Podcast Summary: Talking Feds
Episode: Senator Mark Kelly: "It's a Complete S*** Show"
Host: Harry Litman
Guest: Senator Mark Kelly (Arizona)
Date: December 11, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Harry Litman sits down with Senator Mark Kelly to discuss the escalating military operations in the Caribbean, allegations of illegal orders within the U.S. military command structure, and the administration's response to calls for accountability. The conversation dives deep into concerns about unlawful military action, deteriorating U.S. international standing, and growing risks to democratic norms—particularly in light of the Trump administration’s conduct and the ongoing investigation targeted at Senator Kelly himself for his outspoken criticism.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Context: The Controversy over Military Orders
- Background: Several lawmakers with military experience released a public service message reminding service members not to follow illegal commands.
- Administration Response: President Trump labeled their actions as "seditious behavior," calling for their prosecution. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth echoed the sentiment and ordered a probe into possible court martial for Senator Kelly.
[00:36-03:22]
2. The Caribbean Strikes and "Patently Illegal" Orders
- Latest Operations: Revealed double-tap strikes (a second attack on surviving boat crew) that align with what Senator Kelly and others warned against.
- Senator Kelly’s Reaction:
"When you have a president that has previously talked about killing the family members of terrorists ... and he's talked about shooting protesters in the legs ... these are things that are not consistent with our norms, our morals, our values."
(Sen. Kelly, 03:54) - Concerns with Defense Secretary: Pete Hegseth described as "clearly unqualified" and "runs around on a stage and talks about lethality and hunting and killing people".
(04:32) - Reminder for Military: The message was to remind service members "they are required to not obey illegal orders"—a core principle sometimes overlooked.
(05:21)
3. Congressional Inquiry – or Lack Thereof
- House Armed Services Committee: Its chair declared the investigation complete, prompting frustration.
"I think this is far from done. We've got Republicans in the Senate that want more information, that want to see the video and also think the video should be released to the public now."
(Sen. Kelly, 05:57) - On Not Having Seen the Video: Kelly has not seen operational video but has reliable reports on its disturbing content.
"What I've been told is rather concerning. And this is the kind of thing, you know, it's even in the Manual of War ... as a unlawful or illegal order."
(Sen. Kelly, 06:21 & 06:56)
4. Rule of Law and International Norms
- Geneva Conventions & Rules of Engagement: Kelly explains why the U.S. has such rules—for both moral standing and to protect its own service members in future conflict scenarios.
"That's why you don't want to kill survivors of a shipwreck at sea. Because ... that's going to be two Americans ... in exactly the same situation."
(Sen. Kelly, 07:59–08:19) - Erosion of International Reputation: He warns current actions threaten vital intelligence-sharing with allies like the UK.
"The UK is not sharing intelligence with us anymore."
(08:58–09:28)
5. Shift from Law Enforcement to Military Action
- Traditional Approach: Drug interdiction in the Caribbean is historically a law enforcement operation, not a military one.
- Current Policy:
"This has all changed under Donald Trump, and I don't know what his ultimate goal is here. ... Regime change just doesn't typically work well for us as a policy."
(Sen. Kelly, 09:28–10:16)
6. Increasing Lawlessness and Inconsistency
- Dramatic Quote:
"It's a complete shit show, right? On one hand, we're shooting hellfires in the boats and killing people who ... we don't even know if they're armed."
(Sen. Kelly, 11:21) - Policy Contradictions: Kelly highlights inconsistency in treating similar suspects differently; some are killed, others released, and political pardons are meted out with no clear rationale.
"Why are we releasing Juan Hernandez ... who's a drug trafficker, former president, and you're going to pardon him? I mean, this doesn't make any sense."
(Sen. Kelly, 11:53–12:55)
7. Threats to Democratic Norms and Targeting of Dissent
- Court Martial Threat: Secretary Hegseth is reportedly seeking to recall Kelly to face court martial on charges of sedition.
- Personal Stakes and Principle:
"I'm not going to let this president ... silence me. ... This affects all Americans and all service members ... If we can't speak out and exercise our First Amendment rights, you know, this is ... a slippery slope here, away from democracy and into something else. So I'm not backing down."
(Sen. Kelly, 15:07–15:59) - On Threats:
"I've nearly lost my life multiple times in service of this country. My wife was also nearly assassinated. It's like they're not gonna intimidate me with threats of prosecution."
(Sen. Kelly, 16:08)
8. Legal Perspective
- Litman’s View: The investigation into Senator Kelly is itself a constitutional violation, as it seeks to punish speech.
"Not only is your ... public service message impeccable and accurate, the actual constitutional violation is their investigation itself ..."
(Litman, 16:19–16:28)
9. Final Thoughts
- Kelly’s Determination:
"Aren't they investigating the wrong person here?"
(Sen. Kelly, 16:45)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
"It's a complete shit show, right? On one hand, we're shooting hellfires in the boats and killing people who ... we don't even know if they're armed."
(Sen. Kelly, 11:21) -
"I'm not going to let this president ... silence me. ... If we can't speak out and exercise our First Amendment rights, you know, this is ... a slippery slope here, away from democracy and into something else. So I'm not backing down."
(Sen. Kelly, 15:23–15:59) -
"That's why you don't want to kill survivors of a shipwreck at sea. Because on some future date ... that's going to be two Americans ... in exactly the same situation."
(Sen. Kelly, 07:59–08:19) -
"The UK is not sharing intelligence with us anymore ... that makes it harder for us to interdict ... But this has all changed under Donald Trump."
(Sen. Kelly, 09:28) -
"Aren't they investigating the wrong person here?"
(Sen. Kelly, 16:45)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 03:24: Litman asks about Kelly's reaction to the second strike news.
- 05:57: Congressional investigation declared 'complete' by House chair; Kelly's response.
- 06:56: Description of the strike and its legal implications.
- 07:59: Rationale for military law and Geneva compliance.
- 09:28: Intelligence sharing from the UK cut off.
- 11:21: Kelly’s powerful indictment: "It’s a complete shit show ..."
- 12:55: Inconsistent policy and inexplicable pardons.
- 14:29: Discussion of possible court martial threats and risks to democratic freedoms.
- 16:45: Kelly questions the priorities of the ongoing investigation.
Tone and Language
Senator Kelly is direct, candid, and at times blunt (“complete shit show”), expressing deep frustration but also resolve. The discussion is charged, reflecting urgent concern for both national conduct and personal repercussions.
This episode offers a frank insider’s account of a volatile moment in U.S. civil-military affairs, marked by sharp institutional tension, international blowback, and serious alarms about threats to core American values and democratic processes.