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- [00:07]
Harry Littman
Welcome to Talking Feds. One on one deep dive discussions with national figures about the most fascinating and consequential issues defining our culture and shaping our lives. I'm your host, Harry Littman. It's great to see such a large crowd. Welcome. Just a quick minute. I know we're all saddened by the events in Michigan a couple days ago. I think everybody knows from coming in. Every single person was wanded, every bag was looked at. There is a significant but subtle security forces here, including the spbd. So just please relax and enjoy the conversation. Okay. Governor, congratulations on the New York Times best selling.
- [00:59]
Josh Shapiro
Thank you.
- [01:01]
Harry Littman
Where we keep the light. I wanted to begin with telling a half a story. I don't want to steal your thunder on it. And I think you'll know it. And you can fill in the second half. So people who have been here have maybe seen bar or Bat Mitzvahs where the. The young man or woman takes on a project, maybe a lot of recycling or help at a food bank. And when the governor was bar mitzvah in the 70s in Elkins park, he did the same.
- [01:35]
Josh Shapiro
70s. Hold on, man.
- [01:38]
Harry Littman
I mean, I'm sorry. In the 80s.
- [01:39]
Josh Shapiro
Born in the 80s.
- [01:41]
Harry Littman
Yeah, we get confused. Let's cap it straight. 52 minus 13. Yeah, I got it. My bad.
- [01:48]
Josh Shapiro
All right.
- [01:51]
Harry Littman
But the project. It's just that you seemed so mature when you did this.
- [01:55]
Josh Shapiro
Because he's making up for it here.
- [01:58]
Harry Littman
Yeah, he had. His mom was very involved in the refusenik movement. People in the Soviet Union who wanted to emigrate and the Soviet Union didn't permit them. He had a pen pal, Avi Goldstein, and his Bar Mitzvah project had to do with that. But being Josh Shapiro, he started a national campaign called Kids for Avi. And I'll skip a little bit of this to get to the climax. But he in short order finds himself in an office. 12 year old Josh Shapiro sitting across from Senator Arlington Inspector and Senator Joe Biden. That's not the end of the story. In fact, I think at this point I can pass it over to you. What happened next.
- [02:45]
Josh Shapiro
Thank you, Harry. First off, it is amazing to be here with all of you. I'm humbled by your presence and I would say given world events, it is a good thing that we are in a shul together. And so I want to thank you all for being here. When I was a young boy in the 80s. Harry.
- [03:12]
Harry Littman
How was the music, Governor? Just kidding.
- [03:16]
Josh Shapiro
My mother, who had been a Philadelphia public school teacher until I was born, and then she stayed home with me, my brother and my sister, my mom was just the greatest activist. Now, I'd be lying to you if I said as an eight year old boy, I knew what the heck an activist was. But my mom just always showed me that there was a bigger world around me and she cared about that world around her. And I remember when she came home and told me about a place called the Soviet Union where kids couldn't be free, particularly if they were Jewish. And I didn't even really fully understand what freedom was. And she would tell me, well, they can't play Little League and they can't go to a school like yours, and they can't go where they want to go when they want to go there. And I thought that was a bad thing. And my mom would come to our class and teach the other kids about this place called the Soviet Union and these refuseniks who were being held back, who weren't being given the freedoms that they so deserved. And we got the idea that I would start writing letters to this one boy named Avi Goldstein. And so I'd write letters, and then I got other young people to write letters to him and Harry. Every so often I'd get one back. You know, the Soviet government would intercept most of them. And then it was coming up on my bar mitzvah and I was, you know, twinning with him, that was the term that we used back then. And I said I wanted to meet him, I wanted him to come for my bar mitzvah. And my mom said, well, then, if we're going to do that, we've got to go and we got to enlist some help here. And she took me to Washington D.C. to the Capitol. And I met with these senators. I met with Arlen Specter, who was the senator from Pennsylvania. I met with.
- [05:00]
Harry Littman
Could happen to anyone.
- [05:02]
Josh Shapiro
I met with Joe Biden, who was like our third senator from Pennsylvania. He was from Delaware, used to be part of Pennsylvania, by the way. And I told them about this boy, Avi Goldstein, and how I wanted to meet him, I wanted to get him out. And they took us down the hall to a Senator Ted Kennedy, and we told them all about Avi Goldstein. And I wanted their help. And I left thinking, boy, those guys had fancy suits and that was a fancy place. And they're powerful. Maybe they can do something about it. Three days before my bar mitzvah, the US Government, thanks to those senators, secured the release of Avi Goldstein. And we stood on the bema in a shul like this in Elkins Park, Pennsylvania. And we had our bar mitzvah physically together, which was an extraordinary thing. I wish I could tell you that was like my aha moment where I thought I was going to devote myself to a life of politics. I'm sure you'll learn from our conversation that was not in the plans, but I did learn from my mom the importance of advocacy, the importance of seeing a broader world around you. And I'm convinced now, looking back, you can draw a straight line from that experience I had to the work I do today.
- [06:21]
Harry Littman
I think you can see why he's known as someone who. Forgive my language, but I'm quoting from the governor's team gets shit done. And by the way, there's a little item there which is Senator Kennedy winds up placing a call to Mikhail Gorbachev. So Kids for Avi somehow reaches into Moscow and in Elkins park and 1980 something. All right, I want to talk a little bit more about this topic of gsd. So very early in your governorship, I think this is how you first came to national renown. A major section of i95, anyone who's ever been out there, it's the major artery on the east coast collapsed in Philadelphia. And the experts all told the governor and his team, this is going to be months and months of disruption, expense and inconvenience. You had it reopened in 12 days. So what about your approach to government made it possible for you to get that particular shit done?
