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- [00:00]
A
March is here and Uber Eats is delivering deals all month long. Score big savings on all the delicious food you need to fuel your sports fandom. Whether you're ordering in or hosting the whole crew, Uber Eats is serving up deals on wings, burgers, pizza, all from your favorite restaurants, plus snacks from top stores. Perennial powerhouse underdog. However the madness unfolds, these deals keep it going all month long. Visit the Uber Eats app for all the latest deals and start saving. Today. The following is a production of Dallas Cowboys.com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club. How about you? Cowboys Go Cowboys. This is Talking Cowboys streaming live from the Dallas Cowboys world headquarters at the Star in Frisco CD Lamb. It's on.
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B
Jake Ferguson. Touchdown. Keeps it and he bangs it in for the touchdown.
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A
And now your hosts, Isaiah Stanbach, Patrick Walker, Josh Rodriguez and Kyle Yeomans. It's an off season edition of Talking Cowboys presented by Black Rifle coffee company live from the Star in Frisco, Texas and the SWBC studios. Welcome in everybody. We've got Patrick no see Walker back in the building. Yes, he is back and we're going to talk about that leg here in a second after he was injured trying to save kittens out of burning trees and jumping out of the window of a burning building at the same time while also cradling a newborn infant just to try and save everybody. Light work in the moment, light work, easy stuff.
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B
You know, it's just that was just a usual day and you know, happened to step on an acorn and that's all it ever takes. Final destination type stuff. Final destination, not the acorn. Gotcha.
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A
We also have Anthony Dorset in the building.
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C
Hey, yeah, good morning. I'm happy to be here today with y' all fellas.
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A
Eight year NFL pro, you played four at corner, four at safety, you got the secondary on lock. You were a featured part of the players lounge podcast. Filling in today with Isaiah on Good morning Football. Josh is on vacation. Yeah, I know. He's literally on the screen right here, right there. So big time, as per usual. He'll probably call in at some point. That's how he like he misses us when he's out. We've got Paul Bas in the back.
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B
Yes, sir.
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A
Chris Beam. So we are making it happen here on the final week of March and owners meetings going on currently in Phoenix. A lot to get to but ad for those that may not know on our airwaves for talking Cowboys, kind of give us your background a little bit and kind of how you got to the Cowboys media scene over these Last couple of months.
- [02:44]
C
Okay. So my. My background, of course, is I played some football, as you mentioned. I played. Yeah. I played four years of Titans, four years of the Raiders, two Super Bowls, unfortunately, don't have a ring, but got the experience, of course. But, you know, like, I. This is a game that I've actually been around my entire life. Everybody said. A lot of people say that, but everybody don't mean that. I was born the same day of my dad's first college game. So from jump Street, I was on the University of Pittsburgh campus all the way through the Cowboys with the Broncos, of course, had my opportunity to go back to Pitt and then get into the league myself. So this is something that. This game is something that is very true and dear to me. And it's. It's a piece of family. It's family business more so than anything. But fortunately, I've been trying to get into some TV stuff and get into some podcasts and ran into a guy who was close to Mr. Jones one day, and he asked me. He's like, man, what are you doing? I was like, I'm trying to get into it. And one thing led to another, and I ended up in the building, and the rest is history.
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A
You look like you're ready for pit pro day, too. It already happened. You said you were watching a little
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C
bit of it looked like he was
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B
ready to work out Pitt pro day.
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C
So we went to. We were in town. We were in Pittsburgh last week. We're doing a deep blue segment on my dad.
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A
Yeah.
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C
So we went home to get some. Get some pieces done and get some interviews and things like that. Unfortunately for us, you know, it was right around the time spring ball and the pro day, so we got a chance to stop by there and check out some things, man. And needless to say, you know, I love my school. And right now, you know, of course, we talked about a little bit off campus. Kyle Lewis right now has the highest draft grade at the University of Pittsburgh right now. Third round guy maybe sneak into the second round. And he looked good. He looked good. And not to mention, we have a couple of DBs out there and some receivers that ran well, too, as well. But. But Kyle right now is a star. Coming out in. After he showed it to senior.
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A
Yeah. Kyle Lewis, just a dude. We've talked about him plenty on the draft show. He's. He's a guy for sure. Maybe not for Dallas, but. But definitely something to. To look at moving forward. How is your dad doing? For those that may not know, I see in the chat, there's a couple of question marks, but Tony Dorsett is your father. How is he doing, man?
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C
My dad is doing good. For everybody who doesn't know, like, you know, people always like, hey, man, can your dad do this? Can he? Can he? Like, hey, physically, the dude is a freak still to this day, you know what I mean? Unfortunately, the thing that CTE does the most and is taken away from him is his short term memory. But fortunately, he has the memory of every game he ever played. You know, he still remembers family, friends. It's nothing like that, but it's just one of those things where his short term memory is shot. Wow. So. But as far as everything else goes, man, he's in great health, great spirits. I applaud him every day. You know what I mean? I love my dad, so it's great that he is just, you know, like in the place that he is and being able to fight every day to just try to stay, you know, alive and just in a good place with fighting with ct. And I had the
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B
pleasure of working with a lot of people on the Deep Blue documentary for your dad a couple years ago. And I just can't tell you, he's such a bright spirit and with such a big heart, and he's always smiling and he's always uplifting those around him. So, you know, of all the things I've done in this job, in this career field, that was one of my favorite also because. And this is not simply because you're sitting at the table. Anyone who knows me knows Tony Dorsett is like my number three favorite cowboy and NFL player of all time. So being able to work with him on that documentary, and it's one of those things where people say, don't meet your heroes. Tony Dorsett disproves that in a big way. That's one of the heroes. You would love to come in contact.
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A
All right, who are one and two?
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B
One is Emmett.
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A
Okay.
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B
And two is Michael Irvin. Yes.
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A
Okay.
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B
Yeah. Emmett. Mike. And then, I don't know.
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A
I love me some Tony Dorset.
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C
Emmett and Michael heard he would have. It would have been a totally different thing out here today.
