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- [00:00]
A
Hey, folks, Harry here. You're about to hear a great conversation I taped last week with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. But first, I've got some exciting news. You'll hear me tease this at the end of our talk, but Governor Shapiro is going to be coming to San Diego in March for a book event with Talking San Diego. If you're in the San Diego or La Jolla area, be sure not to miss it. There are details at the link in the show notes. Welcome to Talking FEDS One on One. Deep dive discussions with national figures about the most fascinating and consequential issues defining our culture and shaping our lives. I'm your host, Harry Littman. Welcome to another Talking FEDS One on One. I'm thrilled to welcome one of the highest profile governors in the country from my home state of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro. In his first term in office, Governor Shapiro has earned a reputation as a guy who gets stuff done. That's the PG version. Starting with the quick repair job on i95, he's posted a 60% approval rating, including 30% of Trump voters in the tightly divided battleground state of Pennsylvania. And I can attest from personal observation, as 159-Jewish-basketball lover to another, he definitely can sink the 20 foot jumper. Governor Josh Shafiros, thanks so much for joining us.
- [01:45]
B
It's great to be with you. Are we going to talk hoops or do we have to talk the law?
- [01:48]
A
Both. Both. I gave Gavin a an article from my subsect Today, the Connie Hawkins story that if you have a second, I think you'll really enjoy that.
- [01:58]
B
Didn't.
- [01:58]
A
Evan, you're there. That's exactly right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, we can start now. I guess we'll have to put basketball for the second time, which I hope it'll be. But I do think our listeners, they're going to really want to hear your thoughts about how to parry some of the aggressive encroachments on state power from the Trump administration. But I wanted to ask you first about a few local Pennsylvania issues. We're talking Friday, February 13th. You gave your state budget address 10 days ago, laid out a full agenda. I wish we could talk about all of it, but there's a couple questions I wanted to zero in on. Let's start with energy costs. So bruisingly cold winter in the Northeast, people are likely to have some real sticker shock when they look at their heating bills. Of course, it's a common talking point. Let's bring energy costs down. But a pretty tricky problem with both legal and of course, as everyone, I think, knows, you're the former state attorney general, and legislative aspects. How do you get. Shit. Excuse me, Stuff done on this really obstinate issue.
- [03:09]
B
Yeah. So let. Let's sort of take a step back and start with the bill that you get in, you know, in your mailbox or.
- [03:16]
A
Yeah.
- [03:16]
B
Or whenever you get your bill. And that bill, in part, it's actually a small part, reflects how much energy you actually use in your home. And I think everybody kind of understands, of course, more use, the more you're going to pay. But then a huge chunk of your bill are rates that are set by the utilities and by the grid operator, if you will, in terms of the infrastructure needed to drive out the power. Why do I explain that? Because 13 states around Pennsylvania banded together years and years and years ago around something called pjm, which is the grid operator, and they have a massive impact on what your bill looks like when you get it. And unfortunately, I think PJM has been reckless and irresponsible with setting those rates. And so about a year ago, Harry, I sued them to try and cap the amount that they could charge consumers. And we won, and we got the cap in place. But then the important thing was to keep that cap in place so they couldn't then go spike everybody's utility rates starting this year, like mid-2026. So I organized all 13 PJM governors, by the way, Democrats and Republicans, and even worked with the White House to get them on board. We held PJM's feet to the fire, and less than 24 hours ago, they agreed to extend our cap for two more years. And so, in effect, that creates stability for ratepayers. For a Pennsylvania average homeowner, over the next four years, you're going to save 600 bucks or more. That's real savings. And they were prepared to spike it a significant amount more than that. So I hate to kind of nerd out on you here, but it's really.
- [05:02]
A
No, no, please do. This is a nerdy podcast. Yeah.
- [05:06]
B
But it's important for folks to understand that this sort of pjm, this like, group that brings the states together and sets the rates, they've been going crazy raising rates recently, and we finally held them accountable. And that's going to work to the benefit of Pennsylvania homeowners, small businesses, and others.
