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- [00:00]
Harry Littman
Foreign welcome to Talking Feds One on one deep dive discussions with national figures about the most fascinating and consequential issues defining our culture and shaping our lives. I'm your host, Harry Littman. Welcome to another Talking Feds one on one with a really important member of Congress these days and one of the most visible leaders of the resistance to Donald Trump, dating back to Donald Trump 1.0. I'm talking of, of course, Congressman Eric Swalwell, who represents California's 14th district in Congress, where he serves on the House Judiciary Committee, the Homeland Security Committee. Before coming to Capitol Hill, Congressman Swalwell was a prosecutor, just a line prosecutor in the Alameda County Attorney's office. So he knows whereof he speaks about justice on the ground, which is a big issue now. And he served in a number of local government roles. Always a pleasure. It's been too long to welcome the Talking Fed. Thanks so much.
- [01:14]
Eric Swalwell
My pleasure. Thanks for having me back.
- [01:16]
Harry Littman
Okay, so we're taping after the massive, even more than predicted, no Kings protests. You, I believe, attended one. Just give me your sense of the scene. What'd you see, what was the kind of vibe, any favorite signs or costumes, et cetera.
- [01:35]
Eric Swalwell
I started the morning at the state capitol in Sacramento and there were over 10,000 no Kings protestors there. Many families, a lot of baby strollers. You know, as a dad of three little kids, you kind of track the baby strollers that are around. And it was a rally that was full of love for America and a hate for fascism and, and that was it, plain and simple. People who showed up, they love this country. They just don't want to lose it to an aspiring dictator. And also in California, by the way, we are just about two weeks out from Prop 50 being decided. And so I went from Sacramento to my district and went to a second rally in Pleasanton. Now, Harry, I think you know of Pleasanton, California, you know, this is a suburban community. I would describe it as probably purple. I've never seen so many people turn out in one suburb space in Pleasanton. About 5,000 people at the Pleasanton event. And it was so inspiring. Again, it was full of families. And also it wasn't just, you know, people from out of town coming in because as I saw cars drive by and the streets were lined with protesters, there was non stop honking for the, for the solid hour that I was there. So the people inside the community who weren't at the protest, you know, we're honking in solidarity. And so I feel pretty good that they understand the assignment you know, from Sacramento to Pleasanton. And when it comes to Prop 50, we're going to have a pretty good showing on election night.
- [03:22]
Harry Littman
That referring of course to the, the proposition that would permit California to add three.
- [03:29]
Eric Swalwell
That's right.
- [03:30]
Harry Littman
New members to counteract Texas. Oh would be five. Pardon me. Yes, but look, this was really my impression as well and in particular that kind of, I think the best word is patriotic. Love of country and concern for what Trump is doing. So what do you make of the rhetorical strategy of the White House and Mike Johnson actually calling it. It strikes me as like pure Orwell. Truth is fiction. It was a hate America rally. All, all, I guess antifa and terrorists. It's, you know, what, what planet are you on? But they've, they've chosen it very, I think strategically, you know, what do you make of it?
- [04:19]
Eric Swalwell
Yeah. So they don't know what to call it. Right. Because it started with calling it a hate America rally and then you saw record turnout and it puts you in a weird position if you know, seven plus million Americans are showing up for a hate rally because that means that they don't like you. But it wasn't, as I said, it wasn't a hate rally. And then in the last 48 hours what I've observed is, you know, a mocking from the right of the people who showed up at the rally and of course, you know, to prove that everyone else hates America and he loves America. Donald Trump posted an AI video depicting himself like literally shitting on America. So you know, take you imagine.
- [05:01]
Harry Littman
Yeah. What you will, you know, Pleasanton you mentioned. But I mean I, that's just middle America. I think the other word I'd really use here is wholesome that you know, the notion of, you know, that there was anything but patriotic fervor. So it's really plain to me, you know, a quick question this broader about the notion of popular sentiment. Congressman. So man, a rough period in the country. Congress really letting everyone down. The court's really good at the, you know, the lower levels. But now the, the Supreme Court, which just received another emergency motion about the sort of militarization, a big, big one in my opinion. So how do you see, you know, when you think about. And I'm sure you feel this question all the time. I know I do. You know, will our. Will the democracy survive? It's a little bit hard to think how do you plug in this fact of great popular resistance, fervor, patriotism, just. And what to me is really important, you know, that everyone from first grade pledge of allegiance. This, you know, you have a kind of ballast of democracy that you don't have in Hungary, Turkey, et cetera. How do you think that force, you know, kind of, kind of plays out or how do you think of it when you game out, how, how bad the situation is and where we're headed?
- [06:28]
Eric Swalwell
So the midterms are everything. It's our last, best chance to uphold democracy. But in the meantime, on the way to the midterms, I see democracy as a table that, you know, sits on top of four legs that, that hold it up. The first leg is a Congress that would check abuses of power by the executive. The second leg, of course, being an independent judiciary. The third being a free press, and the fourth being a town square full of pissed off, peacefully dissenting protesters. That first leg is gone. It was never there. There's not a check by Congress. But the independent judiciary has surprised many of us as we see Trump appointed judges of all people ruling against the president and putting sand in the gears and slowing down the cruelty and the corruption. The free press, you know, many of them have caved, but not all of them. And we're seeing independent reporting that exposes, again, corruption. You know, Americans being detained, a president enriching himself and his family through the Oval Office, you know, unauthorized military strikes. And so the press continue to expose this president and his administration for who they are. And then, of course, from the town halls that have been full every single time a Republican holds one to the town squares, like the two no Kings rallies and the hands off rallies, people are showing up. But, Harry, my fear is if we don't get this right and we don't win the midterms, the next leg that would go after the check by Congress would be the town square. If people are so demoralized that there's no way to truly rein in these abuses, I think they stop showing up to the protests and they stop going to the town halls. And then that makes it easier for the president to pick off the other two legs, to just ignore court orders and to suppress and cancel, as he's tried to do with members of the press. And so the midterms are really everything. The other three legs can hold up democracy and get us there, but we have to win the midterms.
