walker]

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[Josh Rodriguez]

Done, get ready to kick back, relax.

[Patrick No See Walker]

And enjoy the game.

[Josh Rodriguez]

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[Patrick No See Walker]

The following is a production of Dallas Cowboys.com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club. This is Talking Cowboys streaming live from the Dallas Cowboys world headquarters at the Star in Frisco. It's on. Jake Ferguson. Touchdown. Keeps it and he banks it in for the touchdown. And now your hosts, Isaiah Stanback, Patrick Walker, Josh Rodriguez and Kyle Yeomans. It's Sinoff season edition of Talking Cowboys presented by Black Rifle coffee company live from the Star in Frisco, Texas in the SWBC studios. Welcome in everybody. We've got Patrick no see Walker, Josh Rodriguez, Chris Beam in the back. I'm Kyle Yomitz filling in for Isaiah. Stand back, we've got the one, the only Tommy Yarish of Dallas Cowboys dot com.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Oh, brother.

[Patrick No See Walker]

O brother. Where's the drop being?

[Tommy Yarish]

What happened to warm welcome? Even before we get on the show, I'm getting welcome.

[Josh Rodriguez]

You're already a part of the show.

[Tommy Yarish]

Yelling at me in my ear. He's yelling at me.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I didn't yell at you.

[Tommy Yarish]

Yes, you did.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I did.

[Josh Rodriguez]

You're part of the show already, man.

[Tommy Yarish]

He comes, he comes forward immediately.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Trying to upend the whole rundown.

[Tommy Yarish]

No, no.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Trying to talk draft, dude. There's a whole show. Oh, brother. This guy stinks.

[Tommy Yarish]

About a minute and a half.

[Patrick No See Walker]

We've got an hour until that show starts, so we'll be okay.

[Tommy Yarish]

Well, I was talking about something completely separate. I know you didn't.

[Patrick No See Walker]

We are going to put together some cool draft blog content today though.

[Tommy Yarish]

Let's go. So battlescowboys.com look out for it.com. no, no, Isaiah, I can't hit that note.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Jury can.

[Tommy Yarish]

No, I can't.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Yeah, you're sitting in the chair. You got to hit the SWBC studios.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Someone said Isaiah looks pale.

[Tommy Yarish]

Just a little bit.

[Patrick No See Walker]

It is winning.

[Tommy Yarish]

Sorry, guys. Just to that guy a little bit.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Shouts out to that guy. Appreciate you all joining us here. We gotta love the chat.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Kyle Yeomans]

The fan.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Good morning. F family.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Hope everybody's doing okay.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Wonderful to see you everybody.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Have a good, safe holiday weekend.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Oh, yes, excellent.

[Kyle Yeomans]

It was good. Good calming, you know, spend time with the family.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Good.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yeah. Decompress for a little bit detached for A little bit.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Didn't have the stresses of NFL playoff.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Football division or not, my hate watch was utterly successful. Okay.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Yeah, tell me about it. How was your hit watch?

[Kyle Yeomans]

I mean, well, you know, last week, obviously, you know, the Eagles went down and then. So then up next was seeing The San Francisco 40 49ers hopefully lose. Not only did they lose, they got washed.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Oh, brother.

[Tommy Yarish]

What was left of The San Francisco 49ers?

[Kyle Yeomans]

They got taken out.

[Tommy Yarish]

Fair.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Have you ever seen that many injuries in one particular playoff game?

[Tommy Yarish]

Goodness, that was horrible.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I mean, it was like every other play there was somebody leaving.

[Josh Rodriguez]

But that's been their whole season.

[Patrick No See Walker]

It really has.

[Kyle Yeomans]

I really want you to scan my face.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Let's see how much.

[Kyle Yeomans]

See if you can find any F's that I give, because I do not.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I'm scanning and I do not see anything.

[Tommy Yarish]

We buy into the power plant theory.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Okay, So I was going to bring that up. Is that a real thing?

[Tommy Yarish]

Yes, that's a real thing.

[Patrick No See Walker]

So there's a power plant that's next to or nearby the San Francisco 49ers training facility and headquarters. As if. As is. The star in Frisco is close to the Comerica center and the Frisco rough riders and IKEA. It is close to IKEA. Yeah, IKEA's over there. That's a staple. Then you go to the opposite side and you've got San Francisco. It's close to this power plant that apparently is putting off too much radiation.

[Tommy Yarish]

I don't know what it. Look, I'm not a scientist.

[Patrick No See Walker]

That's not either.

[Josh Rodriguez]

If Chernobyl and the Simpsons have taught us anything, it's that radiation is not.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Great for human beings.

[Tommy Yarish]

That's a pretty good analysis. But you can see sometimes they take videos of practice through 49ers beat writers or whoever it is, and you can see it in the background, and it's like that close. I don't know. Maybe this is too much scientific theory. I mean, I'm sure they've been practicing.

[Josh Rodriguez]

There for when Brock Purdy has a third eye. Next year we're going to be real entertaining.

[Tommy Yarish]

Joanne Jennings has four legs and he's galloping around.

[Patrick No See Walker]

So the USA Today.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Four legs because they keep tearing ACLs. That's true. One or two of them.

[Patrick No See Walker]

The USA Today, like, published an article about it. So, I mean, there's. There's legs to the rumor, right?

[Josh Rodriguez]

I mean, there's several of them.

[Tommy Yarish]

Yeah.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Maybe it might be running in the right direction, but it's a conspiracy theory, and I think that's really all it is. But that is pretty wild.

[Kyle Yeomans]

No, I could see it being a thing. I mean just like the power line. There's not even a theory.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Let's say they have scientific. You're a big science guy. Let's say they have scientific evidence that this is the case. How quickly would they build a new France, like new headquarters elsewhere? My thing is it would have to start immediately. Right.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Tomorrow it would bring those Olympic construction workers and see. Then the question comes nonstop for several.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Using the word controversy. Then the question becomes. You're saying if that if that if those findings became public. You're not going to tell me that a multi billion dollar stadium was built within this proximity of a power plant and no studies were done prior. Like nobody thought twice.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Oh, like people think twice before doing things that are capital gains.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yeah, that's what I mean. So some somebody knew something but at the end of the day it's a San Francisco problem. Hope they get that figured out. Actually, no.

[Tommy Yarish]

When I think hey we gotta play there. When I designing stadiums and play leaf. You know, design my expansive knowledge in designing buildings. I typically, you know, when I'm scanning the terrain, a nuclear power plant. First thing that I'm looking for. Right. Just prime, prime position.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Maybe cheap real estate. Maybe that's why they did it cheap for. That's what I'm saying.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yeah.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Melvin said they've practiced by a power plant for like 30 years. I don't know when they built the facility, but they haven't won a Super bowl in 30.

