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Senator Raphael Warnock
Foreign.
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Harry Littman
Welcome to Talking Feds. One on one deep dive discussions with national figures about the most fascinating and consequential issues defining our culture and shaping our lives. I'm your host, Harry Littman.
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Interviewer/Host
It's a privilege to be joined today by Senator Raphael Warnock. Senator Warnock has represented Georgia in the Senate since 2021. He is also the senior pastor of Atlanta's historic Ebenezer Baptist Church, the Atlanta congregation once led by Martin Luther King, Jr. A graduate of Morehouse College with a Ph.D. in theology, he's built a national reputation by bringing the language of faith and moral responsibility and into public life. The senator's new book, the Crooked Places Made Reflections on the Moral Meaning of America, takes its title from the prophet Isaiah and argues that many of America's biggest challenges are, at their core, moral questions. The book's a reflection on the country's direction and a call to imagine a more just democracy. Senator Warnock, welcome to Talking Feds. It's an honor to be with you.
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Senator Raphael Warnock
Great to be with you. Thanks so much.
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Interviewer/Host
I wanted to launch right in with the book, and at the heart of the book and the inspiration for the title is the prophet Isaiah. Why choose him as the sort of animating figure?
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Senator Raphael Warnock
Well, you know, I often say that I'm not a senator who used to be a pastor. I'm a pastor in a Senate. I'm a pastor in a Senate. In fact, I return to my pulpit every Sunday to preach the gospel. And I often say I don't want to spend all my time talking to politicians. I'm afraid I might accidentally become one. And so I have always tried to place my work here in the Senate within a moral frame. That's who I am. The basic moral questions for those who are watching and seeing this preacher who serves in this Senate, let me just say at the outset, because I know a lot of lawyers and folks watch this program, I believe firmly in the separation of church and state. I love this experiment in American government. So what I bring to my work in the Senate is not the creeds and the orthodoxy of my faith, but the values, truth, telling, justice, making, compassion, the ability to look into your neighbor's eyes and know that in that reflection is a glimpse of your own humanity. And Isaiah has long been a guide for me in that journey. And the book is centered around a text in Isaiah 40 that is taken up in various ways in the words of hip hop, remixed and sampled, if you will, by all the gospel writers. And it's this grand vision that says, every valley shall be exalted. Every mountain and hill shall be made low. The crooked places shall be made straight, the rough places smooth. And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together. I use Isaiah as a signpost and as a teacher. As I think in this moral moment in America in which we are so traumatized, I think as a country, by what has been happening over the last 10 years, there is this temptation to say what we need to do is get past this and return. And Isaiah is writing during a time of exile. The people are away from the land and the familiar signposts, the things that give people certainty and security have slipped away. And what I think Isaiah is telling us, and anybody reading this moment, I think correctly, needs to understand that what we need is not a return to the land, return to, but what we need is a reimagining. If where we were was so good, we wouldn't be here. The fact that more than 70 million of our American neighbors thought it was a good idea to do this twice is indicative of a deep spiritual problem. And I don't think the puny language of politics, even though I'm in politics, I think it's too puny a vocabulary to really capture what's at stake here. There's a dis ease gripping the American soul and I try to speak to that in this book.
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Interviewer/Host
You know, beautifully put. And we'll get to some of the remix hip hop aspect when we talk mass incarceration. I do want to follow up just a little bit more on Isaiah, whom I also had to study as a boy. And I think of him as a pretty harsh figure. He's got violent rhetoric, he rebukes the reader. He's got radical talk of liberation that sounds like it could come from a college activist. So it just strikes me as a very different tone from your very calm demeanor. Is there a contradiction there that he is your signpost for the moral ills that afflict the country?