- [05:23]
A
Got it. And I do want to say, you know, this is your legal chops. You also had been involved with them as a state attorney general, but also obviously negotiating, collaborating shots with Republican and Democratic governors. Okay. A ton of other Stuff here, Governor, but I just want to zero in on this. Last week, a big issue in Pennsylvania all the way around the country, but definitely California, a very ambitious housing plan. And, you know, you think you have a good fix. As you said, if we execute on it, Pennsylvania will go from the bottom of the pack to being a national leader when it comes to housing construction, which is the sort of sticking point all over the country. Yeah. What's the plan? Why is the issue been so perennially difficult, not just in Pennsylvania? And what will it take to get stuff done here?
- [06:19]
B
Yeah, I mean, look, this is an issue we're seeing all across the country. It's. It's a real challenge for us in Pennsylvania, where, get this, Harry, and you know, from growing up here, 50% of all of our housing in Pennsylvania was built before 1950. Think about that, right? So we've got an aging infrastructure. We also don't have enough homes. If we don't start with my ambitious plan right away by the year 2035, so nine years from now, we'll be short 185,000 housing units. And housing just cost too damn much, whether you're trying to buy something or rent something. So here's what I put forth. A $1 billion fund to construct more housing. Because part of this is just simple supply and demand, right? We don't have enough supply. We got a high amount of demand. We've got to increase our supply $1 billion to build more affordable housing across Pennsylvania. That's a big deal. And then second, some really aggressive reforms to hold private equity and others accountable who are fleecing Pennsylvanians. So like, for example, in a manufactured home community, right, Some might refer to them as a trailer park community. That is not, I think, how I see them. But someone might commonly refer to it or think about it that way. These manufactured home communities, the individual person owns that home, right? Owns that manufactured home, but the land that it sits on, they're effectively leasing from someone. Private equities come in and bought up a ton of that land and tripling the lease amounts so you can own your home, but you're getting screwed because of the land that it sits on. And we've got nearly 100,000 Pennsylvanians who live in these manufactured home communities who are getting screwed by private equity. We're going to reform that. We're going to fix that. We've got to do other things to protect tenants in our commonwealth. I think for too long, the kind of landlords have held all the cards. We've got to shift that back toward the tenants. So I shared just those as two examples with you. We're going to both do reforms that help reduce costs and ease the burden on homeowners and renters, and we're going to invest $1 billion in building new housing all across Pennsylvania.
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A
Got it. And when you mentioned the old housing stock, I remember, you know, Allegheny county, people didn't realize it's a really. It's coming down, but it was pretty old. County people have been there forever. You see these houses, 40s and 50s in the different neighborhoods. Okay, so let's move to more of the national landscape. You've spoken about this already in just these couple minutes, Governor, but you've got a pretty strong record of outreach to Pennsylvania Republicans. And I think more generally, you know, you've talked about how you understand what you call the. This is. These are your words. Righteous indignation that powered Trump's reelection. Not to. Not to say you support how he's harnessed it, but I wonder how that shapes the way you govern and whether you think it's translated to any sort of advantages for the citizens of the commonwealth in terms of how you take that vantage point and deal with both the administration, but also Trump and MAGA voters back back home.
- [09:38]
B
You know, Harry, when I was starting out in. In trying to be an elected office back in 2004. Right. I'm dating myself here, I ran for state representative in a district that was overwhelmingly Republican. And I learned in that race how to listen, how to accept people's frustrations and turn that into action. Let me explain. My district, overwhelmingly Republican. No one gave me a shot. And I went out and I knocked on 18,000 doors of my neighbors, and I said, hey, I'm Josh Shapiro, running to be your state representative. What's on your mind? And inevitably, folks would express frustration about something happening in their world. And then this sort of sub frustration that they would share is that they felt like nobody was listening, nobody was solving their problems. And so starting out, I knew that this job, in that case, state representative, and to this day as governor, was all about hearing their concerns, absorbing their frustrations, and turning it into real actions to address whatever it was that they needed. And I've taken that approach ever since. Show up in a community, by the way, even if they're not registered like you, or, you know, have the same choice as you for president, but listen to them with respect and then show the results of our work. That's the get shit done mentality that I have and that I deploy every day in Rural, urban and suburban communities. And so when you talk about, you know, the. The support I have across party lines, I think in. In many ways it's not because we agree on everything. Of course, we have serious disagreements on policy. But folks here in Pennsylvania know I'm willing to show up and listen and treat them with respect and then act for them and deliver real results.