- [07:31]
Josh Shapiro
Look, I. I firmly believe that government can be a force for good in people's lives. I'm still a believer in that. I know it doesn't feel that way right now, but I really believe that. And I think a big part of governing is solving people's problems. And in my case, as an executive, I don't know if the mayor is still here. Is your great mayor, who, by the way, is about to be the mayor of all mayors as America's mayor as he takes over the conference of Mayors. We congratulate him for that. When you're in one of these roles and emergency strikes, you've got a responsibility to. To step up and fix it. I got a call from my chief of staff six or seven o' clock in the morning on a weekend morning, that a fuel tanker had gone under a bridge on I95, the roadway that connects, I mean literally Maine to Florida, but big artery between New York and D.C. through Philadelphia, 200,000 cars and trucks a day. My chief called me and said a fuel tanker exploded, the bridge collapsed. We got to do something about it. We immediately went out to the scene. I went up in a state police helicopter, saw that, like, literally, it had collapsed, it was gone. And while I'm up there, I'm looking at a big hole in the ground. And I thought to myself, well, we can't keep this closed for months and months and months. What if we just fill the hole with a bunch of dirt and pave over it, and I'll deal with whatever traffic was going to go on in the underpass later, when I shared that idea with all of the engineers, they looked at me like I was nuts, but they couldn't say to me that I was nuts. But they looked at me that way, and sure enough, I said to them, hey, listen, I gotta go brief the press. How long you think it's gonna take for you guys to come up with a plan on what we're gonna do here? They said, give us a week. I said, great. I'm gonna go talk to the press. It'll take 20 minutes. And when I come back, I need that plan. We don't have a week. And when I come back, one guy in the group starts talking about using aggregate in the hole and then asphalt. I'm like, wait a minute. So you want to fill the dirt? Fill the hole with dirt and then pave over it? That was my idea. I'm not even an engineer. Aggregate was a fancy word for recycled dirt. But we got that road reopened in 12 days because we relied on the strength and the skill of the Philadelphia building trades. We trusted them to do the work without having to constantly call back to headquarters for permission for everything. I did away with all the procurement and the red tape headaches that always slows government down. And we trusted the people to be innovative. We got to the final day of the 12 days, and they had to lay the asphalt. And it was about to rain, and you can't lay asphalt when it rains. Our secretary of transportation and I love nascar, and we remembered that there's this Zamboni like thing that rides over the nascar, you know, NASCAR track when it rains. To immediately drive the track, we called the NASCAR guys. We brought that thing down to Philly, we kept the ground dry, we paved it, and we got the road reopened. Innovative thinking. We need more of that in government. We need a mentality of. Of get stuff done. And by the way, that also helped us launch an initiative that took us from 48th in the country on permitting to now top two or three in the country on permit times. We're Getting projects done 2, 3, 4 years faster than any other state. A business license that took eight weeks the day I got sworn in takes one single day to get in Pennsylvania now. So we have that GSD mentality, not just on i95, but on all the work we do, moving quickly, getting stuff done. And I will tell you this. When you make things happen for people, when you solve their problem, when you make their streets safer, their kids school better, a job in their community more available, and they see government working for them, not only do they directly benefit, there is a byproduct that benefits our politics, and that is a little bit less cynicism. And when you have a little bit less cynicism, there's a little more hope, there's a little more. Less pessimism that gives us an opportunity to help heal this country. So I think for as nerdy as it sounds to get a road reopened in 12 days or to get a permit delivered more quickly, I do think it is a key part of giving people hope that government can work again.
- [12:08]
Harry Littman
I'd like to follow up with that because obviously all people use i95. So you're a governor in very hyper polarized times. You've mentioned it and you've had throughout your tenure, anywhere from 25 to 30% support from Trump voters in Pennsylvania. What do you think they are responding to?
- [12:31]
Josh Shapiro
Look, I feel blessed to be the governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And in my commonwealth, which is the swingiest of all swing states in the country, I feel blessed to have support of not just nearly all the Democrats, but a huge chunk of independents and even about a third of people who would consider themselves Republicans who support President Trump. I'm very mindful that we don't agree on every issue, probably most issues. But what I try to do is show up in their communities, treat them with respect, listen, understand what their challenges are, and actually provide services for them in a way that maybe lessens those challenges and makes their life a little bit better. I think too oftentimes our politics gets too tribal. If you vote for the other guy, I'm not coming to your community. If you don't like me on this issue, then I gotta fight you on the other issue. I'm also one of the only governors in the country. I think there's one other now. I used to be the only one with a divided legislature. I've got a state Senate led by Republicans by two seats and a state House led by Democrats by one seat. So for me to literally get any bill signed into law, I need Republican votes and Democratic votes. You can't shut people off just because you disagree with them on a bunch of issues. You gotta find ways to find common ground on the things that you can agree on. When I sit down with Republican leaders to negotiate something, I'll tell them, what are the 10 things you want? What are 10 things you're for? I'll tell you the 10 things I'm for. There's probably four, five, six we don't agree on. But if there's three or four or five, whatever that we agree on, I focus on that. Sadly, our politics today incentivizes yelling and screaming about the five things you don't agree on. You get more likes on social media for that. But what people sent me to do is a job where I can deliver for them and for me in Pennsylvania, the way you deliver is by finding ways to work together with other people. And that's the work I try and do every day. I think we need more of that in our politics.
