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- [00:00]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Harry Littman
Welcome to Talking Feds One on one deep dive discussions with national figures about the most fascinating and consequential issues defining our culture and shaping our lives. I'm your host, Harry Littman.
- [00:23]
Welcome to another Talking Feds one on one from a slightly horse moderator. With Congress wholly absent and the Supreme Court at best erratic, reigning in the power grabs of the Trump presidency, it's fallen to governors, especially in big blue states. To fill the breach, I'm really happy to welcome one of the brightest new faces among them, Mikey Sherrill, the 57th governor of New Jersey. Last time we talked about a year ago, she represented New Jersey's 11th congressional district. In her fourth term. She brings to the governorship a stunningly broad resume of state and federal public Service. Before politics, Governor Sherrill spent nearly a decade in the U.S. navy, much of that as a helicopter pilot, worked as an Assistant U.S. attorney in her home state. She is now coming up on the end of her first hundred days as governor and she seems to be surviving very well. Governor Mikey Sherrill, thank you so much for joining.
- [01:26]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
Well, thank you for having me. It's great to see you again. It's been a while.
- [01:30]
Harry Littman
It has been a while. And I remember the first time I saw you in there was a poorly concealed rumor that you might be thinking about running for the governorship. And here we are. Here we are. And we're approaching the hundred day mark of the Sherrill administration. In your first term, how is it compared with your expectations? Let me just start with a sort of personal question both day to day and in its overall sweep.
- [02:00]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
Well, given my background as both a helicopter pilot and then as an assistant U.S. attorney, over preparation is probably my middle name. It's not as if I entered this eyes wide open. And I knew that there were a lot of challenges, both from some of our historic problems that we'd sort of papered over with COVID money, but then also because of the huge hits coming from the federal government, coming from Trump with healthcare and education dollars, I did not anticipate after pledging to keep us out of forever wars, I did not anticipate that he would immediately try to get us into another one. So that was not on my bingo card. But I think as far as governing in the state, it has been largely what I expect and it's been great. I mean, it is really fantastic in these times to have the power to address the concerns immediately, to come up with a strategy and execute it. And here in New Jersey, that's what we're doing. The legislature is moving very, very quickly. We have laid out an aggressive agenda and people are on board. And it's everything from moving forward on getting rid of a nuclear moratorium and freezing rate hikes here and developing our energy future to holding FIFA accountable as we're trying to put on the biggest sporting event in the world this summer.
- [03:25]
Harry Littman
You know, you use that word execute. And I do think for a lot of governors, especially if they've been elsewhere in public service, the ability to be an actual executive and get things done is such a so refreshing or also challenging. Things happen. You've got to address them.
- [03:45]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
It's so wonderful to be able to address them. I say we hit the ground sprinting because I said I was going to freeze rate hikes. And in the middle of my inaugural dress, I stopped and I signed an executive order freezing rate hikes. I mean, you can move at a really, really quick pace. And once you start to engage and show success, the legislative body, at least in New Jersey, which has largely been. Has worked well together and come up with plans to move forward. The legislative body has gotten on board very quickly, too. There are a lot of things that people in the legislature have been wanting to do. They've gotten on board with this quick pace. And it is really, it's marked a change, I think. And I think this is what it takes in states to respond to a federal government who's moving very rapidly. If we are going to chart a different path forward, if I'm going to protect people here, if I'm going to drive down costs here, it is going to take a lot of quick thinking and reaction and a lot of movement with the executive branch and the governor's office, but also working closely with the legislative branch so we can quickly move forward to protect people and chart opportunity here in our state.
- [05:03]
Harry Littman
You know, you put your finger on what I think is the signature challenge for all governors working with this federal administration. I want to talk about that, but first I'd like to ask you about your. You mentioned it. Many, many of our listeners may not know about your battle with another veno unpopular institution that would be FIFA. What's the controversy and what have you decided to do to combat this. This challenge?