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B
Okay. But you have to put mine in. In the. I'm gonna age myself here. Okay. So 1980, baby.
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A
Sure.
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B
Right. So as a 1980 baby, my first go at the Cowboys would have been early 80s, mid-80s to late 80s. That's Tony Dorsett. So before there was Emmett, for me, there was Tony Dorsett and 99 yard, you know, touchdown runs and things like that. Tony Dorsett was one of the reasons I dug in my heels as a young boy, as a young Scrap Cowboys fan. So yes, absolutely.
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A
Can't dig in your heels today, though.
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B
I can dig in one.
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A
One heel.
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B
I can dig in one heel.
- [07:10]
A
Good to have you back, Pat. Good to have you for the first time, Anthony, on the show. Really appreciate you guys and thank you. Let's get into a little bit of news and notes. There's a lot going on, owners meetings. We had both Brian Schottenheimer and Stephen Jones yesterday on, on the the Phoenix side of things, talking to the media. Do you have your news and notes?
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B
I do. Let's first start with with some transactions. The Cowboys did agree to terms and finalize a deal with cornerback Darion Kendrick. So he is in the building. Cowboys needed to address the cornerback position as early as free agency. Were not able to do so in couple of waves. So now they're prepping for the draft, but they expect to see something out of Darion Kendrick competing in OTA's minicamp individually training camp. They move on from Oso Odigi Zul, which we'll talk about later, via trade. They move on from Solomon Thomas via trade. And now you're looking at them bringing in a free agent and they got Jay Thalia, the second year guy. Who else is going to attack that position? Well, it's going to be Jonathan Bullard for now. Cowboys sign him on a deal, defensive lineman Jonathan Bullard. So those are going to be the two primary transactions. Couple of. Well, one notable guy I should say that was here last year, Corey Ballantyne, practice squad guy. He's going to have to really sharpen his teeth here this off season to try to make some waves. But you know, this is a cornerback's room that needs as much competition as it can get. Circling over to, you know, news and notes from.
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A
Can we, can we talk about the Buller thing real quick?
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B
Let's do it.
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A
32 years old. He's going to be playing in his 11th NFL season. He was drafted by the bears in the third round back in 2016. So he's been in the league as long as Dak Prescott. He was part of the Dak Prescott draft Ezekiel Elliott draft back in 2016. What does that give you on the defensive side of the ball? Because he's another big body that you can rely on. And when everybody wants to talk about this 3, 4 switch, right, even though it's really multiple and you're going to run four, four man fronts, you're going to Run three man fronts. How does Jonathan Bullard kind of fit into that mold?
- [09:10]
C
Well, you know, being that he's a bigger body guy and these are the type of guys that as we transition from the Cowboy, I'm sorry, as the Cowboys transition from this 43 to this 34 mode forth being able to play with the four guys too, you're going to have to have guys who are versatile. Okay. So you're going to have to have some big versatile guys up there. And of course with him being as big as he is and, and then being in the league for as long as he has been, he's played in probably every defensive front that you can imagine, whether it be a 43 or 3 4, whatever it is. But then he also brings some leadership and some and some veteran know into the building too as well. So you know, the Cowboys right now they, they pretty much addressed the D line with Quinn and Kenny Clark last year and, and those two guys being so solid. But as you transition, you're going to have to have depth, you know what I'm saying? So right now what we're seeing is of course with the signing of the corner and these guys that they're bringing on, they're just looking for some depth. And you also got to have bodies for camp too as you get ready to go in there. So the transition is going to be getting new guys in new body types, just like you said, getting guys ready for OTAs just to see what we're going to have, what type of chemistry they can build. And there's going to be a lot of different names that you, I'm sure that we're going to be hearing over these next few weeks, going into training camp and everything else like that. But he definitely has some depth to the D line.
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B
And speaking of versatility, let's look at the cornerbacks room for example. Not only did they bring in Darion Kendrick, obviously they got Kobe Durant. Yeah. As well. And this was a topic of conversation for a lot of my followers who were asking me when I, when I put out my scouting report on Kobe Durant because we had the open market series on Dallas Cowboys.com.com ahead of free agency opening up. And Kobe Durant was one of the guys I listed. My scouting report on him was that yes, he can play boundary but he'll likely be projected as a nickel guy here with the Cowboys. Even though his last two seasons were at boundary for the Rams. A lot of Cowboys fans pointed that out, said hey, no seed last year, 100% snaps at the boundary where you I'm telling you, based on what Christian Parker has been saying, the tea leaves we're reading and the whispers we're hearing from upstairs, Kobe Durant feels as if he's going to be nickel. Now bring it forward to just to
- [11:14]
A
add to that, when we were talking with him in the conversation the actual interview is online. Nicole Hutcherson did it. It's on Dallas Cowboys.com she asked him about it, but we also asked him about it previously. Said I'm more than comfortable playing in the playing in the slot. He's going to play snaps in the slot. Is he going to go 100% outside? No, I don't think so. Is how much is he going to play in the slot? I don't know, but it's going to be a certain amount. Like he's going to see time in the slot.
- [11:44]
B
It will be enough and I'm projecting here it will be enough time spent in the slot that you will probably label him a nickel. Back on the depth chart right? Fast forward to yesterday, a couple days ago, Stephen Jones, Jerry Jones, they're at the owner's meetings. There's they're talking shouts out to Tommy Yaris. He's out there, you know, boots on the ground doing some hard work. But something they said just basically affirmed my projection. They basically said they made a mistake, quote unquote, with Daron Bland being moved to nickel. That was part two of the mistake. Part one was allowing Jordan Lewis to leave the building. Once they allowed Jordan Lewis to leave, they had to fill the void. They thought letting Jordan Lewis leave, they could look right at Daron Bland and say, hey, just back to nickel. It didn't work out well for them. They're not looking to do that again in 2026. So you're going to have Savone Revel, second year guy, first healthy offseason. We'll see what he can be on the Christian Parker, Ryan Smith and those that new coaching staff and he's going to be played opposite by Daron Bland. To your question. I'll I'll pose another one because you have to factor in Ready Stewart along with Kobe Durant and you're probably going to see Jalen Thompson drop down and take some of those nickel reps as well.
