Talking Feds Podcast Summary
Episode: How Trump Demolished the DOJ
Host: Harry Litman
Guests: Carol Leonnig (B) & Aaron Davis (C), Co-authors of Injustice
Date: November 4, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode is a roundtable with Pulitzer-winning investigative reporters Carol Leonnig and Aaron Davis, whose new book Injustice tracks the fate of the Department of Justice (DOJ) across three key periods: Trump’s first term, Garland's restoration (Biden years), and a catastrophic second Trump administration. Host Harry Litman leads a deep dive into their findings, focusing on the DOJ’s subversion under Trump, attempts at repair under Garland, and the current existential crisis. The conversation is a blend of fresh reporting, analysis, and thoughtful warnings, with particular attention to the impact on career DOJ professionals and the future viability of the department.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
Act 1: Trump’s First Term – DOJ Under Siege
[03:31]
- Andy McCabe Case as Harbinger:
- Trump’s public demands for prosecution were unprecedented, sending a chilling message to DOJ/FBI that its mission was being politicized.
- Leonnig: "It's the first time a president was publicly calling for someone's head... career prosecutors... thought the chances of winning the case were nearly nil because of Trump's own public comments and that the prosecution was likely vindictive."
- Mueller Report and Bill Barr’s ‘Trap’
- Barr’s summary diluted Mueller’s findings, derailing a hoped-for national reckoning over Russian interference and Trump obstruction.
- Davis: "Mueller believed that they would deliver this report, that it would be presented fairly... and in fact, as we all saw, got buried. The narrative was lost in the public..." [06:16]
- The January 2021 DOJ Showdown
- In a dramatic White House meeting, DOJ officials threatened mass resignation as Trump pressed for false claims of fraud. The confrontation nearly resulted in a DOJ-enabled coup.
- Leonnig: "We came, you know, millimeters from a bizarre abuse and manipulation of the Department of Justice to overturn a free and fair election..." [09:00]
- Memeorable moment: Acting Deputy AG Rich Donahue "is running in muddy jeans across the Washington Mall to get to the White House for this meeting. So, so urgently does he fear that the Department of Justice is going to be taken over in a nonviolent coup."
- Jeff Clark emerges as the would-be tool for Trump's scheme; the contrast is drawn between then and "Trump 2.0", where no guardrails remain.
- Takeaway: The DOJ, though "bruised," resisted Trump’s most egregious pressures—barely.
Act 2: Garland & Biden – Attempted Restoration
[11:24]
- Garland's Philosophy and Caution:
- Garland brought an "arm's length" approach, drafted protocols on DOJ/White House separation, and was determined to not be Trump: "You answer to the rule of law, to the American people." [11:38]
- Purposeful avoidance of even an appearance of politicization led to hesitation and, perhaps, overcorrection.
- Slow Pace of January 6th Investigation
- DOJ battered, demoralized, and cautious after Trump era. Agents and prosecutors receded from aggressively pursuing Trump and his associates.
- Leonnig: "The blows and bruises that the Justice Department and especially the FBI took in the first Trump administration were so much worse than anybody knew at the time." [12:54]
- Davis: "They were so focused on the rioters... all of their bandwidth." [14:54]
- FBI Reluctance
- Notably, Steve D’Antuono (head of D.C. field office) resisted pursuing Trump’s allies, wary of being perceived as political and of intruding on privacy.
- Leonnig: "When he goes to Steve Dantuano and says, here's the grand jury I'd like you to be involved in... Dantuano says, we're not subpoenaing the frigging Willard." [16:51]
- Contrast: Mar-a-Lago Search
- On the documents case, both Garland and FBI were decisive, suggesting "sedition against the president" proved a paralyzing, unique challenge.
Special Counsel Jack Smith – Relentless and Rigorous
[20:46]
- Smith’s Personal and Professional Intensity
- Endured severe injury and still launched investigations at "stunning" speed, particularly on classified documents.
- Leonnig: "I've never seen anybody bring an indictment in those complex cases... in six to seven months’ time." [22:17]
- Character and Leadership:
- No-nonsense, focused, close-hold; expects total commitment from staff ("basically, get back to work"). [21:01]
- Mastery of DOJ protocols; meticulous.
Could DOJ Have Worked Faster? – Limits and Consequences
[25:15]
- Delay Unlikely to Have Changed Trump Prosecution Timeline
- Litman: Supreme Court’s involvement, inevitable delays, and Trump’s tactics made pre-election conviction virtually impossible—even if started earlier.