[Kyle Yeomans]

30 years.

[Tommy Yarish]

That's my point.

[Kyle Yeomans]

I feel like they've been so devil's advocate. I'll say it. So no one in the family has to ne. As the cowboy said, there's no power plant here.

[Patrick No See Walker]

That's just pure bad luck.

[Kyle Yeomans]

No, we just do oil.

[Tommy Yarish]

Yeah, that's pretty big, right?

[Kyle Yeomans]

That's pretty big oil and natural gas here in the great state of Texas. So. Yeah. But you know my hate watch was fantastic and down to. And I sorry Miami fans, but I'm not a Carson Beck fan. Everyone could know why. I don't need to get into that. But Carson Beck.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Go Dogs.

[Tommy Yarish]

Can't say it.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Carson Beck ended his career. Go Dogs. Wow.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I guess on a loss on an exception.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yeah. That was so on Brand so shouts out to Indiana, man. Indiana. I mean just, just what they've been able to achieve is unbelievable. And I honestly say this objectively. Even if my dogs had advanced, no one was beating Indiana this year.

[Patrick No See Walker]

They really.

[Tommy Yarish]

That's the best level the Best turnaround of a program in football history. Yeah, that's.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I don't think you could.

[Josh Rodriguez]

They're just structurally sound. Physically sound. I mean, just all the above. The best team in college football.

[Tommy Yarish]

116.

[Patrick No See Walker]

0. Heisman Trophy winner.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Just unbelievable.

[Patrick No See Walker]

There are pictures of their season opener two years ago in August and there was like 4,500 people in the stands. And now they're national champions. You see the riots and not the riots, but like the celebration.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Right.

[Josh Rodriguez]

In Indiana. Jesus.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Right. If you've been out there, what they.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Have the grease those stop signs, buddy.

[Tommy Yarish]

Right?

[Patrick No See Walker]

Not a lot of whole lot. There's not a. A lot going on in Bloomington, Indiana.

[Kyle Yeomans]

What's going to happen if you get to the top of the stop sign?

[Patrick No See Walker]

Ouch.

[Josh Rodriguez]

What if you hurt your ankle on the way down?

[Patrick No See Walker]

Dude, that's the highest elevation in Indiana. Dude.

[Kyle Yeomans]

They got fair.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Good for them.

[Kyle Yeomans]

I'm sure they did it with more class than Philadelphia. I mean, everyone does.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Yeah, that's true.

[Kyle Yeomans]

That's easy.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Someone says best championship money can buy. Shouts to Melvin, you said it, buddy.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Money doesn't even have any money. Not the same that it has the teams that they beat along.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Hey, Melvin, shut up.

[Tommy Yarish]

Indiana just has a bunch of 30 year olds.

[Patrick No See Walker]

They're all from JMU. They played a James Madison. Anything that should show that like group of five teams aren't as far off from those power four teams as you joke.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Power.

[Tommy Yarish]

What a fun week.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Was fun.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Power.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Power. Nah, that wasn't on purpose. Let's get into news and notes. Let's talk about the Dallas Cowboys a little bit. When we talk about the coordinator search, that's always got to be number one.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yep. It's expanded a bit since last we met here on this great panel called Talk Talking Cowboys. So we'll work it from back to forward. So we'll talk about who we knew about, we spoke about and then we'll go into who. Who's new as far as the candidacy is concerned. So we know that the Cowboys have interviewed Ephraim Banda Brown, safeties coach Durante Jones, Vikings defensive pass game coordinator Jim Leonard. A lot of people I like Jim. Broncos defensive pass game coordinator Jonathan Gannon, currently a free agent. Aaron White Cotton, incumbent Cowboys defensive line coach Zach or Ravens defensive coordinat. Now, these next three guys, these next three guys are new to the fold as far as most recently interviewed. So Christian Parker, Eagles pass game coordinator slash defensive backs coach, interviewed. We'll talk about him in a moment. Demarcus Covington, packers run game coordinator and Defensive line coach, also spoke with the Cowboys. And Charlie Bullen, Giants interim defensive coordinator. He was also. He also spoke with them. Now key Jeff Ulbricht. The Cowboys were initially denied an interview by the Atlanta Falcons for speaking with Jeff Ulbricht. Cowboys were hoping to circle back there in the event that whomever became the new head coach. Now we know it's Kevin Stefanski was going to move on from Ulbricht. As it turns out, they are not going to move on from him. So they still look at the Cowboys and say no soup for you. So the Cowboys will not speak with Jeff Ulbricht, but Charlie Bullen, Demarcus Covington, Christian Parker. Add those three to the list of interviewed candidates or soon to be interviewed candidates and then we have others that might get a look. We'll see. Cowboys fans are asking for a Q and a with Sean McDermott, for example. So some, some new names are out there that Cowboys haven't spoken with it.

[Tommy Yarish]

I would be shocked if Sean McDermott was interview only because I think he'll be a head coach next. I think he'll be a head coach again.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I don't where that was the most surprising coaching move.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I don't know.

[Tommy Yarish]

Well, it'll be something. I mean you've got six openings left in the NFL. That's. This is an unprecedented off season in terms of the amount just appears.

[Josh Rodriguez]

10 total, right?

[Tommy Yarish]

Yeah, 10 total. And I filled four with Robert Sala being hired by the Titans last night. I think the interesting part about this search is that now we're kind of getting into the second phase of it in terms of guys coming in for second in person interviews. Some interviews may have already been in person, I think. Patrick, you reported last week that Zach Orr might have been here. It makes sense. He's. He's from the area. North Texas guy went to unt.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Hey, go Mean Green.

[Tommy Yarish]

Thank you.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Their next game, by the way, just so you know.

[Tommy Yarish]

Oh, good luck.

[Patrick No See Walker]

We open at Indiana.

[Tommy Yarish]

Good luck, man. Good luck.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Mean Green. Get after it. Y' all better ramp up Neil Brown.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Undefeated season on the way, baby.

[Tommy Yarish]

Let's keep it to within 50. But some guys that that have interviewed or will be coming in for in person interviews. Durante Jones, the Vikings pass game coordinator. Jonathan Gannon, the former Cardinals head coach and then the Eagles pass game coordinator and DB's coach, Christian Parker. I'll tell you what, I think I'm really impressed by Christian Parker's resume. I think he's done a fantastic job.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Tell us about his resume.