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C
And so that was going to be my thing too as well. You got when you look at Jalen Thompson and what he's been able to do over the past few years in there owner, he played everything from the nickel to the backside safety and the box as well. And he showed that he can blitz and he can cover from that area, too. The thing with the two corners coming back, you know, Rebel was hurt last year, Bland was hurt last year, and they're both coming off of previous injuries too, as well. So any type of depth right now that they can get, and then you have to honestly give Revel some competition over there.
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B
Yeah.
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C
All right. You know, Durant, Bland has pretty much proven himself over the past few years and he's had some good years, but with Rebel coming in last year, he took some bumps and bruises. And so, like, you really want to see what he's going to actually be, you know what I mean? And so with his size and he's more of like, I would say more of a boundary corner the way that he played last year. So there's the competition between him and. I'm sorry, what was his name again?
- [13:43]
B
Yeah, Revel. Kobe Durant.
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C
Kobe Durant. Yeah. So that's going to be a good look in camp to see what those two guys are going to do. But that room definitely needs some depth. And being that they weren't able to go out there and find, you know, and I'm still. I don't want to take anything away from Plan and Rebel, but I still think the Cowboys need to go out and find a shutdown corner.
- [14:02]
B
Yeah.
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C
You know, so I think that might
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A
be what they do in the draft.
- [14:05]
B
I was going to say. I don't disagree. I'm not. These moves don't put me off of a cornerback in the draft. No, especially because. And you make a great point, Anthony, in that Duron Bland and Savone Revel, they're coming off of injury. Duron Bland is coming off of a recurring injury. This is the same foot that had him on season ending IR in 2024. It landed him on season ending IR 2025.
- [14:27]
A
Yeah.
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B
Any football player who has a foot issue, you're going to be concerned about, but particularly if you're playing a skill position that's required to break in. Break. Exactly. Plant and drive. So I do have capability, the ability of Duron Bland. I don't. I don't question the availability. Now I have a question.
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A
It is. Well, and that's. That's part of the cornerback room as a whole.
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B
That's.
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A
That's what we've talked about all the way through is it's a, it's a room full of medical red flags at the moment, and that's where you have to invest with clean bodies. And that's what Durant has been. He's been versatile, played all 17 games. He's been durable is the word I was looking for. Throughout his career, he hasn't spent a ton of time on the sidelines. I think Kendrick kind of fills that same role as well. Kendricks fills that same role. I want to see them continue to add. And I think they will. I really do. I think the way that this draft is working out, they're going to have a look at either their number one or number two corner and their number one or number two safety at 12, and then we'll see what happens.
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C
See, I ain't.
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B
I agree with you on the number one or number two corner.
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C
I think the other one, I think.
- [15:32]
B
I think they're off on safety as far as any type of early or mid round pick.
- [15:36]
A
If it's Caleb Downs At 12, I can tell you right now he would be a cowboy.
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B
Yeah. If we want to play.
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A
What if Dylan Thienaman could be a cowboy? I very much. You're telling me that Jalen Thompson and Malik Hooker are taking you off of me, my name.
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C
You can't forget about PJ Lock. Okay. So first of all, also, don't forget about PJ Lock.
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A
I don't think PJ Lock is going to take away your possibility.
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B
I think it's the definition of PJ
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A
Lock and Jalen Thompson, if you love the safety.
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C
What I see in Jalen Thompson, unless it's Caleb down, feels a lot of gaps right now.
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A
I love Jalen Thompson.
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C
All right, so with that being said, like, if he comes in and he fills the gaps the way that he can, that allows you to go out there and look at a different thing for safety. I don't. I don't see them going high to go get a safety. Now, of course, if a Caleb Downs is there.
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A
Yeah.
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C
At 12. Yeah. I mean, that makes perfect sense. But like, let's be realistic. Like, he's. They're picking him to go anywhere between five and nine. So with that being said, like, I'm not even looking at him being there. All right. And so without him being there, without that type of talent being there, like, still got to address that middle backer.
- [16:40]
B
Oh, yeah.
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C
Okay. Like that, that. That needs to be addressed. And so with that being said. There, there, you. And you can't just bring in just a guy. You can't bring in any Jags. All right.
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B
We got to go out there twice last year.
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C
Okay. Right.
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B
Kenneth Murray and Jack Sam.
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A
So.
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C
Right. So you got to go out there and you either got to find a guy that is going to come in right now, there's a solid player. Okay. Of course, if he's a young dude, he's going to have to be off the charts right now.
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B
Yeah.
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C
But if it's a vet, it's going to have to be somebody who's already proven themselves, because with that position, we got leadership on the D line. Okay. Already bringing in the safety, Thompson, like that. You got some leadership back there in the secondary now, too, as well. You got to get some. You got to get somebody in the middle right there that's going to command that defense, too, as well.
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B
If.
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A
If I had to do a mock draft right now and what I think could happen, I think mansour Delane, the LSU corner, is the pick at 12, and I think C.J. allen, the linebacker from. Go ahead and say it.
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B
I can say it.