- [08:30]
Harry Littman
Yeah. And by the way, that is then precisely what autocracy looks like. If you look at other countries that have gone that route at that point, once the law is being able to be exploited, you're still going, you know, getting your coffee and haircut, but you now effectively live that on the other side. It is a terrifying prospect. And one of the reasons, I think, that this weekend was really booing. Okay, in the middle of three weeks of a shutdown and nobody seems very, you know, urgent about opening things up. The, the Dems have chosen health care and the extension of subsidies as the sort of linchpin issue. Why that issue and what would make the, you know, Congress actually see this in the sorts of urgent terms that they have in past shutdowns.
- [09:24]
Eric Swalwell
So Democrats are not asking for any new spending or new program. We're asking to extend subsidies that have been put in place that lower health insurance premiums for the, for, you know, poor and middle class Americans. And if that's not you, you're still affected by it because the way insurance works, the more people who are insured, the less that all of us pay. And so if fewer people are able to get insurance and they only go to the hospital to get their health care, particularly an ER room, then it's going to jack up the costs for all of us. And so every couple of years, Congress has to extend, you know, these insurance subsidies and they expired. And so Democrats are saying we will vote to open up government when you extend what you have allowed to lapse, because on November 1st, millions of Americans will find out what they're paying in the next calendar year for their health insurance. And so this is an imminent issue. The American people are with us. They recognize that Republicans control the White House, the Senate and the House, and they expect them to stand up and make sure that their health care is affordable.
- [10:28]
Harry Littman
Okay, And I hear you. And you know, somebody I think's gotta be miscalculating, right? Because there, it does feel to me that the Republicans are getting kind of nervous that they went into this with a head of steam and thought maybe for a change the shutdown dynamics were on their side, but it hasn't seemed to be. But on the other hand, am I right? No tangible side sign of any kind of real give yet by your worthy colleagues on the other side of the aisle.
- [10:58]
Eric Swalwell
So I'm in Washington today, you know, I'll be back in California tomorrow, assuming that there's not going to be a vote. I've been in Washington, you know, every week that the shutdown has been going on to show that I and my Democratic colleagues are willing to work. And Harry, what's different about this shutdown than the other three that I have served under is that Congress is not in session. And that's a decision that Speaker Johnson has made. And when Congress is in session, during a shutdown, it forces a deal, it forces a negotiation, because you're in the pressure cooker. You're, you know, literally in the same building with the people you need to negotiate with. The press are all around you. They're asking you every single day, what are you doing to open up government, to put federal workers, you know, back on the job to make sure they get paid? And that's just not happening. And the only difference between this shutdown and the last three is that in this shutdown, if we were in Congress, the 218th signature for a discharge petition, that would tell us how close Donald Trump was to Jeffrey Epstein hangs in the balance. And so you can only conclude that they don't want to have a Congress open where Donald Trump would be exposed.
- [12:08]
Harry Littman
In that way even more than they want the government to run. Yeah, this is one where all signs point to Mike Johnson, who was sort of a surprise or accidental speaker. And now, man, he is on the hot seat in several directions.
- [12:25]
Brennan Center Announcer
Talking Feds is supported by the Brennan center for Justice. In this new political era, the Brennan center will do what they do best, defend the Constitution and the rule of law. They're prepared to fight against presidential overreach and will continue advocating for reforms to resist weaponized government, stop billionaires from corrupting our elections, and ensure every eligible American has the freedom to vote. Stay informed by visiting Brennan Center.org Congressman.
- [12:53]
Harry Littman
I really focus on, from my own background, your background as a former prosecutor. What's your sort of take as a prosecutor on the James Comey, Letitia James indictments?
- [13:06]
Eric Swalwell
Clearly, the president, you know, is weaponizing his Department of Justice, especially, you know, against Comey. The testimony that he is accused of lying on happened when Donald Trump was president. So I don't understand why he wasn't indicted then if it was a lie. It's clear that, you know, Donald Trump did not like being held accountable for his own actions on classified information in January 6th, and now he's on this war path. Now, I would just ask you, Harry, because, you know, it's easy for me to say what I would do if I was in Comey's seat. And I may be in Comey's seat soon. But you have to suspect that having an acquittal from a jury of your peers is the best statement that can be delivered against the president and the Department of Justice. And so I wonder, will these defendants exercise their right to a speedy trial and try and receive that as quickly as possible, or will they seek to knock out these indictments through motions practice, whether it's vindictive prosecution or unlawful appointment. And is that as good of a statement? Because the president, you know, will just say that, you know, these are liberal judges. But again, it's easy for me to say because my ass is not in the defendant's seat, and I'm not facing the exposure that a jury conviction would bring. But, you know, those are the legal questions I'm thinking about as I look at these individuals who have been targeted.
