Talkin’ Cowboys: Save the Dates — Birds, Brazil & the Big Apple

Summary

Talkin’ Cowboys: Save the Dates — Birds, Brazil & the Big Apple

Podcast: Talkin' Cowboys
Date: May 12, 2026
Hosts: Josh Rodriguez, Isaiah Stanback, Tommy Arsh (No Kyle or Patrick this episode)

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Overview

This episode delivers classic Cowboys Nation banter, deep roster analysis, and schedule talk as the hosts react to the early Cowboys 2026 schedule releases. With both bold takes and keen film room breakdowns, the crew debates the schedule’s toughest stretches, roster holes, and the impact of Dallas’s defensive overhaul. The conversation ranges from schedule intricacies, to personnel deep dives, to the nitty gritty of 3-4 vs. 4-3 defensive schemes, and rookie evaluations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cowboys 2026 Schedule Early Highlights

[03:09 – 04:56]

• Three dates released thus far:
  • Week 1 at NY Giants: Sunday Night Football, Sept 13. "This is the ninth time since 2006 the Cowboys have opened the season against the Giants. The Cowboys are 7 and 1 in those games." (Josh, 03:44)
  • Week 3 vs Ravens in Brazil: Cowboys have "never lost in Brazil" (joking, since they’ve never played there).
  • Week 12 Thanksgiving vs Eagles: "Only the third time the Cowboys and Eagles have faced off on Thanksgiving Day... We've lost both of those games." (Josh, 04:50)
• Media perspective: The NFL strategically "trickles out" prime schedule leaks to hype up the week.
• Hosts note the frequency of Giants-Cowboys openers and express hope for more variety.

2. Schedule Analysis & Storylines

[05:07 – 09:44]

• Familiarity & Rivalry: Frequent Giants openers are tradition ("13th time it’s ever happened." — Tommy, 05:09).
• Intrigue in week 1: "You got two Ohio State teammates going up against each other. Caleb Downs for the Cowboys and Arvell Reese... for the Giants." (Tommy, 05:22)
• Thanksgiving game vs Eagles: "To me that's going to be huge" — Isaiah, citing rivalry and late-season divisional implications (07:05).
• Tough Away Slate: Rams, Seahawks, Packers, Texans. "If you have to go to LA, then Seattle, that would be a brutal stretch." (Tommy, 08:10)
• Possible schedule stacking: Back-to-back tough road or short-week games could hurt momentum, leading to concerns about "brutal stretches for this team" (Tommy, 09:15).

3. Roster Strengths, Weaknesses & Defensive Overhaul

[09:44 – 13:36]

• Only a few teams inspire less concern: Commanders, Cardinals, Titans — "about what their team is going to be, how competitive they're going to be." (Isaiah, 09:49)
• All other teams are "dogs"—tough, physical matchups every week.
• Noting strength of schedule: "Why do we have the tougher schedule compared to the Eagles? What gives?" (Josh, 10:37; played for laughs)
• The litmus test: "If you can put 21 points on that Texans defense, I would be impressed. I just don't see how anybody scores on them. They are so loaded." (Tommy, 10:49)
• General consensus: NFC is stacked with great defenses; few "easy" games.
• "This is going to be a freaking battle royale week in, week out." (Isaiah, 11:34)
• Defensive improvement: "Including the Cowboys, in my opinion... The defense is totally 180 revamped." (Josh, 12:56)
• Transition to discussing the upcoming segment: Isaiah’s appearance on Good Morning Football and his hot take about defensive scheme shift (13:12).

4. Deep Dive: Cowboys’ Switch from 4-3 to 3-4 Defense

[16:14 – 26:46]

• Why is the scheme shift a big deal?
  "Personnel... you cannot keep your roster the same and change schemes... has to change." (Isaiah, 16:25)

• Differences in 4-3 vs. 3-4:

  • 4-3: 2 big DTs, hand-in-dirt DEs, 3 true linebackers.
  • 3-4: Huge nose tackle ("big fella in the middle"), edge-rushing outside linebackers, interior LBs must be athletic and versatile.
  • Emphasis on how new 3-4 schemes value versatility; can keep same personnel on field for unpredictability.

• Big Quote:

  • "Now what happens at the second level. You have two typically two true linebackers... Now your quote unquote outside linebackers are really kind of tweeners..." (Isaiah, 18:03–18:57)

• Disguise advantage: Not needing to substitute for offensive personnel groups enhances unpredictability ("...he doesn't know if I'm blitzing... Now what is he thinking? He's like, crap. Well, the personnel didn't change, so I have no indicators." — Isaiah, 22:26)

• Positive take on new personnel: "Seven new starters on defense. So I think... they are [more] inept to be able to handle that scheme." (Isaiah, 23:34)

• Ongoing need for veteran depth; Isaiah expects more roster moves, especially at linebacker and pass rusher (24:35).

5. Roster Holes: Linebacker and Secondary Questions

[24:35 – 29:51]

• Mike linebacker spot is not solidified; D Winners may not fit as true "Mike":
  • "I still don't think you got your Mike linebacker on this team yet." (Tommy, 24:35)
  • "Is he the guy you want to bank on as a rookie to run your defense?" (Tommy, 25:33)
  • Allusion to a "free agent" linebacker everyone knows about… (likely referencing someone like Bobby Wagner, without naming).
• Nickel vs. base packages: Anticipate more nickel personnel due to secondary depth.
• Secondary arrivals:
  • "Jalen Thompson is the biggest [signing] from the Cardinals."
  • Kobe Durant in the cornerback group.
  • PJ Locke familiar with Christian Parker’s defensive scheme.
• On rookie safety Caleb Downs: "I think the downs is more of the downhill, lay a hat on you, read and react... Jalen Thompson is more of your center field kind of safety who can cover all over the field." (Tommy, 28:45)

6. Can the Cowboys Defense Be Top 15?

[32:43 – 38:05]

• "In your wildest dreams, do you think the defense can turn around to be a top 15 defense next season?" (Josh, 32:52)

• Isaiah: "Yeah, it can. I believe that it can. But in order to do so..." (Isaiah, 33:08)

• Tommy: "Capable? Yes... I don't think they will be a top 15 defense by the end of the year. I'm sorry." (Tommy, 36:00)

• Pressure vs. run defense:

  • "If you had to pick... QB pressures as one category and rush defense as one category... One of those had to be a top 10 and one of those had to be a bottom 10. Which one would you rather have?" (Isaiah, 38:05)
  • General consensus: Run defense should be the priority; last year’s pressure didn’t lead to wins.

• Open need is for another D-lineman and linebacker with veteran presence:

  • "I still feel as if they need one more tried and true piece at defensive line... somebody like a Cameron Jordan... a locker room guy." (Isaiah, 39:23)
  • Concerns also at cornerback; lack of depth or health could be a problem if defensive front isn’t dominant.

