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- [00:00]
Harry Littman
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- [00:18]
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- [00:32]
Jen Rubin
Foreign.
- [00:37]
Harry Littman
Welcome to Talking Feds, a roundtable that brings together prominent former federal officials and special guests for a dynamic discussion of the most important political and legal topics of the day. I'm Harry Littman. It's our periodic episode with colleagues drawn from the deep bench of the thriving pro democracy outlet the Contrarian. If we had thought the DOJ could go no lower than Pam Bondi had taken it, Todd Blanche quickly proved us wrong this week. Under Blanche, the department maneuvered to vacate the seditious conspiracy convictions of the worst of the worst January 6th insurrectionists, and signaled it next would move to dismiss the cases altogether. And in another blow for accountability, a 2:1 decision by a D.C. circuit panel shut down Judge Jeb Boasberg's effort to examine whether the administration knowingly disobeyed his orders when it shipped immigrants to a hellhole prison in El Salvador last year. In the Middle East, Trump's efforts to disentangle the country from the thicket he has driven us into seem to be leading toward a hasty conciliation likely to leave the US In a weaker position now and for decades to come, to discuss the DOJ's latest degradations and Trump's attempts to dig himself out of his own mess in the Middle East. I'm pleased to welcome three good friends, fantastic journalists, and, not least, contrarian mainstays. And they are Norm E. Norm Eisen, the publisher of the Contrarian and executive chair of the Democracy Defenders Fund, where he's won scores of court victories against Trump's excesses. Norm, among his many other distinguished jobs, is the former US Ambassador to the Czech Republic, and he's one of only two norms on this roundtable.
- [02:45]
Norm Eisen
Welcome, Norm either thanks for having me back.
- [02:49]
Harry Littman
Carrie Norm oh for Ornstein, a political scientist, contributing editor for the Atlantic magazine, co host of the great podcast Words Matter. He's also a prolific author, most recently of the excellent book One Nation After Trump. Normo, thanks for Joining Always Harry and Jen Rubin, the editor in chief, co founder and lifeblood of the Contrarian. Before launching the Contrarian with Norm, she wrote an opinion column for 14 years at the Washington Post. Before that, a labor lawyer and a distinguished alumna of the Boal hall class of 1986. Always a pleasure to see you here, Jen.
- [03:33]
Jen Rubin
It is great to be here, Harry.
- [03:35]
Harry Littman
Okay, I want to start with the doj. Lots happening this week, but that's my institutional bias. We are now well underway in the Blanche era. In just three weeks, he seems to have done Bondi one better or worse in several instances. Let's start with arguably the biggest outrage that is really an offense to the country and to history. The motion to vacate the convictions of the most serious the seditious conspirators in the January 6 crowd, the highest members of the proud boys and oath keepers. Trump had already commuted their sentences, but now it's as if the cold cases are going to go away. What would this mean for these felons and for the country to just have the slate wiped clean?
- [04:32]
Norm Eisen
Well, it would be the latest in what has been the least law and order presidency in our history. It commenced with a 34 time convicted felon himself, Donald Trump, for election interference and campaign shenanigans in 2016 involving hush money, pardoning well over a thousand of the most violent felons and others who assaulted the Capitol on January 6th. And what little was left of the tatters of the Trump administration, law and order claims, has been systematically wiped away by events like these latest in effect, expungements. So the American people are not stupid. They see that Donald Trump is letting his fellow criminals off and prosecuting the lawmen and women like FBI Director Jim Comey and New York AG Tish James. It is an inversion and a perversion of rule of law and law and order. And that is why he has this week Harry, surpassed Richard Nixon as the most unpopular president. I think it is minus 42, winning by a dose with his fellow crook. Yes, Richard Nixon was a crooked, so is Donald Trump.
- [06:30]
Norm Ornstein
I would add to that, Harry, that when he issued these blanket pardons for the 1500 or so, it was a little bit surprising that he only commuted the sentences of the seditious conspirators. Yeah, thought for some reason that that might be a bridge too far to pardon them completely. Now here we are more than a year later and they've decided that they can do anything they want with no blowback. So instead of doing it himself, he has his loyal servant who said when he took on the position of acting Attorney general about Trump. I love you, sir. It's a reflection of the fact that every standard, every norm of behavior when it comes to the judiciary, when it comes to justice, is out the window. And it's not just that he and his colleagues are going after the FBI director, the former intelligence director, and many others. They fired everybody in the FBI and in the Justice Department who did their duty by bringing these violent criminals to justice.
- [07:50]
Norm Eisen
And.