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A
You know, a lot of the profiles of you actually feature the way that your faith. You're pretty open about your. Your faith, not necessarily observance, but how it's affected your sort of, if I can use the word spiritual approach, but that. The way you've been able to make connections with people of other faiths, but just by making the. The, you know, actual bridge from the. The notion of faith. That's a whole nother conversation. I want to go the harder edge stuff. Shit, I'll stick with shit. Now that you've broached it, Pennsylvania hasn't yet come under such visible attack as, say, Illinois or Minnesota. Big news from just this week is the administration is backing down from the surge and invasion in Minnesota. We'll have to see if that sticks. Let's start here. What. I mean, what a brutal time. And your colleague in Minnesota, Governor Tim Walls, actually filed papers saying this is a federal invasion. What lessons have you? So on the one hand, they're out on the other, man, oh, man, what a. What a bill they leave as a exiting occupying army. What lessons have. Do you take from what went down in Minnesota in the event as it. I'm sure you're thinking about, the administration comes to Philadelphia next, which seems a lot of reasons it might be, you know, on their list.
- [12:56]
B
Let's just be very clear that the mission in Minnesota was a compromise mission. It was a failed mission. It was a mission that undermined people's constitutional rights. Yeah, the. The federal mission. Yes, of course it undermined people's constitutional rights, and it resulted in the death of Ms. Good and Mr. Preddy. And it is a mission that should have been terminated months ago. It should have never started. And so, you know, my heart aches for the Preddy family, the Good family, and, and all the families in the Minneapolis area whose lives were turned upside down, whose rights were violated because of this unlawful action by the federal government. I will tell you to get to the heart of your question. For months, my team and I have been preparing should something like that happen in our commonwealth. You mentioned Philly. Whether it's Philly or Pittsburgh or Reading or Hazelton or anywhere, we are prepared and I'm not suggesting that it's going to happen in one of those communities. I'm just making the point that we are prepared should that happen. We certainly have some benefit of hindsight here. What's the phrase? Hindsight is 20 20, given what the federal government did in LA and in Chicago, as you mentioned, of course, in Minneapolis, in Oregon and elsewhere. And so we've been able to see what transpired. We've been able to see how judges have ruled on that. And so I think we have a plan in place both in terms of what we need to do in the community, what we need to do with law enforcement, and what we need to do in the courts should the federal government decide to attack Pennsylvania and do, you know, hear what they, or attempt to do here, what they've done elsewhere? You know, Harry, I'm happy to answer all your questions here today. I'm going to be a little bit careful in the details I share relative to our preparedness, as I'm sure you can understand. But, you know, I think the people of Pennsylvania need to know that myself, many of our local leaders who I coordinate with law enforcement at every level, we are prepared.
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A
You know, I 100% do understand. But what does it say about the state of our country that you need to kind of keep confidential your dealings with the federal government that there's no way around it really were on, on the ground to the top antagonist to the people of Minneapolis.
- [15:32]
B
Go ahead. Yeah, please put an exclamation point on what you just said, because I, I think what you said is really important that we not lose sight of and, and that we not normalize what's happening right now. Understand that a governor, a, A mayor, an executive, a, A president, they spend time, we spend time preparing for the kind of emergency that typically come to a community. An awful weather event that claims lives, God forbid, a shooting in our communities, emergencies like that. The idea that in addition to preparing for those emergencies, we are now having to prepare for a federal invasion, an invasion that would undermine people's constitutional rights and the safety we have worked so hard to build up in our communities. We've worked our asses off to create trust between law enforcement and the community. And as a result, violent Crime is down 12%. Fatal gun violence is down 42%, largely because of the trust we've built. And so we're now having to prepare for that trust to be eviscerated by the federal government coming in. Just like take a moment and stop and think about that. That should shock the conscience of every common sense thinker in this country.