7. Tape Talk: Rookies & Film Room Insights

[43:14 – 49:53]

• Tommy launches "Tape Talk"—giving fans a weekly film room view of draft picks and rookies.
• Fun intro jingle for the segment, "Tommy on the screen tonight..." [44:02].
• First impressions:
  • Caleb Downs: Instincts in the middle of the field, physical downhill style.
  • Malachi Lawrence: "He always attacks the football... could get you a couple forced fumbles this year," but "needs to grow as a run defender." (Tommy, 45:18)
  • Jayshawn Barham: "East to west, he moves so well... But maybe a half a tick behind on diagnosis at times." (Tommy, 46:22)
  • Positive take: Some skills can't be taught; others (diagnosis, anticipation) coaches are committed to developing.
• Favorite quote on player development:
  • "These are the attributes and characteristics that we really like about this player. Where they are lacking, we can improve... We're going to take that responsibility upon ourselves to make sure we invest in this young man and give him the tools and resources so he can be a better player for us." (Isaiah, 49:24)
• Bonus: Jayshawn Barham challenged a reporter to an Oklahoma drill at a presser: "He's an intense young man." (Tommy, 49:42)

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Notable Quotes

• "This is going to be a freaking battle royale week in, week out." — Isaiah Stanback [11:34]
• "If you can put up 21 points on that Texans defense, I would be impressed. I just don't see how anybody scores on them." — Tommy Arsh [10:49]
• "The defense is totally 180 revamped." — Josh Rodriguez [12:56]
• "You cannot keep your roster the same and change schemes." — Isaiah Stanback [16:25]
• "Now what is he thinking? He’s like, crap. Well, the personnel didn’t change, so I have no indicators..." — Isaiah Stanback [22:26]
• "I still don't think you got your Mike linebacker on this team yet... Is he the guy you want to bank on as a rookie to run your defense?" — Tommy Arsh [24:35, 25:33]
• "Some things you can't teach... But those, those physical instincts… That's what I'm saying. Like the. This coaching staff in this front office seem to have gotten that aspect down... Where they are lacking, we can improve, right? Not them. We can improve." — Isaiah Stanback [49:24]

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• Schedule Details & Early Leaks — [03:09 – 04:56]
• Away/home stretch worries & schedule gauntlet — [08:10 – 09:44]
• Defensive Overhaul & Deep Dive on 3-4 — [16:14 – 26:46]
• Secondary & Roster Additions — [26:46 – 29:51]
• Can Defense Be Top 15? Debate — [32:43 – 38:05]
• Veteran Needs Discussion (DL, LB, CB) — [38:05 – 43:02]
• Tape Talk: Rookie evaluations — [43:14 – 49:53]

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Memorable Moments

• Hilarious "Tape Talk" jingle introducing Tommy's film segment [44:02].
• Fierce debate and optimism about the defensive personnel, with hosts listing possible lingering roster needs at linebacker, corner, and along the defensive line.
• Tommy revealing that rookie Barham "challenged a reporter to a Oklahoma drill," showcasing locker-room personality [49:42].
• Multiple references to how film can reveal "speed with the pads on" versus Combine numbers.

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Summary Tone & Takeaways

The crew keeps things lively, poking fun at schedule quirks and each other, but provides detailed and smart breakdowns on Cowboys roster evolution. They stress uncertainty at key defensive spots (Mike linebacker, D-line depth, and CB) but reflect cautious optimism if personnel is supplemented. The rookie class gets plenty of early love—especially for their potential physical tools and fit in Dallas’s ambitious new defensive scheme.

Cowboys fans wanting smart, real talk about July's big issues—this is an episode to catch.

Transcript

[Isaiah Stanback]

The following is a production of Dallas Cowboys.com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club. This is Talking Cowboys streaming live from the Dallas Cowboys world headquarters at the

[Josh Rodriguez]

Star in Frisco cd Lamb.

[Isaiah Stanback]

It's on Jake Ferguson. Prescott keeps it and he bangs it in for the touchdown. And now your hosts, Isaiah Stanback, Patrick Walker, Josh Rodriguez and Kyle Yeomans.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Welcome to Talking Cowboys presented by Black Rifle Coffee, the official coffee of the Dallas Cowboys. We are live from the Star in Frisco here in the SWBC studios. I'm here with Tommy Arsh. I'm here with Isaiah. Stand back, Christopher. Antonio Beamer is in the back. I am Josh. There's no Kyle. There's no Patrick is. This is arguably a nightmare rotation for some people.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Pop your collar, Tommy. Ooh, Pop your. Listen, you never see this young man without a collar.

[Josh Rodriguez]

And you know what? I prefer it, honestly. He's dressed up.

[Tommy Arsh]

Thanks.

[Josh Rodriguez]

He's always to the nines. Very professional.

[Tommy Arsh]

I can assure you I am not always with a collar. In fact, I enjoy not being in a collar. But it's you guys I got to dress up and make sure that I at least look the part.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Got to present if I'm going to be here.

[Tommy Arsh]

I'm talking cowboy.

[Josh Rodriguez]

How about you wear a collar once in a while?

[Isaiah Stanback]

Listen, man, if I wear a collar, I'm. It's definitely game day day, okay? Yeah. That's what you get me in a collar.

[Josh Rodriguez]

That's true.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Collar or pasties.

[Josh Rodriguez]

One of the two on Dallas Cowboys dot com.

[Isaiah Stanback]

You came early off the top rope with that one.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Absolutely got you. Because that's where we are. That's where we're live and local and we're here for the people bringing you the dust. The best Dallas Cowboys coverage you will ever see on a Tuesday in May.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I've been gone for two weeks, man. You can't come off the top rope like that.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I know you've been on Good Morning Football. You've been killing it, man.

[Tommy Arsh]

You know, stormtrooper outfit was nice.

[Isaiah Stanback]

You like that?

[Tommy Arsh]

I like that. Like that.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I had no idea that I was. I was supposed to wear that that day. I got into wardrobe. So, like this is my normal thing, right? We have a 3:30am production call, right? Okay. Drive into the studio because now Disney took away our car service, so now we have to get a rental car.

[Josh Rodriguez]

How dare they?

[Isaiah Stanback]

How dare they. So we drive into the studio now I get in, I eat breakfast.

[Josh Rodriguez]

You know, Disney, hurting for money, as

[Isaiah Stanback]

they always are, do eat breakfast. And then I give. I usually go Straight to the wardrobe, you know, wardrobe. And give them my T shirt. I usually have a little balled up T shirt in my little. In my little cubby. And I give it to them. Yeah. Probably extra medium. And they. They either steam it or iron it. Right. So I get there and they're like, so. And I look into my left and there's a bag, you know, like little Halloween clothes bags. And they're like. So we were wondering if you could, you know, put this on. I was like, let me know how to. How to work. And I put it on. And bro, the chest piece wouldn't stay on, so they had to like tape the chest piece up. So I'm literally on there with this taped up little thing on tv. And then everybody wanted to change clothes in the second segment. So we took the clothes off. And then they're like, oh, at the top of the next hour, we need to put it back on.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Oh, my goodness.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yeah, So I did that like three times.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Well, the. The force was with you.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Thank you.

[Josh Rodriguez]

On May 4th.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Thank you.

[Josh Rodriguez]

We like seeing it. And shouts to the freaking NFL because guess what, guys, we've got some games.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Oh, what?

[Josh Rodriguez]

Got some games to talk about.

[Isaiah Stanback]

They've announced two of our games.

[Josh Rodriguez]

What? We're. We're at three now.

[Isaiah Stanback]

We're at three now.

[Josh Rodriguez]

We're at three, guys. Rio, one of my.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Oh, yeah, that's right, three.

[Josh Rodriguez]

One of my favorite things that the NFL does. This is great, especially for us media guys. One of the best things about the. The schedule release is they kind of trickle them out for you.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Half the schedule's gone.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Half the schedule's gone by Thursday. No, one can't. It is. Yeah. For the media people, it's a little tough, but we're always here to give you the live and local. So let me just break it down for you.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Give them an update.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Week one will be at the New York Giants. New York Football Giants. There it is. There's schedule. Sunday, September 13, 7, 20. Sunday Night Football. According Todd Ar, this is the ninth time since 2006 that the Cowboys have opened the season against the Giants. The Cowboys are 7 and 1 in those games. The only loss coming in. Dax Rook, season Intriguing. Week three. Of course we know. Cowboys versus Ravens in Brazil. Quick factoid, guys. The Cowboys are in their 66 year as a franchise, have never lost in Brazil. Watch out, Ravens.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Watch out there.