- [07:50]
Norm Ornstein
And the Justice Department has been hollowed out so much that if and when we're able to get back reasonable people in charge, reconstructing it is going to be a horror show and very difficult to do. So that's the world we're living in right now. And we have to believe that these seditious conspirators are soon going to be wearing law enforcement uniforms as part of ICE or CBP or God knows what other agency will have armed thugs led off by Trump. And we should add one other point, which is we're seeing more and more of the people who are pardoned, rearrested on sex crimes, going after little boys and girls. So these are the kinds of people Trump brings around him. Disgusting.
- [08:44]
Jen Rubin
I would only add that he can't do this without the court's consent, and I see no justification for this whatsoever. Presidents pardon people all the time, but you don't expunge the original underlying offense. So the courts will have the last say, and I hope they hold the line. They have clearly done their level best, particularly at the district court level in D.C. so I'm optimistic that they will not only deny this, but explain why they are denying it and perhaps use the opportunity to educate the American people.
- [09:22]
Harry Littman
Yeah. Although it's a bit of an uphill battle because this is direct appeal where they're at. So the Justice Department is able to say before it's become final, we just want to dismiss it. I second everything you guys say about all the ways that this dovetails with and is part and parcel of much broader programs of corruption and attacks on the rule of law. But I really got to feels special to me in the very bad way. Seditious conspiracy, very hard charge to prove the kind of biggest achievement in the biggest operation in GOJ history. And I think of these guys as one of maybe the five most serious offenders against the country, not just the police, not just the members of Congress, but literally against the Constitution and the core principle, peaceful transfer of power. Just absolute traitors. And so I think it's an ultimate affront to you know, democracy itself.
- [10:23]
Norm Eisen
Could I, Harry?
- [10:24]
Harry Littman
Yeah, please. That sonorous baritone would be the former ambassador to Czechoslovakia, Norm E. Please.
- [10:32]
Norm Eisen
We refer to ourselves as Norm the elder and Norm the younger, sometimes as the ethical norm. The puns are endless. I did want to interrupt when he said the norms are out the window. Say, we're sitting right here. What are you talking about, Harry? You know, it is my methodological bias, but I've been doing it now with the three of you for 15 months to say, when we talk about the crisis, let's always talk about the solutions too. And this was also a week in which John Eastman, one of the architects of the events of the 2020 post election, was disbarred. That was upheld by the California Supreme Court. I don't think the United States Supreme Court will change that. And there's a cost with the American people in that extreme unpopularity. And third, this was the week in which we see. See how those costs play out with the electoral landslide in Hungary. So I'm also here wearing my Democracy Defenders action hat, which is actually, it's our 501C4.
- [11:48]
Harry Littman
That's a big hat too.
- [11:49]
Norm Eisen
And that's a very important place to be able to talk about the consequences of this. Now, Norm, the elegant does point out the challenge of reconstruction, but there are opportunities. You know, we've gotten a little sclerotic and we may come back to this. It's a very important part of what we do at the contrarian. We are an incubator for the ideas about what a reconstruction might look like. All right. Forgive the. Pardon the interruption.
- [12:23]
Harry Littman
No, no, no, all good. Speaking of long time ago, Judge Jeb Boasberg has been doing work for over a year. Totally righteous and gutsy, I would say, to hold DOJ's feet to the fire, even as Emile Beauvais is on the Third Circuit, et cetera. But this is the actual first revelation of their lawlessness. March 15, he says, don't take these people to El Salvador, and they do it anyway. And even as other things have gone forward and had their tortuous path, he wants to get at the bottom of whether people were in contempt of court high level officials of the Department of Justice. But you had an opinion by Judge Rao within a concurring opinion that looks to shut it all down and say, just stop with the whole criminal contempt already. Let me just serve it up. Because it was a really unusual opinion, including its repeated swipes at Boasberg himself. What did you make of it? And do you think this is the full Stop. Dead end to the criminal contempt inquiry.