[Tommy Yarish]

Years. Yeah, started out in Denver and was the DB's coach in Denver and started when they drafted Patric Tan, led him to three straight Pro Bowls before he went to the Eagles. And then he's done an excellent job there developing Quinon Mitchell and Cooper DeJean, both of those guys all pros this year, in his second year with the team. So he has a knack for developing the defensive backfield. And when you think about this Cowboys defense, obviously the secondary, much like every unit on their defense, was a massive struggle this year, but they feel like they have guys in place there and Savone Revel and Jaques Bridges is a guy they're high on. Who knows if that's going to be the case for 20, 26. Do they go first round with a draft a corner? But they want to develop these young defensive backs that they've got back there. And I think Christian Parker has an incredible resume, maybe the best resume in terms of the developing of defensive backs of all the candidates that have been interviewed so far. So consider me a fan of Christian Parker and we'll see how the rest of this goes. But those three names kind of just naturally because they're coming in for those second interviews. We talked to Stephen Jones last week and he was telling us about that, that they're starting to get into that process too. Those names kind of rise a little bit more to the top in terms of, okay, these are more probable hires in terms of maybe guys that have only been interviewed once.

[Josh Rodriguez]

And just again on Leonard, to reiterate, we can't have an in person interview with him until the Broncos season is over.

[Tommy Yarish]

Broncos needs to need to lose first before they can speak to him.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Does that hinder your thought process on how Dallas could attack this? Because it's allowing all these other head coaching vacancies to shore up now, right? The head coaching vacancy started with nine. They filled a couple, now there's a couple more. Yeah, Buffalo, that's open now. Crazy. So all of, by the time a lot of these head coaches are hired, everybody's caught back up. And Dallas doesn't necessarily get a head start on talking to guys like Leonard and talking to guys like anybody on that list, really, because there are now nine or 10 other teams that are trying to do the same. Green Bay's got to hire a defensive coordinator now. So all of that to be said, does that hinder it now that you're waiting on a possibility to try and hire a guy like Leonard?

[Kyle Yeomans]

I don't know that it hinders it. I mean, you're seeing these Guys get, you know, interviews from multiple teams and rightfully so. Christian Parker, when you talk about these guys and, and Leonard, he's going to. He's right there in the mix with several teams as well. But I think when you look at a guy like Jim Leonard, for example, since that's the one we're talking about, I think that based on what he's been able to accomplish, I think that if push comes to absolute shove and you finally have the come to Christ moment, and you're like, jim Leonard's our guy. We just haven't been able to get him in office just yet. But maybe you've had a couple of zoom calls. You have his resume, you've had him speak with several of the coaches already. I think you pull the trigger there if that's your guy. Right. So I say that to say, Kyle, I don't think that this hinders the process. And keep in mind, we still have. We being the NFL, still have six coaching vacancies, head coaching vacancies to fill out. So that's going to take a few more days. Now they're starting to kind of trickle in. Robert Sala to the Titans, Kevin Stefanski over the weekend, obviously John Harbaugh to the Giants. But there's still, you know, Pittsburgh and several other teams out there as well. So there's a lot of sorting to be done at the NFL level from head coaching downward through the coordinator. So I think the Cowboys have a little bit of time to get this sorted out. But again, if. If they absolutely feel after speaking with all of these candidates that Jim Leonard is their guy, but they haven't been able to speak with him in person yet, I say pull the trigger. I don't say. I say don't wait for that.

[Josh Rodriguez]

One thing that I loved from Nick Harris over the weekend, he kind of like laid it all out on Twitt. Just check them out on Twitter. Of course, you probably already follow him, but I think it's safe to say that this is by far the most expansive search for a defensive coordinator in franchise history. We're looking at nine coordinator interviews so far, plus three that are in their second round. And in the past, you've had upwards of three to four, so this is a quite a different shot.

[Kyle Yeomans]

He's not kidding around.

[Josh Rodriguez]

This feels like a shoddy move to be able to widen the search, be expansive about it, and really make sure you're picking the right guy.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Also, look at the age range. Yeah, this is a. That's further evidence that this is a Brian Schouten Yeah.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Not all of them are. Have been head coaches.

[Patrick No See Walker]

That was my point.

[Kyle Yeomans]

We talked about.

[Patrick No See Walker]

The experience level is different, the age group is different. The, the, the schematics of it all are all different very clearly.

[Tommy Yarish]

And in terms of the, the weight and like, okay, are we going to wait for Jim Leonard? I don't think the Cowboys are the only team that are waiting for Jim. The packers are another team that if they get a chance to get him after this week, because I'm sorry, but it probably will be after this week, then I think that's, that makes you feel a little bit better maybe about waiting, because you just kind of think, okay, if this guy's at the top of the list for several teams, maybe some of the other guys that we still like, but maybe not like as much as Jim Leonard are going to be around because they're not going to get scooped up. But then again, you think about the fact that you have six head coaching openings, and that doesn't mean there's going to be six defensive coordinator openings as well. But there are other defensive coordinator openings just from natural firings and such around the league as well. You know, the packers being one of those teams. So. But in terms of it being an expansive net, it needed to be, frankly, like, this is. This could not be, you know, we know who our guy is going in to the interview process.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I mean, how long did Eberfluss take? Like a few days.

[Tommy Yarish]

It was pretty clear when Brian Schottheimer was hired that that's the direction they were gonna go. Right, which is why it's only a matter of time.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Melvin, now, Josh got you early. I gotta get you now. Melvin says study long, study wrong. Problem is, they didn't study at all last time, so I don't begrudge them for actually studying for a good period of time with so many worthy candidates.

[Josh Rodriguez]

So, yeah, what's the definition of insanity?

[Kyle Yeomans]

Repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I don't know how you could go into a decision this massive and not study and not give it any sort of extra thought.

[Josh Rodriguez]

No stone left unturned.

[Patrick No See Walker]

You had one of the top three offenses in the NFL with a franchise quarterback that is on the back half of his career. Whether it's, you look at the age or the play or whatever it is, he's still playing at a prime level, but he is going into his age 33 season. The fact of the matter is this defensive coordinator hire is going to determine whether your window stays open or it Slams shut. That's what this defensive coordinator hire is. So to put in a little extra effort, to put in a little extra due diligence, to interview the right candidates and find the right person, I would rather that than just say, yeah, we like this guy, and let's just go ahead and hand pick it and leave.

[Josh Rodriguez]

He was a head coach.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Exactly. Yeah. So this is a massive decision on whether or not the Cowboys are going to be competitive over the next four to five years or not.

[Tommy Yarish]

Yeah. And especially, man, Kyle, you've had four in the last four years. I mean, you just can't. You just can't do that. And this offense is so good, especially if you keep George Pickens and you keep Javante Williams, that you have to expect a lot of the same next year. I don't see this offense taking a step back. If they do, I don't think it'll be to the point where you can't win games because of it. So, yeah, this is very important. But at the same time, as much as we talk about the coordinator, and that's very important, no doubt they need better players.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Amen.

[Tommy Yarish]

They just do not have the personnel.