[Tommy Arsh]

All right, Wait, have they ever won in Brazil?

[Josh Rodriguez]

All right, we're ignoring that time. And then we also know week 12 that was announced late last night. Late Last night to Tommy. Right. How late was that?

[Tommy Arsh]

Probably about 4:15.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Love that. Love that for us.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Were you in bed already?

[Tommy Arsh]

I know you loved it. No, I. I was getting close. Yeah.

[Josh Rodriguez]

That's week 12 Thanksgiving game against the Philadelphia Eagles. Only the third time the Cowboys and Eagles have faced off on Thanksgiving Day.

[Isaiah Stanback]

No better day to have turkey. He might as well have some bird with it.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Well, they've only played them twice on Thanksgiving so far and we've lost both of those games.

[Isaiah Stanback]

We're not talking about the past here.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I'm just saying wanted to throw it out there, guys. The schedule is coming out on Thursday. We know this. We'll be talking about it. I wanted to ask you guys so far what you think of the home opener. New York Giants. This is familiar territory.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I feel like we always play them

[Tommy Arsh]

the first game 13 times. 13th time it's ever happened.

[Isaiah Stanback]

They need to change it up.

[Tommy Arsh]

You know, they did last year.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Wasn't it wasn't surprised.

[Josh Rodriguez]

They change it up every now and then. It's like every other year seems to be not the Giants, I think.

[Tommy Arsh]

I think this one has cool storylines though. It's John Harbaugh's first game Sunday night. How about that? You start on Sunday night and you're playing against a division rival. You got two Ohio State teammates going up against each other. Caleb Downs for the Cowboys and Arvell Reese, the fifth overall pick for the Giants. And you know, I remember back to Dallas's Week 18 game last year when they only played the starters for the first half and that ended Dax winning streak against the Giants. And even the post game press conference was not too happy about that. So I'm sure he wants to get back on the red side of the coin there against New York. But it should be fun. Always good to. I think, as you know, the reputation that MetLife has for some of the issues on the field is it's a great place to play at night. It's got a lot of pop to it.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah. Sunday night in New York, home opener or not home opener, but season opener for the Cowboys. I mean, yeah, it seems kind of par for the course that the Cowboys be in New York opening night. Yeah, I'm down with that. Not opening night of the season, but of course Sunday night football. Curious, guys, what are the games in the schedule that you're going to be looking for as soon as it comes out on Thursday on Dallas.com?

[Isaiah Stanback]

i don't. Honestly, I don't have any that I'm looking for. I mean that you have idea who they're, you already know who they're going to play. It's just a matter of when. Right. I think that the Thanksgiving game for me is a big one just because of the fact that you know those games. It's always obviously everybody and their mama's watching that game. But you hardly ever, aside from last year, you hardly ever get an opponent that you're truly excited that you're going to play. And I think the Eagles, that rivalry game, no, and especially that time of the year, how important games are around then to me that's going to be huge.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I would be surprised if you play. If that was the second time you're playing the Eagles, I would assume that you're going to play them again at the end of the year. So like it's, it might be one of the situations where it's going to be like a week or two weeks away from like Eagles, game, game, Eagles, you know what I mean? Like it's going to be something similar to that I feel because we always tend to play the Eagles towards the, you know, late December, like a four week window.

[Isaiah Stanback]

You play them twice. Yeah, I don't like that.

[Josh Rodriguez]

And I guarantee, and I almost guarantee you that you're going to get Green Bay in that span as well because with the Micah Parsons injury from last season, him recovering from that, I don't think there's any way that the NFL decides like oh let's, let's front load Green Bay for Dallas.

[Isaiah Stanback]

There's, I don't know, think that they can go back to back years loading up the back half of the schedule. Because last year was the gauntlet.

[Josh Rodriguez]

That was crazy.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Last year was the gauntlet in terms of schedules. Right. So I don't, I can't foresee the NFL doing that to the Cowboys again.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Are you, you kidding though? You know, you know who we're talking about here? This is the Dallas Cowboys and it's Green Bay. Michael Parsons, his return most likely against the Cowboys. I mean, you know, I think he will be healthy by that point. By the time they play the Cowboys. I don't know exactly when that's going to be in the schedule, but I assume they don't front load that. What about you Tommy?

[Tommy Arsh]

What I'm just interested to see is the this away slate and how it kind of bouncing off of Yalls point of how does it stack up the four. I'm looking at Rams, Seahawks, Packers, Texans in what kind of order does that get put in? Are you playing a back to back stretch where you have to go to LA and then you go to Seattle the next week because I can tell you that's not going to end well. I don't think, I think that would be a brutal stretch.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Is that going to. For sure is going to be in Seattle.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yeah, they are playing away in Seattle. Yes.

[Isaiah Stanback]

So away to la, away to Seattle. No, I'll be here working man.

[Tommy Arsh]

Isaiah, stand back. Bowl.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Last time Seattle played here, my whole family came down. There you go. Awesome. They got, you know, that didn't end well for the Cowboys,

[Tommy Arsh]

but like how they mesh those four games of, you know, are you playing any back to back? Is it like last year where you play what was it like three games in 17 days?

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yes. And against the Chiefs and the Eagles

[Tommy Arsh]

and I think it was the Chargers or something like that.

[Josh Rodriguez]

No, no, no, it was, it was another tough team, but go, go ahead. Sorry.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yeah, no, I, I just, I'm curious to see how that stacks up. And then you've also got a, a solid home slate too in the sense like, you know, if the 4 to the 49ers are sandwiched in there. So there are some instances where you can see some really tough stretches for this team and I'm curious to see where those come and how they stack up back to back and see how much time apart this team has to kind of regroup because what if it is like a short week and you've got to go on the road to Seattle and come home and play the 49ers. That's going to be pretty tough.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Some tough opponents on his schedule though.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yeah, it's not an easy schedule at all.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Run down. Isaiah, do you, do you have a list in front of you?

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yes, I do have a list in front of me. There are only a handful of teams that I would say or have question marks about about what their team is going to be, how competitive they're going to be. Those teams are the Washington Commanders, the Arizona Cardinals and Tennessee Titans. We don't know what they're going to be just yet, but I feel as if their defense is going to be pretty nasty.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Probably.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Safe to assume with Robert Solomon, assume

[Isaiah Stanback]

that their defense is going to be pretty nasty and they have literally transformed their defense personnel. So other than that, you got to worry about the Colts, you got the Texans, you got the Packers, Seahawks, Rams. Those are teams that you don't typically play. Jaguars, Ravens, Bucks, 49ers. I mean you got some, you got some dogs now.

[Josh Rodriguez]

But wait a second, I thought we didn't win the NFC last year, NFC east last year.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yeah, I know. I don't know what's going on.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Why do we have the tougher schedule compared to the Eagles? Man, what the heck, dude? What gives? Tommy?

[Tommy Arsh]

Don't look at me. I don't, I don't pick this.

[Josh Rodriguez]

This is Tommy's fault, but always Tommy's fault. He announced it on Dallas.

[Tommy Arsh]

What I'm really looking forward to this year is we talk so much about how prolific this offense is and, and how amazing it is and it really was last year. I think, I think your true test of like, okay, is this a championship caliber offense? Comes when you play Houston. If you can put up 21 points on that Texans defense, I would be impressed. I just don't see how anybody scores on them. They are so loaded.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I mean, you're. Listen, all these defenses. Yeah, yeah.