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Jen Rubin
This read to me as the first round of Rao's attempt to get nominated to a higher court. She is auditioning for Trump. And the language, the lack of judicial temperament, if you will, in the opinion and really the lack of any kind of sound reasoning was very, very striking. Now, she is among the worst of the worst on that circuit, which generally has some very good judges, as we know. And unfortunately, she's on a panel with Katzis, who is perhaps temperamentally, a little bit more normal, but is equally engaged in the MAGA project. I think it is not the end. And the dissent which went on for quite a bit was a very. Pages, yeah, was a very eloquent, very detailed brief, if you will, I think, for en banc reconsideration. And I think they may take it. This does not represent, I think, the circus overall view of things. This is another one of these kind of gratuitous actions. We want to be able to lie to you and defy your court action with no ramifications whatsoever. And if you try to come after us, we're going to smear you. Remember, they had raised an ethics complaint against Boasberg, which was dismissed with a cock and bull story about him raising or responding to the issue in a meeting of the Judicial Commission. But I think it speaks to, frankly, the problem we have now, which is overall, in a general matter, 80, 90% of the lower courts have behaved in an exemplary fashion. They have held the line, they have rejected Trump's actions, they have held lawyers feet to the fire when they have defied court orders. But there are Trumpian judges through and through the Eileen Cannons, the rows, who really are bad actors of them. Bovain, who is now on the appeals court in the Third Circuit. And we're going to have to live with these people for a while. I think the temptation will be to take people who are really, really bad actors and pursue some judicial remedies like recusal in future cases based upon their decisions. I wonder even now, had the special counsel tried to recuse Eileen Cannon, whether they would have succeeded in that, frankly, in Florida. But I think this is not going to be the end of it, either in this case or for these judges who have so polluted the judiciary and have really stuck out as the exception rather than the rule, frankly, in the lower court's actions.
- [16:47]
Norm Ornstein
I want to add a couple of things. One is, I'm so frustrated by the media coverage in general of these cases. They all say DC Circuit, instead of noting that it was a three Drudge panel and who was on the panel, because that tells you everything you need to know. I had to go through a lot of hoops to figure out knowing before I saw anything that Rao was going to be one of them, knowing that it was going to be a 2 to 1 decision and frustration that the D.C. circuit seems to end up over and over again with these biased panels. But the second point, which I think is even more chilling than what Jen said, when you look at this, Boasberg was defied by the administration with serious consequences for real people. And they lied to him over and over again. And he moved in a deliberate fashion to look at whether criminal contempt charges should be brought, which is something that should have been, that should be done by a lot of judges in a lot of places because they're being defied and lied to repeatedly by lawyers who should be disbarred, but also by other administration actors. This is a fundamental question of whether the judiciary has any meaning whatsoever. And that you would have judges on an appeals court who've taken an oath of office not to the president, but to the Constitution, undermining the authority of judges, undermining the authority of the whole justice system is outrageous beyond belief. And you look at that opinion, there is nothing in it except a bunch of nonsense to try and suck up to the president for their own purposes. They're partisan hacks and they're worse than that. They're undermining the fundamentals of the Constitution.
- [18:47]
Harry Littman
It is true that you first think, oh, who was on that panel? Which is a sad state of affairs. And I do want to add a couple points about Rao. I'm very reticent and reluctant to go to the, you know, it's all an addition for Trump. But look, I'm sorry, by the way, in addition, this week she also had a dissent saying that Trump has full power to go ahead and build the ballroom whatever he wants. But in this case, let me just state a fact that everybody in D.C. knows Boasberg is a extremely solid respected on both sides of the aisle room with Brett Kavanaugh in law school, chief judge in a normal setting. Even if the court of appeals was striking out at like a improper judge, they would say the learned district court below failed to see this is a total solid judge. And you're right, Norm, they've tried every little stratagem to oh, just forget about it Boasberg. And he won't. And it's really important that he not. And her rhetoric there over a dozen just nasty kicks to the groin that she administers. I think that's actually one thing that might make it more likely to have en banc treatment because the en banc would actually vacate that opinion and would no more be in the US Reports. But there is just no way, I think, to account for that nasty series of slights other than pick me, pick me. If Thomas and Alito retire, Congress has
- [20:21]
Norm Eisen
so abysmally felt failed over and over again and the Senate and, and, and the other institutions. Jen, remember when the Washington Post endorsed Pam Bondi, they gave her the green light on Trump's cabinet and you know, she turned out what Cruella Deville is to pets. She was to the rule of law. And Jen said, norm, thank goodness I left that place because I would have had to quit over this. So the institutions will be tested. I think it is very likely. At least we're going to get an Alito replacement this summer. He's going to finish the term. He's not happy. His wife chatter around Washington has it is truly miserable and they want to check out. My guess is Clarence Thomas. No, he won't be able to afford the upkeep on his motorhome. But Alito wants to go. And so we told them with Bondi, with Cash Patel, with Todd Blanche, we warned. But a Supreme Court, if you put in a cannon, a Bove a row, you put that on the Supreme Court and it will be a time, win or lose, to stand and peacefully, lawfully, vigorously fight. And it will be a test for our country. And we'll be putting down a marker, including for the future term limits and other Supreme Court reform that are so important. And we must use this not just as a negative critique of Bove or Cannon or whomever it is. I think it's more likely to be somebody like Rao or Jim Ho who has some surface plausibility. Although I take the strongest of exceptions to this group of jurists, we must also use it as an opportunity to talk affirmatively about Supreme Court reform and the kind of reconstruction activities that Norm the elder and Wiser was referring to more broadly in our democracy.