- [14:34]
Harry Littman
And strategic ones as well. So we have an answer, actually, in the last two hours. And you're right, Comey seemed like, you know, I thought his. His response was, you know, pitch perfect. And it seemed to be he really wanted the vindication from juries, who, by the way, I don't know if you noticed in D.C. where you are last week, misdemeanor offense, because they tried to do a felony three times against someone who they said obstructed police three, and then did a misdemeanor, and it was an acquittal. But we have this morning motions filed, including by the United States, saying we want to get rid of Fitzgerald on some really tenuous view. But I think, yeah, you know, you've. I'm the defense attorney. I say what Fitzgerald said. I take it it would be the best of all worlds for a jury verdict. I think we'd get it, but, man, oh, man, it's your liberty. We're not taking chances. He has two really strong bases for getting the whole thing dismissed. Way stronger than normal. You know, you've been up with a lot of defense attorneys who just file anything. These are two strong ones. We're gonna see them. So I think the answer is, yeah, we may well see a dismissal. Then we'll see Trump, you know, try to just declare victory and move on. Although Bondi and Halligan, not so easy. Anyway, that fight, pretty much.
- [16:02]
Eric Swalwell
Now, just for your listener's sake, as I understand it, it's pretty hard to remove. To remove counsel of the defendant's choice from the case. Right. I mean, the courts generally, like, strongly will favor the defendant picking their own counsel, and they can waive whatever conflicts that the prosecution allege exist.
- [16:26]
Harry Littman
So this, to me, just seems punitive.
- [16:28]
Eric Swalwell
Against Fitzgerald, that's where.
- [16:30]
Harry Littman
Well, yeah, just so tacky and petty and, you know, commentators normally hate to predict. Yeah, not me. I'm here to say. And I. We're gonna. Haven't even reviewed too careful. That will not happen. What may happen is a dismissal of the whole case because of selective prosecution or Because Halligan is, seems to be improperly appointed. Okay, we just got a second. And I just wanted to ask, you know, about generally now, you've been kind of in the trenches from the start, very high profile in Trump's second impeachment. I think you're still a plaintiff in a lawsuit from the, from the January six attack. You know, what do you, you've just mentioned this may happen to you. You know, do you think the whole retribution campaign goes to Pleasanton next? Does it change your life at all as you're back and forth from your district to D.C. well, it's not going.
- [17:31]
Eric Swalwell
To shake me, Harry, and my wife and I and our staff and our family, you know, we're mindful of the threats the president has made. That in Kash Patel's book, when he listed the 60 enemies of the state, he put Adam Schiff and I at the very top before he even enumerated.
- [17:48]
Harry Littman
Congratulations.
- [17:49]
Eric Swalwell
Yeah, thank you. My kids were thrilled to see their dad in his book. Adam Schiff, I imagine, you know, he is the last remaining targeted defendant in the Dear Pam tweet. But I know Adam Schiff. I talked to Adam Schiff, you know, weekly. He's not going to change. He's not going to shrink. He's not going to hide under the bed. I'm not either. And in many ways that's, that's the aim. And it's aimed also at people who have not even been named yet, just to intimidate them from ever, you know, poking their head out or speaking up against what Donald Trump is doing. And so our strength in numbers really is the only way out of this. I think when we saw, you know, the law firms or the colleges or the media companies, you know, try and strike one off agreements and then he would go back at them anyway. You saw that only if you banded together like, like the law firms that did sign a letter and band together that you have any chance of taking this guy on. And so that's how I'm viewing it. Not going to shrink, not going away, not hiding under the bed. And if, you know they're going to target me, that's just fine because I feel very comfortable about, you know, where I've come out on all of this.
- [19:08]
Harry Littman
Such an important point. And just to, you know, for one, that's really his game. I think they're going to lose most of these cases, but he thinks that's his sort of pound of flesh. But also the point you just made, Congressman, that the impact on people who aren't named that second circle, third circle, do I speak out or will I then be on the list? That is a huge and largely unseen part of this.
- [19:32]
Eric Swalwell
Well, hey, let me just. One last question for you, Harry.
- [19:35]
Harry Littman
Bring it to me. Yeah, I all the time I see.
- [19:38]
Eric Swalwell
It as either we and the most vulnerable in our community can be on our heels or where we have authorities, we can put them on their heels. And one frustration I've had with Democratic attorneys general across the country is that I don't see them using their law enforcement authorities enough. And I'll give you one example. You know, we've seen so many instances of ICE where it appears that they've committed false imprisonment or assault and battery. And as I understand it, you know, they're not completely immune. And that if those crimes did exist in, you know, states where you could prosecute them, where you'd have an attorney general who would do that, you could bring a case. And one attorney general said to me, well, they would just remove it to federal court and we'd have to fight it there. And I said, well, great, like, make them do that, go through the motions. Maybe they won't be so reckless and unlawful in our communities if they know that there's going to be accountability. But do you see that there's more that our attorneys general can do, you know, when there is lawlessness, understanding that there is, you know, federalism issues that we'd have to sort out.