- [16:50]
A
It's so stunning. You know, week in, week out, you, I try to analyze things. Then you take a step back and say, what the hell is going on? As U.S. attorney, I'm sure you did this. As attorney general, you have these tabletop exercises of big events, like, for example, somebody comes in from Al Qaeda and wants to do this sort of attack. And literally you hypothesize and you work them out and see what you learn and where you screw up. I'm just thinking of the script for such exercises involving now. Washington comes and does this, now Stephen Miller does that. It really is a stunning kind of time to be a governor. Let me ask you about one more aspect of this that would not, I think, asking you to sort of play an open hand. But the little we've learned about these detention centers, they are really brutal and foul. And there's a warehouse site in Berks county that I ice just bought. What do you. Are you doing anything concretely? Can you do anything concretely to keep it from being the next mega detention center that, I mean, you mentioned the two people who were killed. We've had others who were just died in these centers or have been forgotten in them. What do you, what do you do to stave off this particular threat in Berks County?
- [18:11]
B
It is so tragic. And allow me to take just kind of a half step back and then answer your question going forward. The federal government purchased property in both Berks county and Schuylkill county and Pennsylvania. They did not give us, or by the way, any local officials advance notice of it. And they purchased this property and now claim that they want to put a detention center. I believe they're calling it some kind of a super detention center in Pennsylvania. No one is for this. And by the way, not to be partisan about, but those communities are represented by Republican leaders who have spoken out against this. While we didn't get advance notice, I have been very clear with the people of Pennsylvania. I'll do everything in my power to try and stop it. We do not want these here. Less than 24 hours ago, members of my cabinet and I sent a very, very detailed letter to Secretary Noem and her team explaining why we believe a detention center would not comport with the laws of our commonwealth, would not be able to be constructed in that place where they purchased. And so I expect you're. You can expect that you're going to see us going back and forth with the federal government to try and aggressively stop this from happening. I've got a lot of success when I take on the federal government. And in this case, we're going to stand up and protect Pennsylvania's interests and do everything in our power to stop them from constructing the detention center here in our commonwealth.
- [19:45]
A
Okay. And it strikes me again, Governor, that that involves a combination of political chops working across the, you know, the aisle, and also just legal, you know, hammers. Okay, well, chops and hammers. I think that's probably the wrong metaphor, but you know what I mean.
- [20:02]
B
Yeah. To that point, you've got to be able to advance the argument. That works. So let me just give you one example of what we laid out to Secretary Noem. The facility they bought kind of think about like one of those big box distribution centers, Right. Where you got a lot of trucks coming in and out to take packages wherever they need to go. Right. So if you can sort of envision that these are facilities that typically have a lot of parcels and packages in it, but not a ton of people. Right. If you load up that facility with the 7,500 or so detainees that they want there, combined with the thousands of staff that would have to work there. Right. Logic would dictate you would need that the water that they would consume in that facility would drain the entire reservoir for the entire area within 24 hours, leaving homeowners and businesses and others with literally no functioning water system. So that is, Harry, probably the least sexy, least interesting argument that people who are pissed about ICE want to hear. But understand. We are looking at every angle of this to explain why this should not be here, doesn't belong here, and won't work here. And we're going to make sure we do everything to push back on it. That is, you know, sort of the creative approach we are taking to look at this from every different angle. So I'm sure there's people scratching their heads going, why is the governor talking about flushing toilets? But the reality is, if you put this here, you're not only violating people's rights with this detention center, you're making it so the folks living really close by won't have running water. That's a real problem.
- [21:44]
A
Yeah, no, look, I think they're saying he's got command of actual details. So much more to talk about them. But the main thing that's always been on my mind, it looks like in the last. In the couple weeks, and maybe this is sort of the next step after the drawing down of some of the invasions, but it really looks like the federal government is bidding fair to get hold of voter data and really begin to look ahead to elections. And you saw, you may have been surprised with your law enforcement experience, the warrant that issued in Fulton county, just briefly and in broad strokes, Governor, what are you thinking about doing to protect the voting rights of Pennsylvanians?
- [22:28]
B
So, first, you should know, a couple months ago, the President of the United States, through his Department of Justice, demanded. Harry. That I turn over all of the private personal information of voters in Pennsylvania. Think Social Security numbers, driver's license numbers, things like that. Right.
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A
And it was. This is interesting to me. It was styled as a demand because they're doing it different ways in different places.