- [22:33]
Jen Rubin
I'm a little bit more optimistic if there's optimism here that Alito is going to hang around. First of all, these people are deluded and they think they're going to control government forever. And secondly, that would be admitting he was beaten. He was beaten by the liberals that he hates. The elite have forced him from office. And I think there is something to be said for his willingness to continually stick his finger in the eye A man who is on the Supreme Court has never been so dissatisfied and so angry. The man is the Supreme Court justice. He doesn't seem to enjoy it. But we can speculate till the cows come home. We're gonna find out in a month or so.
- [23:15]
Harry Littman
I was just gonna say we ought to know in about 10 weeks or so that it will be the end of the term. But it really does seem that he is not a happy camper in the job. I wanna say he really. There was a really good profile of him in the Atlantic not long ago. He was not this kind of mad, grieving, nasty jurist when he was on the Third Circuit, you know, and people on both sides of the aisle respect him. Something really happened maybe about the time of that State of the Union.
- [23:44]
Norm Ornstein
Last week, the Supreme Court reversed a
- [23:46]
Norm Eisen
century of law that I believe will open the floodgates for special interests, including foreign corporations, to spend without limit in our elections. Washington will do that to you. I keep a hamburger handy since I'm a scion of the hamburger stand. So I will bet Jen a hamburger. This is soy cheese. I will bet Jen a hamburger that Alito is gone this summer. That's point 1 and point 2. That was the line in that State of the Union speech that so enraged him, was written by yours truly. I had about a quarter of that from first speech.
- [24:29]
Harry Littman
Yeah.
- [24:30]
Norm Eisen
And I got a call from Rahm right after.
- [24:35]
Harry Littman
That would be Rahm Emanuel, everyone.
- [24:37]
Norm Eisen
And I thought, oh, my God. Oh, my God, I fucked up. I fucked up. And Rahm called me. Norm, pour it on. This is great. Pour it on. Like, he wanted me to call every reporter. Because of course it was true that the floodgates were thrown open by the Citizens United decision. And it was a good issue for us and a good fight to pick. I do think that Justice Alitu, who, I must say in recent Supreme Court arguments that I've attended, has actually been very fair in tough questioning of the Solicitor General, John Sauer. I just think that. That, you know, politics, another great ramism. If you don't like politics, don't go into politics. I think he and his wife have tired of Washington.
- [25:27]
Norm Ornstein
But there's a broader point to make here, which is, let's say that everything goes well. We have an experience like Hungary in 2028, we get a sweep. Unlike Hungary, they don't change the government overnight. We are going to have a period from early November till late January where they're still in charge. And I will bet you that if Alito or Thomas are still around at that point. They will go during that interregnum and be jam. They will jam through replacements.
- [26:04]
Norm Eisen
They will, you're assuming a Democratic minority in the Senate.
- [26:10]
Harry Littman
I'm pulling moderators rank here though, because there's so much right here. And now, quick biographical detail. As norm, he just revealed the really humble virtuous roots that led to his remarkable career. He flipped burgers as a boy in la. Longer story there. Hey everyone, Harry here. You know, I don't do many ads, but I made an exception a while back for Quint's Clothing. And I'm here to tell you I'm still wearing my Quince organic cotton crew neck sweater all the time. And it and the Quince Comfort Stretch Traveler five pocket pants are the first things I reach for when I'm packing a suitcase. They're durable, they fit great, they look good and they are inexpensive to boot. It's been a major addition to my closet and and now that it's getting warmer, I'm really looking forward to checking out the Quince Pima cotton T shirts. Refresh your wardrobe@quint.com TalkingFeds for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Quints.com TalkingFeds talk to you later. I really like your point, Norman. All three of you have made it that we should. There are silver linings and they abound. And I'd like to talk about a good development in the justice system, not involving the doj exactly. But this week just the state and county prosecutors in Minnesota brought assault charges against an ICE agent who basically pulls up, he's in an unmarked car and just points a gun and jawbones for six seconds. Passengers who had had the nerve to sort of, you know, move a little over as, as he's trying to careen past them for no reason at all. He's not doing any kind of official thing. He's at the end of his shift. What do you think? Smart opening move here, because it has to be, the prosecutor said expressly, in fact, and I've got a big substack on this today. It was connected to a sort of opening foray or dress rehearsal of potential prosecutions of the shooters of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode.