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Senator Raphael Warnock
No. I think there's a reason why all of the gospel writers as they tell the story of God loving us so much that God becomes one of us and walks among us. The story of love, the love ethic of Jesus, they all lean into Isaiah. Isaiah is chock full of hope. Yeah, there are those images and I think that points to the complexity of our humanity and the complexity of the faith itself, which is why I'm interested in a tough minded faith that asks itself hard questions. I won't get into that. That's my other work as a theologian. But I think Ultimately, Isaiah leans into hope. And there's this wonderful passage that talks about the lion lying next to the lamb. I mean, what a great image that is, particularly in this divisive moment. And he says, and a little child shall lead them. And I must admit that even as a preacher, that that image has long felt so idyllic. It was hard to wrap my mind around it. Like, what do you mean? The lion shall lie down next to a lamb, A little child shall lead them. I think that what Isaiah is helping us to see is that there's one thing that even mortal enemies and adversaries have in common. Here's something that political opponents have in common. We all love our children and we all want our children to be okay. I can tell you that as a dad, Isaiah says, a little child shall lead them. I think the moral leap that we need to make in this moment, as we're seeing cruelty being unleashed against immigrants on American streets, as we are seeing this xenophobia and this hatred of neighbor, the moral leap that we have to make is that we've got to see that the welfare and the well being of our children, of your own children, is inextricably connected to the well being and welfare of your neighbor's children. And that if we in that sense, if we would allow the children to lead us, if we would recognize that even in a conflict as bitter and complicated as that between Jews and Palestinians, every night Jewish women and Palestinian women parents put their children to bed and here's what they have in common. They would like for their children to sleep in peace and awaken to a world that embraces their full humanity. And so while recognizing that these are complicated issues, I think the moral question we have to ask ourselves is how do we build a world that embraces all of those children? How do we craft public policy where we are led, in a deep sense by the children? And that is what has informed my work for decades. It, it's the reason why I fight so hard against poverty in the wealthiest nation on the planet. And it's the reason why I decided to do something as crazy as running for a United States Senate seat. It's not because I'm in love with politics. I'm in love with change. And every now and then you get to have a victory that makes a difference in the lives of real people. Finally, on this Isaiah question, you know, by the time we get to Isaiah 40, the people have been through a long night of strife. It's been a tough time. Much like our own kind of exile where you feel disconnected from yourself, so much craziness going on. And God says to Isaiah, comfort my people. Speak tenderly to them. Tell them that their warfare has ended, their iniquity is pardoned. Speak tenderly to them. And so this is the pastor in the Senate really challenging us to take on the real issues in our country while at the same time speaking a word of comfort. I know that I said that was the last word, but you're right, there are words of judgment in Isaiah starting with Isaiah 1, because he could be talking about dark money in 21st century America when he says in chapter one, your princes, which means politicians, your princes are rebels, they are companions with thieves. He says, everybody's looking for a bribe and they do not hear the widow's calls, the orphan's calls does not come before them. Isaiah is saying all of these centuries ago that the politicians are so beholden to their own self dealing, self enrichment, self preservation, that this has real human consequences. The poor, the weak, the most marginalized members of the human family cannot be heard in the high places of government because the princes are so focused on themselves. He could be speaking to 21st century America in which our politics is just awash in money, awash in the outsized power of wealthy and well connected interests. And what I'm trying to do is to summon us to our better selves.
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Interviewer/Host
Fair enough. And we'll set Isaiah to the side for now and go to the puny language of politics. But for everyone listening, really rich argument about Isaiah's, you know, fire and brimstone resolving to a message of hope and, and peace that are one of the, the treasures of the book. Okay, a little bit about faith, but now in the, in the down and dirty, if you will, because I, I think it's fair to say that the presence of religion and democratic politics has been ebbing for decades. You're one of the very few rising stars within the party for whom faith is central. Not just for your personal life, but as you've just said, and as we're moving to your politics. Quick question about your party. Do you think Democrats have made a mistake by getting away from the kinds of, you know, language and lessons of faith more generally?
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Senator Raphael Warnock
Short answer is yes.
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Interviewer/Host
Shall we go next? Next question or. Yeah, go ahead.