[Tommy Arsh]

Really? Houston's to me is I think the

[Isaiah Stanback]

best in the league in terms of pass rush. In terms of everything. In terms of everything. I think they're solid across the board. I think you're going to be pleasantly one. I'm saying not pleasantly. But no, I think it won't be pleasant. Hopefully it will be pleasant. But all these defenses are nasty.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I mean like, seriously, like all of them, except for those teams that I mentioned in terms of, you know, the Cardinals commanders, those teams that you really don't know about, the Titans, have they. They're going to be a nasty defense. Okay. And in every other team that we talked about, the Ravens, we know that their defense is going to be completely different. That's why they changed their head coach. Their defense will be nasty as well. And then packers, you know what you're getting with at them. The Colts solid across the board. Eagles, yes. Giants, yes. Like all these guys, like there's no easy. There's maybe two games where you can say, okay, hey, we feel pretty good about this. You know, our offense versus defense. Other than that, this is going to be a freaking battle royale week in, week out. Yeah.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Defense has got to step up. Yeah.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Everybody has to step up. This is, this is a tough. All these teams got better. Yeah. You know, outside of your, outside of your division, all these other teams that are on your schedule, Cardinals, we don't know what they are. That's what I'm saying. That's the one team that you just truly don't know who they are. But I mean, when you look at the other teams, the Bucks, who's calling their freaking defense? Yeah. You know what that's going to be Right. And they just happen to get freaking bane now. They got, you know, the big fella, you know, from beat of a in the middle though, you got to worry about those things. Jaguars defense is nasty, right? They lost a couple pieces, but they're, they're nasty across the board. And then the Rams, we know what they are. Seahawks, we know what they are. Packers, they might have a little bit of something they want to come get. Texans, yes. Colts, I mean, like, there's no one game maybe where you're like, we got their number. Everybody else is like, you better look at the matchups.

[Josh Rodriguez]

There's no let up. But I think like you're saying all of these teams got better, including the Cowboys, in my opinion. I mean, definitely they got, they improved this offseason in terms of the defensive side. The offense is definitely par for the course and, and continuing, hopefully what they've built last year.

[Isaiah Stanback]

A lot of intrigue around the Cowboys

[Josh Rodriguez]

defense right now, but the defense is totally 180 revamped. Yeah, absolutely. And it's been a good morning of football talking to you guys. And speaking of good morning football, I want to, I want to address a hot take that Isaiah had last week on Good morning Football regarding the Cowboys defense and switching over from the 3:4 to the 4 or 4:3 to 3:4. Let's talk about that when we come back.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Okay.

[Josh Rodriguez]

More on talking Cowboys right after this.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Every day begins with a promise. A promise to work hard and to build a future. That's why we're here, providing the tools, expertise and John Deere equipment you have relied on for generations to help you get the job done right. We're with you. That's our promise. Promise to you. Because no matter the project or the challenge you're facing, we're with you. We're united. If you're looking for fresh American roasted coffee that gives back, you need to head to your local grocery store and pick up a bag of Black Rifle coffee. That's right. America's coffee is now available in the coffee aisle of a grocery store near you. Black Rifle Coffee company is veteran founded with a mission to give back to those brave men and women who have served our nation. Every bag, box or can you purchase helps support that mission. Head to your local grocery store and roast yourself some black Rifle coffee today.

[Josh Rodriguez]

If you shout how bout them cowboys. You have that undeniable passion that's the heart of Cowboys nation. And if you like to drink Dr. Pepper, you love the unique blend of its 23 flavors together. Your one of a kind fandom paired with the one of a kind taste of a delicious ice cold Dr. Pepper is the game day lineup that can't be beat. Better yet, gather Your Cowboys and Dr. Pepper fan friends to watch the next game and crack open a delicious ice cold Dr. Pepper for everyone. The wins will be even tastier. It's a pepper thing.

[Tommy Arsh]

I'm home.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Hey mom, before you ask, I've done my homework and the dishwasher's unloaded.

[Tommy Arsh]

Nice.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Hey, can you.

[Tommy Arsh]

Hey hon. Yes, I've got the finale ready to play. Here's your wine. Wow.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Isn't it nice not having to ask? We think so. That's why if there's a network interruption, AT&T will proactively credit you for a full day of service. Guaranteed credit for Fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or for wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers. Restrictions and exclusions apply. See att.com guaranty for details. Back to talking cowboys.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Welcome back to Talk and Cowboys live on Dallas Cowboys.com YouTube all the places at&T Stadium Tours get behind the scenes look at the home of the Dallas Cowboys with tours of AT&T Stadium presented by SeatGeek. Check out the locker rooms, playing fields, contemporary art collection and more. Get your tickets [e-mail] tours.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yeah, do it.

[Tommy Arsh]

Do it.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Isaiah, you had a hot take a couple of weeks ago.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Hot fire football.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Why is it, why is a big deal to switch from the 4 to 3, 23 4?

[Isaiah Stanback]

Listen, man, personnel. We talked about this before the change was made, before the defensive coordinator for the Cowboys was hired. We talked about the, the, the prospects for the defensive coordinator position. And obviously now that has been fulfilled. But prior to that we were saying why is it such a big deal whether you grab somebody who's a 43 guy versus a 34 guy? And the number one thing that I said prior to the GMFB show that you're referencing was personnel and that you cannot keep your roster the same and change schemes, right? Because the personnel that's required to effectively navigate those schemes and and, and impose those schemes has to change. When you run a four three, you typically have two big fellas in the middle that, you know, they're obviously one techniques, three techniques all the way to five and then you have your seven and then your nine techniques, right? Usually have one or two really good pass rushing defensive ends that have their hands in the ground and you got two big fellas in the middle that are responsible for two Gapping or playing one specific gap. Three, three true linebackers at the second level, when you switch over to a three, four. Now those fellas in the middle, at least the main guy, right, who would typically be your one technique. Now he's really a. A one or three technique. Like he's not. He's not doing a whole lot of moving, right? Anywhere between zero to three. So he's usually a big fella. That's a big nasty. Think about a old big SA or Gilbert Brown, right? Guys like that, guys that are just big nasties or names you don't hear.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Maybe.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yeah, or maybe somebody named Otito. I don't know, maybe somebody like that. Just a big fella in the middle that just really just. His job is to consume the center and just take him out the game, right?

[Josh Rodriguez]