[Patrick No See Walker]

But you can't necessarily go find your personnel without knowing who your leader is on that side.

[Tommy Yarish]

That's right. But. But the good news is, one, you have the time to get that, because it won't take them till free agency to do that.

[Patrick No See Walker]

No, I hope not.

[Tommy Yarish]

And two, you get two first round picks in the draft. So whether or not you pick those two first rounders or you trade one of them away, they have an opportunity here to build a much better unit. And they have the cap flexibility to create some space to sign some more free agents. They were, I think, more aggressive than people thought they would be last year in terms of the number, pure number of signings that they made. And now it's about, you know, quality over quantity.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I think there was some risk there too.

[Tommy Yarish]

Sure.

[Josh Rodriguez]

With the signings that you had, because they're still sort of in that. That cap the pie of it.

[Kyle Yeomans]

All.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Right. But to your point, it's about making the better decision and finding the right guys and getting the better personnel.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Well, and the goal here is not just to win games. Going back to Tommy's point, you can win games with a sub substantial improvement on defense, but that's not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is to be playing this upcoming weekend next year, playing in the NFC title game, have a chance to go to a Super Bowl. All of those things are your goal and what you're trying to do and what you're trying to accomplish. So a complete revamp on defense is possible. But it's got to start with the right leader on that side of the ball. And so this is the most important thing you've got all season long.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Who's kept it in the ship.

[Patrick No See Walker]

And you gotta, you gotta take your time kind of figuring that out. All right. Speaking of the defense and speaking of what we think thought of the defense, any other news and notes before?

[Kyle Yeomans]

No transactions or anything. So just adding those three candidates to the defensive coordinator pot and we'll see how that goes.

[Patrick No See Walker]

We'll see if they have one by next Tuesday. Maybe. That would be fun. When we come back, we're going to continue our grades, our report card series where we're going to grade the defensive side of the ball. If you missed last week's episode, we went all through the offense, gave our grades. This is probably going to be a little bit more harsh. I would anticipate when it comes to the defensive side of the ball. More talking Cowboys right after. After this.

[Kyle Yeomans]

How's it going? You see that Cowboys game?

[Patrick No See Walker]

Oh, I watched.

[Tommy Yarish]

Been seeing some good things.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Totally. They have some talent.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yep.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Some great talent.

[Kyle Yeomans]

And they got some fight.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Hoping this is the year.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Me too. Oh, I'm Cody, by the way.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I'm Travis.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Nice to meet you, Travis. Go Cowboys.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Go Cowboys.

[Commercial/Announcer]

Make a new friend based solely on their shirt choice. What would you like the power to take bank of America, the official bank of the Dallas Cowboys. Copyright 2025 bank of America Corporation.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Cowboys fans, we've got big news. Black Rifle Energy is now available at Texas Seven Eleven stores. And for a limited time, you can score two cans for just $6 at participating locations. These cans pack a serious punch. 200 milligrams of caffeine, veteran crafted flavor and the clean energy you need to power through those long days. So the next time you roll into your neighborhood, 711 here in Texas, grab that two for six dollar black R& fuel up the American way. Black Rifle Coffee. America's coffee.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Every day begins with a promise. A promise to work hard and to build a future. That's why we're here, providing the tools, expertise and John Deere equipment you have relied on for generations to help you get the job done right. We're with you. That's our promise to you. Because no matter the project or the challenge you're facing, we're with you.

[Commercial/Announcer]

We're united at, AT and T. We guarantee our network so you can talk college football with your bff while taking buster to the vet.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Hey, yeah. I can't believe he ate the whole.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Thing of chicken wings.

[Tommy Yarish]

And I can't believe we're staging a comeback.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Touchdown.

[Commercial/Announcer]

Yes, staying connected matters. That's why in the rare event of a network outage, you'll automatically get a bill credit for a full day service service for wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers must be connected to impacted tower on set of outage. Restrictions and exclusions apply catt.com guarantee for full details.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Back to talking cowboys. Back here on talking cowboys, presented by black rifle coffee company, the official coffee of the Dallas Cowboys. This segment is brought to you by invisalign. The official smile of the Dallas Cowboys. That's a sweet cup there, Josh.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Oh, yeah, you like that? It's available in Dallas Cowboys pro shop.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Is it? I didn't bring it today, but I got a. A black rifle coffee mug. It's a. It's a yeti with a cowboys logo on. But I'm working on getting it for the whole crew, so. Okay, I'm working on it. I was about to say, man, I worked an event. And then they were like, here's the. The gift. I was like, well, if you would have known this ahead of time, I would have asked for five of them. So that way we have one for everybody.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Say it live on the. On global live stream and then say, shh.

[Patrick No See Walker]

No, no.

[Kyle Yeomans]

What is it? That.

[Patrick No See Walker]

That's just because I can clip this and listen, try and get this working in the right direction. Yeah. Thousands of people watching on Dallas Cowboys.com tens of thousands. Tens of thousands. I like that.

[Josh Rodriguez]

The millions.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Ten millions.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Maybe not the offseason, but.

[Kyle Yeomans]

No, seriously.

[Josh Rodriguez]

No, like for per year.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Oh, per year. Absolutely. It's in the millions, but we are in January and Kyle, so it's a little different. But our talking Cowboys fan, moly is. Who is here.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Cooper. I'm sorry.

[Patrick No See Walker]

All right, let's talk. Speaking of.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Enough.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Let's talk about defensive season grades.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Oh, God damn.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Let's start.

[Tommy Yarish]

Let's start.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Let's start. Positively. Start Positively. Okay, interior defensive line.

[Kyle Yeomans]

A plus.

[Tommy Yarish]

A plus.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah, I'm go. B minus.

[Patrick No See Walker]

That's the highest grade of anybody you've given so far. Better than the quarterback, better than the wide receivers, better than the running backs, better than.

