Podcast Summary: Talking Feds – Inside the DOJ’s Unravelling under Trump

Host: Harry Litman
Guest: Emily Bazelon (Staff Writer, New York Times Magazine; co-host, Slate’s Political Gabfest; Yale Law School)
Release Date: November 20, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Talking Feds features a one-on-one conversation between Harry Litman and journalist Emily Bazelon, whose recent in-depth article for the New York Times Magazine uncovers the unprecedented turmoil within the Department of Justice during the Trump administration and current tenure of Attorney General Pam Bondi. Drawing from interviews with 60 former DOJ officials and attorneys, Bazelon’s reporting explores the collapse of institutional norms, the human toll on career civil servants, high-profile and little-known incidents of political interference, and the Department’s uncertain path forward.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis and Scope of the Investigation

• Emily Bazelon describes the origins of her exposé:
  • She conceived the project in the summer, noticing a “seismic change” in the DOJ as many career attorneys were resigning, giving unprecedented access for candid interviews.
  • Quote (Emily Bazelon, 04:53):
    “It’s really unusual. They are really taught and their norms hold that they don’t talk to reporters unless they have a lot of authorization or a very good reason. But because what is happening in the Justice Department feels to them like such a seismic change… a real unraveling... some of them are willing to talk... about what it was like for them.”

2. The January 6th Pardons and Its Fallout

• Litman and Bazelon recount the shock and dismay among federal prosecutors over the sweeping pardons of January 6th offenders, which undercut years of investigative work.
  • Quote (Emily Bazelon, 09:08):
    “There was a lot of evidence… hundreds of people who... there was evidence of violent crimes and... serious injuries to police officers… all of that work, as one prosecutor said, just four years of work wiped away, in his view, for a lie… to facilitate that myth… you had to decide that all these people actually were innocent and did not deserve to be punished.”
  • Memorable Moment (Harry Litman, 10:14):
    “Up to the current recent proclamation, which basically says there was a love in… everyone was politicized and mistreated by the Biden administration…”

3. Attorney General Pam Bondi’s Radical Overhaul

• On Bondi’s first day, she issued 14 sweeping directives (dubbed “Pam Bondi’s mixtape” by DOJ staff)—from policy changes to trivial edicts like mandatory paper straws, signaling a disregard for department norms and priorities.
  • Quote (Emily Bazelon, 11:38):
    “There was also a kind of edge of humor and a kind of gallows Humor... but... serious blows to how they do their job. ...It no longer seemed clear that the United States, rather than the President, is the client, in their view.”
• Previous safeguards allowing attorneys to refuse to sign briefs on ethical grounds were removed, causing significant unease.

4. The Adams Case Showdown

• In a dramatic episode, Emil Bové (Principal Associate Deputy AG, later 3rd Circuit Judge) attempted to force the Public Integrity Section to drop a case lacking merit; senior prosecutors resisted, with most prepared to resign rather than sign a false document.
  • Quote (Emily Bazelon, 15:14):
    “[The chief] said no. And then the next morning, there’s this meeting… telling them to sign the order. And… they decide, almost all of them, that they’re willing to resign rather than sign it… One older person… steps forward and says, ‘You know what, I’ll sign this.’...as a kind of act of heroism... to let everybody else off the hook.”

5. Pressure and Dilemmas for Career Lawyers

• Many attorneys hoped the situation would improve if they “held on,” only to find things steadily deteriorated. Departures were often rooted in moral and ethical conflicts—not ideology.
  • Quote (Emily Bazelon, 17:40):
    “20% of the people who left in the last year said they left because they were worried about or had been asked to do something they thought they couldn’t do as a lawyer… it just wasn’t tenable.”
  • Economic realities for former DOJ lawyers in the DC area were stark, with saturated job markets compounding the cost of leaving.

6. Civil Rights Division and Increasing Isolation

• The once-proud Civil Rights Division has been "hollowed out," particularly after Harmeet Dhillon’s appointment, with career attorneys isolated from leadership.
  • Quote (Harry Litman, 19:49):
    “Something you say about [Dhillon] put me in mind of a... question... She just doesn’t interact… there’s literally no kind of collegiality or respect. Otherwise, she’s simply isolated in office.”
  • The administration’s view of career employees morphed from respect to open vilification.
    • Quote (White House spokesperson Abigail Jackson, 21:52):
      “These are nothing more than pathetic complaints lodged by anti Trump government workers. President Trump is working on behalf of the millions... not the D.C. bureaucrats...”