- [28:41]
Norm Ornstein
I was very happy with this and it's actually, I would say it's about time. We have seen so many lawless, sadistic acts by agents more border patrol than ice, but both. And to bring charges against these miscreants is extremely important. And that's not the only one. We also had this HMONG man, a citizen where his home was broken into without a warrant, dragged out in freezing cold in his underwear, thrown into a car, driven around for a long time before being brought back. And they're being charged with kidnapping, which is appropriate under these circumstances and more. We're now in the middle of a very long presumed shutdown of the Department of Homeland Security. Parts of it which hasn't meant very much because they got so much money in their big, beautiful disgraceful bill that they're still able to pay for this stuff. And that'll continue for a while. It's being shut down because they refuse in this administration to agree to any reasonable reforms that would make ICE and the Border Patrol like other law enforcement agencies. And to have members of Congress, the House and Senate say it's impractical to get a warrant every time we want to go in. It's like it's impractical that we have a constitution is in effect what they're saying. Democrats in the Congress, to their credit, have held their ground on this one, but we're not gonna get it out of this administration. And so the only way we're gonna get any changes is by courageous prosecutors in states. And it's happening in my native Minnesota, holding these criminals feet to the fire.
- [30:44]
Norm Eisen
I'm not sure if I can top that. You know, Minnesota outrage. That was not what we call Minnesota. Nice. I do think that accountability is a long haul. We need to think as a society about where do we draw that line. You know, so many other societies coming out of these moments have had to grapple with these questions. I think the line is drawn at the line of criminality. We also think about this is the bigger challenge. I disagree with Norm Ornstein on the policy reconstruction. I think we may be able to do quite a bit if we have the political will. If starting with I'm an authority on these personnel and ethics laws. And I think we will need to address some of these unethical actors in government, the lawyers who've authorized these boats strikes, for example. But we also have to think about how we do reconciliation and who falls below that line. I wrote a whole book. I won't. I happen to have it on the shelf behind me. It's not a what you'd call a page turner, but it's about the mistakes that were made in the Czechoslovak reconstruction, the so called lustration process. You really have to get both truth and consequences, but also reconciliation. Right. And it's not too soon to think about that because there will be defectors from the regime. I thought it was so amazing that Peter Mungyar went to the Orban power base, the presidential palace. He said, the president is unfit. You must leave. And those state owned tv, he said, you've refused to have me on here. Cover me. The first thing I'll do is shut down this station. That's democracy. Hardball. To be honest, I think we should have done more of that in 2021 and beyond. Everyone on this screen favored it. Those in power did not.
- [32:54]
Harry Littman
All right, let me push through. I do want to add one to Norm's view. If the Dems take the House in the midterms, a subject of investigation, who in Homeland Security wrote that memo saying, oh yeah, you don't need a warrant to bust into somebody's house. But three weeks in I have a substack saying, you know, meet the new boss, worse than the old boss. What's your assessment now of Blanche, including, does he have any shot at being nominated and confirmed to the permanent position?
- [33:28]
Jen Rubin
He is clearly as bad, if not worse than Bondi. After all, the Epstein files and the violation of the explicit statute that Congress passed and the President signed is as much hidden as it was her. He was the one who sat with Maxwell and gave that softball interview when she continued to lie about him. He is the one who said there are no more documents to release, by the way, a very odd formulation, not saying there are no more documents, simply saying we're not going to release any more documents. He clearly is as bad a toady as she was, for goodness sakes. He was the lawyer for Donald Trump in his criminal trials and he is a facilitator, I think, very much so, that Donald Trump would be very delighted to have him. The only question is whether they want to have him be grilled in front of the Senate on Epstein and whether they think there is a downside to that happening. I think there is a slight concern perhaps among the Senate that they don't want to be presented with that. And they may choose someone out of right field rather than left field, like Lee Zeldin, who is a climate change denier and another loyal toady. And like Mark Wayne, Mullen has this patina of calm. He doesn't come across as this frothing at the mouth lunatic the way others do. So he may choose to go that route rather than to go the route of pushing Blanche through. It won't be for lack of trying, frankly. And Blanche is one of those people when truth and reconciliation come, truth, no reconciliation, or all good.