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A
Yeah. Go ahead and say go Dogs from Georgia is the picket 20. That's. That's where I see both of those happening. When it comes to the safety position, if Downs falls, he's still the picket 12. If Thieman is there at 20, I think he's the pick at 20. And that's where I say you. You're going to have the number one or number two corner on your list. And Delane is one of those GU guys. I'm not sure where Javon McCoy out of Tennessee fits yet because he's also medical red flag guy, and we'll see what happens. His pro day is literally in a couple of minutes. Like, I think he's on the field now or close there to it in Knoxville, and that's going to tell us a lot. However, safety I don't think is completely off the board. Whenever it's two players and it's Dylan Thienaman and it's Caleb Downs, those two guys, I think if they're on the board in those specific spots, then I think you're going to see a legitimate conversation, even with what they've added in the safety room. Does that make sense? Yeah, because that's. I completely agree with everything you're saying. Filling holes for Jalen Thompson and the versatility, the inside, the outside, the nickel possibility, all of that is good. I also don't want to shy away from saying this is the best defensive player that's on our board. Let's not go away from that. And I feel like Thienaman and Downs are going to fill that role at 12. And at 12, I'm with you on
- [18:47]
B
downs when it comes to Thienam, and I Feel like if you're on the clock at 12 and Downs is gone, I'm looking at it as. I love that. I love the kids skill set, I really do. But I feel like, and I've said this a bunch of times, so everyone who follows talking Cowboys knows hi to the family. I built my defense front to back to back. Okay. Linebackers play in front of my safeties and cornerbacks. And you're solving the defensive line situation. I think you still need another edge rusher there. Right. So if you can get a primo edge rusher, a blue chip edge rusher, do that. But. But for me, linebacker, because if your defensive line is playing well, that's wonderful. That's one aspect of it. Let's say you do get a safety who's not Caleb Downs because again, if he's there, you take him. But if it's a non Caleb down safety, you take that with the 12th overall pick. You're sitting there still looking at the, the middle, the hole in your defense and all teams are going to do is attack that hole in the middle
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A
of the defense as they should.
- [19:41]
B
And then what's going to happen? Your safeties are going to now have to crash down more often and then they're going to go over the top.
- [19:45]
A
Yeah, I think you have to come away with at least a starting linebacker from this point forward, whether that's in the draft and it's CJ Allen or it's Sonny Styles. Sonny Styles changes the whole conversation.
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B
Also 12.
- [19:59]
A
If he falls to 12, which I don't think is going to happen. If he falls to 12, that changes the whole conversation.
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B
Then do it.
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A
Go ahead and do it. Let's get out of there. Let's see what happens. Even I would even have that conversation with him or Downs. Even though I love Downs Downs more as a prospect, I would still have that conversation.
- [20:15]
B
Sonny Styles, Caleb Downs, water gun to your head.
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A
I would still take Downs.
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B
Okay.
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A
But I would have the conversation.
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B
Okay.
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A
I would talk about it. All right, let's take our first break. When we come back, let's hear from Stephen Jones and from Brian Schottenheimer. Both of them spoke yesterday in Phoenix during the NFL owners meetings. Plus, we're going to break down person by person, the head coach's photo from the. Oh, no. I'm just kidding. We'll be back with more from Brian Schottenheimer, Stephen Jones with Talking Cowboys right after that.
- [20:46]
B
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- [22:44]
B
How's it going? You see that Cowboys game? Oh, I watched.
- [22:48]
C
Been seeing some good things.
- [22:49]
B
Totally. They have some talent. Yup.
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A
Some great talent.
- [22:53]
B
And they got some fight. Hoping this is the year. Me too. Oh, I'm Cody by the way. I'm traveling.
- [22:59]
A
Travis.
- [22:59]
B
Nice to meet you Travis. Go Cowboys. Go Cowboys.
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C
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Back to Talking Cowboys Back here on Talking Cowboys, presented by Black Rifle Coffee Company, the official coffee of the Dallas Cowboys. Back with Patrick no Walker, Anthony Dorsett. I'm Kyle Yomitz with Paul Bastidis in the back. This segment is brought to you by Invisalign, the official SM the Dallas Cowboys. You got a smile there. You guys get smiling.
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B
Yeah, you got to smile the camera,
- [24:07]
A
show them the pearly whites. There you go. Good stuff. We were talking a lot about what we would do at 12 and 20 and we're going to have more draft debates as time goes on. I mean, this is the whole month of April. This is our final March, March show. The whole month of April is going to be draft conversation. I can't wait. Especially with two first round picks. It can be exciting. But there was kind of an echoed sentiment yesterday from the owner's meeting in Philadelphia, or, excuse me, in Phoenix, where Stephen Jones and Brian Schottenheimer both said similar things but in different ways. We've liked what we've done so far, but we're not done yet. And from a Brian Schopenheimer standpoint, it made it seem as if they're not done yet because they're still shopping, they're still trying to make moves, they're still trying to do certain things. And then tell me if I'm wrong for inferring this from Stephen Jones and what he was talking about, about his not done yet is let's see what the draft does and then we'll figure it out from there.
- [25:07]
B
That's not how he's intending it to be received. He is intending it to be received as they're still working the phones, they are still making calls. Two teams, of course, as everyone knows, I'm unable to say what teams and what players, but I can tell you that they are in search of a linebacker. So keep an eye out for a possible trade either before the draft or during the draft.
- [25:28]
A
Talk about that situation so bad.
- [25:30]
B
I know, but they are, they are on the phone zone talking about the one down the line back happens to
- [25:35]
A
be in palm trees. And there's a, there's a guy that wore teal last year for his team, you know, okay, we can't talk about,
- [25:42]
B
but I can tell you that they're looking at the position as a possible trade going into the Draft or maybe draft night, day one, maybe day two. So we'll see how that pans out. But that's not the only position they're making calls about. So. Well, Stephen Jones is saying you can actually take literally. There's really nothing to infer from that particular. Because I know that we work here and we cover the Cowboys and we know there's a lot of double speak and triple speak and you're trying to get through the word spaghetti and read between the lines. But every once in a while it's straight talk. And based on what I've been hearing around the building as far as the calls they've been making, that is actually a straight talk coming from Stephen Jones.
- [26:20]
A
Here's the actual quote. At the end of the day, I think we checked a lot of boxes, Jones said. I think we really improved our football team. It felt really good about what we. Or I felt really good about what we accomplished. I think we were between trades, between negotiations, between signing our own guys, doing things that we felt were needed. I think we got a lot done. And that's where I think the. The quote is straightforward.
- [26:45]
B
Yeah.
- [26:45]
A
And I see there we're used to trying to read in between the lines with these certain things. And I have something else that he said later in a specific conversation that I'm going to kind of let our talking Cowboys family in on a secret. Secret in a little bit. But this quote specifically is in past tense, which makes me think.
- [27:04]
B
I get what you're saying.