[Kyle Yeomans]

You're fair.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I mean, you're giving it an a plus. I know. Comparison.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Well, the reason I didn't give the quarterbacks an a plus wasn't because of Dak it was because you don't know who your backup is. And when you had a chance to look at your backup, albeit later in the season, yeah, it didn't look great. Right. So I mean, Dak could be an A plus, but then, I mean you got like an F behind him. So. But was the interior perfect post Quinnan. It was sensational. And then it kind of fell, but not because of Quinn. So you know what, that's fair. Let me go with, let me go to B plus and I'll say B plus. Looking at the, the totality of it being that that Quinn and was not here the first half of the season. When he was not here the first half of the season, you needed to see more from osa who's coming off of that big contract extension. You didn't necessarily see that. Solomon Thomas, he had a massively hot start, kind of cooled a little bit though now that was a little bit due to injury as well. So to be fair to Solly, but it wasn't. And Kenny Clark, Kenny Clark came on strong following that trade with Michael Parsons. So Kenny Clark, I like what he did for the majority of the season, had a couple of slow patches, but for the most part, Kenny Clark was exceptional. In my book. You didn't get much of anything from Jay Thoya continues to develop. He was on the inactive list the majority of the season. Perry on Winfrey came off IR late in the season. Didn't really get any reps. He got I think one game activated post IR return, so didn't really see anything there. So I guess what carries the grade obviously is Quinnan post box. Kenny Clark all season. Solly the beginning of the season, OSA during a three game stretch, nothing from Toya, nothing from Winfrey. I'll land a B plus carried by Quinn and Kenny.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I'm going with B minus because you did have, for a long stretch of the season, you had Mozzie Smith as an inactive player on your roster on game day. To me that is, I mean, obviously the interior defensive line was not playing well in those weeks and that's why you needed the help. And of course the they, they wanted the help early on. That's why they got Kenny Clark who did a very serviceable job. I'm not saying he was perfect. I don't even think it was a great year statistically for him. But I think once you added Quinn and Williams, he was able to shine a little more. And of course you saw more from OSA as soon as you got Quinn Williams. Quinn Williams is the Barometer now for your interior defensive line. That's where I'm at. A B minus. I don't think it was perfect in all stretches, especially Kenny Clark in that the Panthers game, that was really rough, but it was just a. An amalgam of things that were against you in that game.

[Patrick No See Walker]

It got ran over by Rico Dowdle.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Over and over and over and over again because that was. They were like, oh, this is what we're going to do and you could not stop it.

[Patrick No See Walker]

But maybe not even their running back one anymore.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I think there is a different position on there anymore. Yeah, maybe defense that was able to really bring down the score for everybody else. And we'll talk about that here in a bit. But B minus for the interior defensive line.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Okay, welcome. I like it.

[Tommy Yarish]

I'll agree with you. Minus. I think personnel wise, they're really good, especially now with Quinn Williams and you know, I don't think OSA as a top. Your top guy is necessarily the best. So I think now that the Quinn Williams is there, that certainly will benefit him. Kenny Clark, just being a veteran presence, Solomon Thomas, you hit the nail on the head, I think is he started out the year really well. I think he was one of the better run defenders in the. On the defensive tackle room throughout the entire year. But, you know, I don't think they generated as much interior pressure as we thought they would. I don't think that they, towards the back half of the season, played the run as well as they did when Quinn and Williams got traded. And I think that some of that is because of the fact that the next levels of the defense didn't necessarily do their jobs very well. But I think that their, their personnel is there in terms in when it comes to being able to have success in the future now. It's just kind of building around it. So, yeah, B minus for me.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I'm probably splitting the difference.

[Kyle Yeomans]

I'd say B.

[Patrick No See Walker]

The same reasons y' all just outlined. You made a trade for one of the top players at the position in the Micah Parsons trade, Kenny Clark, Probably a top 15 top 10 defensive tackle in football right now. Played that way for much of the year. But was he perfect? No. Still room to grow, still room to dive in.

[Josh Rodriguez]

And I mean, it was all on him at a certain point.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Exactly. Like he was the best player on your team at the first part, first.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Half, biggest chunk of the season.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yeah.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Then you turn around, you pay, you make a trade for a better player at the position in Quinn and Williams. But you needed to make that trade Initially in the first place. So it wasn't perfect to begin with. And even post Quinn and Williams, it wasn't perfect afterwards. But I still think a B is very fair now compared to what it was previously. I don't think there's another position that made a monumental jump the same way that that one did. Actually, I know there isn't because even you look at the other improvements. Wide receiver, vast improvement from last year. Running back, vast improvement from last year. There's nothing quite like the jump the defensive tackle took, and it took two major trades to get it done. But you're set up and that's the core of your defense moving forward. So B is good.

[Josh Rodriguez]

It sets up your future as well.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Room to grow. I think OSA could probably be better. We'll see what Solomon Thomas does this offseason and how if he's back and where he goes and that kind of thing. I think there's room to improve there behind those two guys. But just having those two guys is a huge piece moving forward now. Defensive end moving over a little bit to the edge rusher spot. Tommy, I'll let you start this one. Good radio here. D. Wow.

[Tommy Yarish]

Okay, maybe D plus at best. I mean, Davion Clowney at the end of the year was sensational in terms of, you know, where his expectations were. You just kind of wanted him to be a veteran presence and then he comes out and he's your best pass rusher at the end of the year. That should not be the case. All due respect to Jadevian Clowney, he's a fantastic player. He is unbelievable as an athlete. To be able to still do the things that he does so well this long in his tenure in the league is remarkable and all the power to him and the Cowboys should try to bring him back this season. But you know, you spent a second round pick on Donovan Ezraku, who was a monster pass rusher at Boston College, led the country in sacks, and he ends up being a better run defender than he was a pass rusher in his first year. That, that, that skill hasn't gone anywhere. He hasn't forgotten how to rush the passer. Is there a part of it that you need to learn how to rush in the NFL? Sure. But, you know, you. He should have been getting after the quarterback more and being taught to get after the quarterback more. I think with the right coaching going forward, and I think Aaron Whitecott does a good job and I think he'll continue to do a good job, but with maybe a new voice in terms of A defensive coordinator and new ways to scheme up pressure and get home on the quarterback. I think he can take the next step. Aside from that, you know, James Houston was really cool for a while. He was a great story, you know, showing up on the second day of training camp and led the team in sacks for a majority of the season. But you can't, you can't bank on that going forward. If those three guys are the guys that we're talking about here and saying, yeah, there's our pass rush unit, yeah, you're not going to have a lot of success defensively. I think it starts with making the quarterback uncomfortable. We were talking about Indiana earlier. You want to know why Indiana didn't just roll over Miami yesterday like they had the rest of the College Football Playoff? It's because Miami was getting pressure on Fernando Mendoza.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Yep.

[Tommy Yarish]

That's how you win football games on defense. If you can affect the quarterback, if you can make them uncomfortable, it makes everybody's jobs easier in the linebacker room in the secondary. And the Cowboys did not have a great pass rush this year. And that's why we're sitting here.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I'm. Yours was C or D. He said.

[Tommy Yarish]

D plus, D plus.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I'm going C minus for all the reasons you just said. I mean, of course, Jadevian Clowney was the best pass rusher that you had. I was disappointed with the performance of Dante Fowler throughout the season. He talked about, you know, dealing with injuries throughout, but I just don't think that that was necessarily what you banked on whenever you signed him for the one year deal. And then on top of that, as a Raku, I expected more of a pass rush from him. Granted, you guys are talking a lot about his run defense, which was, you know, fine, I, I, I guess, but I didn't see the big playability from a Raku. I hope that changes. I hope with a new defensive coordinator that you were able to find more of a consistency there with his pass rush, the, the moves that he makes. But, but this season for me was really disappointing for as Rocku and the rest of the defensive end room.

