Talking Feds: Shutdown Smackdown, Chi-Town Showdown
Host: Harry Litman
Guests: Senator Barbara Boxer, Jonathan Capehart, Norm Ornstein
Date: October 6, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode of Talking Feds delves into an unprecedented government shutdown, President Trump’s deployment of federal force in Chicago, and the alarming erosion of established constitutional norms. The roundtable features former Senator Barbara Boxer, veteran journalist Jonathan Capehart, and political scientist Norm Ornstein. Together, they analyze the politics, legalities, and societal impacts of Trump’s assertive executive maneuvers and autocratic posturing—both in Washington and on the streets of American cities.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. The Nature and Stakes of the Government Shutdown
- A New Kind of Shutdown
- Unlike past shutdowns over spending levels, this one is centered on healthcare subsidies and Trump’s unprecedented use of rescission powers.
- Sen. Boxer (03:59): “Summing this up, it's a health care emergency. And secondarily we also have a president who won't spend what is legally authorized and appropriated.”
- Partisan Messaging & Public Blame
- Traditionally, the public blames the party in power during shutdowns, but this time the narrative is more complex.
- Republicans claim Democrats block reopening, but Democrats argue GOP priorities favor billionaires over millions threatened by premium hikes.
- Norm Ornstein (06:11): “The Republican win machine is far more disciplined and expansive than the ability of Democrats... at pushing back.”
- The “Bait and Switch” and Legality of Rescissions
- Trump’s administration repeatedly backtracks on bipartisan spending deals, using pocket rescissions and the complicity of a “lawless Supreme Court.”
- Jonathan Capehart (10:21): “The Supreme Court has said, go ahead and do it. And so Democrats are fighting on a very real issue.”
2. The Trump Administration’s Use—and Abuse—of Power
- Blurring Legality during Shutdown
- Trump and OMB Director Russ Vought are firing federal workers and canceling projects during the shutdown—actions panelists claim are flatly illegal.
- Norm Ornstein (15:52): “Everything they're doing now is illegal.”
- Jonathan Capehart (20:42): “What the president and OMB director... are doing, it's illegal. Absolutely illegal. But also... they don't care because the whole point... is to see how much they can get away with, test the system.”
- Weaponizing the Supreme Court and Delays
- Trump’s team exploits the time lag of litigation, knowing swift lower court remedies may be overturned (or further delayed) by the Supreme Court.
- Harry Litman (23:05): “For now turns out to be the whole game. And they're giving it to him again and again and again.”
- Abuse of the Hatch Act
- Federal agencies are inserting blame for the shutdown on Democrats into official communications, an outrageous violation of the Hatch Act.
- Norm Ornstein (30:03): “Employees of the Department of Education... is hacked into their emails so that their personal responses to emails blame the shutdown on the Democrats...”
3. Political Calculus and How the Shutdown May End
- Democrats’ Calculated Gamble
- Democratic unity, even in face of possible political harm, is seen as planting seeds to clarify public responsibility when premium hikes hit.
- Jonathan Capehart (25:49): “They are fighting. And in the end, they're probably going to get mauled in the process in the short term. But... they have planted the seeds... they will remember that it was Democrats who were fighting.”
- Will Republicans Fold First?
- Senator Boxer is more optimistic that Republicans—facing angry red-state constituents—could be forced to concede first.
- Sen. Boxer (27:47): “I think it's very possible that the Republicans come to the table and they take care of this problem. They put it in writing.”
4. The Chicago Federal Raid and the Authoritarian Playbook
- Shocking Violation in Chicago
- Federal agents, including ICE, conducted a military-style raid on a Chicago apartment building, violating Fourth Amendment norms and traumatizing citizens.
- Harry Litman (33:43): “They go into a building in Chicago where regular people live... just banging down doors and taking naked children down the street and detaining them.”
- Norm Ornstein (37:37): “[The Gestapo] didn’t break down their doors. If they asked for papers, they would look at the papers and say, okay, you're fine here. They don't care... They have devastated the lives of American citizens here in Chicago.”
- Testing Constitutional Boundaries
- Trump’s administration is “testing the system”—taking illegal action, counting on lagging court responses, and seemingly emboldened by Supreme Court deference.
- Jonathan Capehart (39:46): “What I don't think people understand is... when US Citizens get scooped up in this, that that could happen to them... And right now, all American citizens are at risk.”