I thought he was just death guy.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Oh yeah. I mean it can be. But no, that's not why reason why. Also I Digi Zua is not here. Also Diggy Zool costs a lot of money and also Digizu is not big enough right. To facilitate that role. So not had nothing to do with his capabilities as a player. But it's like for what he does. Well, it would not work in this particular scheme for what they're asking of that position. That's why he's not here. That's why they brought in an Otito. He's a big fella, right? £330, big nasty in the middle. As soon as the center snaps the ball, he grabs him. He two gaps, right? He pushed that guy back. He says you cannot work up to the second level. What do the guys next to him do? Okay, well you have a Kenny Clark and you have a Quinn and Williams. Both of those guys are interchangeable on both sides. But those guys are typically going to play between the. The three and the five techniques. Okay? Those guys jobs is to take up the guards, right? Consume those guards. So you have the. You have your 01 technique taken up the center and you're consuming those, those, those guards now. So the interior three guys are really being occupied. What does that allow for you to do? Well, those guys on your. Those three and five techniques can really widen down and consume some of the tackles as well if they split the difference. So now you're preventing that offensive line from working up to right now. What happens at the second level. You have two typically two true linebackers, right? And those are your interior linebackers. Usually it's a. It's an interior linebacker and another guy that might be called a joker. Okay, one true guy who's downhill guy can read ball, hit ball. Another guy who might be me, a little bit more athletic, but now where it really changes on the outside. Your quote unquote outside linebackers are really kind of tweeners, right? In the old 3, 4 schemes these were like ginormous defensive ends who like to be in bicycle stances, right? They don't have their hand in the ground. They like to be in a track start stance. And these guys are literally, they're meant to set the edge, contain everything, constrict everything, restrict everything so that you can funnel everything to the middle, right? Those middle linebackers are unimpeded because those offensive linemen can't work up to them. So they can see gaps and hit the gap and they can go out there and read, react. Your linebackers are the playmakers on that defense. Now with these newer three, four schemes, those defensive ends are a little bit more athletic right there. They might not be 6, 4, 6 5, 270 like they used to be back in the day. Now they might be 6, 3 to 6, 5, but maybe, you know, anywhere from 245 to 265. That's kind of the range now. And their job is still the same. Right contains set the edge. But now I also need you to pass rush, right? I need you to set the edge, but I need you to have a little wiggle to you so that you can get to the quarterback. You're typically going to be man to man versus a tackle or a tight end, right? And we need you to control that individual whether it's restricting and constricting the the lanes or it's beating those guys one on one and going to get the quarterback. That is really the main difference between the schemes. Now when these guys are lined up outside edge of the tackle box or the tight end box and they're forcing everything in or pass rushing from that stand up position versus being truly set in at the linebacker position where you're inside the tackle box and you're really in a, in a two point stance just here and there, chilling. So those are really the differ and the reason why it's important to acknowledge that when you bring in a Rashawn Gary, when you have a T winners now that's gonna, I'm sorry, a D winners that's at the middle linebacker position. Now he's the guy who should lead this team in tackles based upon position, based upon what's being asked him. What's the reason why it's so important to Have a guy who's tried and true at the position because he's going to be asked to be the tackling machine. Demarbion over shown, you know, God willing, that he's healthy and he's your more athletic guy that can rip and run. Right. He's still inside the tackle box. Right. Playing next to D winners. But his job is really to run and react right, be able to drop in coverage, consume some zones with his long arms. But when he sees something go, hit the ball. And then we got Rashawn Gary and your other defensive end. Whatever you decide to do with that position, those guys are going to be to go get the quarterback and or set the edge. That's really what you're asking of these guys. And then you don't have to change your defense. You typically a defense, a defensive coordinator sits there in the box and he looks and sees, okay, what personnel is coming out for the offense. Right. As soon as he sees three receivers come out, all right, 11 personnel. Let me go change to a nickel. Let me go change to a dime, whatever it might be. When you have athletic guys that are versatile and can stay in the 3, 4. Now I don't have to change my scheme as in rotating, as in rotating guys. I don't have to keep substituting guys out to match, which we've been accustomed

[Josh Rodriguez]

to for very much, 20 years.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Right. And why does that play to your advantage? Well, if Tommy knows that every time I he sends 11 personnel out, I have to change, now he can start scheming up his offense to, to handle what it is that, that where we're lacking in size potentially. Right. Well, now if Tommy comes out 11 personnel and I keep my guys out there, Tommy doesn't know what the heck I'm doing. He doesn't know what I'm. He doesn't know if I'm blitzing on this play. He can't look at the analytics and say, okay, when we're third and 11 and we go 11 personnel, these guys are going to blitz 40% of the time. That's kind of how our mind works because we get this data all week long now that the defense stays the same. So now what is he thinking? He's like, crap. Well, the personnel didn't change, so I have no indicators.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Stanback]

As to what they may or may not be doing. Right. Which allows for you defensively to be more aggressive, allows for you to be, to have a better disguise and allows

[Josh Rodriguez]

for you to smoke screen situation.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yeah. You don't know what's happening. So that's kind of all encompassing. I know there's a lot of information, but that's what it allows for you to do defensively and that's what allows for how, how effective it allows for you to be defensively.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Now, do you have the personnel to effectively change the results based on just simply changing the scheme now? Yes. I mean, you're talking about the worst defense in the league last year.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yeah. Now I am encouraged because I can't say for sure anything yet until we see it on, on film. Right. When they go to training camp and especially when they have that joint practice, that's when I will know. Right. Check back with me whenever we have a joint practice and I can tell you how we're really looking. But based upon what they've done, front office has done an amazing job of turning over this roster to a company. This 3, 4 defense. There's seven new starters on defense. Yeah, you've done a hell. You've done a hell of a job. Right. That's seven new starters on defense. So I think based upon the personnel that they have now, I think that they are more in inept to be able to handle that scheme and be effective in that scheme. I don't think they're done yet. I don't think the front office is done yet. I still believe that there's going to be one or two more veterans that are signed that can make huge additions on this defense. I think they're going to go through OTAs and see where they're at. I think that they'll probably even get close training camp and find out where, where they're looking, how they're looking. But I foresee there being another linebacker addition and I foresee there being another, another pass rusher.

[Tommy Arsh]

I still don't think you got your Mike linebacker on this team yet. I don't think you're confidently saying that's your guy week one. I don't think D Winters is that. I think D winners is kind of similar to the Kenneth Murray situation last year. I don't think Murray was ever really a Mike and maybe in college he was. Yeah, he was never really.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Murray did also lead the team in tackles last year and well, you got what you got.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Kenneth Murray is a C ball, hit ball type of guy. That's what I'm saying. When a Mike is more of a

[Tommy Arsh]

Mike is more like cerebral in terms of like you got to communicate everything out to every level of this defense.

[Isaiah Stanback]

And just because you know the defense doesn't mean that you can verbalize it

[Tommy Arsh]

to everybody, communicate it out.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Right.

[Tommy Arsh]

And I'm not saying Kenneth Murray wasn't capable of doing that. I'm not trying to take any digs here, but he just never played that position. D winners is not. He said it on our conference call. He's never played Mike. So I don't know if necessarily that's the guy that you're looking for to do this. I don't know if demarvion Overshone is a guy you're looking forward to do that. So that means if the season starts today, your Mike linebacker is probably Jayshawn Barum.

[Isaiah Stanback]

And that's what they're trying to make him. That.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yeah, and they're trying to make him that. But can you. Is he the guy you want to bank on as a rookie to run your defense?

[Isaiah Stanback]

I know somebody who's free, who can. Who can play Mike linebacker.

[Tommy Arsh]

I think we all do.

[Isaiah Stanback]

All right.

[Josh Rodriguez]

We all do. We've talked about ad nauseam.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yeah. So we'll see. But no, I think Isaiah hit the nail on the head breaking down, you know, the 3, 4 and how it's kind of changed in the modern era of football, too. What I'm going to be fascinated to see with Christian Parker is how much we actually see them in three, four base. Because I don't know if we're going to see them in a ton. I think you're going to see them in more nickel.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Nickel for sure.

[Tommy Arsh]

Because of the personnel they've got. You look at all the additions they've made. They have constructed this roster from the back to the front versus the front to the back, which is typically how teams do, how I would do it because I think you win and lose games, the line of scrimmage, I don't think you win them in the secondary. But hey, go ahead and prove me wrong. I don't care. What do I know? So that's going to be really interesting to see how, number one, how those. The safety room is. Is utilized. I wonder if it's going to be something similar to what Iowa State's ran under Matt Campbell in the last couple of years, where they kind of do three high safeties and they just move them all over the place. And that gave good offenses a ton of fits. So we'll see what Christian Parker's got up his sleeve. But I think Isaiah is right. You need some personnel changes, too.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Before we take our next break, can you please give a little bit more insight to those who are unaware because the time has gone by. As far as some of these. Some of these unrestricted free agent acquisitions that the Cowboys have had in terms of the secondary and these veterans. Right, right. You know, the draft has come. You know, some of the other stuff's happened. The crazy free agency happened, and I think people have forgotten some of the other key pieces that will be playing roles on this defense going forward.