- [35:20]
Harry Littman
And I think he earned Special contempt from DOJ alums because he was an ausa. He knows the system. He's traveling. Okay, let's turn to the war with Iran, where, as we tape on Friday afternoon, the latest development is a ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon, which extends in practice supposedly to Hezbollah. Iran had demanded that truce as a condition for further talk, and a top Israeli official told Axios that Trump pushed it through. It's holding. So far, the US Seems to be making some diplomatic progress after weeks of fecklessness and no real direction. Are we on a real path to peace or the end of hostilities there?
- [36:03]
Norm Eisen
Oh, for God's sake.
- [36:05]
Jen Rubin
I think we're on the road to capitulation.
- [36:08]
Norm Eisen
It's some worse fiasco. Donald Trump has empowered the Iranians. He's alienated his own base, Harry. He's even lost his base. You know how Obama used to joke, like at the Correspondents dinner? Oh, I'm here with my base. His base are the anti Semites, Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens and Alex Jones. He's even lost the crazy MAGA people. It's an absolute fiasco. Whatever the final deal is, the Iranian regime will actually be more entrenched. And as he squandered our capital, our blood, over a dozen American soldiers, many more casualties, hundreds of innocent people, school children murdered in the regions, he's unleashed the equally authoritarian Netanyahu. At least the Israelis are quite questioning Netanyahu's mad gambit. It's done damage to the American reputation that will take decades to recover. And he's depleted our weapons supplies. I mean, if we need. If there's a conflict elsewhere and we need these armaments, they have been drawn down. Our deficit has been exploded. It's a distraction from what he should be doing, lowering the cost of living for American people. It has the opposite effect. It's driven the cost of living crisis to an emergency. It's the worst. It makes Vietnam look like Normandy.
- [37:53]
Jen Rubin
I have to say that I'm working on a piece on this for next week. What has been very underreported and under discussed is how much China has benefited from this great point, as Trump has been alienating everyone, including Maloney, who used to be his best pal in Europe. Their Italian deputy Prime minister was in China this week, and you should have seen the bear hug the Chinese gave him. They are swooping in at every opportunity. Mark my words, they will be there to lead the reconstruction of the Middle East. We have already seen diplomatic cables. The degree to which we have alienated Bahrain, Azerbaijan, Indonesia, who is standing in the wings to make hay out of that. The Chinese, who is selling solar panels and EV throughout the region because we have had a self inflicted wound from Donald Trump, the Chinese, he has given China more influence in that region than they ever had. And at the same time, not only have we used up munitions, we've pulled ships and material out of the Far East. So our allies there are sitting there exposed, unprotected from China. Now they are literally going to our allies saying, do you have a choice between those crazy Americans or us, the reasonable, stable Chinese? And they are going to make out of this for a decade. This is the largest transfer of power voluntarily by the US to an enemy I think in history. And mark my words, the China angle will come back to haunt us for decades.
- [39:43]
Norm Ornstein
I want to make a few additional points. You know, back in early 2017, I wrote a piece in the Atlantic called American Kakistocracy, bringing up a word that had gone into disuse for government by the worst and most incompetent and most venal among us that literally comes.
- [40:01]
Harry Littman
I'm so glad you did, by the way. What a great word it's been that we've all taken from you.
- [40:05]
Norm Ornstein
And it's, you know, the root is caca. So take that. Here's what we know from the Omanis. Oman was the intermediary in the early talks, before we bombed this second time. And the deal that Iran put on the table was an amazingly good one from our perspective. And we put in charge of our negotiations two of the biggest grifters and most incompetent people to negotiate, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, who either didn't understand the terms of the deal because they didn't have anybody around them who knew anything or what might even be a little bit worse. They came back and said to Trump, you know, this is a good deal. And he called Bibi Netanyahu and Bibi said, no, we've got to go in. This is another Venezuela. You are the best ever. Look what you did. You can get rid of the leadership. We can target the Ayatollah. We have all kinds of ties to the dissidents. They will rise up, change the regime, and you will get your Nobel Peace Prize for real. And either way, we went in and blew up that deal. Now the Iranians have the upper hand, but with one caveat. Their economy is in shambles and it's getting worse. They will, I think, come back to Trump, who wants a deal. You know, he's never read the art of the Deal. Much less written it. But he thinks he's the best dealmaker in the history of the world. He wants a deal where he can declare victory. They're going to put something on the table that says we will say no enrichment for 10 years. Now they said five. We wanted 20. They'll say 10, as long as you relieve the sanctions. And my bet is Trump takes that deal and Bibi Netanyahu will be left high and dry because not only will he have something worse than the jcpoa, the deal negotiated by the Obama administration, but if you let their economy recover, the money that they get goes right to Hezbollah and Hamas and the Houthis. And it is the nightmare for Bibi Netanyahu and how he handles that is another twist in this that we have to keep in mind. And one last point, which is following on the kakistocracy. We've gone in here and we're using multimillion dollar missiles to shoot down thousand dollar drones. We have turned down Zelenskyy's offer to use their inexpensive technology. And Pete Hegseth is destroying, not just destroying our military by hollowing out the best commanders because they're women or they're black or they've said something he doesn't like or he doesn't trust them to do whatever Trump wants them to do. These people are so disgraceful, it's beyond belief. And the Chinese love every minute of it, as does Putin.
