Talking Feds – "Lame but Lethal"

Date: November 24, 2025
Host: Harry Litman
Guests: Jason Kander (Veterans Community Project, Majority 54 Podcast), Mara Liasson (NPR), Josh Marshall (Talking Points Memo)

Episode Overview

This episode of Talking Feds delves into a bruising week for President Trump’s administration, marked by his forced release of Jeffrey Epstein files, a high-profile GOP rebellion, and growing signs of his weakening grip—both within his party and in the courts. Litman and panelists dissect the political and legal ramifications, the president’s temperament, the battle for the GOP’s soul, and what his mounting vulnerabilities may mean for American democracy moving into 2026.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s About-Face on Epstein Files ([04:20]–[11:28])

• Trump caves on Epstein documents:
  After months resisting a House measure to force the release of Epstein files, President Trump stunningly signed the bill, claiming “we've got nothing to hide.” The panel agrees this reversal convinces no one of genuine transparency.

  “I don't think anybody buys it as anything more than wanting to say he won or didn’t lose... They passed a law which basically asked him to release the files or whatever files he says are the files.” – Josh Marshall [05:02]

• Unanimous Republican break:
  The House and Senate GOP overwhelmingly defied Trump, save one holdout vote, pushing through the release measure. This, the panel argues, signals a seismic, perhaps unprecedented, breach between Trump and congressional Republicans.

  “This marks the beginning of the lame duck period of his presidency to some extent.” – Jason Kander [07:00]

• Why the turnaround?
  Panelists suggest Trump only reversed course when internal review revealed damaging material. His reversal is interpreted as a way to position himself ahead of a parade he could no longer block.

  “Trump and everybody in his cabinet was like, we gotta get the Epstein files out. Then they looked at them and then they were like, no.” – Jason Kander [07:12]

2. The Limits of Conspiracy and the Unraveling of Control ([09:15]–[12:09])

• Base-driven scandal:
  Mara Liasson emphasizes that the push was not really led by Trump, but by the conspiratorial energy of his base—“and this is the thing about conspiracy theories. They're never satisfied.”

• No way to satisfy the Republican base:
  Even selective release won’t quell suspicions, especially given Bondi’s overt promise to target Democrats first, fueling further distrust and infighting.

  “This was the biggest defeat Trump has had. It was the biggest crack between him and his base because no modern president has had as firm a hold on the base of their party as Donald Trump.” – Mara Liasson [09:59]

3. Crumbling Republican Solidarity: The ‘Lame Duck’ Phase ([13:44]–[21:34])

• The permission structure for GOP dissent:
  The unified congressional vote and Trump’s public fracturing offer establishment Republicans a new “permission structure” to push back.

• Loss of the ‘dominator’ presidency:
  Panelists return to the idea that Trump’s entire political identity is about domination. If he cannot dominate, he loses all currency in his own world and party.

  “Everything in Donald Trump’s world... is this binary between there is the dominator and the dominated. There’s no ambiguity.” – Josh Marshall [19:45]

• Comparisons to Bush’s decline:
  Unlike George W. Bush, who maintained party affection despite toxicity, Trump’s cult of personality makes decline uniquely fraught and perilous—colleagues become enemies overnight.

  “Because as soon as you are not dominating, you’ve pissed off a lot of people... made them act like peons and toadies. So there’s a lot of ill will toward him.” – Josh Marshall [32:46]

4. Trump’s Tactics: Lashing Out and the Risk of Dangerous Escalation ([21:34]–[29:47])

• Escalating invective:
  As Trump’s position weakens, he lashes out with heightened vileness, targeting journalists and political enemies with misogynistic insults and threats.

  “They may be gross, but they're kind of pitiful because you see right now that he's weak politically. And one of the reasons he's losing power is that he looks weak.” – Josh Marshall [21:48]

• Will Trump successfully rally the base with even more “gross and vicious” behavior?
  Panelists suspect only a major external shock (“exogenous event”) could reignite Trump’s political engine, as happened with the pandemic and George Floyd protests in 2020.

5. Economic Headwinds and Trump’s Policy Missteps ([17:06]–[29:25])

• Tariffs and affordability crisis:
  The conversation highlights the irony that Trump, elected by hammering economic anxiety, has deepened it through tariffs and erratic policy—making goods and health care more expensive.

  “He talked about the economy... What has been his really the only consistent thing... Tariffs. So he took an election that he very narrowly won by complaining about the price of things, and then... made it his sole focus to make stuff more expensive.” – Jason Kander [18:39]

• Economic instability feeds political decline:
  Trump’s unpredictability, particularly in economic policy, is viewed as a key reason for ongoing dissatisfaction and his party’s recent electoral shellackings.