- [14:37]
Harry Littman
And I want to. I want to follow up. Go ahead.
- [14:44]
Josh Shapiro
You went from refusenics to I95.
- [14:47]
Harry Littman
Yeah.
- [14:47]
Josh Shapiro
Where do you think I'm going to modern day politics? I have no idea where you're going there.
- [14:50]
Harry Littman
All right. Stick around.
- [14:51]
Josh Shapiro
All right.
- [14:54]
Harry Littman
It's a word that you just used, actually. Because it struck me that it came up again and again in the New York Times best selling book Where We Keep the Light.
- [15:03]
Josh Shapiro
I told Harry this, I worked hard on this book. I've never written a book before, had no idea what I was doing. Thank you all for taking the time to read it. But when I turned it in, my wife, who you'll read about in this book, some people think this book is a love story to her. I've known her since.
- [15:18]
Harry Littman
It's that I don't know, I've been
- [15:19]
Josh Shapiro
together since the ninth grade. But my wife looks at me. I mean, I was so proud of myself, I turned in this book. She goes, you think everybody's going to read that? So when it got on the New York Times bestseller list, I printed that out and I put that right in her face and I showed her. Somebody read that book. Sorry, Gary, I didn't mean that.
- [15:35]
Harry Littman
Not at all. So look, a word you just used, that really struck me again and again in the book. Listen. So in your. It just seems to be the kind of secret sauce, but I want to ask if it is. But from the 18,000 doors you knocked on where you first brightened bushy tailed, gave them positions until you realized they wanted to talk to you. Your dad, a well known Pediatrician in town said this to you back in Pittsburgh. Jeffrey Romoff, who even his best friends would say is a real SOB you spent a day just listening to. So that's my question. Is that your kind of, you know, secret sauce? And why don't other leading officials do it more?
- [16:25]
Josh Shapiro
I think listening is really, really important. And I'll come to a story in the book that Harry referenced. I decided in 2004 I was going to run, not the 1970s, but in 2004, that I wanted to run for state representative. And I. I was running in my community, where I grew up, that was overwhelmingly Republican. And so I was doing in the beginning what I thought a candidate was supposed to do, which was put on your one suit, go to an event and give a speech. And I'd go to these events, event after event after event. Everything was run by the Republicans. They never gave me a chance to speak. They never even recognized me. They didn't even say that I was there. And I got so beat up by it. I got so frustrated. I came home to my wife, best friend in the whole world, who kicks me in the butt every day and gets me focused. And I said to her, you know, I don't know what I'm doing here. I show up, they don't let me talk. She goes, we'll figure out a way to go talk to people differently. And you know what I did the next day? I got a clipboard with people's addresses, their names, and I put on a comfortable pair of shoes, which I still do to this day. And I went out and I started knocking on 18,000 doors in my community about the first hundred doors I would show up and I would tell the people at the door, Harry, Every position I had on every issue and how I was going to fix their world. And I could just tell all they wanted me to do was go away. And I got to roughly the hundredth door, and I give my whole speech. And the woman says to me, wait, isn't your father Dr. Steve, my kid's pediatrician? And I said, yeah. Oh, we love him. We'll vote for you. And then she went on to tell me all these things that were upsetting her in her community, things that she wanted fixed. And I left that door thinking, okay, I gotta lead with Dr. Steve. But also, I gotta stop talking and I gotta listen. And for the next whatever, 17,900 doors or so, I knocked on the door. Hey, I'm Josh Shapiro. I'm running to be your state representative. What's on your Mind, what can I do to help? And it was amazing what people would open up about Harry. I learned on those doors how to listen. And I learned, after I got elected, how to take what I listened and turn it into action. And then I learned the importance of after you turn into action, you solve the problem. You gotta tell people about it. You gotta make sure that people see. Back to our first conversation here. People see that you heard them, you did something about it, and you made their life better. I've carried that with me throughout my entire career, even as Attorney General, as you mentioned. Obviously, still to this day, show up in a community, look people in the eye, listen, and then go out and try and do. I think too oftentimes our politics just incentivizes screaming at people and talking at people and not listening enough. And so I've tried to pride myself throughout my career on listening. And when I listen, I do a lot more learning than I do when I'm talking.
- [19:33]
Harry Littman
Okay. There's a memorable passage in your book from your high school basketball days. I think by your own assessment, you're not necessarily the best shooter or rebounder, but you're what they call the general. You want the ball. And I wanted to ask you about a particular thing you wrote, which is you want to call the play. And I've always been willing to accept the miss. There's never not something to learn from a miss. So I want to ask you, what is a miss that you've learned from in your political career?
- [20:09]
Josh Shapiro
Harry's referencing my outstanding career as a basketball player.
- [20:14]
Harry Littman
I think it was 16 points in the championship game. I'm just saying it happened to be in there.
- [20:18]
Josh Shapiro
That was the one year our Jewish day school went to the championship. And we won, and we won.
- [20:24]
Harry Littman
It's like Hoosiers. The Jewish.
- [20:26]
Josh Shapiro
It was like Hoosiers.
- [20:27]
Harry Littman
Yeah, right.
- [20:30]
Josh Shapiro
Kind of.
- [20:31]
Harry Littman
So Hoosiers with key Pote.