[Kyle Yeomans]

D minus, D minus, almost failing. Yeah. The only reason, well, one of the only reasons, obviously that it's not an F is because Jadevion Cloney. I mean, like Tommy said so eloquently, I mean, he's a freakish athlete even at, you know, in his early 30s. I mean, the fact that you can come in with no training camp off of the couch. Yeah, he had a slow start because he had to knock some rust Off. But man, when he got going, did he ever get November, December, December, December. Unbelievable. Absolutely. To sign early with a team so that he can get a full offseason program. So there you go, Cowboys. Make it happen. But I'm also with Tommy on the aspect of we, I think we all agree Javion Clown needs to be back in the building, but it's also true that he cannot be the guy leading the charge like he simply can't be. Because if he is, then that means no knock to him. That means that you have question marks elsewhere and that's where those question marks get you. Out of D minus coming out of 2024. You said it. Donovan Nezraku ceiling is unbelievably high. Now whether you put that on him and or Matt Eber floose and trying to, you know, fit him into the DeMarcus Lawrence mode versus the DeMarcus Ware mode after you, you know, lose Demarcus Lawrence, who knows Whatever the case may be, what we do know is that Donovan as Raku, he flashed on some occasions but he didn't develop as quickly last year as we thought he would coming off of, you know, a nation leading record setting sack season that he had at Boston College. So you need a lot more from Ezra. Who James Houston was great in spots. Struggled against the run though, which is why he struggled to get on the field and stay on the field when it came to coaching decisions. Right. So James Houston, I give him a B because this is a guy who was brought in off the couch and a lot of people thought he was just a camp body. He proved he was much more than that. He made plays in more than one game. Game. Okay. In more than one fashion. Javon Clowney covers outside of those two guys. The majority of the pressure came from the interior of your defensive line. Yeah, I did you. Sam Williams was in a contract year.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Kyle Yeomans]

No, that would you get there, right. Dante Fowler contract year. Cuz one year. Prove it. Deal. Coming off of a career best season with Dan Quinn and the Washington Commanders, you thought you were getting that Dante Fowler you be it injury or coaching and. Or coaching. You got a shell of that version of Dante Fowler. You have Jada'veion Clowney A plus.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Yep.

[Kyle Yeomans]

You got Donovan Ezraku A plus.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Late.

[Kyle Yeomans]

A plus Light put late, late. You got Donovan Nezraku as a C, James Houston as a B and the rest is FFF. So when you got that many, you know, Fs. For me it just drags it all the way down to a deep it's.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Like too many Fs to give.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yes.

[Patrick No See Walker]

It's the cumulative GPA average.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Right.

[Patrick No See Walker]

It's like what the school's all trying for.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Sure.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Get going.

[Josh Rodriguez]

And also to kind of reiterate too, again about Dante Fowler, he criticized, you know, in not so uncertain terms, the defensive coordinator and not being able to have certain plays that fit the personnel better.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Listen, the bottom line is when Quinn and Williams is. Is traded from the jets to your team mid season and immediately over the first two or three stretches of games, has, through that stretch of games, has the most sacks of anyone on your defensive line. This is your defensive tackle that just got here, doesn't know the playbook, doesn't know the scheme, and he's the one generating the most pressure. That's credit to Quinn for being able to do so. But when you look at the des, that is unacceptable.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Yeah. Would you guys believe me? Actually, let me phrase it this way. Which one do you feel like was a lower ranking among the 32 NFL teams for Dallas? Was it quarterback pressure percentage or was it sack percentage? Sack percentage, you think it was a lower. Lower overall?

[Kyle Yeomans]

Do you.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Do you agree or do you disagree?

[Josh Rodriguez]

What was the first option?

[Patrick No See Walker]

Pressures, pressure percentage or sack percentage?

[Josh Rodriguez]

Lower sack percentage.

[Tommy Yarish]

Okay, I'd agree. Sack Percentage.

[Patrick No See Walker]

It was 26th in the NFL out of 32 teams. Sack percentage. The pressure rate was 16th in the NFL. So you did get pressure at times, but a lot of. And you mentioned it, the key there it was on the interior, but you got to be able to finish and that's where your edge rushers come in and that's where you lacked. So I think the stats and the analytics kind of back that up a little bit. We got to move on because we got linebackers, corners, safeties on the other side of the break. We're going to have to roll through these pretty quickly here. More talking Cowboys right after this.

[Commercial/Announcer]

At, AT and T, we guarantee our network so you can talk college football with your BFF while taking Buster to the vet.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Hey, yeah.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I can't believe he ate the whole.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Thing of chicken wings.

[Tommy Yarish]

And I can't believe we're staging a comeback.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Touchdown.

[Commercial/Announcer]

Yes, staying connected matters. That's why in the rare event of a network outage, you'll automatically get a bill code credit for a full day service. For wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers must be connected to impacted tower on set of outage. Restrictions and exclusions apply. Catt.com guarantee for full details, Cowboys Fans.

[Patrick No See Walker]

We'Ve got big news. Black Rifle Energy is now available at Texas Seven Eleven stores and for a limited time you can score two cans for just $6 at participating locations. These cans pack a serious punch, 200 milligrams of caffeine, veteran crafted flavor and the clean energy you need to power through those long days. So the next time you roll into your neighbo hood 711 here in Texas, grab that two for $6 black rifle energy deal and fuel up the American way. Black Rifle Coffee. America's coffee.

[Josh Rodriguez]

If you shout how about them Cowboys? You have that undeniable passion that's the heart of Cowboys Nation. And if you like to drink Dr. Pepper, you love the unique blend of its 23 flavors together. Your one of a kind fandom paired with the one of a kind taste of a delicious ice cold Dr. Pepper is the game day long lineup that can't be beat. Better yet, gather Your Cowboys and Dr. Pepper fan friends to watch the next game and crack open a delicious ice cold Dr. Pepper for everyone. The wins will be even tastier. It's a pepper thing.

[Patrick No See Walker]

It's the official men's skin care brand of the Dallas Cowboys Jack Black. And right now Cowboys fans can get 15% off their $75 order. Plus because every deal needs a playmaker, your order will include a free five piece skin care set and free shipping. The Jack Black Playmaker is four of Jack's favorites in a full sized intense therapy lip balm. Make a play for the [e-mail] Cowboys with the code Cowboys VIP that's getjackblack.com Cowboys with the Code Cowboys VIP Back to talking Cowboys back here on Talking Cowboys with Patrick Walker. Josh Rodriguez. I almost said Isaiah stand back but filling in for him, Tommy Yarish, Chris Beam in the back. I'm Kyle Yeoman. All right, let's go to linebackers here. This should be pretty consensus. This is not going to be a high grade right Pat? If okay, do you really need to give a ton of explanation on this?