[Tommy Arsh]

Well, Jalen Thompson is the biggest one from the Cardinals. He was their biggest payday. He was the biggest signing and they're going to have him play all over the place. I mean, he can. He can cover the deep parts of the field. He's got great range, so that's probably going to be your biggest one. In the safety room, you still got Malik Hooker. They'll probably play alongside each other most of the time. And then you'll probably see Caleb Downs in the nickel spot. They also got PJ Locke at safety, played a little bit more throughout his time in Denver. He's a guy who's familiar with Christian Parker's system. They played together or while he coached Lock, so there's some familiarity there with that. The quarterback room. Kobe Durant, who I know is the most popular person among the Cowboys fan base at the moment, but hey, this guy's a good player. He was good for Los Angeles last year on a defense that really struggled to defend the pass. I think he was one of their bright spots. Gosh, I'm trying not to draw a blank here, not forget anybody.

[Isaiah Stanback]

What would you say for those that are. That don't have the vision. Yeah, per se. Having a Thompson and a Caleb Downs on the same defense, how similar are those guys as players?

[Josh Rodriguez]

Well, that was one thing that Christian Parker kept bringing up, especially at the combine. Talking about brain works, guys that are cerebral, guys that like, can know the defense in and out and be able to contribute from. From a knowledge standpoint and always know where everything's going to be. To me, that those are guys that are going to exemplify what Parker's defense is.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Is.

[Tommy Arsh]

I think that you're asking differences between the two.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I'm saying, like, how similar are they? How do what. What character races do they. Do they embody that, allow for them to be dangerous as a combination?

[Tommy Arsh]

That's a good question. I think that. I think the downs is more of the downhill. Lay a hat on you. Read and react. We were talking with Ross Wentz, the national scout here for the Cowboys, and he said the middle of the field between the hashes is where this guy is different. And so I think that's really where he Thrives in the middle of the field, whether it be reading and react to get an interception. Reading in the react in their own run game. He's better at the line of scrimmage. You can line him up there. He can fill the B gap, he can blitz the quarterback. He can do those kinds of things. Jalen Thompson is more of your center field kind of safety who can cover all over the field. He's got great range and he can. If you've got deep balls to either side of the field, he can be the guy that goes and gets there. Not to say that downs can't, but I think Thompson has more range in that department. So that's why you see downs being talked about more as a nickel. Because really your nickel, you want them to dominate that middle part of the field. Think about what Jordan Lewis did here in Dallas when he was here. It was the middle portion of the field. It was coming and hitting hard and just being able to.

[Isaiah Stanback]

And a big tackler for you, right?

[Tommy Arsh]

A huge tackler and being able to make plays near the line of scrimmage. That's the kind of things that I would expect Caleb Downs to do.

[Josh Rodriguez]

And Thompson is nothing but if not consistent. And a player like that, that is cerebral like that, that can influence downs, like coming into his career as a rookie and using all of those physically gifted traits that he has while learning from a guy like Thompson is going to be invaluable for him. Absolutely. I want to continue this conversation. Yeah, we had a heated debate last episode on this show where you guys were not here, but it was on if the Cowboys were able to turn around their defense to become a top 15.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Oh, yeah.

[Josh Rodriguez]

More talking Cowboys after this break.

[Isaiah Stanback]

What would you like the power to do? Dig deep and ask it. Can you really live so far from

[Tommy Arsh]

the family you lean on? Will a broken nose break you or

[Josh Rodriguez]

will it make you.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Diego Luna retakes the field. Bank of America champions U.S. men's national team player Diego Luna and everyone who

[Josh Rodriguez]

dares to ask, what would you like

[Isaiah Stanback]

the power to do? Bank of America proud to be the Official bank of US Soccer and FIFA World Cup 2026 bank of America NA Member FDSE if you're looking for fresh American roasted coffee that gives back, you need to head to your local grocery store and pick up a bag of Black Rifle coffee. That's right, America's coffee is now available in the coffee aisle of a grocery store near you. Black Rifle Coffee Company is veteran founded with a mission to give back to those brave men and Women who have served our every bag box or can you purchase helps support that mission. Head to your local grocery store and roast yourself some black rifle coffee today. Every day begins with a promise. A promise to work hard and to build a future. That's why we're here providing the tools, expertise and John Deere equipment you have relied on for generations to help you get the job done right. We're with you. That's our promise to you. Because no matter the project or the challenge you're facing, we're with you. We're united. I'm home. Hey, Mom. Before you ask, I've done my homework and the dishwasher's unloaded. Nice. Hey, can you. Hey, hon.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yes? I've got the finale ready to play. Here's your wine.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Wow. Isn't it nice not having to ask? We think so. That's why if there's a network interruption, @t will proactively credit you for a full day of service. Guaranteed credit for fiber downtime lasting 20 minutes or more or for wireless downtime lasting 60 minutes or more caused by a single incident impacting 10 or more towers. Restrictions and exclusions apply. See att.com guarantee for details. Back to Talking Cowboys.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Welcome back to Dogging Cowboys. We're live. SWBC studios.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Studios.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I'm here with Patrick. Or not.

[Isaiah Stanback]

We all look alike, huh?

[Tommy Arsh]

Oh, no, no.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I'm here with Patrick in spirit. Patrick? No. Walker.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Oh, maybe Patrick. No.

[Tommy Arsh]

Walker.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Maybe he has Walker.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I miss him dearly. He's a good man.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Somebody should put like some. He'll be electric scooter wheels.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Not next week, but the week after. He'll be back and we'll talk to him. Fellas, just before the break, we want to talk about turning this defensive round. Yeah, I think it's possible. In. In your wildest dreams, do you think the defense can turn around to be a top. Top 15 defense next season?

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yeah, it can.

[Josh Rodriguez]

By end of the season.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yeah, I can. I believe that it can.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Stanback]

But in order to do so.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Kyle said absolutely not.

[Isaiah Stanback]

No, he's crazy. In order to do that. I mean, listen, any team in this league can turn around their team, right? Not even just one side of the ball. You could turn your team around in a year. And we've seen it. We just saw it. We just sinked it in it. We just saw it happen in the Super Bowl. Right? There was two teams that weren't. That weren't even remotely close the year before, and then they were there. So to say that it can't happen is blasphemy. I believe that the changes that the Cowboys have made, we're in wait and see.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I mean, that's just reality. Right. So anybody coming out saying for sure, for sure anything is crazy. But it's encouraging to see that these guys have made. They've made the defensive coordinator change. The, the. The individual positional coaches have changed drastically. It's a different vibe. There's a different mentality. There's a different energy. Right. I think the. The emphasis on development has changed. Where in the past, the coaches that were here. No, no shade at them, but I think it was more so get with the program or get out type of deal versus here. It was like, hey, we have talent. We're going to bring you in and then we are going to take the responsibility to teach you. It's something that I've talked about on this show many times before. The responsibility on positional coaches needs to be leveled up, and I feel as if these coaches truly take that on. I think that they take pride in developing talent. You come in. Just because you're considered now a professional athlete doesn't mean that there's not room to improve. Absolutely not. And their job as coaches, position coaches, is to improve those players. So I look forward to seeing that development from these players, even though they're coming in gifted and talented and then putting these guys in position to be successful. And I think with the talent that you have, yes, you can be productive. Now. That's not to say that these offenses aren't going to continue to get better as well, but you have to go out there and put it together. And I think that you have personnel, you have encouragement from these coaches. There's going to be ups and downs like there is with any team, any defense. Teams will. Your team will continue to evolve. If there's areas of weakness that they are identified throughout the training camp, throughout the season, they will make. This front office seems to be committed to make changes. So I think you will see this defense continue to evolve throughout the year. What you see in week one is not what you're going to see in the middle of the week, middle of the season. So, yes, I can foresee them being there if they can get pressure and if they could take the ball away, if they let me take. Take that back, not even the pressure. If you can stop the run and you can take the ball away. Those are the two aspects that have to be top 10 performances for me in order for this to be a top 15 defense.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I would argue that you feel you should Feel pretty good about being able to stop the run. Like, because they've invested so much in that position, in that defensive line, in the middle of the defensive line, that I would think at this point that's the one thing that you can count on. Like we'll be able to stop the run, especially up the middle. And it's the linebackers that you're really concerned about right now because that position isn't solidified. Tommy, do you think this defense is capable of being a top 15 by the end of the season?