- [27:04]
A
Maybe they're. And it was all in past tense. At the end of the day. I think we checked a lot of boxes. We improved our football team. What we accomplished. All of it is past tense.
- [27:16]
B
I really think that's just.
- [27:17]
C
I don't think that means it doesn't working.
- [27:19]
B
Yeah. I think it's half empty, half full. How do you view the bottle? Is it a 6 or the 9? Because basically. Basically I interpret that as he's saying that this is where we stand. But looking back, he loves what they did here, here, here, here and here. He never said that they were done. He never said eyes on the draft exclusively. He was just itemized.
- [27:40]
C
Right. You know, I see it too.
- [27:42]
A
Definitely, like, see it that way.
- [27:43]
C
We've been busy. We haven't been. We've been a little bit busier than we normally are. We've done a lot of things as far as with players and coaches that I'm impressed with, that I feel good about. And I think that he's just more so like, just like what you said we're just still stacking it, though, but we're not done working yet at all. So I don't take it like, as a past tense thing. I just think look at him saying, like, hey, with 2020 hindsight so far, we've been doing good since we're.
- [28:08]
A
We were talking about the linebacker position a little bit, too. What do you think about this quote from Stephen? I think it was well written that we made some runs. We didn't get it done, but obviously that's something that's still. We haven't checked that box yet. We still got a big draft ahead of us and we'll continue to look at other opportunities that might present themselves. How do you interpret that in terms of the linebacker position?
- [28:30]
B
Again, straight talk.
- [28:31]
C
That's it.
- [28:32]
B
He's just basically recapping. It's basically what he's doing. We know that they went hard at a couple of linebackers in the first wave of free agency, and we know that one of those linebackers, Nicole Dean, chose to go with the Las Vegas Raiders because of more locker room familiarity. He's basically reunited with several players that he played with at University of Georgia, not unlike when he played for the Eagles, he played with several guys from the University of Georgia. That just seems to be what he wants. But the offer the Cowboys had on the table for Nicole was very comparable. It was right there neck and neck. And he said it himself, it was 51, 49. He chose the Raiders. So Cowboys have been active in trying to get that linebacker, but they haven't gotten it yet. So now we're in the. I don't want to say the bargain bin portion of free agency, but let me just say we're in the bargain bin portion of free agency, and you're likely going to have to strike a trade to get someone who's going to be an immediate impact on the roster. You hope that when you draft a rookie, of course, the hope is that the rookie can come in and explode from. From year one. There are exceptions to that where it actually happens, but more often than not, it's a year two, year three deal.
- [29:37]
C
I agree. And then for me, there are certain guys out there that are free agents as well. Right now, I don't know if I could speak on him, but I think Bobby Wagner, isn't he a free agent?
- [29:49]
B
Yeah, he is.
- [29:49]
C
All right, so can we talk about him?
- [29:51]
B
Yeah, yeah. Anybody who's not under contract.
- [29:53]
C
Okay. So now with Bobby, like, of course he's up in years, but the leadership that he brings and what he could teach. And so if you go out there and you strike a deal with a guy like a Bobby Wagner who come in, give some respect to the defense immediately, but then you still go out and use a draft pick to bring a young guy in. Now you got a dude like Bobby Wagner who's been a consistent all Pro Pro Bowler, Walter Payton, man of the year, great for the locker room, great for the community as a leader, and also someone who could teach a young dude who's coming up, if that be the case. All right. And so that being said, like, I've looked at a guy like that, and that's the type of dude that if the Cowboys are actually going to do this in free agency or through the trades or whatever the case may be, you need a guy like that to come in here and solidify that middle.
- [30:37]
B
Absolutely. And I did list Bobby Wagner as one of the candidates for the Cowboys in the open market series for all the reasons that you just said. Yes, he's. He's getting up there in age, but I still think he can play at a high level. Can he play at the elite level that he's become accustomed to? Maybe in flashes in spots, maybe not consistently, but he can consistently be better than most of what you have on the roster right now. Outside of a healthy demarvion overshone. I think that a healthy demo changes this whole conversation. However, you can't bank on.
- [31:06]
A
Yeah, I was about to say, I wish we could rely on.
- [31:08]
B
Can't bank on that. So you got to address the position.
- [31:10]
A
Yeah, I, I would love to add Bobby Wagner with another big advantage. You draft a player in the first round, whether that's Sonny Styles, CJ Allen, whatever it ends up being. You draft a linebacker in the first round and then you turn around and you pair him with Bobby Wagner. You talk about the knowledge and the type of. In Wagner. I don't even know if he would start as a reserve player in that situation. It depends on really how ready the linebacker is out of college. He could be a rotational linebacker or he could be your starting linebacker. Either way, he's going to instill a lot to the second level and has been around it and has seen everything that a young linebacker is going to see. That would be Sean Lee teaching Leighton Vanderesh. You know, it would be something like that again and I would be down for anything of that sort. And I think it would pair well together. One other thing that Stephen did talk about or tried not to talk about was George Pickens.
- [32:09]
B
I answered your question.
- [32:10]
A
He did try and answer the question, which, I mean, to be fair, he did answer the question initially and then decided not to talk about it. But he was very uncommittal when it came to the George Pickens conversation and what the negotiations have looked like. Remember, Brian Schottenheimer was asked about the same thing in that morning press conference. And Shotti had said, we had had conversations with George Pickens. Doesn't mean that that's negotiations. Doesn't mean that that's with the agents. That doesn't mean anything involved. That there. One thing I will say is usually in my time covering the team and this is where this. This is staying between us as the talking Cowboys family, the time that I've spent with the team, the more quiet the front office is about a certain situation, the closer they are to something happening. And so just because he says what he said yesterday, shut down the question and said, I already answered your question to Clarence Hill of the the DLLs Cowboys side of things. That doesn't mean that nothing is happening. That doesn't mean that there's a standstill. That doesn't mean anything when it comes to a negative for George Pickens. That all that might be mean the complete opposite. It might mean they're close and they don't want to mess anything up and they don't want to negotiate through the media. They don't want to do that kind
- [33:32]
B
of back because how'd that work out with Michael?