[Kyle Yeomans]

The only only promising aspect was demarvan overshone return to the field and he's.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Going to have a healthy offseason.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yeah, he's going to have a health season. He's back. But I mean didn't get much from Marist. Not entirely on Marist coaching more than anything. The Jack Sanborn experiment. He held on to that far too long. Kenneth Murray experiment held on to that far too long. The Logan Wilson trade didn't pan out and it goes on from there. I Like Shemar James. I like his potential. He. He flashed in a couple of more than a couple of situations. But then he showed some rookie growing pains as well. I like the upside of Shamar James. I need to see Marisley afoul unleashed in year three as he was in year one. And demarvanovichon is on the upswing with, you know, being back from injury. But as far as the 2025 season as a whole, the linebacker core was an F for me.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yep, F. And the F stands for fundamentally bad. The biggest and most immediate issue that you have is linebacker coverage you had. I mean, there were at times solid tackling 10, 20 yards down the field. But that's why for me at least, draft wise, free agency wise, that's your most urgent and need. Over defensive end, over safety, over cornerback. One thing Matt Flutes had right is that you can scheme pressure, but you cannot scheme around linebackers who can't cover fixing linebacker. Find you some dogs in free agency. Add one. Stabilizing coverage safety. In my opinion, I think you're gonna see an identity change for the Dallas Cowboys defense. But linebacker was your Achilles heel all season long.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Bad, bad.

[Kyle Yeomans]

I knew a dog in the draft at linebacker.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Maybe his name's C.J.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Allen, possibly. Or free agency. I don't care.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Sunny Styles.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Go get a solidified dude.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Either one of those guys first round. I think I'd be all good.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yeah.

[Tommy Yarish]

Anthony Hill Jr. University of Texas is Z minus a grade. Can I can that become one? Is that the lowest one or F?

[Patrick No See Walker]

That was only when Zimmer was here because.

[Tommy Yarish]

And you could say Y minus.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yeah.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Eber Flutes.

[Tommy Yarish]

F minus. F. Yeah. It was bad, man.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Eber flunk.

[Tommy Yarish]

It was really bad.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Sorry, that's probably me.

[Tommy Yarish]

You know, I'll give Matt credit for this. Like, over the course of his career, he has had done a really good job of developing linebackers. Except for here. Yeah, I don't know what it was about here. It. Maybe it's personnel, maybe it was something different. But for whatever reason, it did not work here. But he does have a good track record of that. He was a linebacker, so to speak. Speed linebacker coach here. He did that in Indianapolis. He did that in Chicago. Chicago has some really good linebackers, but for whatever reason, it didn't work here. The most jarring thing for me, especially in the run game, was so many times we would see these linebackers engage in blocks and not give any effort to get off of them. It was like as soon as they got in a block, it was like, I'm it. Nothing I can do.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah, he tagged me.

[Tommy Yarish]

See you, Jamir Gibbs. It's like, no.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Did it get you there?

[Tommy Yarish]

It's like, can. You can get off the block, you can go towards the ball and try to make a play. And sometimes it just seemed like they were. They were disinterested and, you know, I don't want to call anybody out here. Obviously, these guys are NFL players. Yeah. You never question effort, but it just seemed like they, they, for whatever reason, wouldn't want to get off blocks. And it's going to be tough. You know, Maris Liavile for what he did in his last year at points when they turned him into a blitzer and he was really good. You didn't see as much of that this year. Shemar James, I mean, he made some plays here and there, but is that somebody that you're going to bank on long term for the future? So this is an area that the Cowboys definitely need to look at in free agency and through the draft. And that's why, you know, one of the conversations on the draft show we've been talking about so much is linebacker, linebacker, and the Sonny Styles from Ohio State, linebackers in this class from Georgia, Anthony Hill Jr. From Texas. So it's a position that, you know, not only do you need to throw bodies at it, but you need to throw bodies that can get the job done here for you. And then the Logan Wilson trade, too. I don't think Logan Wilson's a bad player. I just don't think he. He can run like he used to.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Well, they threw him into the fold immediately.

[Tommy Yarish]

Yeah.

[Patrick No See Walker]

And said, took him out of the fold. Get after it. And they're like, him, out of the fold. You didn't play well enough. Get out of there.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Sandboard, you get out there.

[Patrick No See Walker]

But it was. It just all didn't make any sense. And, yeah, I'm giving an F to linebackers. And it's funny, I had a conversation with a good friend of mine that works in collegiate athletics and he grew up in Indianapolis, was a huge Colts fan, and it was right after the news broke and I was talking with him, he said, yeah, like, I could have seen that coming. Because even at the end of his tenure at Indianapolis and people forget this, he's like, there was talks that he would not be brought back as the defensive coordinator in Indianapolis and he failed upwards and ended up taking the head coaching job with Chicago. I was like, this would have been a great conversation to have last off season when he was hired. Why didn't we have this conversation then. And he kind of chuckled about it. But it ended up working out the way that it did. Especially a linebacker where you anticipated development, you anticipated steps forward and you didn't get it. And that was what I think was most disappointing in terms of the downfall for Eber Fluss's tenure here in the one season is your linebackers were not good. And that was supposed to be the 1 area of expertise that was supposed to be good.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Now, arguably horrendous.

[Patrick No See Walker]

It was awful. F all the way.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Not arguably.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Now the. The big thing here is we are running out of time. I'm going to combine corners and safeties into just secondary grade. You guys are professionals. We gotta. We gotta get these grades out there. I'm gonna let you start here. Pat. What you got? Yeah, well, okay.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Let me say this because I was watching Seattle and I was watching Denver over the weekend and just looking at their safeties, particularly because I, I was so high up on drafting a safety in the first round. It's not that the safeties are bad here in Dallas. I just think that they weren't used as. Just that they weren't used as safety. Seattle safety shined in limited opportunities because their linebackers closed windows early. Denver safeties had strong coverage grades throughout the season because throws never went down the middle again. Them, they didn't have that luxury because guess what, guys? Linebackers were pretty darn good for both of those teams. Yeah, you could. You didn't have those easy throws over the moon for me. Safeties wise, F. But I think it's because of the way they were implemented throughout the season. Cornerbacks, C minus.