- Racial Motivations and Public Response
- Senator Boxer points to the deep racism at the core of these directives; demonstrations continue, but the administration may be baiting protesters to provoke stricter crackdowns.
- Sen. Boxer (35:30): “The only reason he's doing it is because he believes the country is racist. The country is bigoted. The country wants this, and I don't believe that is true.”
5. The Militarization of Domestic Policy: Secretary of War Pete Hegseth
- A Dark Turning Point
- Hegseth’s meeting with military brass was both threatening and farcical, upending rules of engagement, championing brutality, and targeting diversity.
- Norm Ornstein (46:33): “Pete Hegseth said there are no rules of engagement, meaning no Geneva Convention torture, blow up innocent civilians, no rules of engagement.”
- Sen. Boxer (52:50): “He wants to purge and he's telling them in advance. If your heart sank in any of this... get out. That, to me, was stunning, because then that will be followed by questionnaires and purges.”
- Generals’ Stoic Resistance
- The silence of military leaders at the gathering showed professionalism and possible resistance to orders that contradict American values.
- Jonathan Capehart (53:29): “...the reaction of the generals in the room was probably the most heartening display I have seen in a very long time... they are the ones who are holding strong, at least for now.”
- Attack on Military Diversity and Education
- Hegseth is gutting diversity programs and liberal education in the military in favor of brute force and ideological loyalty.
- Norm Ornstein (54:54): “They have not systematically taken all of this out of the military academies... They do not want them to learn anything under Pete Hegseth except how to kill people. And that will include killing Americans.”
Memorable Quotes & Moments
- Sen. Boxer (04:20): “In this short term budget bill that the Republicans put together, they took care of the billionaires... But with a looming emergency on premiums... that can just wait. No, really it can't... it's a health care emergency.”
- Norm Ornstein (09:57): “If they had gone along with this CR and healthcare premiums shot up and rural hospitals closed, they would be complicit... By drawing this line... when those healthcare nightmares occur, it will be far more clear as to who's responsible.”
- Jonathan Capehart (20:42): “But also... they don't care because the whole point... is to see how much they can get away with, test the system.”
- Norm Ornstein (37:37): “Every time we see one of these outrages, I put on social media, american Gestapo... The Gestapo... didn’t break down their doors... They have devastated the lives of American citizens here in Chicago.”
- Sen. Boxer (52:50): “If your heart sank in any of this... get out. That, to me, was stunning, because then that will be followed by questionnaires and purges.”
Important Segment Timestamps
- Opening and Issue Framing – [00:06]–[03:59]
- Shutdown Politics and Arguments – [03:59]–[14:14]
- Legal Analysis: Powers and Illegality – [15:52]–[25:49]
- How Will the Shutdown End? – [25:49]–[29:10]
- Hatch Act Violations and Executive Lawlessness – [29:10]–[32:33]
- Chicago Federal Raid Discussion – [33:43]–[44:34]
- Public Reaction and Protest Tactics – [42:40]–[44:34]
- Secretary of War Hegseth, Militarization – [46:33]–[54:54]
- Institutional Resistance and Military Values – [53:29]–[54:54]
- Closing Rapid-Fire (“Five Words or Fewer”) – [57:14]–[57:39]
Notable Conclusions
- The shutdown centers not only on immediate policy but on the broader stability of the American constitutional system, with stark warnings that the nation is entering unprecedented authoritarian territory.
- Trump’s team is intentionally breaching legal limits and daring courts to stop them, betting that slow litigation and a sympathetic Supreme Court will let them lock in their actions.
- Acts in cities like Chicago represent major overreaches—potentially testing the limits of the Constitution and public tolerance.
- The military's reaction to Hegseth and Trump provided a thin glimmer of hope for institutional integrity.
- Panelists are sharply divided on whether Democrats will “fold,” but they agree that this confrontation could define the future balance of American governance.
Tone and Language
Panelists were blunt and urgent, with an undercurrent of alarm about the durability of American democracy and the rule of law. They spoke candidly, often referencing historical parallels (including the Gestapo and Nazi analogies) to stress the gravity of current events. There was also measured hope placed in civic protest and principled resistance within institutions like the military.
Summary for the Uninitiated
If you haven’t heard this episode, you’re diving into the eye of America’s unfolding constitutional crisis. The discussion makes a compelling case that Trump’s shutdown tactics and authoritarian deployments—up to and including military-style raids against citizens—are not merely political skirmishes, but signal deep existential threats to self-government and the Constitution itself.
End of summary.