Talking Feds – “The Legacy of the Subway Vigilante”
Air date: January 29, 2026
Host: Harry Litman
Guest: Elliot Williams (Author of Five Bullets, CNN Legal Analyst, former DOJ and Senate counsel)

Episode Overview

This episode features a conversation between Harry Litman and Elliot Williams about Williams’s new book, Five Bullets, which revisits the notorious 1984 “subway vigilante” case of Bernard Goetz. The discussion examines the complexities of the case, the terrifying atmosphere of 1980s New York City, the legal and social ramifications of vigilantism, and the enduring role of race, fear, and media in shaping public perception and policy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Story of Bernard Goetz (02:30 – 04:49)

• Background: On December 22, 1984, Bernard Goetz, a white man, shot four Black teenagers in a New York City subway car, claiming self-defense from an attempted mugging. He was charged and ultimately acquitted of violent crimes.
• The “Five Bullets” Mystery: The book’s title reflects the legal and factual ambiguity at the center of the case—how four young men were shot with five bullets, and whether Goetz’s conduct shifted from self-defense to something more deliberate.
• Quote:
  “All that’s not in doubt is that he boards a downtown New York City subway December 22, 1984, shoots, claims he’s about to be mugged by four black teenagers, shoots them all with five bullets, runs away, goes on trial and is ultimately acquitted of all violent crime charges.”
  – Elliot Williams (02:30)

2. Legal Nuances and Self-Defense (05:46 – 06:34)

• Escalation and Legal Justification: The law in the U.S. permits lethal force in fear of imminent harm, but Williams explores how Goetz’s actions may have gradually lost their legal rationale as he fired subsequent shots, especially as the victims were fleeing or incapacitated.
• The Problem of the “Fifth Bullet”: Raises questions about intent and proportionality in self-defense.

3. Life and Zeitgeist of 1980s New York (07:11 – 10:05)

• Atmosphere: The city was deeply troubled, with soaring homicide rates, fear, a struggling economy, and a sense of chaos—setting the stage for the public’s response to Goetz.
• Quote:
  “It is almost impossible to comprehend the mythic level of unrest that characterized life in New York a few decades ago.”
  – (Williams, quoting Harry Litman, 07:43)
• Cultural Touchstones: References to films like Death Wish and Taxi Driver illustrate the public psyche and the role of the subway as a “democratic” but dangerous institution.

4. The Victims’ Perspective & Goetz’s Persona (11:01 – 14:46)

• Victim Interviews: Williams was unable to interview the surviving victims, most notably due to their reluctance and the lasting trauma and legal outcomes (including an unpaid $35 million civil judgment).
• Goetz Interview:
  • Williams interviewed Goetz, finding him “three-dimensional,” opinionated, and disturbingly candid.
  • Quote:
    “Those guys needed shooting, for starters. Just for starters. That’s not why I shot them. But they absolutely needed shooting.”
    – Bernard Goetz (as quoted by Williams, 12:30)
  • Williams points out Goetz’s quasi-eugenic belief that society would be better off without certain people, rather than expressing pure fear or self-defense.

5. Media & Public Reaction (15:52 – 18:46)

• Hero Worship: Goetz was greeted as a hero by many New Yorkers, even receiving applause from prospective jurors during jury selection (15:52).
• Media Sensationalism: Tabloids like the New York Post and Daily News played a massive role in stoking fear and lionizing Goetz, driving a cycle of public anxiety and calls for vigilante justice.
• Quote:
  “The energy in the city and the most vocal energy seem to be from supporters... the police tip line is overwhelmed by people offering their Purple Hearts and offering to pay him money.”
  – Elliot Williams (15:52)
• Shaping Perceptions: Media headlines were “big 3-inch headline blaring,” often becoming the lens through which New Yorkers understood crime and safety (18:46).