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Senator Raphael Warnock
Well, you know, look, faith has always been a part of my politics because it's who I am. I'm a man of faith. I'm a faith leader. But for me, I just want to be clear. This is not a strategy. It's not a political strategy. It's who I am. And I think we need to be grounded in these larger questions of values. What kind of nation do we want to be? That's really what I'm asking. And you don't have to be a Christian. You don't have to come from the Judeo Christian tradition. I think to engage with the conversation that I'm trying to have in the book, the Crooked Place Is Made Straight, I am careful to say that I'm speaking to people of various faith traditions and people who have deep problems with faith, who are atheists, who are agnostics, people who are asking questions, people who claim no faith tradition at all, but are people of moral courage. And I'm asking even and across political differences, can we agree on a set of values that I lay out in the book. And I put those values in conversation with some of the big issues that we're wrestling with today. Voting rights, dark money in our politics, poverty, mass incarceration, climate change, guns, all of these things. Six big issues that I've worked on. I take them on in the book even as I ask these larger questions which get to ultimately, who do we want to be? What kind of nation do we want to be?
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Interviewer/Host
And I want to move exactly to those six issues, but I can't. One more question about faith, because you talked about working across the aisle. There is a image of faith in the country on the other side, among the red America, if you will. Maybe you would point to Pete Hegseth and you talk in the book, Senator, about the political strength of white evangelicals, their role as Donald Trump's electoral bulwark. Do you think there's not just a political argument to be had, but a theological one as well? Or what do you think when you see your faith deployed in the way that it's being deployed and used among some within the government to include the president.
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Senator Raphael Warnock
I point out in the Crooked Places Made straight that there was a study recently that showed that of all the groups, evangelical Christians were more likely than any other group you can think of to blame the poor for being poor, to attribute their poverty to some kind of personal deficiency. And so for me, I think that speaks to something about the way in which they are hearing and interpreting the faith. But I want you to think about that. I mean, that Christians would be more likely, or some sector of Christians at least more likely than any other group to see a poor person and say that what I'm witnessing, what I'm seeing is not just a material deficiency, but somehow that material deficiency is reflective of A moral deficiency that for me is a corrupting of the faith of the barefoot rabbi from Nazareth who said that he came to preach good news to the poor. Jesus is the principal victim of identity theft in American public life. I don't know who this mean spirited, deeply judgmental, racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, militaristic, loving Jesus is. He is not the Jesus of the Gospels. And I'm trying to encourage us to find him and reclaim him.
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Interviewer/Host
The battle against poverty used to be a core focus of Democratic politics and it, it feels that that's not so true anymore. It is a key preoccupation of yours. So, you know, let's go to the nitty gritty. What kinds of anti poverty programs would you want to see a Democratic House and Senate push for?
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Senator Raphael Warnock
Well, what we have witnessed over the last 50 years is wages being completely stagnant for working class people. And let's be honest, that has been the case across Republican and Democratic administrations. And so these are deep systemic problems. There's a way, there are ways in which this wealth inequality is baked into the cake. And that's the frustration that I think you see in the American body politic. People are seeing an increasing divide, a widening chasm between the basic things that they would expect and need their government to deliver, not in order to make them, but to create a way for them to make it themselves. There's a widening chasm between those expectations and what they're able to get. You see it in our deeply broken healthcare system. You see it in stagnant wages. You see people working harder and harder, seeing less and less for their money. And quite frankly, it is those conditions that set the context for an authoritarian to rise. And to say none of this is working for you. And that first point is, right, it's not really working. But then the second point that Donald Trump made was I'm the only one who can fix it. Put your faith in me.
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Interviewer/Host
Yes, exactly.