[Tommy Yarish]

Okay.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Quarterback C minus.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I think you have room to grow with your cornerback.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Room.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I really do.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Safeties, he lost one year to migraines. You had a lot of injury there. Malik Cook before the injury did not look like himself. He looked like himself after the injury. But then it cooled down toward the latter few games. Marquis Bell has some play. I don't know. Safeties, I'm going to give a C minus overall. You want it more there weren't terrible. Weren't great. Cornerbacks ready. Stewart showed some things. Keep ready Stewart in the building. Duron Bland injured again. Travon Diggs fiasco. Blah, blah. It's the cornerbacks outside of ready. Stewart, it's an F for me it's an F. So I mean you roll those two together. What I give a C to the C minus to the safeties. F. So I land on a D for the secondary.

[Patrick No See Walker]

And even when it comes to Stewart. I mean, how. I know he played significantly, but how much of an impact did he do to bring that grade?

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yeah, I'm just highlighting him as far as saying that he shows some promise enough to keep him on the team, but not to the point where he was able to carry that grade from an F to a higher grade from the cornerback's perspective. Perspective. So F for cornerbacks for me, C for the safeties. I land right on a D. Okay.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Literally opposite there.

[Tommy Yarish]

Yeah. If we're just doing the entire secondary, I'll give it an F. Russell Wilson, J.J. mcCarthy, Josh Johnson. I mean, if you're letting these guys throw for some of their best career days on you, it's just not a good year, man. It's really not. I agree with Patrick. I thought ready Stewart was a pleasant surprise this year. He was. He was better than I expected him to be.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Put him on safety.

[Tommy Yarish]

The Duron Bland injury is just brutal. You know, hopefully he gets. He's able to recover in time to have some of an off season and get to training camp fully healthy and. And be able to get back physically there. Obviously, the foot is really scary for, you know, players of that position and especially guys who need to cut and shift so much. And then. Savone Revel. What?

[Josh Rodriguez]

No, I'm just messing with that.

[Tommy Yarish]

Okay.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Not you at all.

[Tommy Yarish]

I thought I had a pause moment.

[Josh Rodriguez]

No.

[Tommy Yarish]

You know, the bright spot for me looking ahead for this corner room in the secondary is Savone Revel. That knee brace was really bugging him all year. And, you know, credit the kid for going out there and giving it effort to go and play, but he needs to get healthy this offseason. He needs to get that brace off of him because you can tell that it just hinders his movement and he's a step late or he doesn't have the same burst that he did on his tape. But he's Carolina. I think this kid's going to be a really good player for Dallas's secondary, but he needs to get that brace off first. He's going to have a healthy off season for the first time in a while, which is good. But, you know, your safeties, I agree with Josh. I don't think they were utilized the right way all the time. You know, when you've got Donovan Wilson and single high safety multiple times, that's just. That's just not right. And that's not. That's not going after Donovan Wilson. That's just not his. That's not his thing.

[Josh Rodriguez]

That is fundamentally not A good idea.

[Tommy Yarish]

No, that's a terrible idea. And sure enough, everybody would pick on it. And then Malik Hooker, when he was healthy, he was serviceable for you. I think he's got that veteran presence. I don't think he's a negative player.

[Josh Rodriguez]

For you, but he's not limited snapshot.

[Tommy Yarish]

He's not a difference maker for you and Wanye Thomas. I don't think he's a bad player either, but I don't think he's a difference maker for you. And at the safety position in the NFL now, I think you do need a difference maker to win in the secondary in general. You just need difference makers. Look at like you guys mentioned Seattle. So yeah, it gets a.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Get you a true coverage safety.

[Tommy Yarish]

Yeah.

[Josh Rodriguez]

That's all I ask.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Bobby and Chad made a point that I was sitting here thinking while Tommy was. Was regaling us with just beautiful takes. It was regaling.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Good job, man. You got a beautiful.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Oh brother. This guy I'm hanging.

[Patrick No See Walker]

He's awesome.

[Kyle Yeomans]

I was sitting here thinking and I think we can all agree it looks like not only with the brace, but it just does not look like Savone Revel is mentally confident in that knee yet. It feels like he's overthinking it. It feels like he's overcompensating in his movements. It's feel. It feels as if that he. He's still slightly concerned. So I'm glad to see that he will get a full offseason to get healthy and get that confidence built because his first offseason with the Cowboys was built in rehab. Right. So we'll see. But at this point, I agree with Bobby. I don't think he's confident in it.

[Tommy Yarish]

Yet and I think it's because of the race. Yeah, I mean, how many times this season did we see him get taken out of the game to adjust it and fix it and you know, maneuver it around?

[Kyle Yeomans]

Yeah, hell, we saw it in practice.

[Tommy Yarish]

I hate in practice.

[Patrick No See Walker]

I hate that it's an excuse, but it's. It's part of your. It's an extension of your game, an extension of your body for a certain player. He didn't do it.

[Tommy Yarish]

You're not have a training camp either.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah, he was thrown into the. The fire early on.

[Tommy Yarish]

So basically Savone Rebel was okay. The last person he guarded was, I don't know, a Marshall wide receiver.

[Patrick No See Walker]

It was Appalachian State.

[Tommy Yarish]

And then it's made that. Congratulations, you're going up against CD Lamb and George Pickens in practice. What I mean, talk about baptism by fire like that. That's. That's a lot to ask from a rookie on one knee.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Get after, dude.

[Tommy Yarish]

Yeah, I think.

[Kyle Yeomans]

I think he'll show some really good things in 2026. It was just a rough go with the rehab and who he had to kind of hit the ground running in the knee brace and he's just not mentally there right now. So full off season. Savone Revel signed me up for him being a starter in 26.

[Patrick No See Walker]

There you go. All right, that does it for us here on Talking Cowboys. Hope you had fun today. What was your grade? Oh, F. Yeah, for secondary.

[Kyle Yeomans]

Okay, cool.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Sorry, sorry. No, I needed to get up there. I need to hear it.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Glad you asked me. Yes. F for secondary across the board. It just wasn't good. All right, that is it for us here on Talking Cowboys. Next week we're going to spend all 45 minutes talking about how Josh won the pick em segments this year. He's going to have episode to be able to brag about that. Also, congrats. We do like celebrating everybody's achievements on this show. Your movie podcast was voted a best podcast of a reputable media source.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Absolutely. Discover pods. Check it out.

[Tommy Yarish]

Out.

[Josh Rodriguez]

There's a movie podcast that I'm on. I will not say it on Cowboys Airways, but follow me. Check it out.

[Patrick No See Walker]

Yeah, that's good.

[Kyle Yeomans]

The bottom line is there's just. There's too many movies.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I mean, that's what people say.

[Patrick No See Walker]

There are definitely too many movies. All right, that does it for us. See you later. For Patrick no see Walker. For Josh Rodriguez, Tommy Yarish, Chris Beam in the back. I'm Kyle Yeoman saying so long from Talking Cowboys. We'll see you next week. This has been a production of Dallas Cowboys.com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club that.