- [20:35]
Josh Shapiro
I really. I loved that team. And I love that I was the guy on the court, brought the ball up, found the open person, made the shot when we needed to. But more than anything, I loved having the ball and making the decision. And I think from that moment on throughout my life, I've just always wanted to have the opportunity to take the shot and to be willing to miss when you take the shot. Be willing to go out there and maybe not succeed at first, but at least have control of your own destiny. I talk in this book, particularly actually in the end in the acknowledgment section, about the team that I'm blessed to govern with in Pennsylvania and how I think about us all the time as five people on the court playing a game of basketball and thinking and realizing that if one of us is doing a great job that day, let's say I'm having a good day, but the other four members of my team aren't. We're not going to win the game. Or if my staff's doing an amazing job, which they do every day, and I have an off day, we're also not going to win. And everybody's got to function at the highest level. I think a lot about how politics is a team sport. You can't do anything by yourself. You've got to figure out a way to work with others. And for me, it's about building a team, elevating them, and then knowing that at the end of the day, I got to have the ball in my hand to make that decision, to make the final shot. And I feel blessed to have the chance to be able to do that every day.
- [22:07]
Harry Littman
Any myths you wanted to mention?
- [22:13]
Josh Shapiro
I don't know. I mean, look, I think I'm not trying to be evasive. I think every day you make mistakes. Every day you see something where you're like, boy, I could have said that better. I could have done that better. I think for me, what I was trying to convey in there is just a desire to make the decision as opposed to looking for someone else to make that decision for. For you.
- [22:34]
Harry Littman
Fair enough. All right. I want to bore down a little bit on the. On the book. It begins with the arson attack on the Governor's residence, Passover, 2024. You didn't know at first. 2025, is that right?
- [22:49]
Josh Shapiro
One year ago.
- [22:50]
Harry Littman
Okay, so you did. And you didn't know at first that it was actually directed at you. You had to flee the governor's residence in the middle of the night. That's really when you read the sort of origin, the way you respond to it of the title here, Where We Keep the Light. So can you just describe to us how that harrowing experience actually turned around? And it is the inspiration for the title here.
- [23:24]
Josh Shapiro
I started writing this book in roughly December of 2024, and I set out to write a book that was focused on the goodness that I was seeing every day in the community, the light that people were shining, the way they were helping their neighbors, the way they were solving problems. And it just was lost, I think, in the sort of corrosive, cruel politics that we live with today, that our political leaders were not actually demonstrating the same kind of Light that the people I got the chance to interact with every day were shining. Halfway through writing this book, darkness came upon me and my family. We had had a beautiful community seder at the Governor's residence in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And like most Shapiro meals, it lasted way, long, way into the night. We didn't get upstairs to our living quarters till about midnight or so. And it was an extraordinary night and a wonderful moment to be here as the Governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, openly celebrating my faith in the Governor's residence, in the place that William Penn founded that would be established based on the promise of freedom of religion. He probably never imagined a Jewish governor following him, but. But he'd probably be proud of that. And I just went to bed feeling just so positive, just full of light. 40 minutes later or so, a bang on our door from the state police saying, governor, we got to get out. Get the kids, get the dogs, we got to get out. There's a fire. I'll never forget rushing out of the Governor's residence while firefighters were rushing in to put out this fire. We'd later learn that an arsonist had broken into our home, threw Molotov cocktails in the room where we had just had the Passover Seder, blew up a good chunk of the residence and was hunting me down in the Governor's residence with a metal hammer that he later told police he was going to use to try to kill me. He was convicted of attempted murder, aggravated arson. He's in jail for a really long time. It was a dark, dark moment for our family. Almost immediately coming out of that, we started to see extraordinary light. People praying for us who didn't share the same religion as us, People out trying to lift up our spirits and strengthen us. I'm a prayerful person. You'll read in the book about how much I pray. You'll read in the book about how I grew up going to synagogue, how religion is central in my life. But I never, ever, ever understood the power of prayer until others prayed for me in different religions. And that's where Laurie and I began to see the shared faith that runs through different religions. About four days after the attack, we wanted to do something for the firefighters who demonstrated great bravery. And so we decided to provide, like, cook a meal. We didn't do the cooking, but we had people help Robert Irvine, a great celebrity chef, cook a meal for all these firefighters. And Laura and the kids and I took time to meet every one of the firefighters, shake their hands, talk to them, thank them, understand where they were, that night, what they did to help keep us safe. At the end of all that, an elderly man walked over to me, over 80 years old. A guy named John Wortle, a Christian chaplain from the Penn Township Fire Department, registered Republican, came over to me and said, governor, I wanted to give you this. It is a letter signed by every member of our fire department. And on the back I wrote you a prayer that is meaningful to me from the book of Deuteronomy. I flipped it over, started to read it and began to cry. And I called Laurie over and she read it and began to cry. The prayer he wrote that was important to this Christian chaplain was a prayer that I know as the priestly blessing and a prayer that Laurie and I recite over our children nightly for their safety and for their comfort. Two different generations, two different political parties, two different religions, one shared faith. That experience showed me the power of people being able to find ways to come together and not focus on the differences, but to see that common faith. And I will tell you, I have taken that spirit with me every day since. It's allowed me to see people on a much deeper level. It's allowed me to blur the superficial differences that oftentimes define our politics and have a more connected relationship with people who are different than me. I'm grateful to this day for John Wortel's prayer. I have it framed and hung up in my office as a reminder of that shared faith and that shared humanity that my hope would be our country can find its way back to.
