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- [00:00]
Tony
G'day America. It's Tony and Ryan from the Tony.
- [00:03]
Ryan
And Ryan Podcast from Down Under. This episode is sponsored by Boost Mobile.
- [00:07]
Tony
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Isaac Saul
These guys are no longer the prepaid wireless company you might remember. They've invested billions into building their own 5G towers across America, transforming the carrier into America's fourth major network alongside the other big dogs.
- [00:24]
Ryan
Yep, they're challenging the competitors by working.
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Tony
Harder and smarter, like this amazing new.
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Ryan
Network they've literally built. They have blazing fast 5G and plans.
- [00:34]
Isaac Saul
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- [01:41]
Ryan
This is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host Isaac Saul. Today is March 11th, Tuesday. I'm here in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It's a beautiful spring day. The birds are chirping. Feels like some warmth coming our way. And while it's nice outside, we've got kind of a dark story to report on. Today. We're going to be talking about the deportation, potentially of a Columbia student, at least the detention of a Columbia student, as well as Trump's threats to pull funding from Columbia University. We're going to break down exactly what happened and of course share some views from the left and the right. And then my take with that I'm going to send it over to our producer John Lal, who will explain the story and break down some views from the left and the right and then you'll get my take.
- [02:52]
Tony
Thanks Isaac and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, Ontario, Canada's most populous province, imposed a 25% surcharge on all its electricity exports to the United States in retaliation for the Trump administration's threatened tariffs on Canada. Separately, China began imposing retaliatory tariffs of 10 to 15% on U.S. agricultural products. Number two, Secretary of State Marco Rubio announced that 83% of U.S. agency for International Development programs will be cut and said that the State Department would administer the remaining programs. Separately, Rubio is meeting with Ukrainian officials in Saudi Arabia on Tuesday to discuss potential concessions to end the war with Russia. Number three, the S&P 500 hit its lowest level since September 2024, the NASDAQ had its sharpest one day decline since September 2022, and the Dow Jones Industrial Average dropped 2% amid investors concerns about a potential U.S. recession. Number four, the Senate voted 6732 to confirm former Representative Laurie Chavez de Remmer, the Republican from Oregon, as secretary of the Department of Labor. At number five, a Portuguese cargo ship struck a US Tanker off the coast of England, causing multiple explosions and setting both vessels on fire. One crew member from the cargo ship is reportedly missing.
- [04:26]
Isaac Saul
Tonight, a Palestinian activist who helped lead the protest at Columbia University is in ICE custody, Mahmoud Khalil's attorney saying in a statement that he was wrongfully arrested by immigration agents claiming his student visa was revoked even though Mahmoud is a legal permanent resident and not in the US On a student visa.
- [04:49]
Tony
On Friday, the Trump administration announced it will cut $400 million in federal funding to Columbia University in New York City for allegedly failing to protect Jewish students from harassment. Additionally, the administration has directed the Departments of Education, justice and Health and Human Services to form a federal task force to combat antisemitism and investigate participants in pro Palestinian protests on campuses last year. On Saturday, Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents arrested Mahmoud Khalil, a recent Columbia graduate student and US Resident from Palestine, on State Department orders to revoke Khalil's student visa. When ICE discovered through his attorney that Khalil had a green card, they told him they would revoke that instead. Khalil has not been formally accused of a crime. For context, Colombia was the site of large scale protests throughout the Spring 2024 semester following Hamas, October 7th attack on Israel and the ensuing war in Gaza. While protests took place across the country, Colombia's campus was a flashpoint for student activism, with protesters occupying buildings, disrupting classes and clashing with police. In August 2024, university president Manouch Shafiq resigned, citing a period of turmoil where it has been difficult to overcome divergent views across our community. During his 2024 presidential campaign, then candidate Donald Trump called for a heightened police response to university protests in response to the cuts and a warning from the US General Services Administration that the university could lose up to $5 billion in Columbia's interim president Katrina Armstrong said the university takes the cuts very seriously and is open to working with the government on its legitimate concerns. Armstrong added that Columbia's disciplinary process previously only existed on paper and vowed to acknowledge and repair the damage to our Jewish students who were targeted, harassed and made to feel unsafe or unwelcome on our campus. Last spring, following Kalil's arrest, President Donald Trump said ICE acted in accordance with his recent executive order on combating anti antisemitism, writing on Truth Social this is the first arrest of many to come. Secretary of State Marco Rubio suggested that Khalil would have his green card revoked and face deportation. Khalil's attorney and wife were unable to locate him the day after his arrest. On Monday, ICE said that he had been moved to a detention facility in Louisiana. Some groups, including the New York Civil Liberties Union, said Khalil's arrest violated free speech protections and overstepped the president's legal authority on immigration matters. On Monday, a federal judge in Manhattan blocked Khalil's deportation and scheduled a hearing on his case for Wednesday. Today we'll explore the federal government's recent actions at Columbia University with views from the left and the right, and then Isaac's take.