6. Weak Trump = Lethal Trump? ([29:25]–[34:19])

• Potential for dangerous actions:
  As he loses control, panelists warn Trump’s instability may make him more dangerous—drawing comparisons to dictator psychology.

  “To the question of does it make him more dangerous? It makes him immensely more dangerous. I mean, from starting a war with Venezuela to... I don't even want to go through the list because what if he hears them?” – Jason Kander [30:27]

• The risk of lashing out at institutions:
  Panelists expect renewed abuses of executive and military authority, especially if (as anticipated) the Supreme Court grants him expanded powers.

  “The Supreme Court is probably about to give him a whole bunch of expanded powers and there's a lot of things he can do to affect the next election...” – Mara Liasson [29:47]

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s instinct to blame others:

  “Donald Trump is the Aaron Rodgers of presidents... he will tell you how it was everyone else's fault, and that's how he has handled most of this stuff in his career.” – Jason Kander [15:01]

• On the GOP’s broader resentment:

  “There are more than enough Republicans in the Senate who despise the guy. And if he's losing you elections, that despising is going to get a lot more intense, don't you think?” – Josh Marshall [34:19]

• On conspiracy theory politics:

  “This was a monster of Trump's own creation. He ran on this. There was a giant scandal with Epstein and Bill Clinton. Pam Bondi said she had the client list on her desk. Oops, that turned out not to be true.” – Mara Liasson [09:31]

Timestamps for Critical Segments

• [04:20] Trump caves on the Epstein files
• [07:00] Panel discusses “lame duck” status, unity breaking in GOP
• [09:59] Liasson: “Biggest defeat Trump has had”—crack with the base
• [15:01] Kander’s “Aaron Rodgers” analogy on Trump’s blame-shifting
• [17:06–19:34] Mara Liasson and Jason Kander: Off-year election loss accelerates political decline
• [19:45] Marshall on Trump’s “dominator and dominated” binary
• [21:48] Weakness behind Trump’s escalating misogynistic rhetoric; loss of dominance
• [29:25] Host asks panel: Is a weakened Trump more dangerous?
• [30:27] Jason Kander: “It makes him immensely more dangerous...”
• [32:46] Marshall: Trump’s binary approach breeds party ill will

Special Discussion – Military Orders and the Rule of Law ([36:58]–[45:12])

• Ad reminding military personnel not to obey unlawful orders:
  The airing of an ad by Democratic veterans (and current members of Congress) prompts a discussion of its significance in the current climate. Kander emphasizes it is meant to reassure military members that they will have institutional support:

  “If you are... a commander of a missile boat off the coast of Venezuela and you’re given an unlawful order, it is important that you know that you are not on a metaphorical island...” – Jason Kander [37:48]

  • Trump, conversely, calls the ad “seditious,” seeking to further politicize and polarize the military.

  • Panelists discuss the practicalities of legal training in the military and the importance of civilian-military trust.

Supreme Court, Redistricting, and the Road Ahead ([45:47]–[50:59])

• Texas racial gerrymander decision:
  Discussion on the recent court ruling invalidating Texas’s gerrymander, the procedural future at the Supreme Court, and the potential for seismic partisan shifts.

  “This is actually one of my big questions for... the remainder of Trump's presidency—is... the Supreme Court... will they be immune to the... recognition now that Trump is the weak horse?” – Josh Marshall [48:42]

• Supreme Court, Roberts’ role, and outcome-driven reasoning:
  The integrity and political motivations of the Supreme Court are put under the microscope.

Five Words or Fewer: What Should NY Mayor Mandani Say to Trump? ([51:43]–[52:00])

• Jason Kander: “Gold straight out blocks”
• Mara Liasson: “Just keep talking about cost of living”
• Josh Marshall: “Talk to the hand Trump”
• Harry Litman: “Give Trump a little summons”

Tone and Language

The episode is marked by wry humor, candor, and deep concern for American democratic institutions. Speakers keep things lively—cracking analogies, employing direct language, and offering both analytical and personal insights, while never losing sight of the gravity of the moment.

Conclusion

The “Lame but Lethal” episode captures a week of rare vulnerability and volatility in the Trump administration, chronicling the implications of congressional rebellion, a restless Republican base, and the president’s outbursts as growing signs that the “steamroller” presidency has stalled. Yet, with legal peril looming and institutional guardrails fraying, the panel cautions: a weakened president is not necessarily a less dangerous one—and the months ahead could prove both pivotal and perilous for American democracy.