- [29:05]
Harry Littman
Hey everyone, Harry here. As you may know, I'm extremely picky about advertisers and sponsors and do very few ads. But I'm making an exception because I've been really impressed, impressed by Quince clothing. I am not what anyone would call a clothes horse, but I do really care about comfort and their clothes are super comfortable. I took the Traveler 5 pocket pants with me on a recent trip and I basically wore them every day. They were totally comfortable and my family said they looked good as well. Refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com talkingfeds for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com TalkingFeds Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com TalkingFeds One of the chapters in the book is devoted to an episode that must have really challenged and strained your faith. It was as Attorney General, the investigation of the Catholic Church. You inherited it coming into office If I'm not mistaken. But the magnitude when people learned about it stunned everyone. Several hundred abusing priests, over 1,000 victims, and the grand jury, I think in 2018, you got me nervous about dates now, but produced this really big report about it all. And the question was, what would happen to this report? And you fought very hard to make the report public. Why did you fight hard for it? What was your thinking?
- [30:59]
Josh Shapiro
When I took the oath of office as attorney general, one of the first things I did was try and learn what the grand jury had been working on prior to me becoming ag. And for those of you who aren't familiar, Harry's obviously a legal expert, but grand jury proceedings, I assume it's the same here in California, are absolutely secret. Only certain people who are sworn into the grand jury can know about it. And you are not allowed to talk about it with others. Like not even your wife, not even your spouse or anybody else. And so I learned that there was this early investigation into some abuse of some children at the hands of maybe a predator priest or two. I had no idea what it would turn into. But we put all of our resources into this investigation and ultimately, as Harry pointed out, it led to a real reckoning, not just in Pennsylvania, but it led to a global reckoning. We found over 300 predator priests who had abused thousands of children in, in Pennsylvania, those who were still alive. And within the statute of limitations, we put those priests in jail. But for those who we couldn't reach that way, we working with the grand jury, they wrote a report on all the abuses over decades in Pennsylvania. Throughout that process that was totally secretive. The lawyers for the Catholic Church were arguably the most powerful organization on the face of the earth, as well resourced as any. Those lawyers fought us to stop that report from coming out. While that was going on, the victims had no idea that the report was being stymied by the lawyers for the Catholic Church. Many victims thought that I had refused to go forward. Remember, these are victims who were let down by their church, let down by their local police, some of them let down by their parents. Every institution in these victims lives had failed them. And they thought that I had failed them as well. I walked around with just such extraordinary pain in my heart that I knew they felt that way, while at the same time, and Harry, you understand this, we were fighting tooth and nail under what's called under seal. So in secret in court to try and get this out, some of the grand jury witnesses had spoken to the media, which they are allowed to do, and referenced Something about a report, something about some kind of publication that was going to tell the story of what happened in Pennsylvania. And my wife heard about this, and I think she began to understand why I had been acting so strange, really, for the last year and a half, carrying this with me while also raising four children of my own, carrying this with me as a man of faith, seeing the Catholic religion is a beautiful religion, but seeing people abuse it, seeing priests quite literally hang crosses around certain young boys necks as a symbol not of their Catholicism, but that those were the ones that were permitted in their minds, to be raped and abused. I walked around with such pain. And my wife said to me as she began to learn more from the media about it, you should write a letter to the Pope and ask him to intervene. And I said, you know, Laura, people don't just write letters to the Pope. It's not how it works. And she said, I read about in the book, she says, but do you remember when you met the Pope in 2015, what happened? And I hadn't remembered till that moment. In 2015, the Pope came to Philadelphia for the World Meeting of Families. And I was one of the people who greeted him. I greeted him, I shook his hand. And then I followed him into the seminary in Pennsylvania, the seminary where he was staying. I wasn't supposed to follow him in, but I did. And he walked over to a crowd in the corner and had a quiet conversation with them. I couldn't hear all the words, but I learned that he was speaking to a group of sexual abuse survivors. I had forgotten that until that moment. And Laurie said to me, you should write him, because remember what he said. He promised victims that he would try to do right by them. Laurie says this to me. You'll see. There's a theme in this book of Laurie saying things to me and then walking away and forgetting about it. She goes to bed. I'm up all night and I start Googling on the computer. And I found transcripts of everything the Pope had ever done, including that meeting with survivors. I took the words of the Pope from his meeting with survivors and turned that into a letter from me, the Attorney General of Pennsylvania, and wrote this letter overnight to the Pope, came into my group of prosecutors next morning. Harry's a former prosecutor. Imagine what you'd say if I walked in and said, I got a plan on how we get this report out. We're going to write to the Pope. Imagine what they looked at me and said. I took this letter. We all agreed I'd send it. And then we had a problem. No one knew how to send a letter to the Pope. We managed to get it to the Vatican through the U.S. ambassador to the Vatican, who at the time was Calista Gingrich. I don't know if she helped, but her staff did. And we got the letter sent, we were told, to an aide. A few days later, maybe a week or so later, we get this call from this professor at St. Joe's University, who asked me to come over and talk to him. Why is this professor calling me? Why do I need to go? He said, it's very important. I go over to St. Joe's University in Philadelphia, and this professor tells me that he was the boyhood friend of the Pope. And your letter was received A few days later, we were able to successfully get the courts to have the report released. I don't know if the Pope got involved in that. I'm not sure what kind of intervention that there was. But I can tell you that that story elucidates a few things. Number one, how my wife has challenged me throughout our lives to see things differently. And number two, how when the ball's in my hand, I'm willing to try and take risk if it means taking what I've heard from people and turning it into some action that's going to benefit them. In this case, when that report came out, those survivors finally had the reckoning, the justice that they deserved. And I know that they still walk around with great pain, but hopefully they can feel some peace of mind knowing that their truth was finally shared, getting stuff done.