- Davis: "What I don't think we can know... is how the complete absence of this investigation regarding the president and his actions leads to an emboldened Donald Trump..."
- Insight: The vacuum emboldened Trump and set the narrative.
Act 3: Trump’s Second Term – DOJ Demolished
[27:02]
-
Pardons and Purges
- Mass pardons for January 6th offenders devastated career professionals who’d worked the cases. Resource allocation also highlighted internal dissension—some agents felt too much effort was spent on misdemeanors.
- Leonnig: "People were devastated when that happened. People had worked on the cases, even people that hadn't worked on the cases... they're decimated that cases they worked on are tossed out as unimportant." [27:56]
-
Immediate Retaliation
- After pardons, colleagues were fired, lists of agents demanded for likely retribution; career officials pivoted to survival and protection.
- Leonnig: "I want the names of all the FBI agents that were involved in this case. He's preparing for a purge." [28:13]
-
Political Power in DOJ
- Trump loyalists (Stephen Miller, Pam Bondi, Todd Blanche) seen as enforcers, with senior DOJ officials accused of directly appeasing the White House.
- Davis: "There is a sense that... they were trying to appease the White House." [30:48]
-
Chilling Atmosphere for Career Professionals
- Rampant fear; minor references to January 6th can get prosecutors suspended. Supervisors try (often at risk of their own jobs) to shield subordinates from political retribution.
- Leonnig: "Career prosecutors are obviously extremely wary of themselves being fired... that is this sort of defensive mode that a lot of career people are in." [32:07]
The Human Toll and Desolate Outlook
[34:46]
- Stories of overwhelming demoralization and a sense that “the genie’s out of the bottle;” longstanding expertise lost, institutional memory eviscerated, and DOJ’s reputation in tatters.
- Davis: "I don't think people realized how much this work is a calling, how much... people take smaller paychecks, work long hours, you know, away from their families."
- The devastation of January 6th is compounding with each new blow.
- “Zombie minefield”: The current DOJ is depicted as hollowed out, its remaining professionals beset by fear and suspicion.
Can DOJ Ever Be Restored?
[37:07]
- Leonnig: “Do not believe the Department of Justice is going to return to this semblance of itself. For decades. I mean, the reasons are obvious... we've taken out centuries of expertise... The centuries that are lost are stunning to even the colleagues who looked up to those role models.”
- Rebuilding is a herculean, perhaps impossible, task—especially if cycles of politicized retribution become the norm.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Trump’s pressure:
- Leonnig: “It's the first time a president was publicly calling for someone's head.” [03:31]
-
On DOJ’s near breaking point:
- Leonnig: “We came, you know, millimeters from a bizarre abuse and manipulation of the Department of Justice to overturn a free and fair election.” [09:00]
-
On FBI resistance to Trump investigations:
- Leonnig: “We're not subpoenaing the frigging Willard.” [16:51]
-
On what was lost:
- Leonnig: “We've taken out centuries of expertise in counterterrorism, in counterintelligence, in violent crimes. We've just whacked them.” [37:07]
Key Timestamps for Important Segments
- 03:31 – Harbinger: McCabe prosecution as DOJ politicization begins
- 06:16 – Barr’s summary “trap” for Mueller
- 09:00 – Near-DOJ coup in January 2021
- 11:24 – Garland’s approach in the Biden era
- 12:54 – Causes for DOJ/FBI reluctance post-Trump
- 16:51 – FBI leadership resists Trump-focused investigations
- 20:46 – Profile of Jack Smith and his work style
- 25:15 – Debate on whether prosecution could have run faster
- 27:02 – The stage of mass pardons and internal purges
- 32:07 – Chilling effects for career DOJ/FBI
- 34:46 – The culture and loss felt by DOJ professionals
- 37:07 – Outlook for DOJ recovery
Episode Tone and Takeaways
The discussion is sobering, urgent, and passionate. Both guests and host are grave about the threats to a core institution of American democracy. The loss of expertise, morale, and legitimacy at the DOJ is felt as both a personal tragedy for career professionals and a critical danger for the Republic. The episode pulls no punches in warning that restoration—if possible at all—will take decades and may require entirely different expectations about the DOJ’s role and resilience. The mood is reflective, tinged with disbelief, concern, and a sliver of hope only in the possibility the Republic endures to attempt a rebuild.
This summary captures the substance, flow, and spirit of the episode, highlighting the combination of investigative detail, personal narrative, and institutional warning that Injustice and this discussion provide.