- [20:45]
Harry Littman
One great point. Two, I do think you named all the forces that are not up and being counted. The AGs are doing some stuff and I think more stuff now, including like the lawsuit that's up in the Supreme Court is brought by them and others are, including you in Congress with the bill that may pass saying ICE can't be masked, et cetera, on the actual point of state crimes against guys who violate the Fourth Amendment. And it's happening rampantly today. This morning there's a hearing in the trial court in Cook county by the judge who says, you violated my orders like crazy. The far and away the better kinds of possible motions and pushbacks are at the institutional level making them stop. You probably know this from law school, but to actually get this guy and put him under the under state crimes. It's got 16 different barriers. So it would be kind of quixotic, I think, I think, if the attorneys general around the country were all doing more like Bonta and Illinois are doing, of just fighting them at the institutional level and getting them to be shut down. That's what, that's what we need and you know, actual individual accountability, it would be, would be great. But man, the doctrines built in against that when that's a real, real Hail.
- [22:17]
Eric Swalwell
Mary, win the House and you have real accountability through subpoena power, oversight, power of the purse. Right. That, that changes everything.
- [22:26]
Harry Littman
See and you know, and how pop, how the people fit in that is, is a huge thing to Congressman Swell. Well, as I was saying, you're in the middle of everything, Paris. Power on you. And thanks so much. Hope to talk to you soon on Talking Feds. I know you got votes and other things to do in D.C. thanks. Hi everyone. Normally the credits would roll here, but we did something a little differently today. I was so in awe of Shohei Ohtani's astonishing performance in the Dodgers victory over the brewers last Friday that I had to call up my good friend and baseball reporter extraordinaire, Ben Walker to talk about it and ask whether it was the greatest single game performance in baseball history. We're publishing that conversation today as a little bonus and you may be surprised at Ben's answer. Stick around. You'll hear that conversation in just a moment. Welcome to another Talking Feds one on one. While our one on ones like the other one today with Eric Swalwell often track current events and Trump outrages, we aspire for them to have a broader reach beyond just news and politics to culture, arts, science, business, sports. And hoping to do that more going forward. And we're doing one today. Our one on one is on the topic of Ohtani's Miracle. Last Friday, Shohei Ohtani in one game hit three home runs and struck out 10 batters to clinch the pennant for the Los Angeles Dodgers. Baseball fans all over the country, even the strong cohort that hates the Dodgers passionately, were completely besotted and the online debate began. Was this the greatest single game performance in Major League Baseball history? That's the topic of this one on one. And to explore it, we have the perfect guest, Ben Walker, Big Ben Walker, who has had a storied 40 plus year career as an AP baseball writer retiring a couple years ago. He was my boss and colleague when I worked on the AP Baseball desk many moons ago and a friend ever since. More importantly, for current purposes, he has the most encyclopedic knowledge of baseball of anyone I've ever met. And that's saying something. All of it suffused with a 12 year old fan's great, pure love of the game. So, Ben Walker, welcome to Talking Feds.
- [25:09]
Ben Walker
Well, that's great, Harry Lippman. That is great we had a great time back in New York at good old 50 Rock, you and I, a couple other people, long before your story and ascension in the legal field.
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Harry Littman
I remember the conversation with you about, like, should I go to law school? All right, but enough about us, more about you. You've been covering baseball's biggest moments for decades. When you saw this Friday night, what was your immediate reaction? Wow, another great Ohtani night. Or we just saw something historic and unprecedented.
- [25:45]
Ben Walker
Harry. It didn't look real. It just did not look real. When he hit that third home run, kind of blasted it high into the LA sky, it almost looked like one of those cartoons. Like, I really thought the ball was going to land in his backyard in Tokyo, and his little dog, his little Kukuhanja, was going to come out and fetch the ball and wink. It did not look real. It did not.
- [26:06]
Harry Littman
It was. It was that parabola over the LA night sky. It really was, like, out of the Natural, but not as deft. Right. Amazing.
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Ben Walker
It was, you know, I was there, all right, so, you know, I was there in 1988 when Kirk Gibson hit the big home run at Dodger Stadium. And that was a magical night also. And they interspersed clips of that with the Natural and Robert Redford. But what Ohtani did, I mean, you just don't see it. It's not possible. It's not possible. What we saw is not possible.
- [26:36]
Harry Littman
And we saw it in still not possible. And you've seen perfect games, 20 strikeout, masterpieces, incredible postseason ball. But what about that aspect of just. I mean, you've drawn a kind of, oh, I don't know, romance or quality or almost a sort of fiction notion. I mean, did what. You know. You know, Harry, talk about that part. Yeah.
- [27:03]
Ben Walker
You know, nowadays with baseball, there's so many stats and sabermetricians and numbers and everything gets analyzed and every little thing. How many foul balls you get back in the 1920s and 30s, right. There was a romance to baseball. There was, you know, Babe Ruth promising the kid in the hospital he's going to hit two home runs, whether he did or not.
- [27:22]
Harry Littman
Maybe the. Called shot. Right.
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Ben Walker
Called shot. Right. There is the. In fact, I even talked to Justice Stevens once, the Supreme Court, and he. He said he was there. He told me he was there.
- [27:33]
Harry Littman
No kidding.
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Ben Walker
Wow. He was at Wrigley Field, 1932.
- [27:36]
Harry Littman
He's a big sports guy. He was.
- [27:37]
Ben Walker
Exactly, exactly. There was also a romance. Shoeless Joe Jackson, you know, tracking down balls, and maybe he wore shoes and maybe didn't, but there was a romance. Now if those things happen nowadays, say it ain't so.
- [27:48]
Harry Littman
Joe says our little boy. Right, Right. Yeah. That's where the phrase happens right.