- [05:33]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
So we're hosting here in New Jersey the largest sporting event in the world. We have the final World Cup. We have the World cup final here at the Meadowlands. And I think Americans sometimes don't realize the scale of this, where we have, you know, millions of people that watch this super bowl, billions of people across the world watch the FIFA finals in the World Cup. And so we're really excited and proud to be hosting it there. You know, there is, though. FIFA has demanded that we don't have any parking. They've got, they have different protocols for this final. So what that has meant is that we have to move very, very rapidly, about 40,000 people into the stadium with very few cars, with no parking. So that involves bus transit and involves a train system. And in order to get everyone in and out of there, probably the biggest amount of people moved in such a short period of time, maybe in the country ever. We are going to have to shut down, right? Exactly. Yeah. Another, as we would say in the military, another opportunity to excel here in New Jersey. So we are going to have to shut down some pieces of our rail system to move people in and out of the stadium. And I have said that we're really proud to host this, but I'm not going to put it on the backs of New Jerseyans. You know, the understanding is that these World cup games come with billions of dollars of economic output. And I want to make sure the people of New Jersey feel that, that, that our businesses have more business. And this could be a very good economic uptick at a time when the federal government and President Trump has been harming the economy, you know, with the illegal tariffs, with gas prices, et cetera. So this could be a good, positive news story. But at the end of the day, it's going to be costly to transport people. FIFA has said they're going to make about $11 billion on this final. Here in New Jersey, they're charging up to $10,000 a ticket in the stadium. We're building out fan zones so everyone in New Jersey can enjoy it throughout the state. But in the stadium, you know, tickets can go for as much as $10,000. And so we have upped the ticket price on the rail line because this is not. No New Jersey commuters are going to be taking this. This is simply going to be a closed loop system in and out of the stadium. So we have raised the ticket price to $150. Given that, you know, there were ticket
- [08:10]
Harry Littman
price or the parking.
- [08:11]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
The ticket price for a rail ticket for a rail. Oh, I see $150. Parking at the American Dream Mall is already sold out. I think those went for about 200 bucks. So this is what it's going to cost us to move people. And so we've said, you know, we really think FIFA should probably throw in for this so that they're, you Know, the people that are coming to see their game, that they're making about $11 billion on, you know, those are pretty high prices. If there are complaints. And I think that has been kind of our push, is that FIFA should at least throw in some money here to defray the cost for some of their fans.
- [08:47]
Harry Littman
You've got the Gateway Tunnel project, which is a really big piece of your modernization for the Northeast Corridor rail line. And you had really a classic kind of move by the Trump administration to just pull funding that Congress had appropriated, supposedly because of DEI issues. If I'm getting it right, you've managed to basically win that and make the administration back down with some combination of talking and litigation. The American one, two punch. Tell us about that and how you actually manage to do it. Because so often, especially with the big blue states, it's a really implacable federal administration.
- [09:36]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
Yeah. I think this just goes again and again to how this administration is such a failure when it comes to working people and the economy. By that, I mean, so many of us have been frustrated for years at the crumbling state of our infrastructure. I've been called the tunnel obsessed congresswoman when I was in Congress because it was so important to me to get the Gateway Tunnel done. It had been damaged in Superstorm Sandy. It is the most critical piece of rail infrastructure in the nation, a strategic choke point in the rail of the Northeast Corridor. It goes from six rail lines to one, one in and one out of the city. This is the tunnel between New Jersey and New York. About 200,000 people a day go back and forth. So it's really, really an important piece. And so Congress appropriated money for this. I fought very hard for it in Congress. And Trump immediately, when he gets in office, tries to leverage that money, as he often does. So his first demand was that he wanted to take the Port Authority. He wanted to take the Gateway Development Commission to task for enacting the federal, not state, but the federal DEI laws. And he wanted to walk those back. And then I think the next leverage point he wanted was DHS funding. And then the next piece of leverage he tried to use it for. Never, you know, always holding up the money this whole time, which was illegal because as I've discussed, Congress appropriated that. That he was illegally withholding it the whole time. The next piece of leverage he wanted was he wanted New York, Penn Station and Dulles Airport named after him. So, you know, there were a lot of people on this just saying, why don't you just give it to him? Well, here's the thing. First of all, it's illegal. He had no right to ask for any of that. And second of all, it wouldn't have mattered, because the art of the deal for Trump is to find out a leverage point and just keep using it to get what he wants while never making a deal, while never actually coming through on his side. And we know this in New Jersey. I mean, we've seen him down Atlantic City and the casinos. We know how he operates. And so we sort of flipped the script on him, because the way he operates is he does this and then he takes the little guy to court. So in this case, we took him to court and we said, you know what? This is illegal. We demanded the money, and of course, we won. So he tried to appeal, and then we won again. We're in court again on it for different. For some damages, because at the end of the day, this was money appropriated. He stopped the flow of money. There were about 1,000 people already on the job. I was talking to a guy whose child is severely autistic. He's worried about getting a pink slip and how he is going to manage his health care. And it's also rising costs because the federal government has never been a risky bet, and Trump is now making it a risky bet, which adds all sorts of costs. So that is why we have continued to aggressively work to support people in New Jersey and to drive opportunity and economic opportunity in the state in the face of a very chaotic federal government.
