Talking Feds – "Trauma and Terror in Minnesota"

Host: Harry Litman
Guests: Norman Eisen, Katie Fang, Jennifer Rubin
Date: January 19, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Harry Litman brings together prominent contributors from The Contrarian to dissect the explosive legal and political crisis stemming from the Trump administration’s response to the killing of Renee Goode in Minnesota. The panel explores the administration's deployment of federal power in the state, the resultant protests, threats to invoke the Insurrection Act, extraordinary resignations at the Department of Justice, and implications for the rule of law and democracy as Trump begins his second year in office. The episode also touches on Trump's attempt to prosecute Fed Chair Jerome Powell and the broader decline of institutional independence.

Key Topics & Insights

1. Minnesota Crisis: Political Context & Empathy Gap

• Trump Administration's Response:
  The administration’s response to the killing of Renee Goode—embracing Jonathan Ross’s aggressive ICE action—has tanked approval ratings and sparked widespread protest.

  • Quote (Jennifer Rubin, 04:50):
    “They don't know how to do anything differently. These people never know when to stop. They are their worst enemies. Trump thinks he's invincible, and no one has shown him wrong.”
  • Empathy & Public Perception:
    The killing of a relatable, white mother cut through the nation’s “empathy gap,” bringing widespread outrage.
    • Quote (Jennifer Rubin, 06:00):
      “It’s sad that it takes the image of a young, attractive, frankly white mother to get people to see themselves in another human being… it did… There isn’t a person who isn’t completely in the Trump cult that doesn’t see what happened here, doesn’t feel empathy, doesn’t see that something is deeply wrong.”

• ICE Overreach and Public Backlash:
  Norm Eisen draws historical parallels to civil rights movement images that shocked the conscience of the nation, suggesting that the visual evidence and brutality have lasting impact.

• MAGAs ‘War Mentality’:
  Katie Fang notes the administration and its supporters are willing to endure unpopularity in pursuit of longer-term gains, emphasizing an alarming tolerance for short-term political pain for perceived eventual victory.

2. Strategic Response & Democratic Opportunity

• Missed Opportunities for Democrats:
  Jennifer Rubin calls for Democrats to seize the moment, focusing on a coherent message and active legislative response.

  • Quote (Jennifer Rubin, 14:46):
    “Democrats have to get away from the idea that if they can't see a win at the end point, then they don't try… Each one of these is an opportunity to hack away at Trump's support, to make the issue front and center.”

• Concrete Policy Initiatives:
  Rubin cites initiatives from Democrats like Chris Murphy and Ro Khanna—limiting use of lethal force and reigning in ICE—while noting the importance of enacting laws at the state level as a deterrent.

  • Quote (Jennifer Rubin, 17:04):
    “They are overwhelmingly popular, so they need to get behind a set of very reasonable, simply understood initiatives... very common sense… no one would have thought would be necessary to repeat, because no law enforcement operation behaves this way.”

3. Legal Crisis: DOJ Resignations & Erosion of Institutional Norms

• Wave of DOJ Resignations:
  Resignations at Main Justice and in Minnesota signal alarm about the politicization of law enforcement.

  • Quote (Katie Fang, 22:38):
    “I laud the integrity of people that will not allow themselves to be used as weapons to further the destruction of the norms and institutions that we have... It's a stunning fall from grace for an office that was always supposed to be such an independent, stalwart defender of the rule of law.”

• Weaponization of Federal Power:
  The DOJ’s pivot from investigating the shooting to investigating the governor and mayor on implausible grounds is read as a dangerous abuse.

  • Use of “Obstruction” as Ploy:
    Expansion of definitions and broad prosecutorial overreach concern the panel, especially as justifications for more aggressive federal intervention.

4. Insurrection Act & Minnesota Lawsuit

• Trump’s Threats and Legal Constraints:
  Discussions clarify the Insurrection Act’s historical intent and the legal limits that likely prevent its invocation here.
  • Quote (Norm Eisen, 29:04):
    “The problem is that statute, both its words and its legislative history make clear it's intended for insurrection. It’s not intended to deal with the situation where ICE is rampantly violating the law… mostly peaceful protests…”
• 10th Amendment & State Sovereignty:
  Minnesota and other states sue to protect state sovereignty, warning that compelled cooperation in federal investigations violates anti-commandeering principles.
  • Quote (Katie Fang, 37:08):
    “If there was anything that was left to the states exquisitely and exclusively, it's the ability to police your own residents… factual support for a 10th Amendment claim, that’s 100% where we should park the facts.”