- [37:53]
Harry Littman
Not that they'll necessarily listen, but do you have any tips for the federal government as it wrestles with accountability over the Epstein files based on.
- [38:06]
Josh Shapiro
No. I mean, look, I think what you saw in the grand jury report in Pennsylvania is the exact same story, the Epstein files, which is the exact same story of so many of these situations where powerful people, oftentimes rich people or insider people, they get shielded from the law. They get shielded from real accountability. You have a President of the United States, I mean, not until his hand was forced. Forced, who was trying to shield all this wrongdoing. These survivors deserve justice. People should be prosecuted for what happened here. And you've got this dangerous situation where you got rich people, insiders, political people, who have spent years, it would seem, shielding this horrific network of abuse and pedophilia. It shouldn't be that way in the United States of America. Sadly, we don't have a Department of justice right now that will dig all the way into this and provide that accountability. Hopefully, hopefully, as time goes on here, we will once again have a justice system that holds people accountable. There will hopefully be some sunshine as a result of the release of these files. But that's only the first step. The second step has to be justice for those who committed crimes against these children.
- [39:36]
Harry Littman
All right. A chapter of the book is devoted to the horrific attack at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh. That's actually my boyhood synagogue where I was bar mitzvah. I didn't have such a great bar Mitzvah project, but nevertheless. And my, my mother in law is here. Her best friend was one of the victims. Two days ago, we experienced another attack in Michigan. It feels sometimes that it's just some sort of, you know, ineradicable virus that just crops up. And my question is, realistically, is there anything. And you know, I mean, the answer might be no, that, that any president or governor can do about these, you know, about antisemitism and these kinds of attacks?
- [40:25]
Josh Shapiro
I think every governor, every president, and by the way, you don't need to have an office. I think every American has a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity, to call. To do what my good friend Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan, did after the attack at the Michigan shul two days ago, three days ago, now two days ago. And she stood up and she spoke plainly and clearly and unequivocally about how we cannot allow this type of blatant anti Semitism in our country. In her case in Michigan. I think that's incredibly important. We have a president of the United States right now who can't call out and condemn violence unless it's violence that he thinks is targeting someone he cares about. I also think it is incumbent upon all of us, not just people in office and not just after a tragedy, to begin to address the seeds of antisemitism that are being planted every day. The things that are. Maybe a few years ago you'd be aghast at if you saw in the news or if you read on social media that now kind of gets a little bit of a pass. There was a couple stories in Michigan on the actual news saying that this person that drove the car into the shul, well, he was upset about something happening in the Middle East. Right? That was the news report. He was upset about something happening in the Middle East. Let's assume, by the way, for a moment that that's true. He was upset. So going and plowing your car into a shul that had a bunch of Jewish children in it that's the right response, that somehow those Jewish children are responsible for what's happening in Israel or the Middle East. That's the oldest anti Semitic trope. This notion of dual loyalty, this notion of Jews being responsible for. For what's happening in Israel. I must tell you that the fact that that got reported on the news, the fact that that kind of got a pass, that's part of the seed of antisemitism that we're seeing being planted all across our country, all across our media ecosystem, frankly, all across the globe. Each day. We have to find ways to call it out, to educate people who might not have a negative intention, but educate them on why that kind of rhetoric, those kinds of conclusions that they're reaching are dangerous. And we got a lot of work to do in this country. And I'm mindful that I've got a responsibility to do that work for those 11 souls that were killed at the deadliest act of anti Semitism in our nation's history at your shul in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But also for the people who don't feel comfortable to wear their star anymore as they walk around, the people who maybe don't want to admit in a room that they're Jewish, that breaks my heart. This is a country that's founded on the promise of freedom and liberty, promise of religious freedom, as Penn wanted in Pennsylvania. We need to find ways to get back to that. And it's going to require all of us to do this hard work. It is not a lost cause. It is not. I refuse to believe that. But it's going to require everybody to double down their efforts and to do this work. It's one of the reasons why I try and be very open and proud of who I am and my faith. And I don't want to sit here and suggest to you that I'm any type of special American Jewish person or better than any other Jewish person or anything like that. I got a lot of flaws and a lot of faults, and I'm by no means the most practicing of, I'm sure, many people in this room. But I take pride in who I am. I take pride in my faith. And I think now more than ever, we have to live openly and proudly. And that is the antidote to the kind of hate that we are seeing out there right now.
- [44:35]
Harry Littman
We're beginning to get near the end, and I do want to cover some current issues, starting with the war. So it seems to many, including me, that the administration went to war without preparing the American people, possibly without even an idea they floated six or seven different ones about what we're doing there, what an end game is. I just want to ask you, do you agree with the decision to go to war, and now that we are in it, what do you think the end game should look like?