- [27:52]
Ben Walker
Now, some reporter would go to the hospital and say, no, no, it didn't happen and here's why. It would dispel the whole notion. Never happened.
- [28:01]
Eric Swalwell
Right.
- [28:02]
Harry Littman
Yeah.
- [28:02]
Ben Walker
What Ohtani did was one of those feats that you hear about from way back when. It was like old Double X, old Jimmy Foxx, he hit it. He hit, he hit the car. He hit the home run into a, into a box car of a train. And he didn't discover it until the train rolled into Cincinnati. You know, these kind of. Well, what, what happened. What happened with Ohtani had all those elements of something not being real. And yet you can check it. We all saw it. It did happen. It did happen.
- [28:31]
Harry Littman
It's in the books. I mean, Ben, you've written beautifully, I think, about baseball's long arc. So when we. You've already talked about everything from Jimmy Foxx, Shoeless Joe Jackson's, that's, you know, that's the 19 teens and the 20s when people throw around, you know, maybe when there is bar discussions. And by the way, if you ever run into Ben Walker, never get into a barbed with him, he'll beat you. But when they throw around, greatest single game ever. What's the right sort of historical yardstick? I mean, you know, we've got don larson in 56, the gibson thing that you mentioned, maybe Kerry Wood. But what, you know, this is post season, so does context matter? Presumably somebody hits five home runs one day in April. It's not the same. It's the whole setting. What's, how do you, how do you try to compare and evaluate this miracle with others?
- [29:33]
Ben Walker
Well, you're exactly right. October brings a certain mystique and magic. You know, I was actually born on the first anniversary of Don Larson's Perfect Game. I was born October 8, 1957. Larson, Perfect Game, 96 pitches. There you go. That's exactly right. Facing a lineup. Brooklyn Dodgers had five hall of Famers future, all famous, including Jackie Robinson. So obviously, if you did something in October at Yankee Stadium, that is different than doing something, you know, in the 90s at, at Coors Field in May, you know, in 1990, it does make a difference. But now I'm going to tell you this, Harry. I'm going to, I'm going to look at something. I'm going to like an umpire. A lot of time umpires go into the World Series, their supervisors will tell them nothing off the Plate, like call them balls and strikes as you see them, but nothing off the plate to each other. That's a ball. So I'm going to call these as I see them. And this obviously what Ohtani did. Reggie Jackson hitting three home runs, right? No one's ever hit four home runs. What Ohtani did three home runs in a postseason game. Pool, Holtz, a couple others. The great Babe Ruth did it. The context there are great. You know, you grew up in, you grew up in Pittsburgh, so you got the benefit of seeing the great Roberto Clemente. And there were games when Clementi had a great game at the plate and also his arm and fielding, you know, 1971 World Series, great throws to third base and home plate against the Orioles, against my Orioles. But so you mix and match how they, you know, different skills. People, people don't want a five tool player, right? He can hit for average. He can, he can home runs. He can field, he can throw, he can run. Well, Tony's a six tool player. We've never seen this before. No one alive has seen Babe Ruth did it. But even when people talk about Babe Ruth, he did it. The times when he hit and pitched regularly was only like a year and a half overlap. He was a pitcher for a long time, held the record, the World Series record for most scoreless innings.
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Harry Littman
Great pitch, had a perfect game, basically was credited serious pitcher.
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Ben Walker
Yeah, right. And then he became a serious hitter. But to see at the same time, I thought, I mean, I never thought I'd see it. You see it. You know where you see it, Harry? You see it in literally, right? The biggest kid, Every kid is 4 foot 6 and there's a 6 foot 1 kid who throws the hardest dash.
- [31:47]
Harry Littman
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [31:49]
Ben Walker
I remember when I kid, I was the littlest kid. John Cadman threw about a 50 mile an hour heater. It hit me in the ankle and it hurt for four weeks. But I remember those days. Right, but you see in Little league, maybe in high school, you don't see the major leagues. I didn't think we'd ever see it. We saw guys who dabbled with it. All right, now we're going to talk.
- [32:07]
Harry Littman
The greatest, like a man among boys, right? Yeah. So go ahead.
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Ben Walker
You know, there's Lou Gehrig, hit four home runs and a double in a game that's pretty good. Maybe some guy, Mike Cameron, almost came close to five. But you're going to have to incorporate pitching if you're going to talk the greatest complete game, so to speak, you're going to include Pitching and hitting, because that's just beyond the beyond. There have been great hitting games, there have been great pitching games, Perfect games. Roy Halladay, perfect. Yeah, but you have to include both, I think, and this is something. But I'm going to call the balls and strikes as I see him, Harry, right down the plate. And I'm going to tell you that if I'm going to be honest about.
- [32:44]
Eric Swalwell
This.
- [32:47]
Ben Walker
His performance was the most eye popping performance I've ever seen. It was like as again, the most magical. But I'm going to tell you, Harry, I'm not making it number one on my all time list. I am not. I'm not. And the reason I'm not is I remember as a kid, I remember as a kid growing up in Maryland, I remember in 1966, a pitcher named Tony Cloninger, decent pitcher, but he hit two grand slams in a game. A pitcher, he drove in nine runs, pitched a complete game for the Braves, gave up three runs. We thought that was unbelievable, right? But then in 1971, a pitcher named Rick Wise, a good pitcher, won almost 200 games, was a decent hitter.