5. Attacks on Fed Chair Powell

• Trump’s Retaliation Efforts:
  The group derides the accusation against Powell as absurd and emblematic of a regime obsessed with dominance over independent institutions.
  • Quote (Norm Eisen, 47:53):
    “He’s a dictator dunce. He is like in the remedial classroom of dictators. And that's what we saw with Powell.”
• Business Community Awakening:
  Notable was Powell’s unusually strong public statement and the rare, bipartisan defense from business and financial leaders.
  • Quote (Jennifer Rubin, 48:07):
    “There were a surprising number of Republicans who squeaked up. You had Jamie Dimon… speak out… at least it got them to come out of their coma.”

6. Historical Parallels and Democracy at Risk

• Reflection on Democratic Norms:
  The episode closes with reflections on the fragility and unfinished nature of American democracy, referencing MLK Day and the ongoing battle for civil rights and institutional independence.

  • Quote (Katie Fang, 50:07):
    "We’ve had a no monarchy for 250 years. Even though convicted felon Donald Trump wants to be king."
  • Quote (Jennifer Rubin, 48:07):
    “You can’t have a democracy when 30, 40% of the people are disabled from voting… this notion that democracy has been in place for 250 years is frankly bullshit.”

Memorable Quotes & Standout Moments

• Jennifer Rubin on Empathy & Politics (06:00):
  “It’s sad that it takes the image of a young, attractive, frankly white mother to get people to see themselves in another human being…”
• Norm Eisen on ICE and Jim Crow (08:52):
  “The thing that we saw as the week unfolded and ICE became increasingly unhinged is a kind of police power violence, unrestrained police power violence that is very foreign to the American way.”
• Katie Fang on DOJ Degradation (22:38):
  “It is a stunning fall from grace for an office that was always supposed to be such an independent, stalwart defender of the rule of law.”
• Norm Eisen on Insurrection Act (29:04):
  “That statute... is not intended to deal with the situation where ICE is rampantly violating the law... mostly peaceful protests and ICE provokes the occasional overreactions.”
• Jennifer Rubin on American Democracy (48:07):
  “We were not a democracy until the Voting Rights Act passed… this notion that democracy has been in place for 250 years is frankly bullshit.”
• Katie Fang on Trump’s Style (11:20):
  “It's kind of in their DNA to functionally be dysfunctional.”
• Harry Litman on Current Times (51:18):
  "For the head of the Fed to say it shows, you know, the gloves are off and we are in strange, strange, troubled times.”

Important Timestamps

• 00:06 – 04:50: Episode context, crisis in Minnesota, panel introductions
• 04:50 – 11:20: Empathy gap, ICE aggression, Trump’s political calculus
• 13:57 – 19:53: Democratic strategy, legislative prospects, calls for concrete action
• 22:38 – 26:09: DOJ mass resignations, erosion of institutional norms
• 27:18 – 35:12: Discussion of Insurrection Act, 10th Amendment, law enforcement discipline
• 37:08 – 40:05: Minnesota’s lawsuit, state sovereignty, policing power
• 44:23 – 51:30: Trump’s prosecution threats against Powell, business and bipartisan backlash
• 51:30 – End: Reflections on democracy, final humorous “Five Words or Fewer” segment

Tone & Language

The episode maintains a deeply engaged, urgent, and sometimes exasperated tone. The panelists do not hold back in describing the extremity and danger of current events, employing both expert legal analysis and pointed, sometimes sardonic, commentary—capturing the gravity of the issues and the patriotic frustration at institutions under siege.

For new listeners:
This episode offers a comprehensive, accessible analysis of the constitutional and democratic stakes in the current federal showdown in Minnesota, while laying bare the tactics and perils of unchecked presidential power. The conversation blends legal expertise, political strategy, and real-world historical parallels for a timely, engrossing listen.