- [45:09]
Josh Shapiro
I don't agree with the decision, but let me explain very specifically why, if you're the commander in chief of the United States and you want to put lives at risk, you want to put our service members lives at risk, you owe it to them to explain what the mission is. If you're the President. If you're the President of the United States, you owe it to the American people to explain why you are going to engage in a war of choice at that particular moment. The President of the United States has failed that basic test. He hasn't even looked the American people in the eye in a direct address, a direct speech, something like that, and said, what is our reason for going? Think about it. First it was to get rid of the nuclear weapons. The nuclear weapons and the nuclear capacity for weapons that he allegedly had destroyed seven months earlier. Then it was, we're going into Iran for regime change. Well, how'd that go? They killed the father, now the son's in charge. Then it was, well, we didn't need to go. There was no imminent threat, but Netanyahu was going to provoke it. And so we had to go to Falo Netanyahu to protect America's interests. And then after Rubio said that, they all quickly walked that back. You see the point I'm trying to make here? He's been all over the place. And why is that dangerous? It's dangerous for service members, including 13 who had to come home to their families through Dover. 13 who? You have to wonder whether or not their families know why their loved one perished. If you don't know why you went in, you also don't know how the hell to get out. You don't know when the mission has actually been accomplished. Right now, I think we are at a dangerous moment in this war where this thing could be prolonged for quite a long period of time, where the President could quickly pull out, leaving potentially a far more dangerous and unstable situation in the Middle East. Now, no one here should shed a tear for the Ayatollah Iran. The Iranian government for 50 years have been shouting death to America, the largest exporter of terrorism around the globe. These were not good people. The leaders of Iran and those who are still alive leading Iran, they are not good people. They are not the allies of the United States. But we have got to make sure that if we are going to commit our military troops, it is in a clear way for a clear purpose, and the president failed to do that. The last thing I want to say on this, that I know no one's really focused on, but I think it's very, very important for us to spend a minute on this. The world, especially our two biggest enemies, Putin and Xi, have seen the weakness of this president, have seen the vulnerabilities now of the United States because of the way Trump has engaged in this war. Think about it. Putin's making money off this right now,
- [48:36]
Harry Littman
a lot of money.
- [48:36]
Josh Shapiro
And Ukraine has far fewer defense systems because of what's happening in the Middle East. You don't think Xi is watching this? Thinking, now I've got my plan on how to move on Taiwan, and can the United States actually rally a global force to stop us? Will they stop us? Do they have the means and the mechanisms to stop us? So I think our two biggest enemies out there are watching this, learning from it, and all of that makes America less safe. I look at all of this through the prism of what's in America's national security interest. And I firmly believe that the president and his actions and the way he's gone about it has not made us safer and has created more chaos around the globe. That's what I think.
- [49:26]
Harry Littman
A more personal question. So after your crushing defeat in running for high school government, you've reeled off 12 straight victories.
- [49:35]
Josh Shapiro
12 and one, if you can. Yeah.
- [49:38]
Harry Littman
Since then, and inevitably, it's Governor, you, you know, in the state, that's resulted in some bruised feelings. You've even had to be up against previous kinds of mentors and the like. There are in your profiles, people say, oh, Governor Shapiro, he is overly ambitious. What's your response?
- [50:01]
Josh Shapiro
First off, I'll answer, but I've got to just Clarify. It was 11th grade. I was trying to impress a girl. I don't know why I thought this would be a good thing. I ran for student body president. I got killed. I finished third of three. I named the two people who finished ahead of me. They've since reached out to me because they've gotten over that. They've moved on. I clearly have not. But I've won every race since, so that's good. Look, I get in this business that when you're passionate about service, when you want to be in the arena, sometimes some feelings get hurt. I was really open about that. In this book I wrote about people who, along the way I know maybe felt frustrated by something I did or didn't like, the course I took when they thought I should do something different. I just try in every step of my career, every day I act to act with integrity, to be mindful that there are people on the outside that are going to throw bombs at you. They're going to want to say things off the record, that they'd never have the nerve to look you in the eye and actually say, and I don't feel good about it, but I sort of live with it, and I'm mindful of it. And I'm determined every day to serve others and to serve others with integrity the best way I can. And I think if you look at my entire career, that's been the through line throughout. Serve others, do it with integrity and do it with kindness. And that's what I've tried to do.
- [51:34]
Harry Littman
And that leads naturally to one of my last questions. You're focused right now on winning reelection as governor. You're also the general who always wants the ball in his hands and gets shit done. If you were making the case for why your abilities and experience make you a good person to have the ball in his hands in 2028 in the presidential election, what would you say?
- [52:03]
Josh Shapiro
Are we out of time or now? Look, yeah, I do want the ball in my hand, but I'm also mindful that right now our country's really reeling. We're dealing with the chaos and the cruelty and the corruption of Donald Trump every day. And what we need to do, I believe, is to focus in November on finally bringing a check to Donald Trump's chaos, corruption and cruelty. And I think the way we do that is. I think the way we do that is to not just show up and vote in record numbers in a swing state like mine, but to vote in record numbers in what I believe needs to be a national referendum on Donald Trump in every single state in the entire country. You live in a state that's not a swing state, but imagine what happens if in the midterms, instead of having a statewide turnout of 55, 60%, you've got a statewide turnout of 85 or 90%. You might flip a few congressional seats that you might not have otherwise held, but you're also going to send a clear message that the American people are fed up with what they are seeing. And I firmly believe that it is a disservice to this country. And if anyone, myself included, is looking past these midterms, is engaging in conversation about 2028 or beyond, there will be time for that. But what we all need to be focused on right now is providing a check to Donald Trump and showing up in record numbers in these midterms. I intend to do that work in Pennsylvania, God willing, get myself reelected and help elect Democrats up and down the ballot and bring that check in our system that we so desperately need. I'm Michael Waldman, host of the Briefing Podcast. I'm a former White House speechwriter, a lawyer, and a constitutional scholar. And I'm president of the Brennan center for Justice. We work to repair and strengthen American democracy, from gerrymandering to abuse of presidential power, from Supreme Court reform to congressional corruption and more. What fun. You're going to hear new ideas in this podcast, and you're going to hear about the strategies and the legal and political fights that will shape the next phase of American politics. If you care about our democracy, the Briefing is a podcast for you.
- [54:40]
Harry Littman
Are you up for a lightning round?