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Senator Raphael Warnock
Put your faith. I alone can fix it. And so that which is a kind of messianic declaration, and it's ironic that the loudest voices of Christian faith have surrounded that messianic declaration being made by a mere mortal that somehow he is some superhuman who can fix it. And we witnessed the consequences of that in the first two years of this now second term. Donald Trump said he was going to help families. Apparently charity begins at home because he's done an excellent job at helping his own family. They are richer than ever. They have now multi generational wealth. He's enriching not only himself, but his sons, and he's helping his family. He just hasn't focused on, on any of our families. And so I see this crisis as an opportunity for us, first of all, to put some guardrails on this president, to defeat him in November, defeat him again in 2028. But if we think that the purpose of our defeating him is to get back to where we were, we have deeply misdiagnosed. We need to think much bigger about where we need to go as a country to solve the housing affordability crisis. For example, I'd like to see the government take a much more robust role in addressing the fact that we're 5 million units short in affordable housing in this country. And as a result, the average age of a first time homebuyer right now is 40. So young people don't know if they'll ever be able to buy a home. People who are getting older don't know if they'll ever be able to retire with dignity. And we need to be able to have a robust conversation about what's wrong. And every time you raise these questions, the folks who are invested in this brokenness start calling you a socialist because they don't want to have the conversation and we have to push past them and reclaim government for the people and by the people.
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Interviewer/Host
You know, I think that word messianic is really trenchant. It's another conversation. But that was the word I kind of groped for during the campaign when he had this very odd presentation to his supporters. I am your retribution. Through me, you have this kind of revenge and retribution on your enemies. Okay, we won't reach all of them. So I just want people to know you've just, we've talked about poverty, but voting rights, gun violence, mass incarceration, dark money in politics and climate change. I do want to move now to voting rights and voter suppression. You've been very harsh about the Supreme Court, especially its gutting, really evisceration of the Voting Rights act that you said Chief Justice Roberts despises. Let's just, you know, the what are the long term impacts as you see them for black representatives presentation in America. And if I can do what the lawyers call compound question, you know, where does that lead you? There's a lot of people who have slowly come to the notion that we really need some radical reform of the court, even though it is tough medicine. I wonder if you too are among them.
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Senator Raphael Warnock
There's no question that this court is now stacked with partisans. And every single day, or much too often, they are undermining the credibility of the court with these decisions. The Calais decision among them on voting rights are just unconscionable. And so I think everything has to be on the table. Among the reforms we do need in our democracy is Supreme Court reform.
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Interviewer/Host
And do you in particular, if I can, or maybe this is something you have to reflect on more. Champion the sort of harshest reform that would simply add more justices to the court to counteract the current cadre of Trump justices that have brought down Voting Rights act and done so many other things in different areas.
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Senator Raphael Warnock
We have witnessed very recently this Calais decision in which the court that's supposed to be calling balls and strikes, they take a side. They take a side effectively in a partisan fight when they pretended that somehow we're going to deal with this gerrymandering question and pretend like race is not a factor here. Race is the whole reason why this is what this is about. And the idea that you could disaggregate racial gerrymandering from partisan gerrymandering in the South, a part of the country defined by this awful and complicated and yet beautiful story where we keep pushing, pushing forward, it's deeply intellectually dishonest. You look at that decision, the ways in which they've given this president more and more power. I could go on and on. I think everything has to be on the table.
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Interviewer/Host
Got it. You know, I wrote in the substack on a July 4th essay that went just at that point in sort of the roots within the Constitution. I had the insane privilege of clerking for Thurgood Marshall when we had the bicentennial of the Constitution. And he had some thoughts there that I think are dovetail with what you're saying.
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Senator Raphael Warnock
Foreign.
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Michael Waldman
I'm Michael Waldman, host of the Briefing podcast. I'm a former White House speechwriter, a lawyer and a constitutional scholar. And I'm president of the Brennan center for Justice. We work to repair and strengthen American democracy, from gerrymandering to abuse of presidential power, from Supreme Court reform to congressional corruption and more. What fun. You're going to hear new ideas in this podcast and you're going to hear about the strategies and the legal and political fights that will shape the next phase of American politics. If you care about our democracy, The Briefing is a podcast for you, another
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Interviewer/Host
area that has personal impact for you, but also something that you're a relative, lonely voice on, mass incarceration. Maybe I could just ask you, Senator who, why it's important what you see needs to be done there going forward.