- [33:34]
A
Because it did not work out well with. But in a lot of these other contracts, CD specifically is one that reminds me, or I'm reminded of every time it comes around. The CD deal a couple years ago that was in a training camp pulled out. It was in a preseason when they were close. They shut down everything in terms of the media, in terms of what they were trying to do publicly. So this may not be that conversation, but just keep that in mind is all I'm trying to sprinkle it out there. Just because they don't want to talk about about it doesn't mean that they aren't close or they aren't working on.
- [34:09]
B
I agree. And the thing is, is we live in a world where, you know, so much information is so readily available that when something goes quiet on. On any particular situation or topic, then people start to wonder, oh, well, this means the bad thing. And they get pessimistic. I'm seeing a lot of Cowboys fans come to me directly on my social media accounts and they're saying, well, no, see, you know, we haven't we haven't heard about any other teams approaching George Pickens. Does this work in favor of the Cowboys? My response is always the same. Just because you didn't hear it doesn't mean the tree didn't fall. Yeah, right. At the end of the day, not every point of contact between a player, a player's agent and a team will make it to NFL Network or to ESPN or to one of the beat writers. Sometimes it just doesn't have enough traction yet. I'm simply saying that to say to. To support your point in that when Stephen Jones says he doesn't want to talk about it anymore, that doesn't mean it's a worst case scenario. It could just simp mean that, hey, we're working on this and we don't want to say even the slightest thing that can be misconstrued because let's just be honest. Let's keep it a whole book. This is the Cowboys. Every national media outlet, and even some of the smaller ones, they're looking to take something that Jerry or Steven says about this Pickens thing, or they're looking to take anything that Pickens himself says about it and turn it a different way. And then once that that quote goes viral, now you're doing more trying to put out a fire than you are negotiating a deal. So I think there's been progress. I think there will continue to be progr. The Cowboys continue to have 98% of the leverage in this situation, and as long as they get the deal done before mid July, all is well.
- [35:44]
C
I think that a valuable lesson was learned last year, and I think that times are changing. I think that the Cowboys are recognizing that too as well. It used to be a time where Newey says they put people in the blender. Well, you know, that doesn't work for everybody. And I think that they're starting to understand that, like this new generation of players a little bit more temperamental. And so that being said, you know, like these negotiations for players, of course, you know, we love this game through and through. It's a genuine love. So this is an emotional time for a player to be going through. It's hard to separate the business from the emotion of football.
- [36:18]
A
When you're a football player, everybody's still a human.
- [36:19]
C
Exactly. So with that being said, like, it's better to keep it close to the cuff than there is to be out there saying a bunch of stuff anyway. And so I think that the whole thing last year with Micah, in the beginning, it never felt right to me, and me just Being new in the building, I was like, okay, well, maybe I need to learn something. But the way I'm looking at this, this is not looking like he's going to be here. But everybody kept saying, oh, no, this is just part of the process. And I think that a valuable lesson was learned last year, and these guys got the same agent anyway.
- [36:47]
A
Yeah.
- [36:48]
C
So you gotta learn the lesson. Yeah. You can't. You don't want to. Want to walk on eggshells, but at the same time, you gotta be careful.
- [36:55]
A
That's a great point. Because everything that. That I'm talking about is what they've done in the past with their process of, oh, they're shutting down because they might be close. They could be. The very, very thing you're talking about is we've learned our lesson. Maybe we should just chill out a little bit and make sure that things in business gets handled along the way. So it is a conversation back and forth, and it's one that'll continue to evolve every time somebody's in front of a microphone, because they're going to be asked about.
- [37:20]
B
And you know what's funny is, and I use this phrase a lot, pick your struggle, folks. You got to pick your struggle. Because so often fans pose the question, why does Jerry and Steven have to speak on every single thing? Why can't they just, you know, in front of a microphone, defer, say, I'm not going to say anything. And now they're not. When it comes to one of the biggest or the biggest contract negotiation they currently are working right now, they don't have anything to say. And those same people are like, give us something. Tell us something. Yeah, you got to pick struggle. Which one do you want? But to your point, I believe they learned the lesson, especially with Pickens having the same agent as Michael Parsons. They look at what went wrong there, and they're basically looking at David and saying, you know what? We have nothing to say to them. As long as you guys have nothing to say to them, we have nothing to say to them. And we. We will continue talking.
- [38:05]
C
And I think that we've. We've seen a. Well, we haven't seen it, but we've heard a small piece about what a disgruntled George Pickens is like in certain situations. The way that Pittsburgh handled him and the way that whole thing went down over there, and it just shined a whole different light on him. And fortunately for him, he was able to come here and throw that shade off and step into the sunlight for real. But I think that, you know, just like we said. Just to reiterate, I think the Cowboys are moving in a better way. I think they learned some lessons.
- [38:32]
A
Ye and man, if if you've seen anything on social media from the Cowboys recently, George Pickens is still hanging out with all.
- [38:41]
B
Yeah, he and CD Lamb are still hanging out.
- [38:45]
C
Working out CD on the boat this morning. Yeah, like somewhere it looked like he was in Italy.
- [38:52]
B
George was with him. I saw a picture of I think him and George. He and George. It was water behind them or whatever. But to your point, man, yeah, CD and George and George and there was no Brandon.
- [39:02]
A
Anyways, we're going to take our second break. When we come back, we are going to grade what the Cowboys offense and defense look like at this point in the off season as if it's Madden. We're going to give our 0 through 99 Madden Gray to the Cowboys offense. Cowboys defense as it stands right now. More talking Cowboys right after this.
- [39:24]
B
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C
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B
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A
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C
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B
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A
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- [42:57]
B
Let's do it.
- [42:58]
A
Everybody plays Madden. Anthony, you play a little bit of mad.
- [43:01]
C
Played my son yesterday.
- [43:02]
A
Did you, did you win?
- [43:03]
C
He turned the game off.
- [43:07]
B
You got a rage quitter, man.