- [12:44]
Harry Littman
Yeah, I mean, it sounds straightforward. Congress appropriated the money. What's the big deal? And yet we've seen that script play out to the feds, if not advantage ultimate, at least being able to delay things in a way that exert all this pressure. So, you know, kudos to you. It's a. It's, I think, a rare victory overall.
- [13:14]
Michael Waldman
I'm Michael Waldman, host of the Briefing podcast. I'm a former White House speechwriter, a lawyer, and a constitutional scholar. And I'm president of the Brennan center for Justice. We work to repair and strengthen American democracy, from gerrymandering to abuse of presidential power, from Supreme Court reform to congressional corruption and more. What fun. You're going to hear new ideas in this podcast, and you're going to hear about the strategies and the legal and political fights that will shape the next phase of American politics. If you care about our democracy, the Briefing is a podcast for you.
- [13:48]
Harry Littman
All right. I want to broaden things, Governor, to some of the battles, but are also playing out on the national stage. And that, I think our listeners know Better. Let's start with immigration. You've been really forceful in your near hundred days in trying to push back against some of the excesses we've seen around the country. I wanted to ask you about the legislation that you spearheaded and just generally, you know, whether you have pause or concern that your leadership here will actually attract, you know, be poking the hornet's nest and make Newark, you know, the next Chicago, Portland, Los Angeles.
- [14:33]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
I came into office right around the time that DHS was killing Americans in Minneapolis, including a mom who had just dropped her six year old off at school, a VA nurse. If that did not cross a red line for people, I'm not quite sure what would. And that's why I said, you know, I'm going to keep people here in New Jersey safe. I moved very aggressively in doing just that, both in making sure that we followed the immigrant trust directive and we actually got a directive that was in the AG's office and we passed it into law to show the people of New Jersey that their state police were going to follow the rule of law and they could be trusted. And it was separate from civil immigration enforcement, which is the federal government's job, in which that's where ICE agents were engaged and where they were not following the law. And we had real concerns so people could see a difference there and know the that their state police and their state police officers were to be trusted. We also moved aggressively on a mask ban because what we were seeing and what we're continuing to see as ICE agents break the law is this untrained force, which we have heard reporting is actually being trained not to follow the Constitution, but to simply answer to Donald Trump is going into states, mass changing license plates on cars, trying to be very unidentifiable, using things that you might use against drug cartels, against the American citizens. It's unacceptable. I don't think any one of these new ICE agents would actually be able to be hired by the New Jersey State Police, who go through a really rigorous training process. I don't think they could be vetted or passed that. That's why it's really important that we continue to work with our law enforcement, with our Attorney General's office, with our state police, to make sure we're keeping people in the state safety safe. And we've also moved because in Roxbury, a Republican town in New Jersey, DHS is trying to open up a mass detention facility in a warehouse. This warehouse is not fit for human habitation. It is a warehouse. It has two bathrooms where they think they're going to house 2,000 people. It doesn't have the sewering system. It doesn't have the roads. It doesn't have the capacity for this. Which is why it's been a very bipartisan issue in the state where the town is joined with my AG's office to take the administration to court to block the ability to move forward on this project.
- [17:10]
Harry Littman
Yeah, this does seem people haven't realized around the country, you bring these things in. Besides the problems with due process and the treatment of immigrants, they can completely overwhelm a local municipality and things like water supply. So how's it going then? New Jersey now says no masks. I don't think that's a rule that ICE is going to say, yes, thank you for that. What's the actual state of play on the streets?