7. Cultural Erosion and “Deep State” Paranoia

• Trump-era loyalists led by officials like Russ Vought have actively worked to “traumatize” and purge the civil service, branding career staff as the “deep state.”
  • Quote (Emily Bazelon, 23:08):
    “You’re kind of shoving people out the door, making them feel like they are the, quote, deep state. ...all those things are kind of out the window when the president and his officials are speaking of you with such scorn.”
• The effect: Widespread demoralization and uncertainty inside the DOJ.

8. Life Inside the DOJ Now: “Hollowed Out” but Still Standing

• Many attorneys remain, “hunkering down,” doing their best under adverse circumstances, with the hope of someday restoring the department’s mission.
  • Quote (Emily Bazelon, 24:42):
    “I think for a lot of people, it feels really hollowed out. ...They are hunkering down. ...hoping to make it through and help rebuild the department on the other side.”
• But significant regional differences remain; some district offices (like Connecticut) report less disruption.

9. The Challenge of Rebuilding and Restoring Norms

• Reinstating post-Watergate norms of DOJ independence may not be feasible, given current incentives for presidential control.
  • Quote (Emily Bazelon, 26:39):
    “The idea that American federal law enforcement could lose that real buffer between the President and this incredibly powerful agency... should give us all pause… it doesn’t matter what your partisan affiliation is... we’re going to have turnover, retaliation and a kind of cycle every time. And that seems, like, really worrisome.”

10. Notable Moments & Quotes

• Former Civil Rights Division attorney Dina Robinson (on the record):
  • Quote (quoted by Litman, 29:19):
    “I wouldn’t even call it the Justice Department anymore. It’s become Trump’s personal law firm. ...I keep telling my colleagues still working in the division that I’m holding the line with them from the outside, but I feel guilty that I’m not holding the line with them from the inside.”
• Bazelon on the difficulty of public engagement:
  • Quote (Emily Bazelon, 31:53):
    “Law can feel abstract and dense and hard to grasp… why should people care about it? ...We tried to bring this to life from the inside and give really concrete examples…”

Selected Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:44] – The human toll of DOJ upheaval
• [08:13] – Prosecutors’ shock and despair post-pardons
• [11:38] – “Pam Bondi’s mixtape” and the culture shift
• [14:06] – The Adams case showdown and mass-resignation threat
• [17:40] – Why career attorneys reluctantly walked away
• [21:15] – Breakdown of camaraderie and respect inside DOJ under Trump/Bondi
• [23:08] – DOJ employees labeled “deep state,” demoralization campaign
• [24:42] – What life is like for those left inside DOJ
• [26:39] – Why restoring DOJ independence will be so hard
• [29:19] – Striking on-the-record quotation from Dina Robinson
• [31:53] – Bazelon on why these stories matter, and the challenge of public awareness

Memorable Quotes

• Emily Bazelon (04:53):
  “Because what is happening in the Justice Department feels to them like such a seismic change from their point of view, a real unraveling of the department.”
• Emily Bazelon (09:08):
  “Four years of work wiped away, in his view, for a lie. Because really what's at stake here is President Trump's version of this day...”
• Emily Bazelon (17:40):
  “20% of the people who left in the last year said they left because they were worried about or had been asked to do something that they thought they couldn’t do as a lawyer.”
• Dina Robinson (quoted by Harry Litman at 29:19):
  “I wouldn't even call it the Justice Department anymore. It's become Trump's personal law firm.”
• Emily Bazelon (26:39):
  “If the President can use the Justice Department as a tool of revenge and reward, like, it's then going to flip… and that seems, like, really worrisome.”

Tone & Style

The discussion is grave, honest, and deeply human, focusing on how institutional rot seeps into daily work, personal ethics, and the future of American democracy. Bazelon and Litman balance legal insight with a real sense of loss, urgency, and concern for what comes next.

Final Thoughts

Harry Litman:
“Everybody, read it.... The article is called The Unraveling of the Justice Department: 60 Attorneys on the Year of Chaos Inside Trump's Justice Department..." ([33:17])

Emily Bazelon:
“I hope people read this and I hope the lawyers in it get more chances to speak out.” ([33:17])

For listeners unfamiliar with the granular events inside the DOJ, this episode delivers a vivid, accessible, and harrowing account of how swiftly and methodically vital governmental norms can be unraveled—and leaves open the urgent question of whether they can ever be restored.