6. Race and Perceptions of Justice (20:43 – 24:24)

• Centrality of Race: The episode makes clear that the races of perpetrator and victims powerfully influenced media coverage, public sentiment, and political responses.
• Sharpton’s Nuanced Perspective: Al Sharpton, then a street activist, acknowledged wrongdoing on both sides, focusing on justice rather than simplistic hero/villain narratives.
• Quote:
  “What if a black guy, a middle class black guy, shoots four white teenagers on the subway and runs away?... Just acknowledge the reality that we all would see such an event play out differently.”
  – Elliot Williams (21:37)

7. The Trial – Law vs. Morality (24:24 – 29:10)

• Trial as Microcosm: The courtroom became a stage for broader societal fears and issues; public passions ran high.
• Governing Law: The Goetz case set the precedent for self-defense in New York (“reasonableness” standard—subjective/objective blend), relevant decades later in cases like Daniel Penny/Jordan Neely (26:32).
• Unfavorable Prosecution: The prosecution struggled, with Williams relaying that a critical witness alienated the jury (28:07).
• Acquittal: The jury’s verdict, while perhaps legally defensible, was deeply influenced by their own fears and identification with Goetz.

8. The Enduring Legacy & Modern Echoes (30:31 – 32:31)

• Modern Vigilantism: Williams draws direct parallels between Goetz’s case and recent figures like Kyle Rittenhouse and Daniel Penny.
• Amplification via Social Media: Today’s veneration—and vilification—of vigilantes is fueled by rapid online communication, often turning ordinary citizens into divisive symbols.
• Quote:
  “The country since its founding has had a fixation on vigilantes who are usually white guys who step out and do that which they feel the public cannot. And so in many respects, the book Five Bullets isn’t just about 1984. It’s a broader look at… how events like this play into some of the deepest and darkest fantasies that Americans have.”
  – Elliot Williams (31:11)

9. Legal vs. Moral Judgments (32:31 – 35:05)

• Limits of the Law: Williams and Litman discuss the fundamental limitations of legal verdicts to capture the deeper moral complexities of cases like Goetz’s.
• Quote:
  “Twelve imperfect people, people and one imperfect judge were about to make imperfect work out of an imperfect system.”
  – Harry Litman (as cited by Williams, 32:31)
  • Williams emphasizes the need to differentiate between what is legal and what is moral, urging readers and listeners to think for themselves beyond verdicts.
• Quote:
  “Simply embracing and respecting the propriety of legal decisions ought not be the way we ought to see the world... it’s more complex than that.”
  – Elliot Williams (34:30)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Goetz’s Attitude:
  “Those guys needed shooting, for starters.” (12:30)
• The Mythic Unrest:
  “It is almost impossible to comprehend the mythic level of unrest that characterized life in New York a few decades ago.” (07:43)
• On Race and Perception:
  “Just acknowledge the reality that we all would see such an event play out differently.” (21:37)
• Vigilantism’s Legacy:
  “The country since its founding has had a fixation on vigilantes who are usually white guys who step out and do that which they feel the public cannot.” (31:11)
• On Law vs. Morality:
  “That’s a legal decision. That’s not the same as a moral one.” (33:35)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Williams’s Background: 00:00 – 02:30
• Recap of the Subway Vigilante Case: 02:30 – 04:49
• Legal Nuances of Self-defense: 05:46 – 06:34
• Atmosphere of 1980s NYC: 07:11 – 10:05
• Victims and Goetz’s Persona: 11:01 – 14:46
• Tabloid Media & Public Reaction: 15:52 – 18:46
• Role of Race: 20:43 – 24:24
• The Trial, Legal Principles: 24:24 – 29:10
• Modern Vigilantism & Social Media: 30:31 – 32:31
• Law vs. Morality Conclusion: 32:31 – 35:05

Tone & Language

The discussion is thoughtful, reflective, and nuanced, echoing the depth of Williams’s reporting and writing. There’s an undercurrent of seriousness and moral reflection, but moments of humor and shared memory keep the conversation accessible and engaging.

Summary prepared for listeners who want a thorough understanding of the episode’s content, themes, and most resonant moments without having to listen in full.