[Tommy Arsh]

Capable? Yes. I think Isaiah hit it on the head is anybody can turn things around in one year. Anybody. I don't think they will be a top 15 defense by the end of the year. I'm sorry. I mean, I, like, I'm still not.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I love an unbiased opinion, so, please.

[Tommy Arsh]

I'm not necessarily sold on the pass rush. I think that is the most important aspect of winning in today's NFL is you have to get to the quarterback. And when you get to the quarterback, then the turnovers happen, then stopping the run happens. That's got to be the biggest thing. And you can say the same thing about stopping the run because then that makes it tougher on the quarterback too. And you've got to be able to be one dimensional. But I really think if you can just affect the backfield, get after the quarterback, everything on every level of your defense gets easier. And I don't know if this team has a guy right now that I can point to and say, if it's third down and we need to stop, that guy's going to get a sack. I don't think this team has that. Yeah, and that's the biggest, you know, the portion for me. And so the linebacker room, of course, still has questions too, of, you know, if we're talking about stopping the run here. I mean, yeah, we've got a great defensive line. Quinn Williams, Kenny Clark, Otito Bonya, Roshan. Gary's been a good run defender his entire career.

[Josh Rodriguez]

And as Rocco, whenever he did flash last season, it was, yeah, it was

[Tommy Arsh]

more as a run guy than it was a pass rusher, which is interesting. But they're not going to win every play. This is a simple fact. So who in the linebacker room do you feel truly confident as a tackler that they can go make a play if it's just read and react? If you don't have a mic at the moment, I think, you know, Dee Winters has great ability to read. Get there quickly, good closing speed. Demarvi on over shown obviously as has that. But, you know, is he fully healthy and does he have that same burst that we saw a couple of years ago? You know, obviously with two major knee injuries, that certainly tampers with things, but I. I just don't know if I can confidently say this is going to be a top 15 unit. They. I don't think they're going to be 32nd again.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Right.

[Tommy Arsh]

I mean, there are worse units out there, but I don't know if I would put them in the upper half of the NFL just yet.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Let me ask you two fellas a question. If you had to pick right between I'm not gonna say sacks or I'm gonna say QB pressures. Right. QB pressures as one category and rush defense as one category. All right. One of those had to be a top 10 and one of those had to be a bottom 10. Which one would you rather have?

[Josh Rodriguez]

It would be probably run defense.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Run defense, top 10, run defense and a bottom 10.

[Tommy Arsh]

This team got a bunch of pressure on the quarterback last year and it didn't matter.

[Josh Rodriguez]

No, yeah, yeah. It's one thing to get pressure, is one thing to get sacks. I mean, absolutely. And, and genuinely, I do feel really good about the run defense right now. I would say that that's most likely for me.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Do you still feel as if you need one more piece on the defensive front?

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Not pass rusher. Not a pass rusher, yes.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Because I'm not sold on Ebonia right now. Granted, the size, the measurables that you're talking about, I think are playing to his advantage. Absolutely. Especially if they see something in him. And we'll have to wait until we're, like you said, a joint practice before he can really see how effective he's going to be in this defense. However, I feel like that spot to me, isn't solidified yet.

[Isaiah Stanback]

All right, what about the addition of Jonathan Buller? Do you think that that gives you anything? I know he's kind of trying to rekindle his. His.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I think that's depth.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Okay.

[Tommy Arsh]

I would say so.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Do you guys feel secure? Because right now I still feel as if they need one more tried and true piece at defensive line. And when I say that, I think about guys like a Cameron Jordan Jordan. Now, he might cost you a couple more dollars, Right. But I think adding a Cameron Jordan, somebody who's a. Who's a locker room guy, somebody who's a veteran around this league. Yeah, he's at the end of his career, so he might not cost you as much, but somebody who could still. Who's still an absolute dog. That's somebody that you could put on this defensive front that can give you a depth. So if you have an injury. Right. Right now everybody's like, oh, yeah, our defense line is solid. Yeah, until you have an injury. Right.

[Josh Rodriguez]

So if someone misses two games, Quinn

[Isaiah Stanback]

Williams or Kenny Clark goes out, you're not going to say that same thing. Thing. Yeah. Right. So who is it that you're rotating in that you feel confident with? Jay Toya?

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Stanback]

No, no, not yet. Hopefully it snaps for him. Right. But it hasn't happened yet.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I feel that way about several positions, like including linebacker as well. We've talked about it ad nausea.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Yeah, we know they're going to get

[Josh Rodriguez]

another linebacker, but to me, I don't think they're relying enough on veteran presence and. And getting a vested vet. Like, even if he is long in the tooth. I think that experience on this team would only benefit the players because you're right now in a position where I didn't want you to be, where you're banking on rookies contributing often in this season to get you where you need to go and relying on them like we're talking about. But possibly a rookie starting at Mike. You know, to me, it's. It's an uncomfortable position to be in

[Tommy Arsh]

if we're talking about investing resources on this defense. At the moment, I don't know if I would go defensive line. I would probably go linebacker and then make. Probably corner too, because.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Tommy Arsh]

Who do you feel confident about in this corner room?

[Isaiah Stanback]

Oh, yeah, I don't. I really don't.

[Tommy Arsh]

That's a tough one.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I mean, you could say bland, but the foot.

[Tommy Arsh]

Is he healthy?

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tommy Arsh]

I think the problem is the foot

[Isaiah Stanback]

corner is one of those things where if you were not going to grab your guy in free agency, top of free agency, and then you're relying on the draft because corners are just hard to come by. That's just the reality. As is one, it's Slim Pickens.

[Josh Rodriguez]

And they're expensive.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Absolutely.

[Josh Rodriguez]

When they are on the market, if

[Isaiah Stanback]

you are in a position where you're in a development phase with your corners, then your defensive front better be nasty. That's my idea. Right? That's my idea.

[Tommy Arsh]

Sure.