- [17:39]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
Well, as we've come to expect from ice, they've said they're going to flout the law, which they continue to do. So that's why we are asking the people across the state. Where I was seeing results was when people could bring what is going on to light through cell phone videos. Largely. That's how we know what a game changer that's been. What a game changer. And without that, it's been very difficult to hold ICE accountable. We have traditionally in this state worked with federal law enforcement. For years, I worked with them when I was at the U.S. attorney's office. All the time we've had these relationships. But now when we've asked ICE to help us understand what they're trying to do in the state, they continue to refuse to do so. They've put people in danger with some of their engagement in our state. And so I've said to people across the state, this is part of what we've done as well, is we've opened up a portal so that people can download videos and we can see exactly what ICE is doing across the state and then investigate it and make cases if appropriate. So I've also cautioned people, do not get engaged in law enforcement activity. Don't engage, only take these videos if you can do so safely. But we have had quite a few that have been uploaded into the portal and has really helped us understand better what's going on and work to better hold ICE accountable here in the state.
- [19:03]
Harry Littman
Okay. Sort of a general question of approach to Trump. You really are seeing around the country, I think, gradations among governors of how much they want to play ball and how little, how tough, how sort of mocking. You've said governor I don't think there's a good pathway toward working with him. You've got a social media site that kind of mocks him. You've definitely been on that side of things. Give us your sense of both for you and looking around the country for Democratic governors. What the. You know, how to. How to approach a hostile administration that, nevertheless, you need to try to get some results from where possible.
- [19:53]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
Sure. I wouldn't say my social media always mocks him, because that's not really what I'm focused on. What I'm focused on is holding Trump and the entire government accountable, holding our government accountable, and delivering for people. And it seems to be that that is not what we're seeing coming from the federal government, just the recent discussion that somehow they are going to have to cut health care, you know, Medicare, Medicaid funding, cut education funding to fund this war. I used to sit on the House Armed Services Committee. I'm a former Navy helicopter pilot. So I can tell you this Iranian war is. It's not well thought out. Trump himself can't even explain why we're in this war or enunciate a strategy to get us out of this war. And now he's saying he has to cut health care and education funding in order to pay for this war. It makes no sense. So what I have done is really stood up strongly for the people of New Jersey, and I've said, look, I'm going to work with anybody who I can to fight for New Jerseyans. And there are people in the Trump administration I've worked with. I'm happy to convey to Trump. I spoke to him about the need for the Gateway Tunnel funding before we went to court. I also have said that the way this seems to work often is he finds what you want, uses it at a point of leverage to leverage you again and again and again. You never get what you want, but you give up way too much in the negotiation, and that's what I've refused to do. So there is no reason to name any train station or airport after Donald Trump to get Gateway Tunnel funds because Congress legally appropriated those to New Jersey and New York, and. And they need to fulfill their bargain. The President of the United States doesn't come into that, nor should he. At the same time, when it comes to working on how to make sure we have a safe and secure FIFA, we're working with the federal government when it comes to looking forward into nuclear power generation, I'm pushing the federal government to take that on so that we can have an Economy of scale, and. And they can do some of the financing through the doe. There's different transportation issues we're working with them on as well. So I'm working with the federal government in every way I can to get good results, but at the same time, I refuse to back down when it comes to fighting for people here in this state. And I guess I would say, I think New Jersey is carving out a third option, because you have governors who are sort of 100% focused on fighting Trump. You have governors who seem to be really focused on working with him. In New Jersey, I'm just working for the people of New Jersey. I'll fight him when I have to fight him. I won't when I don't have to. But I'm not backing down in any way. That's why I sort of made that comment. Like, I'm not, you know, my social media is not just set up to mock Trump. There seem to be some who are going in that path and drawing real attention to his and fine. And then there seem to be some who are afraid to denounce him in any way. They think that if they just flatter him, they can get whatever they want. I think that's his first administration. I think we've moved beyond that. We're carving out the third way. It's just demanding good governments, demanding the rule of law, demanding people follow the Constitution. If they don't, we'll be in court. We're unafraid to fight here. It's New Jersey. Right. Like, people are willing to take on a fight, and we're pretty pragmatic, and we're just hardcore for working people. And that feels like a little bit of a different move right now.
- [23:39]
Harry Littman
All right. And I would say there's an end, because it does seem like a kind of mission statement. But I can't let you go. As a former ausa, and given my concerns, you just brought up these rule of law issues. You were in the U.S. attorney's office, and your whole public service is about commitment to rule of law. What do you make of Todd Blanche's tenure so far and the sort of state of play if, you know, within the District of New Jersey, your old office, and generally the DOJ around the country.