- [22:53]
B
Yeah, it was a demand. And, you know, in our state, you're Talking about over 9 million people's private information. And, Harry, understand I am legally bound. And my Secretary of State, Al Schmidt, who I think is the best in the country, no disrespect to anyone else. We are legally bound to protect that information. Right. They demanded we turned it over. I don't think they would use it for good purposes. I think they would only use it for nefarious purposes. And in the process, then they sued us, trying to compel us to give that information over. There is no way I'm trusting Donald Trump with your private personal information, because if past his prologue, the Trump administration will use it for bad reasons. Remember back in 2020, you and I spoke. I was the Attorney General of Pennsylvania. Trump and his allies sued me 43 different times to try and overturn the will of the people to try and overturn the election. The good news is he went on 43, I went 43, and, oh, and we had a free and fair, safe and secure election. I believe the Trump administration wants this information because they want to undermine our elections again, and they want to use it as a way to help nationalize our elections. We will not stand for that. I'm Michael Waldman, host of the Briefing Podcast. I'm a former White House speechwriter, a lawyer, and a constitutional scholar. And I'm president of the Brennan center for Justice. We work to repair and strengthen American democracy, from gerrymandering to abuse of presidential power, from Supreme Court reform to congressional corruption and more. What fun. You're going to hear new ideas in this podcast, and you're going to hear about the strategies and the legal and political fights that will shape the next phase of American politics. If you care about our democracy, the Briefing is a podcast for you.
- [24:50]
A
We're just about out of time. I hope we can talk again. But I did want to mention, look, you've just written a book about your life and career which is an interesting and not necessarily predictable story, and you're going on the road with it, including, I hope, to San Diego. I just wanted to ask you, what broader message do you think Americans, all Americans, need to hear right now?
- [25:19]
B
I wrote this book about the light that I receive, that I see, that I feel from the people I get to interact with every day in their communities in Pennsylvania, the people who are doing good. And I wanted to highlight them because the media and I, I mean, this is no disrespect to you at all. The media and our and our social media typically just pumps out darkness and division. And I was seeing something really quite different that I wanted to speak to and speak to how my family and my faith raised me to serve and to find the light. In the middle of writing this book, roughly four or five months in, my family and I were confronted by extraordinary darkness when someone broke into the governor's residence and tried to kill me and tried to burn my family while we slept, burn the home down where we were at the governor's residence. That person is now behind bars for 50 years. And that brought great darkness to our family. But within moments of experiencing that, we again saw a tremendous amount of light. People from different religions praying for us, people there to lift up my family and have our backs, folks looking out for our commonwealth. Because in many ways this was an attack on our commonwealth, not just on me and my family. And I once again was confronted with this light, with this goodness. And so the book is really a story about how my family and my faith have called me to serve and the individuals that I've met along the way, from knocking on those doors to the cases I led as Attorney General to the experiences I have to this day of these people who helped me find light. I think there's a lot of goodness in the world and I hope this book helps people see that and appreciate it.
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A
Governor Josh Shapiro, thanks so much for your time. Hope to see you again on Talking Feds.
- [27:14]
B
Great to be with you.
- [27:18]
A
Thank you for tuning in to One on One, a weekly conversation series from Talking Feds. If you like what you've heard, please tell a friend to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever they get their podcasts. And please take a moment to rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to us on YouTube where we are posting full episodes and daily updates on Top Legal Stories. Check us out on substack harry littman.substack.com where we're posting two or three bulletins a week breaking down the various threats to constitutional norms and the rule of law. And Talking Fez has joined forces with the Contrarian. I'm a founding contributor to this new media venture, committed to reviving the diversity of opinion that feels increasingly rare in today's news landscape, where legacy media seems to be tacking toward Trump for business reasons rather than editorial ones. Rest assured, we're still the same scrappy independent podcast you've come to know and trust just now linked up with an ambitious and vital project designed for this pivotal moment in our nation's legal and political discourse. Find out more@Contrarian.com substack.com thanks for tuning in. And don't worry, as long as you need answers, the Feds will keep talking. Talking Feds is produced by Luke Cregan and Katie Upshaw, associate producer Becca Haveian, sound Engineering by Matt McArdle, Rosie Dawn Griffin, David Lieberman, Hansum Mahadrenathan, Emma Maynard and Hallie Necker are our contributing writers and production assistants by Akshaj Turbailu. Our music, as ever, is by the Amazing Philip Glass. Talking Feds is a production of Doledo llc. I'm Harry Littman. Talk to you later. Lifelock how can I help? The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.
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