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Senator Raphael Warnock
Mass incarceration in a real sense, is the downstream impact of our failure to invest on the front end of life. And so I talk a lot about that. The United States of America on its 250th anniversary, the land of the free. And we are. We're the land of the free, but we're also the mass incarceration capital of the world. We warehouse more of our people, and we warehouse a greater percentage of our people in prison than any nation on the planet. Think about all the nations whose human rights records we deplore. We outstrip them by far. Nobody even comes close. Not China, not North Korea. And so this is part also of the continuing problem in our country that began with the slave trade and slavery, which then became Jim Crow segregation, which is really the re enslavement of African Americans. I need more time to talk about that. And then we move from there to mass incarceration, which Michelle Alexander rightly calls the new Jim Crow. And what I'm worried about in this moment, among other things, by the way, those folks who are there, you say, well, don't commit the crime. A couple of statistics. Black people and white people use and sell drugs at roughly the same rate. We're all entitled to our own opinion, not our own facts. You wouldn't know that in terms of how the crimes are prosecuted in our country, which is why 50% of the folk there are black, even though we're 12% of the population. I'm concerned about that. I've been touched by it in my own life. I talk about it in the book. I'm also concerned by. I'm also concerned about what we're seeing with ice. We took ICE or the Republicans took ICE because they voted for it and they made it the largest law enforcement, federal law enforcement entity that we have, larger than all the others combined. As we're witnessing these detention centers, I was able to stop one from being built in Social Circle, Georgia and Oakwood, Georgia. So we look at these detention centers. I'm concerned that this is the next wave in the carceral state, and it will impact black and brown communities, poor people. And I'd like to see us invest in the forces of life rather than death and destruction.
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Interviewer/Host
You have a vote right now. So from the sublime to the political. Thank you so much for fitting us in, for talking about your book, which again is the Crooked Places Made Reflections on the Moral Meaning of America. Thank you very much, Senator Warnock.
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Senator Raphael Warnock
Thank you. Great to be with you.
- [28:28]
Interviewer/Host
Thank you for tuning in to One
- [28:30]
Harry Littman
on One, a weekly conversation series from Talking Feds.
- [28:35]
Interviewer/Host
If you like what you've heard, please
- [28:37]
Harry Littman
tell a friend to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever they get their podcasts. And please take a moment to rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to us on YouTube, where we are posting full episodes and daily updates on top legal stories. Check us out on substack harry litman.substack.com where we're posting two or three bulletins a week breaking down the various threats to constitutional norms and the rule of law. And Talking Fez has joined forces with the Contrarian. I'm a founding contributor to this new media venture, committed to reviving the diversity of opinion that feels increasingly rare in today's news landscape, where legacy media seems to be tacking toward Trump for business reasons rather than editorial ones. Rest assured, we're still the same scrappy independent podcast you've come to know and trust just now, linked up with an ambitious and vital project designed for this pivotal moment in our nation's legal and political discourse. Find out more@Contrarian.com substack.com thanks for tuning in, and don't worry, as long as you need answers, the Feds will keep talking.
- [29:57]
Interviewer/Host
Talking Feds is produced by Luke Cregan and Katie Upshaw, associate producer Becca Haveian, sound Engineering by Matt McArdle, Rosie Dawn Griffin, David Lieberman, Hansuma Hadrenathan, Emma Maynard and Hallie Necker are our contributing writers and production assistance by Akshaj Turbailu. Our music, as ever, is by the amazing Philip Glass. Talking Feds is a production of Deledo llc.
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Harry Littman
I'm Harry Littman.
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Interviewer/Host
Talk to you later.