- [33:27]
Harry Littman
Phillies.
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Ben Walker
Is there a Phillies?
- [33:29]
Eric Swalwell
Right?
- [33:29]
Ben Walker
1971. And in June of 1971, facing a Cincinnati Reds team that had made the World series the previous 70, they have Pete Rose, they have Johnny Bench, they have Tony Perez. Every hitter in their lineup, every hitter in the Cincinnati Reds lineup was at least a two time all star. So that's a really, really good lineup. And in this game in Cincinnati, In Cincinnati, in this game, Rick Wise pitches a nine inning no hitter and he hits two home runs now.
- [34:05]
Harry Littman
Pretty close, right?
- [34:06]
Ben Walker
Yeah, yeah, pretty good. I mean nowadays you can go whole seasons and not see a guy pitch a nine inning no hitter. And there's different contests, you know, context, you know, Ohtani struck out 10 with a fastball. He's bringing his heater at 100 miles an hour. I mean they didn't throw 100 miles.
- [34:21]
Harry Littman
An hour after two. After two Tommy John surgeries, no less. Yeah, right. He's 30, right? Yeah.
- [34:27]
Ben Walker
Rick Wise, in his game he struck out three, which was kind of like a normal number back then. The guys didn't strike out, so the ball was in play a lot. He got Pete Rose to line out for the final out. But a nine inning no hitter, I mean that no hitter has certain, a certain cachet. Even still we see no hitters now and it's a combination of five pitchers, right? I'm the 2020, the 2022 World Series. We have Astros and Phillies and Astros use Five pitchers a single game, no hitter, walk one guy struck out three and he hit two home runs. Now again it's in Cincinnati, it's in June. The Reds don't make the playoff, the playoffs. The, the Phillies don't. But for one day, who would not want to pitch no hitter. A no hitter and hit two home.
- [35:14]
Harry Littman
Runs and a complete game owner.
- [35:16]
Ben Walker
Because he's still alive. As far as I know, he had Beaverton, Oregon still out there. I'm going to give it to Rick Wise. I am.
- [35:23]
Harry Littman
All right. All right. And by the way, I mean it brings up a really interesting part of when you try to make these comparisons. Ohtani hit three home runs, strikes out 10 and they take them out. We're post season, they're very careful about pitch counts, et cetera. No way Babe Ruth has three home runs and they don't keep him in to try the fourth, which is the still remains the record to tie the record. But it's so, it really is a vivid kind of illustration of the way the game has changed as you and this is something you've written about actually the you know, position players and specialization etc. But you know, they take him out after six innings, which you can see, right. You can see why they would do it.
- [36:05]
Ben Walker
If you're still more games, you're going to need them. They're going to need them this coming week which is going to be unbelievable to watch as they go into the World Series. It's so great, I'll say this also, Harry. It's so great to see star players getting a chance at the World Series. You know, you talk about something like Mike Trout, three time mvp. Mike Trout has never played in a single winning postseason game. He was only postseason once they got swept. Ernie Banks never made the World Series. Ted Williams made it once, got a couple singles. You know your Pirates have not been back since 1979. I grew up in Maryland, the Orioles, Cal Ripken was the rookie of the year in 82, 83, they won the World Series. He once told me he thought this was going to be normal and common never made it back to the World Series. So same star players. Ohtani made it last year injured and jammed his shoulder trying to steal a base. Now we're going to see full on Ohtani in the World Series.
- [36:57]
Harry Littman
Amazing, right? And another thing about the series is when people step up, you know, position players or even obscure players and all of a sudden put together an amazing stretch. Okay, you know, but so you travel well. I've got a couple international questions to ask you something that's also new in the game, actually, you just mentioned the series. What do you think? You know, it plays out now with all this sort of royal kind of resentment of Trump everywhere, including Canada. Yeah. Right. So we got the best team in Canada against the Dodgers. What's the. What's the flavor there? You know, what added drama, you know, would you be assigning your cub reporters like me to write about that if you were still at the ap?
- [37:45]
Ben Walker
I think you did just fine. I think we may have gone. I think we may have gone out there once in the 80s to see Dwight Good and Daryl Strawberry for the Mets. By the way, which Ohtani is, you know, he is together.
- [37:58]
Harry Littman
Yeah.
- [37:58]
Ben Walker
Hit the balls off the scoreboard. And he's Dwight Gooden.
- [38:02]
Eric Swalwell
Right.
- [38:02]
Harry Littman
The doctor.
- [38:03]
Eric Swalwell
Yeah.
- [38:03]
Ben Walker
Yes. So he's two players. He's the most valuable player the rest of his life. There's no doubt about it. I'd vote.
- [38:08]
Harry Littman
Well, let me ask you this. I'll cut to the chase on this one. I assume if baseball ended, God forbid, you know, tomorrow.
- [38:20]
Ben Walker
Yep.
- [38:20]
Harry Littman
His. His claim for the best player ever would be. Would be in doubt. Yeah. What. What do you think it takes? I don't know, to retire, to hang him up as this guy's the. The best ever. As people, basically, they've said this of Ruth and one of the. When. When people make the arguments in the bars, one of the points is his pitching abilities.
- [38:39]
Ben Walker
Right.
- [38:40]
Harry Littman
At which, of course, you know, Ohtani brings and, you know, even over Ty Cobb, say people. So does. Does, you know, what's he got to put together? Or do you think he's already there?