- [43:11]
A
That's okay. We'll get back at you'll get to finish it soon. But when it comes to Madden, of course it's 0 to 99 and I want to get you to after you give me the grade, give me a plus or minus. What are they up or down from your thought process from last year Overall in Madden right now, according to some random website online, they are an 81 overall. Cowboys are an 81 as a team. Okay, so just as that reference, what would you grade the offense?
- [43:39]
B
Well, I think the offense is carrying that 81, so I think the offense, you keep George Pickens in the building, you're going to get it from the tight end position. You would hope to get another step forward from Jake Ferguson. I believe you will get another step forward from Brevispan forward. So I think you'll be more than solid at tight end. Running back Javante, you got him locked in Jaden Blue. Hopefully he takes strides. Phil Mafa, he's back there ready to compete as well. I still think there's something to be done behind Javante, but we'll talk about that another time. Quarterback that's in the bag. My concern is the offensive line. Not Tyler Booker, not Cooper Bibi, not Tyler Smith. Terrence Steele is more than solid as a starter, struggles in certain situations. Tyler Smith, Tyler Guyton, I'm sorry, can't stay on the field. Offensive line takes him down. I'm going to give them, let me give this offense. They can put up points, man, I'll be, I'll be modest. Let's give them an 85.
- [44:38]
A
85.
- [44:39]
B
85.
- [44:39]
A
That's lower than I thought you would go.
- [44:42]
B
They're capable of being in the 90s.
- [44:44]
C
Okay.
- [44:44]
B
But every week we didn't see them, you know, be a 92, 93 overall rated offense. Every week we've seen them be a 95 rated offense here and there, but we've also seen where they're, you know, two whole quarters that they can't string together a touchdown. But we red zone issues things.
- [45:01]
A
I like it.
- [45:01]
B
So 85, what would be that?
- [45:03]
A
What would that be? Plus or minus from the end of last year. They haven't really done much.
- [45:09]
B
No, right. Because wide receiver is still intact. Titan is still intact. Intact. Javante's lockdown, so still intact. Not been much change. Yeah, not been much change. Yeah. Offensive line are seeing some pieces move, but not added a quarterback. Yeah, but QB2, it's a QB2 battle, right. It's not much different from last year, so I think it's even. Yeah, they break even.
- [45:34]
A
Fair.
- [45:35]
C
I give it even and then I'll say their score being. I, I mean he hit nail on head with everything. Offensive line is the only true question. I like Mafa being back into the fold because what I saw from him last year in the preseason, I thought that he played behind his pass and when you look at him and Javante both running downhill. They got some, two punishing backs like that, but with the offensive line having the question at, at the tackle position with steel. And I'm gonna say I give him a, I give him an 86. I, I go one point above.
- [46:09]
B
But he did the price is right thing.
- [46:12]
C
But, but so far this offseason, I, I think they're just, it's, it's still, even from what they did last year. Like, I, I can't say I can't give them a check, can't give them a minus. I think they're right there in the middle.
- [46:21]
B
Okay.
- [46:22]
A
I, I was going to think, or at least my thought was 87.
- [46:26]
B
Okay.
- [46:26]
A
I mean you've got.
- [46:27]
B
Now you do the prices.
- [46:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You've got two of the best wide receivers in football. Assuming, assuming George Pickens plays on the tag or gets a deal done.
- [46:37]
B
Right.
- [46:37]
A
Where I still think and believe that he's going to be here. So you have two of those guys. You have a Pro bowl caliber tight end in Jake Ferguson. Not that he really was a Pro bowl season in 2025, even though he got the nod for it. I think he's Pro bowl caliber. Going back to 2023, we saw bits and pieces of that. I just want to see more consistency. And right now your quarterback could be argued to be a top five quarterback in the NFL. Top seven, if you really want to argue. He's one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL and anytime you have that, you've got a shot. So I would say 87. And it also, I think it, it'll really flip when we talk about the defensive side. If they're an 81 overall as a team and if we believe that or not, if they're an 81 overall, that's kind of a mid level team. That means if they're an 87. 7 and you wanted to hit the median on the opposite side, the defense would be a 74, which I think sounds right in my opinion. Right.
- [47:35]
C
84. A little bit lower.
- [47:37]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:38]
C
Because.
- [47:39]
A
Or, sorry, 74, 75. What. It may even be lower than that.
- [47:44]
B
So I wouldn't, I wouldn't have them. I, I wouldn't have them at 81 overall in the first place.
- [47:50]
A
So the team.
- [47:51]
B
Yeah, because I would give the 85. 5 to the offense, but the defense, it's kind of twofold. Number one, you were abysmal last season. Like franchise worst last season.
- [48:02]
A
Absolutely.
- [48:02]
B
You made changes, clean house for the most part. Christian Parker and Chidera and all these guys coming in, Ryan Smith and Derek Ansley and Mark Dix, I think you got the right coaching staff. And then you look at the players we just led off the the show talking about they have needs at linebacker, huge glaring hole there. They have needs at cornerback. Trying to figure that, that out. Yeah. So did you take a step back at cornerback? You did you take a step back at linebacker? Did you take a step forward? All of this gets jumbled in my head and at the end of the day for the defense, I spit out a 69.
- [48:36]
A
Wow.
- [48:37]
B
I spit out a six. Right now pause because yeah, right now, right now, 67. I haven't seen this new defense yet. All I've seen is the guys come in. I've seen them who, who's been hired, I've seen who's been signed, I see who's been re sign and I see and compare that against what I know from film from last year, which is all I have. Because what's the science? The science is the data that's in front of you. So based on the data in front of me, it's a 69. Now can this new look defense go out, address a couple positions in the draft, cornerback, maybe safety, you know, see how things go there in edge rusher in 20, 26. Can they be capable of matching serve with the offense and 85. And 85 giving you an 85 overall? Yes, you, you can. I believe that they have the potential to do so, but it's not happened and until it happened, I'm not going to give you credit for it happening. So I'm going to drop you right below 70.
