In this episode of Talking Tokens, Jacquelyn Melinek speaks with Matt Luongo, co-founder of Mezo, and Arthur Hayes, CIO of Maelstrom and co-founder of BitMEX, about why they see bitcoin as the best collateral ever created and what it means to build a financial system on top of it. Matt explains how Mezo is rebuilding banking on bitcoin by letting holders borrow against their BTC rather than spend it, and why the lending market that blew up last cycle is now being rebuilt onchain with better infrastructure. Arthur shares why he treats bitcoin purely as a liquidity barometer, why governments will always choose to print rather than accept consequences, and why that makes bitcoin the only rational long-term savings asset.

The two walk through what sustainable bitcoin yield actually looks like versus the token-printing schemes that failed in the last cycle and how institutions holding bitcoin on their balance sheet are deploying it. The conversation also covers Arthur's personal philosophy on leverage, Matt's experience financing his house with bitcoin, and why both guests believe people shouldn’t sell your BTC, just borrow against it.

Arthur Hayes:

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/cryptohayes/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthur-hayes-b493b42/

Substack - https://cryptohayes.substack.com/

Web: https://www.cryptohayes.com

X - https://x.com/cryptohayes

Maelstrom Fund:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/maelstromfund

Web - https://www.maelstrom.fund

X - https://x.com/maelstromfund

TIMESTAMPS

(00:00) Intro
(01:37) Why Matt built Mezo and what drew Arthur in with his big picture thesis
(02:23) Arthur on Maelstrom, his family office, and why bitcoin needs to be useful
(03:16) The state of bitcoin in 2026
(05:57) Bitcoin as a liquidity alarm: why it rises and falls with global money printing
(08:47) Governments choosing bailouts over consequences, and how bitcoin can win
(15:04) How to think about risk before going max long bitcoin
(20:39) What macro patterns Arthur and Matt actually track
(23:41) What sustainable bitcoin yield looks like versus token-printing schemes
(25:24) Why a lot of bitcoin holders have never had access to standard DeFi
(32:36) How institutions with BTC on their balance sheet are thinking about yield today
(34:26) Why every DeFi exploit sets institutional adoption back and what changes that
(37:03) Bitcoin as collateral: what it actually unlocks for holders
(38:25) How Matt and Arthur each got into crypto
(44:41) Is it too late to buy bitcoin? The conversations people are actually having now
(45:55) Market outlook and price predictions

ESSENTIALS

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Note: This podcast is for informational purposes only. Views shared are opinions, not financial advice. The host or guests may have financial interests in discussed content.