- [38:55]
Ben Walker
I think he's pretty close to there. You know, I remember when I started as a young baseball writer and then the 80s and 90s, Barry Bonds was a great player. You saw him in Pittsburgh, course. And it was considered sacrilegious to say, you know, Barry Bonds is better than Ted Williams. People be like, oh, you can't say that. He was. Well, people forever were like, well, you know, Babe Ruth. But baseball and sports and life, things are meant to change and evolve. They always said records are being made to be broken. Ohtani, literally, I think all he has to do, all quote, you know, along with stealing, you know, stealing all the bases, and he just does this a few more years. He is the best baseball player who ever lived. There's no doubt about it. To me, he does things because, again, Ruth pitched and hit, but very short overlap period. Ohtani is doing the same thing at the same time. We have Never seen this before. Which does not mean we will not ever see it. You're not going to see the best ever as a thing you never want to say. Right. You know, Lou Brock stole the bases. No one will ever steer more Lou Brock. Well, Ricky Henderson did steal more than Lou Brock, so you never know. But I think here, you know, again he's done it. He obviously played in Japan. Now he's here in the major leagues in. But I think if he puts together another three or four years like this, there's no reason he won't. I mean he's just, you know, he is so focused. I don't see how you will not consider him the best player, the greatest baseball history. I don't see how you would.
- [40:15]
Harry Littman
And Ben, in the modern in the latter part of your career you traveled internationally a lot for baseball. So you know, did this. Does he and does the game kind of transcend borders the way maybe Fernando Valenzuela did or whatever. What's, what's the story on him, the feel of him in Japan, not to mention Europe or whatever?
- [40:37]
Ben Walker
Well, you can't go to Japan and not go 20ft in the Ginza without seeing Ohtani pictures and Ohtani banners and whatnot. I'll say this about baseball though, Harry. You know, it's like we've seen sports, basketball, NBA, NFL try to go global. Now I'll say this, people always joke I'm sure you the World Series and for a year, you know, it wasn't the World Series. World Series.
- [41:01]
Eric Swalwell
Right. World Series.
- [41:02]
Ben Walker
He, he's huge in Asia based Asian baseball. Korea obviously and there's. And obviously in the Caribbean, the Dominican. Now as far as trying to grow the game that you know, play some Australia. But I'm, you know when you're trying to talk about going to play games in Barcelona or Paris or I'm just not sure baseball is. I'm not sure basketball definitely has that draw. Right. When you see great players from Germany or from Brazil, some players from the African countries. So basketball has that football just a sheer brutality. The American brutality I think has some learn draw guys knocking each other's helmets off and things. But baseball he is certainly people say he's a global phenomena. He is everywhere from New York to Tokyo in Japan I'm not sure in the flyover countries.
- [41:56]
Harry Littman
Right, right.
- [41:56]
Ben Walker
I'm not sure in Switzerland he is as big of a thing as maybe even like Michael Jordan would have been perhaps.
- [42:02]
Harry Littman
Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Maybe he's the guy to do it but Baseball really is never quite caught on broad. I compared a little bit when I was a kid, you know, and devouring Sports Illustrated and stuff. Then there was, like, soccer, which was kind of, huh. But. But Pele came along, and everyone at least knew Pele. Maybe he's the Pele to sort of come. I feel among your peers, Ben, that you especially have a sense of maybe this a little fae, but baseball, like poetry. So, I mean, when you think about this, the night, does it feel, you know, like sort of science and stats or art, something, you know, ineffable? Ineffable. We won't see again that whole cartoon quality. Does it seem almost otherworldly myth, you know, how do you. How do you, like, conceptualize this game myth?
- [42:56]
Ben Walker
When you talk about this and when you talk about it, when people talk about 10 and 20 and 30 and 40 years, you know, people still talk about Kirk Gibson, right? I remember which you.
- [43:04]
Harry Littman
And you said you were there for that.
- [43:06]
Ben Walker
I was. I remember.
- [43:07]
Harry Littman
I remember one leg, and he was.
- [43:09]
Ben Walker
I remember I had written my story. I'd sent it in. The AP used to send your stories, you know, with three outs to go, so they could send it right away. And I had a nice story about Jose Canseco. He grand slam the Oakland A's.
- [43:21]
Harry Littman
Perfect.
- [43:21]
Ben Walker
And then I remember I had. As soon as Kirk Gibson did the home run, I was on the phone, on the phone dictation to our New York desk and Dodger State press box to Jim o'. Connell. And I remember the ball. Kirk Gibson. Kirk Gibson. Kirk Gibson's ball flies the right field stands, and people are going crazy. And now the game's different. I could just remember Ox saying, ben, all right, I've killed your story. Dictate a new one. Go. And I was like. And I remember I started with Kirk Gibson, hobbled into baseball history Saturday night. And I remember.
- [43:53]
Harry Littman
Pretty damn good for that pressure, huh? Well.
- [43:56]
Ben Walker
Well, yeah, Ottko's. Hey, that's. That's pretty good. And I was like, yeah, but I don't got nothing left. That's it. That's it. That's it.
- [44:06]
Harry Littman
You got a lead for this one? What's your lead for this one, boy?