- [54:42]
Josh Shapiro
I like that.
- [54:43]
Harry Littman
Okay, here you go. Oh, this is the talking lightning round. You ready?
- [54:50]
Josh Shapiro
Am I gonna be all right?
- [54:51]
Harry Littman
I will see.
- [54:52]
Josh Shapiro
All right.
- [54:52]
Harry Littman
All right. Ten questions. First concert you attended.
- [54:59]
Josh Shapiro
James Taylor on the Lawn. JT fans at the Man Music center with my high school girlfriend, who I've been married to for 29 years.
- [55:10]
Harry Littman
Good. Start a novel. You love novel.
- [55:14]
Josh Shapiro
I love. Oh, my gosh, there's a bunch. I don't know. I'm reading so many different things all the time. Pass. Go to the next. Okay, okay.
- [55:25]
Harry Littman
I think passing is okay. All right. High school free throw percentage.
- [55:31]
Josh Shapiro
Oh, I shot in the 90s in high school. Look, I figured if I got foul going down the lane, I was going to earn those buckets. Yep, yep.
- [55:39]
Harry Littman
Current free throw percentage?
- [55:41]
Josh Shapiro
Not 90%, but better than my kids. I can still shoot free throws better than my kids.
- [55:47]
Harry Littman
A Republican governor.
- [55:49]
Josh Shapiro
You admire Spencer Cox of Utah. He's a good friend and someone I admire greatly.
- [55:55]
Harry Littman
Something good about Washington, D.C.
- [56:00]
Josh Shapiro
it is a beautiful city, particularly during the cherry blossoms. Does that count?
- [56:07]
Harry Littman
Yeah, it does. And we have cherry blossoms in San Diego. The mayor was telling me, dream date night with Lori,
- [56:14]
Josh Shapiro
sweatpants, couch, takeout, and no one bothering us at home.
- [56:22]
Harry Littman
Michael or LeBron?
- [56:23]
Josh Shapiro
Oh, Jordan. No question. And by the way, stop this for a minute, okay? Because I want to get into this for a minute here. Jeff Gross knows this. My kids love LeBron. They think he's the goat. They're wrong. Michael Jordan was the goat. He wanted to kill you every time he was on the floor, and he did. He had the greatest winning spirit of anyone. I've ever watched Michael Jordan, not Lebron. And I'm gonna tell my kids you asked that, and that's what I said. Okay, There you go. Keep going.
- [56:55]
Harry Littman
A song you're likely to sing in the shower.
- [57:02]
Josh Shapiro
Things I Take for Granted by Larry Fleet. I'm a country music fan. I listen to that song over and over and over again, and it reminds me of the blessings that I have in my life and the things I should never, ever, ever take for granted.
- [57:18]
Harry Littman
You're hard to keep in touch. All right.
- [57:20]
Josh Shapiro
Sorry.
- [57:21]
Harry Littman
That's all right. Favorite Southern California city near the Mexican border,
- [57:27]
Josh Shapiro
San Diego.
- [57:27]
Harry Littman
There you go. Yeah. I have just one. One more question. So there's a great account of your junior year trip. You were at a Jewish day school. You all went to Israel. And a lot of people in their first trip in Israel or anytime they see the Western Wall and they put a little note that's supposed to be some kind of, you know, communication with God, and you put a little note in there. You don't remember today what it said. My question is, if you were going there today and you were going to put a note in the Western Wall, what would it say?
- [58:04]
Josh Shapiro
The lightning round's over, right?
- [58:06]
Harry Littman
Yeah, that's right. All the time. You want.
- [58:12]
Josh Shapiro
I think I would write a note of thanks to God for the health and safety of my family, and I would ask God for continued health and safety and for the power of clarity. I think oftentimes in the world that I live in, there's a lot of noise. There's a lot of things moving fast. There's a lot of things that are designed to distract you. And every day I try and focus and have clarity. And if I have that, it allows me to listen and do. And that, to me, I think, is a power that I would hope God would grant me so that I could continue to do this work.
- [59:00]
Harry Littman
Please join me in thanking Governor Josh Shapiro.
- [59:03]
Josh Shapiro
Thank you, everybody.
- [59:07]
Harry Littman
Thank you for tuning in to One on One, a weekly conversation series from Talking Feds. If you like what you've heard, please tell a friend to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever they get their podcasts. And please take a moment to rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to us on YouTube where we are posting full episodes and daily updates on top legal stories. Check us out on substack harrylittman.substack.com where we're posting two or three bulletins a week breaking down the various threats to constitutional norms and the rule of law. And Talking Feds has joined forces with the Contrarian I'm a founding contributor to this new media venture, committed to reviving the diversity of opinion that feels increasingly rare in today's news landscape, where legacy media seems to be tacking toward Trump for business reasons rather than editorial ones. Rest assured, we're still the same scrappy independent podcast you've come to know and trust just now linked up with an ambitious and vital project designed for this pivotal moment in our nation's legal and political discourse. Find out more@contrarian.substack.com thanks for tuning in, and don't worry, as long as you need answers, the Feds will keep Talking Talking Feds is produced by Luke Cruz Cregan and Katie Upshaw, associate producer Becca Haveian sound Engineering by Matt McArdle, Rosie Don Griffin, David Lieberman, Hansam Mahadranathan, Emma Maynard and Hallie Necker are our contributing writers and production assistants. By Akshaj Turbailu Our music, as ever, is by the amazing Philip Glass. Talking Feds is a production of Delito llc. I'm Harry Littman. Talk to you later.