- [43:23]
Harry Littman
All three of you really raise the long term implications of what we're doing geopolitically. There's a great piece again in the Atlantic by Bob Kagan laying out. We're going to look at this one day as a sort of Akin to 1989, but in a very bad way for the US the potential for long term shifting in a way that weakens the United States is really dramatic. I think.
- [43:47]
Jen Rubin
I think when we look back on this, it is not only that we have voluntarily given up the things that have made us great and opened the door for China, but that we really have ruined America's reputation. And this talk of war crimes, the way we have conducted ourselves, the crusade language that is going to stick to us like a really bad odor for a very long time and we will miss it when it's gone, our reputation. So this will have very long term implications. And I fear that Norm oh is exactly right, that when we look back on this, we will have not only worsened our diplomatic standing, but our military standing as well.
- [44:38]
Norm Eisen
It's a fiasco of world historic proportions. Actually, the whole Trump administration. I think it will be in the history books next to Nero. And the only other thing I'll say, don't be hopeless, because there can be a day after these fiascos, and sometimes when it is so bad, you get a reset. And I'll give you one example. The Europeans have been much too dependent on the United States. And when I was ambassador, I urged the Europeans, both the Czechs and then I would, you know, speak around the continent. You've got to meet your 2.5% of GDP. Now it's been bumped up to 5% target for defense spending. Well, guess what? The utter fecklessness and incompetence and betrayal of Trump has been a. An extremely effective incentive for the Europeans to start doing that. And it is safer for democracy to live autonomously on both sides of the Atlantic in case one side or the other should stumble. So, you know, there's no sugarcoating it. This is a fucking fiasco for America, for our reputation, our interests, our allies and our values and the structure that we have built, first fitfully after the end of World War I, and then more enduringly after the end of World War II. It is an utter fiasco. But now we are going to have to do what we can to pick up the pieces. And we can and we will.
- [46:37]
Harry Littman
All right, it is now time for a spirited debate brought to you by our sponsor, Total Wine and more. Each episode, you'll be hearing an expert talk about the pros and cons of a particular issue in the world of wine, spirit and beverages.
- [46:55]
Mint Mobile Advertiser
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- [48:37]
Harry Littman
Thanks to our friends at Total Wine and More for today's a spirited debate. Maybe we move to the absent force in so much of this. And Norm Ornstein, as always, I'm very glad you're here as our expert on Congress. You know the Dems nearly succeeded in bringing a war powers resolution to the floor. Failed by one vote with a main Democrat joining the R's. They sound to me do the Republicans pretty nervous about their chances should the measure come up again in another couple weeks. Is this kind of like Epstein, a situation in which you could find Congress actually asserting its and enough peeling away from Trump's coalition to make a difference if Trump tries to get things going again?
- [49:32]
Norm Ornstein
It could. I would never presume to believe that Congress will do the right thing and you know, they can force a vote under the War Powers Act. But Harry, let's face it. The reality is the War Powers act on paper is powerful, in reality has never been meaningful. You have a 60 day deadline. Almost inevitably when the deadline's been reached, it's a president saying, okay, you want to leave our troops in the field vulnerable, and so they blink. But you know, you can do this legislatively, you could do it constitutionally with the power to declare war, which is of course a feeble one as it's been used in the past. You can do it through the power of the purse, but they don't have control of the power of the purse, the Democrats, and they don't have Republicans to go along with them. You can do it through oversight and through debate. And what I'd love to see is a primetime debate in the Senate where you actually really do have a debate about the nature of this war and what would be the right kinds of outcomes. Unlikely to happen. The Democrats can do hearings, they can go around the country, and I'd love at this point to see them go out to Silicon Valley because the lack of helium from the strait being shut down is having A huge impact on chips. Go into Iowa and Nebraska and Maine where you have farmers destroyed during planning season by the price of fertilizer. In Maine, the price of diesel fuel is such that the fishermen cannot possibly even go out to get their fish. Make the case to the American people as to why this is harming them for no good reason. But other than that, I just do not expect much out of Congress unless this gets so much worse or unless he does send in ground troops and Netanyahu is going to be pushing him hard to send in troops to grab that uranium. And I doubt he'll go along. But if he did, then I think you get a War Powers resolution saying no pull out of there because it would be catastrophic.