- [44:09]
Ben Walker
I retired, Harry. I did it. You know, I covered every World series game for 33 straight years, you know, voted for the hall of Fame, all the years, all these. I have to say, it is enjoyable right here in this little TV you see in the back. It is enjoyable now to watch the game. As soon as everyone else click, I put on. I put on Tracker or I put on a Rachel Maddow. It's great to kind of be able to do that. I don't even know what you would say, but this game myth is a great word, Harry, because when people describe it, because the home runs, it wasn't just. They weren't fence scrapers. They were out of the ballpark.
- [44:46]
Eric Swalwell
Right?
- [44:47]
Ben Walker
And the fact that it was.
- [44:48]
Harry Littman
He just stands at home plate and these parabolas. Not even like parabolas, really. It's like. What's like an animation out of George Lucas. It's really true.
- [44:58]
Ben Walker
Like animation. I literally thought I was going to turn and morph into a cartoon. The fact that he did it at Dodger Stadium, gorgeous ballpark, everything. And another thing about him, Harry, I would say this is there is a myth and mystique to him, because unlike a Michael Jordan or even like an Alex Rodriguez or a Derek Jean, you don't see him talking that much. You know, you don't know much about him. It took years to find out that his dog. His dog was named Decoy, which is an Americanized name of dog. Just finding ideas about his dog took a lot of. So he is not someone. He does not give a whole. There is a. He's like a man of mystery, and that adds to the myth and stuff. He wasn't like a guy just out there talking. He wasn't Kyle Schwaber showing up on Abbott elementary after hitting four home runs. I mean, this was really. So there's just a mystique about him that just adds to the lore and the legend we were always told at the ap, don't think, don't say a thing is a legend unless it really is not true. Like, Paul Bunyan was a legend. But I'm going to tell you, that was a legendary performance. It was. It was.
- [46:03]
Harry Littman
Man, it's so true. That's really a great way to put it. And maybe, maybe there's an end. But I do want to say, for. If you're one of the, you know, four people in the US Who's a baseball fan and hasn't seen it, the really amazing way to take this in are these two and a half minute YouTube tapes, which go chronologically so you see strikeout after strikeout, three of them. And now he comes up and just as Ben is saying, launches these unbelievable. To the stratosphere. You know, the camera has to go right up into the sky to follow them. And then. And then comes. Comes around. So I think it's, you know, you've talked a lot, Ben and this was just happening as you and I were working together about the sort of domination and overtaking of baseball by the sabrimaticians and all the stats. This was a performance that not only tops out when you draw it out on any kind of graph paper, but tops out when you see it play it on any kind of screen. It really was like, you know, for big baseball fans, it could bring tears to your eyes. Right?
- [47:18]
Ben Walker
You might be able, like you say on a pen and paper and launch angle and exit velo, you might be able to quantify that performance, but you can't. You can't. It's bigger than that. It really, it transcended anything that I'd ever, I think any baseball fan had ever seen. And maybe, maybe for the next time, greatest sports performance possibly ever. You know, there are a couple others out there, but baseball, again, greatest eye popping. Now I'm going to still give kudos to good old Rick Wise out there. No hitter, right? But what we saw there was just. And again, when Rick Wise did it, no one saw the game. You know, nobody saw the game. We all saw it. It's on YouTube. Millions and millions of people have seen it. It was unbelievable. Can't wait to see what he's going to the World Series. And one more thing, Harry, let me ask you this. When you were watching it, now he comes up, he comes up. The last time, was there any doubt in your mind that he was going to hit a home run? No, there was no doubt. Yeah. Was there any?
- [48:12]
Harry Littman
Well, well, I mean to the extent my 12 year old took over and said, well, we're in the stuff amiss. But yeah, there was a doubt that. Think of what the Vegas odds would have been then.
- [48:22]
Ben Walker
Harry, he promised his dog he was going to get three home runs.
- [48:27]
Harry Littman
There you go. Rules a rule. Okay, Ben, such a pleasure talking to you. Next baseball miracle. We'll hope to be in touch and we'll all be watching the series. Till then, talk to you later.
- [48:40]
Ben Walker
Great. Great to talk to you. Great to see you. Thanks guys.
- [48:44]
Harry Littman
Thank you for tuning in to One on One, a weekly conversation series from Talking Feds. If you like what you've heard, please tell a friend to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever they get their podcasts. And please take a moment to rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to us on YouTube where we are posting full episodes and daily updates on top legal stories. Check us out on substack harry litman.substack.com where we're posting two or three bulletins a week breaking down the various threats to constitutional norms and the rule of law. And Talking Fez has joined forces with the Contrarian. I'm a founding contributor to this new media venture, committed to reviving the diversity of opinion that feels increasingly rare in today's news landscape, where legacy media seems to be tacking toward Trump for business reasons rather than editorial ones. Rest assured, we're still the same scrappy independent podcast you've come to know and trust just now linked up with an ambitious and vital project designed for this pivotal moment in our nation's legal and political discourse. Find out more@Contrarian.com substack.com thanks for tuning in. And don't worry, as long as you need answers, the Feds will keep talking. Talking Feds is produced by Luke Cregan and Katie Upshaw, associate producer Becca Haveian, sound Engineering by Matt McArdle, Rosie Don Griffin, David Lieberman, Hansa Mahadrenathan, Emma Maynard and Hallie Necker are out contributing writers. Production assistance by Akshay Turbailu and Sebastian Navarro. Our music, as ever, is by the amazing Philip Glass. Talking Feds is a production of Doledo llc. I'm Harry Littman. Talk to you later. Sam.