[Isaiah Stanback]

That's my thought process. If you. If you don't not in a position to go grab for sure thing at corner, which that time has passed. Right. Yeah. The free agencies pass. You've got your guy. Right. And you know, you. You got your Durant. That's your acquisition there. And now you go to the draft and you grab somebody else. Right. But outside of that, the. The market's slim at corner unless you want to spin Right. On somebody who's been out for a minute. Right. Or who's waiting for the perfect opportunity. Either way, if you're in a position where you got to pay some real money for a corner. So most likely you're with the Cowboys. They're in a development phase. Right. The guys that we have is. We're sticking in. We're sticking picking and licking it, like I said. Right. And we have to develop our guys. So if I'm not going to be dominant there, which you're probably out of that. Out of that window now, where can I be dominant to. To make their job easier.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I better get to the dog on quarterback. Right. So that's what I'm saying. If you're going to add more pieces, you better pick up another linebacker. Yeah. Or a real one. Okay. Pick up another linebacker. And I know there's still guys Marisley foul and guys that. Who have to prove themselves at that position, who can. Who can play ball. But we have to see how they fit in this scheme. But you better add another tried and true linebacker so that you don't not sitting here worried about who your mic is. And you better add. I think I know everybody wants a pass rusher. I think that you could do just fine bringing back to Davious Clowney. I think he'll be okay in this scheme. But I need another D lineman because I don't want that to ever fall away. I don't want one injury to derail our ability to stop the run. I don't want to be one guy away from us having a significant drop off in productivity because if you lose the difference when you have a 3 4, if you lose one guy, you're screwed.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Yeah. And he's. And if he's not multiple like you're talking about, then four.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Three. We kind of. Kind of scheme some stuff away. But when we're in the 34 and we lose one of those three guys.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yeah. It's tough.

[Isaiah Stanback]

It's tough. So you better have a backup.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Let's pivot the conversation because this is something I think you'd be really interested in, Isaiah, because on Dallas Cowboys.com backup Tommy is going through all of our rookie selections, the rookie draft class, and watching tape on these. Oh, watching. He's a film guy, all right. Arguably the biggest film guy on this podcast currently.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Damn right.

[Josh Rodriguez]

Tommy, tell us about tape talk and what you're seeing so far from the

[Isaiah Stanback]

rookie class of all.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I like that a guy that watches.

[Tommy Arsh]

I appreciate it. Yeah, tape talk is fun for me. I really enjoy watching film and seeing, you know, what guys. Well, what guys don't do well.

[Josh Rodriguez]

One second. Before we get into that, I think we might have a special introduction to tape talks.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Tommy on the screen tonight studying every move Cowboys on the tablet light he's in that NFL group. Dress blacks, gym socks, button up Chuck. Has no in between. Page by page he clocks it snap by snap he goes hands up when the plan hits, watch how the whole thing goes.

[Tommy Arsh]

I got you.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I got you.

[Josh Rodriguez]

And we got you. Tommy talking out about breaking down a tape.

[Tommy Arsh]

Tape talk, baby. Thanks, Christine. I don't want to talk over. Yeah, it's fun to just turn the. I'm not going to act like a, you know, a super film junkie or anything like that, but just being able to see what guys do well. What guys do well. I mean, you know, I wasn't like Isaiah. I didn't play in the league. But I like to think I know a couple of things and, you know, I'm always open to corrections if anybody wants.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I would love to watch film with you, sir.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yeah, let's do it. But just to bite back. I'm always looking to learn, but this has been fun to kind of share with everyone and be like, hey, this is what I'm seeing.

[Josh Rodriguez]

It's one of my favorite.

[Tommy Arsh]

The great things about film is everybody sees different ways. Right. So I really enjoy getting to watch it and see all the different aspects. But yeah, we're going through the rookie class at the moment. So Caleb Downs, Malachi Lawrence and Jayshawn Barham, or Bar Ham, I should say, excuse me. Are on the website. Drew Shelton for the offensive tackle for Penn State will be up later today. You know, with downs, we talk about it so much. It's the cerebral things, the. The middle of the field, the instincts. Malachi Lawrence is. You see why this staff is excited on some snaps because he has that twitch off the line. He always attacks the football. He's a guy that could get you, you know, a couple forced fumbles this year. I wouldn't be surprised at that. But you're going to have to see him grow as a run defender. He's not necessarily a set the edge guy and it might take him a little bit to come along as an NFL pass rusher. And then Barham is just fascinating prospect because east to west, he moves so well. He can cover so much ground, but

[Josh Rodriguez]

is a Diagnosis there it is there

[Tommy Arsh]

at times, but it's maybe a half a tick behind. And I think the first play that we looked at was one where you see that he gets away from the second level climber, but he's still late to get to the. Excuse me, he's late to get to the gap. And then two plays later we look at him going up against a kid who won the 4 by 100 state championship in Texas high school track and set the national record by 3/10 of a second with his team and you see him chase him down east to west and doesn't let him turn the corner and score an easy touchdown.

[Isaiah Stanback]

So some things you can't teach.

[Tommy Arsh]

Yeah. And that speed is something that the 40 time wasn't like oh my goodness with Barum. But you can still see him track that ground and cover that space with the pads on. And that to me is more important when it comes to your linebacker. But you also see Michigan say, hey, we're going to move you to the edge spot and see what you can do there. And he did some good things there. There's the play of him stacking and ripping and he just throws a right tackle off of him and gets in the quarterback's face. So it's been a really, really fun time breaking down these players and hope you guys keep reading.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I love it, man.

[Isaiah Stanback]

That's freaking awesome. And just to kind of piggyback on some of the things that you just mentioned, especially in regards to Barham, the instinct that you're talking about, right? The read and react, the sideline, the sideline speed. Yeah, the, the diagnosis can be improved, right? Yeah, that's what I want to help that you can.

[Josh Rodriguez]

That's especially the more confident you get in a defense that you have some time with. And clearly he's getting it now.

[Isaiah Stanback]

Absolutely. We've seen, seen, we've seen players, I mean, bring up like a Ray Lewis, Right. I'm not making a comparison, but I'm saying, of course, people who've played around this league for a very long time, why were they able to play and be effective for so many years? Because when their bodies were starting to shut down, their minds were elevated and they allow for them to play faster than what their bodies would typically go. Right. So you can improve instinct, you can improve diagnosis. Right. But those, those physical instincts, right, Those read and reacts, those sideline to sideline a 40 time. That's the reason why some guys play faster than their 40, 40. Right. Some guys play significantly faster than they're 40 when. That's why when you see guys running 40s, like, oh, man. Well, his film, he plays faster than that because they humanly possible, you. You're able to run faster if I'm running. I was just showing Beamer a film of my daughter running in a 4x1, right? My daughter was able to run faster running somebody down, right. Than she would be if she was just a line up in 100 meters and run straight. Right? It's just something about it, right? So 40 time is relevant sometimes, right? But when you have those guys that are sideline to sideline guys, there's an intensity factor and a competitiveness that's like, no, he's not turning that corner on me, right? Those are the things that you can't teach as a coach, as a position coach, as a coordinator. I can't teach that. I can't teach that instinct. I can't teach that willingness. I can't teach that competitiveness. But what I can teach is for them to be able to diagnose things earlier so they can use those same attributes earlier. Right? So that's what I'm saying. Like the. This coaching staff in this front office seem to have gotten that aspect down. They're like, these are the attributes and characteristics that we really like about this player. Where they are lacking, we can improve, right? Not them. We can improve. We're going to take that responsibility upon ourselves to make sure we invest in this young man and give him the tools and resources so that he can be a better player for us going forward.

[Josh Rodriguez]

I like it. I like those words.

[Tommy Arsh]

Well, remember with Barham too, he challenged a friend of the show, Joe Hoyt, to a Oklahoma drill in the middle. Middle of a press conference. So he's, he's. He's an intense young man.

[Isaiah Stanback]

I like it.

[Josh Rodriguez]

All right, fellas, we have to go. Thank you so much for talking Cowboys. We will be back next week. Same crew, same time, same channel. Chris Beam in the back. Thank you so much. We will see you on Talking Cowboys.

[Isaiah Stanback]

This has been a production of Dallas Cowboys.com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club. How about this? Cowboy Sam.