- [49:29]
C
I, you know, they're definitely, I give them 65. You know what the Cowboys have been able to do and we talked about they've added some depth, they brought some guys in. I think Rashawn Gary is a great addition to the team. But when you look at, structurally, we still got to get some pass rush and I'm not taking anything away from his pass rush, but he's never been a double digit pass rush guy.
- [49:51]
A
No.
- [49:51]
C
All right. And so as I look at elite pass rushers, I'm looking at dudes, 10 plus 11 plus sacks a year, you know, I mean, and so that being said, I think you're still gonna have to get another rusher. You're still gonna have to find somebody else to bring some pressure. All right. Like we talked about already, that linebacker situation, if you don't feel that gap, man, you done? Yeah, that's one of the most Glaring holes. The secondary was, it was, was atrocious last year year. But it all starts. You had one level that was basically playing at an elite level and that was the first level. Those next two levels behind there, they got to get fixed up and we got to get some new guys in here. So that being said, the, the, the depth that they've added in the offseason, you know, like I, I definitely give them a plus on that. But as far as moving ahead, like just like you said, the proof is in the pudding and we haven't seen it proven yet.
- [50:40]
B
Yeah.
- [50:40]
C
So all these names, all these new adjustments and everything else like that and we hope that it meshes together together immediately. But sometimes, you know, there are some growing pains with, with, with transition. I think there probably will, you know, so. But I'm looking forward to, I, I, I'm, I'm not looking at the, I'm not expecting them to have a lot of drop off and be worse than they were last year. I'm not saying that at all but just. Are they above 70? No, not at all. They weren't last year at all.
- [51:06]
B
Can they be? Absolutely they can be. But show us.
- [51:09]
A
I think pre bye week last year I would have put them at a 65 like right where you are just the worst defense that we've seen in quite some time and I would love to see anybody argue anything higher than a 65. I think they got better at the trade deadline when they traded for Quinn
- [51:24]
B
and Williams added a lot Quinn and plus Kenny.
- [51:27]
A
What's your best player on defense?
- [51:29]
B
Moves you to a 68. 69.
- [51:30]
C
68.
- [51:31]
A
69. So if that's the case, I had him in 68 in my head.
- [51:34]
B
Okay.
- [51:35]
A
And then I like Jalen Thompson, I like Rashawn Gary. Are they the overall high level additions? No, not really. But they're starters that are going to contribute and that are going to be good.
- [51:46]
B
Will be a high level addition.
- [51:48]
A
He might be in, but again, no,
- [51:52]
B
that's fair, that's fair. I just feel like that's the one
- [51:54]
A
you want to see. I agree. I think he's one of the most underrated signings in the NFL this year because of the fit, because of the, the ability, because of his versatility, all of that. When it comes to the, the defense as a whole though, I like some of the depth that they've added. I like some of the additions they've added. But does it get, get it above a 75 in my book? Absolutely not. So at the end of the year I would have put them at like a 68. I think they're plus three or four in my mind. I think they're probably.
- [52:24]
B
They're definitely plus now. Now that's.
- [52:27]
A
But that's kind of the, the exercise that we're doing is what are they right now?
- [52:31]
B
I give them plus four from. From 65. They said 65 last year, plus four with the changes.
- [52:37]
A
Personally, I had coaching. I had him in a 68 at the end of the year because I thought they played better as the year went on. Were they still good?
- [52:43]
B
No, I'm not saying some guys played better as the year went on.
- [52:47]
A
Yeah, fair. But at the same time, yeah, you got railroaded by Detroit. I'm not counting the final game against Washington. Like that doesn't really count. Or the Giants. Excuse me, in the final game. That doesn't really count. That was trying to mix and match different players and stuff like that. But yeah, you moved Matty Refluz into a box position to try and push him out of the way and see what was happening on the sideline to see if they. That would help. They weren't playing great, but I don't think they were playing as poorly as they were prior to the bye week. And that's where you get into the conversation of are they around 70 now? 71, 72? I think they are. But they haven't made the big splash to put them in the upper 70s and get closer to that offense.
- [53:28]
B
Ask me again week five.
- [53:30]
A
Let's do.
- [53:31]
B
Ask me this question again week five.
- [53:33]
C
So 70s is still considered a C, right?
- [53:35]
B
Yep. So you nowadays.
- [53:37]
C
So you think they got got a
- [53:39]
A
sea level defense nowadays?
- [53:41]
C
On paper right now I agree.
- [53:42]
A
Yeah, on paper. On paper we still got to see it.
- [53:45]
C
Yeah, definitely got to see it.
- [53:46]
A
No pun intended. No see, no see.
- [53:48]
B
Sorry, real quick because I feel like you're about to end the show. I caught your tone so just I want to give a shouts out to everyone who showed love in the chat and on Twitter today with me returning to the show in the building. Shouts out to Gregory, shouts out to Joshua and everyone.
- [54:03]
A
Eric.
- [54:04]
B
Eric. Just love you guys. Thanks for I see all the well wishes. I've been seeing them over the past several days. Trust me, I heart as many as I can. I try not to ignore any, you know, through this path. I'm day seven post op and I've been sitting here for 48 minutes with this brace and it's killing me. So we are going to wrap this up. I do it for the people. I do it for my co hosts and I do it for the family. So happy to be back. Thank y' all for the love and let's get to it.
- [54:30]
A
Yeah. Appreciate you being back and and happy it all went well. Happy you're back in the building. I'm gonna have to carry you out of here now.
- [54:36]
B
No, I got the crutches over there.
- [54:38]
A
I got you. Don't worry about it. AD Appreciate you filling in.
- [54:41]
C
Thanks for having me, man.
- [54:42]
A
It's been great. Be sure to check him out on the players lounge when you get the opportunity. Awesome stuff with he, Barry Church, new Scruggs, that whole crew there. They do an awesome job. That does it for us. For Patrick Nosi Walker, Anthony Dorsett, Paul Bastas in the back of Kyle Yeoman saying so long from talking cowboys. We'll see you next week. This has been a production of Dallas Cowboys.com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club.
- [55:19]
B
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