- [51:45]
Jen Rubin
Just a few quick points. One, we need a different kind of War Powers act, one that reverses the process that says in 10 or 15 days if you don't have a vote for Congress, the funds are cut off, you must withdraw the troops. Number two, we are going to see the Tom Cottons and the Ted Cruz's who berated Donald Trump applaud like wild for a worse steal than Obama got by far. So the hypocrisy is going to be off the chart. Third, Donald Trump is desperate to end this war in part because he doesn't want that to happen. He doesn't want Congress to finally have to pull the plug. He wants this over and he will settle on the worst possible terms as quickly as he can to avoid that. Last point, I interviewed Chris Murphy the other day. They have not had one hearing with any member of the national security team since this war started. Not Hegseth, not Rubio, not Dni, Tulsi, Gabbard. Do you remember how many hearings they had during the Iraq war with the most senior officials so they could have oversight? This is an utter disgrace that they won't even have a hearing with the Secretary of Defense during this fiasco. My goodness. I certainly hope that Democrats make this point in the midterm elections that if you want anyone to actually do their job, you better have somebody with a D after their name because these guys have no interest in doing their job.
- [53:24]
Harry Littman
And I'll just say, picking up on both those points, Jen mentioned the Iraq war. The Iraq war when it started was fairly popular. This is a historically unpopular war. But people's votes then they made and broke political reputations going forward. And if there's the kind of inquiry, Norm O that you actually described, you're going to have ours running scared and running for the hills because you know it's going to be with an already unpopular war. If they have to actually state their case and stake out a position, we're going to see. Really. I think Rabbit like behavior. Man oh man, Always so great to have a Contrarian episode. We are out of time except for five words or fewer and here's our question this week. It's been quite a week with we didn't have time to talk about Trump and the picture and the church and the Pope. But our five words are fewer gets into it a little because this week JD Vance, convert to Catholicism, told the Pope to be careful when speaking about theology. Trump depicted himself as Jesus and Hegseth got creative with Scripture, confusing Samuel Jackson with the disciples. What do you see as this administration's next theological innovation? Five words or fewer.
- [54:49]
Norm Eisen
Ham and shellfish are kosher.
- [54:57]
Harry Littman
There you go.
- [54:58]
Jen Rubin
To borrow a phrase, they never expected the Inquisition. I'll have another Inquisition.
- [55:06]
Harry Littman
There you go. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. There you go, Norm.
- [55:11]
Norm Ornstein
Renaming Mar a Lago, Sodom and Gomorrah.
- [55:16]
Harry Littman
Okay, and I'm going with Heaven, a Trump Organization property Foreign thank you so much, Norm Eisen, Norm Ornstein, and Jen Rubin. And thank you very much, listeners for tuning in to Talking Feds. If you like what you've heard, please tell a friend to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever they get their podcasts. And please take a moment to rate and review the show. Check us out on Substack at harrylette, where I'll be posting two or three bulletins a week breaking down the various threats to constitutional norms and the rule of law. Paid Substack subscribers can now get Talking Feds episodes completely ad free. You can also subscribe to us on YouTube, where we are posting full episodes and my daily takes on top legal stories. Talking Feds has joined forces with the contrarian I'm a founding contributor to this bold new media venture committed to reviving the diversity of opinion that feels increasingly rare in today's news landscape, where legacy media seems to be tacking toward Trump for business reasons rather than editorial ones. Find out more@Contrarian substack.com thanks for tuning in. And don't worry, as long as you need answers, the feds will keep talking. Talking Feds is produced by Lou Cregan and Katie Upshaw, associate producer Becca Haveian, sound Engineering by Matt McArdle, Rosie Dawn Griffin, David Lieberman, Hansama Hadranathan, Emma Maynard and Hallie Necker are our contributing writers and production. Production assistance by Akshaj Turbailu Our music as Ever is by the Amazing Philip Glass. Talking Feds is a production of Deledo, llc. I'm Harry Littman. Talk to you later.