- [24:14]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
It's been heartbreaking to watch my old office in Newark and again and again just kind of falling down. We've had people there who've been longtime AUSAs who've tried to hold on and tried to hold down the Florida. And I think slowly but surely, you've seen one after another, finally just find their red line and move away. We'll see how it goes. Under Blanchard, Alina Haba was a debacle. And then the continued engagement with Alina Haba after she was supposedly removed was very concerning. And then to even see some people who I'd worked with in the past acting on behalf of the office in a way that wasn't commensurate with where the office was in the past. And in this case, I'm thinking of the whole case with Judge Qurashi and having the appellate office come in and make statements in the court and not follow procedure, where he had them kicked out of court and, you know, really made a strong statement on what he anticipated from the office and demanding to know who was in charge in the office and who was speaking on behalf of the office. I think you're seeing right now many people in the courts standing up, a lot of judges in the courts standing up in a way that's critically important. It's actually why I went to law school, because, if you recall, I was in the military, and we were seeing elected officials seem to have a difficult time in speaking up against any overreach during the Iraq war. So when it came to standing up against torture and rendition and Guantanamo, you weren't seeing a lot of people doing that. And yet it was the courts that were standing in the breach there. And once again, I think we see the court courts there. I know a lot of us have concerns about the Supreme Court, but in many cases, the court's really standing up. And I'd add something that we're in court now on as well. We've had the voter rolls demand it. Trump has demanded the voter rolls, and we're seeing that across the country. Right. And I think already the courts have found against the Trump administration in California, Oregon, and Michigan so far. And I think, you know, will prevail as well that Trump's demanding the voter rules, and, and he's done so. And many of your, your listeners who I, you know, have been engaged in the law will understand he's just stating the law and then going to court stating there is a civil rights law, and so he wants to go to court to check on it. That's not a case. He's. He's not enunciated any wrongdoing in New Jersey. He's not said that there is any reason that they have to do this or that somehow New Jersey is not enacting their responsibilities or, you know, making sure that the vote is secure. He's just said he should get all this access because, you know, really a fishing expedition. And so I've said no. Governors across the country have said no. I know. I remember talking to Josh Shapiro about this before I even got into office about, you know, how he was the Trump administration was demanding voter rolls and he was saying no. But I just worry very much about all the states who are turning all that information over without any question. So this is what's going on. And I think these are the kind of cases that are so important. And governors who are standing up for the people they serve, whether or not you're Republican or Democratic, I mean, standing up for the people you serve is your job. And I think governors as well as courts have a really important job right
- [27:58]
Harry Littman
now, I gotta say, not quite 100 days. And you've got your fingers in everything, both national and not to mention New Jersey Transit and of course, World Cup. Good luck with it all and with taking on FIFA and hope to talk to you again. Congratulations on reaching this landmark.
- [28:17]
Governor Mikey Sherrill
Well, thanks so much. I really appreciate it and great seeing you again.
- [28:23]
Harry Littman
Thank you for tuning in to One on One, a weekly conversation series from Talking Feds. If you like what you've heard, please tell a friend to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever they get their podcasts. And please take a moment to rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to us on YouTube, where we are posting full episodes and and daily updates on top legal stories. Check us out on substack harrylitman.substack.com where we're posting two or three bulletins a week breaking down the various threats to constitutional norms and the rule of law. And Talking Fez has joined forces with the contrarian. I'm a founding contributor to this new media venture committed to reviving the the diversity of opinion that feels increasingly rare in today's news landscape, where legacy media seems to be tacking toward Trump for business reasons rather than editorial ones. Rest assured, we're still the same scrappy independent podcast you've come to know and trust just now linked up with an ambitious and vital project designed for this pivotal moment in our nation's legal and political discourse. Find out more@contrarian.substack.com thanks for tuning in. And don't worry, as long as you need answers, the Feds Will keep talking. Talking Feds is produced by Lou Cregan and Katie Upshaw, associate producer Becca Haveian sound Engineering by Matt McArdle, Rosie Don Griffin, David Lieberman, Hansuma Hadrinathan Emma Maynard and Hallie Necker are our contributing writers and production assistants by Akshaj Turbailu. Our music, as ever, is by the amazing Philip Glass. Talking Feds is a production of Doledo, llc. I'm Harry Littman. Talk to you later.