- [07:52]
Ryan
We'll be right back after this quick break. Hi folks, it's Mark from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. As the weather gets warmer, it's time for lighter meals and Whole Foods Market has just what you're looking for with great everyday prices. Look for the yellow low price signs that help you save money without compromising the quality you expect. Nothing, absolutely nothing in the store has any high fructose corn syrup, for example. Just shop with confidence, Save on the best of Spring with great everyday prices at Whole Foods Market.
- [08:30]
Isaac Saul
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- [09:29]
Tony
All right, first up, let's start with what the Left is saying. The left denounces Khalil's arrest, calling it blatantly illegal. Many say the funding cuts are similarly unlawful and will have a chilling effect on colleges. Others say the moves are part of an effort to dismantle higher education. In the Intercept, Natasha Leonard said if Trump can deport Mahmoud Khalil, freedom of speech is dead. There is no going back from this point. President Donald Trump's administration is trying to deport a man solely for his First Amendment protected activity without due process. By all existing legal standards, this is illegal and unconstitutional, a violation of First Amendment protections and the Fifth Amendment protected right to due process, leonard wrote. If Khalil's green card is revoked and he is deported, no one can have any confidence in legal and constitutional protections. As a line of defense against arbitrary state violence and punishment, Khalil's arrest marks an extraordinary fascist escalation. Some of the only activity not protected by the First Amendment in this regard is material support for a group designated as a foreign terrorist organization by the government. What counts as material support has a strict legal standard. Even expressing support or sympathy for a foreign terrorist organization is not included in that standard, leonard said. Khalil has not been charged with material support for terrorism nor any other crime under law. Green cards cannot be summarily revoked. Grounds for removal require criminal convictions for specific crimes, including assault or theft, or proof of visa fraud. In Bloomberg, Noah Feldman argued cutting Columbia's aid over alleged antisemitism is illegal. Federal law and regulations say the government can't terminate these grants or contracts for violation of the anti discrimination law unless a court has found that it has done so after a hearing at which the university has the right to defend itself, feldman wrote. The announced action fits a pattern the Trump administration has been following since it came into office. It declares it's doing things it can't do legally and doesn't worry about the consequences. At some point, a university, whether Columbia or the next one Trump targets, will challenge the action in court and will win. By then, however, the damage will already be done as universities that depend on federal funding inevitably try to figure out what they can do to avoid the disaster of losing the money that enables their basic functions, feldman said. A court faced with the Colombia situation, or one like it is extremely likely to rule the administration's actions unlawful and order them reversed. That's what happened with essentially all of the Trump administration's unlawful actions thus far. In Inside Higher Education, Brian Rosenberg wrote about the attempt to destroy Columbia. Like most announcements coming from the administration, this one was vague, probably unlawful, and ominously threatening, hinting at further, even larger reductions in funding to follow. Cuts of the magnitude hinted at in the announcement would at least cripple the university and potentially render it unable to operate in anything like its current form, Rosenberg said. Any attempt to make sense of the Trump administration's javert like pursuit of Colombia needs to begin with the recognition that it is not in any real sense about Colombia. Neither is it about antisemitism or free speech. It is not even at its roots about education. It is rather about the exercise of raw power to intimidate, enforce obedience and silence dissent. This is how authoritarian regimes work, and as a template for the federal government's approach to journalism, business and pretty much every sphere of life, it should matter even to those who are indifferent to the fate of Columbia or higher education, rosenberg wrote. Other institutions and organizations inside and outside higher education might want to think carefully about their stance of self protective silence in the face of a government that covets the unchecked power of authoritarianism. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right mostly supports Khalil's arrest, arguing that his actions merited deportation. Some say the funding cuts are a necessary check on colleges that have strayed from their purpose. Others say the cuts are defensible. But Khalil's arrest seems illegal. The New York Post editorial board said Team Trump's crackdown on campus hate is a defense of decency and a push against perverted privilege. With the reported arrest and likely deportation of Mahmoud Khalil, a noncitizen ringleader of anti Semitic protests at Columbia and Barnard, ICE has put fresh teeth on President Donald Trump's crackdown on campus hate, the board wrote. This movement was never merely about protest. Ever since Hamas's October 7, 2023 terror attacks, it has sought to intimidate America with passion and force, occupying campus quads, blockading or rampaging through libraries, harassing and assaulting visible Jews. Nor is it truly a student movement, as arrest records show. Even actions on campus include gobs of older career radicals. Yet far too many campus authorities have done as little as possible to stop it, hiding behind free speech concerns that plainly don't cover this behavior. Now, the Trump administration has begun to hold academia to account for its failings as well as acting directly against those like Mahmoud Khalil who abuse America's welcome to foster violent hate, the board said. This is both a defense of decency and a push against the pervasion of privilege, and we look forward to seeing a lot more of it In Fox News, rtiku Singh wrote. As a Columbia alum, I support President Trump's move to pull federal funds President Donald Trump's decision to cancel $400 million in federal grants from Columbia University for its culture of anti Semitism should be a moment of self reflection for leftists and liberals worldwide, singh said. As a student at Columbia in the late 2000s, it was evident to me that many academics and student groups sympathized more with the perpetrators of terror than the victims. In 2007, they hosted then Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, not Iranian women subjected to enforced hijab. The next year, they were silent when militants trained in Pakistan attacked India on November 26, 2008. Though the signs were there, I never imagined the leftist Islamist nexus at Columbia would push the campus into a spiral of violence reminiscent of developing countries. I never thought Ivy League campuses would exhibit scenes of violent threats by Islamists, singh wrote. President Donald Trump's decision to cancel $400 million in federal funding to Colombia is a good start. Next, his government must prosecute individuals and organizations involved in weaponizing anti Semitic sentiments. In the Washington Examiner, Tom Rogan explored protecting Jewish civil rights and the First Amendment. At Columbia, where Jewish students were targeted with threats of anti Semitic violence or willful intimidation, any students engaged who are responsible should face swift sanction from the college in question. Too few students have been expelled for such activity, Rogin said. Where colleges fail to protect civil rights, the suspension of federal grants is reasonable recourse. Still, it is concerning and un American for the federal government to deport students or otherwise seek to intimidate American students into silence simply because they offer pro Palestinian or anti Israeli sentiments. Both things are happening at Columbia University. It's one thing to strip financial aid in response to an institution's failure to protect civil rights. It's a very different thing to arrest students simply because they have said things that the government of the day and its supporters dislike, rogan said. This arrest is plainly contradictory to the interest of vigorous public debate. On a matter of public interest, it will surely deter American students who do not support Hamas but oppose Israeli foreign policy from speaking their minds. That is incompatible with the founders intent in their construction of the First Amendment. Alright, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
- [18:00]
Ryan
Alright, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take. So let me state a few things about my views here up front. First of all, I believe protesters have a right to demonstrate, and that many activists protesting for Palestinians have been driven by the horrifying images of the war in Gaza. I also believe that protests sometimes leave the realm of civil disobedience and move into criminal actions, and that legitimately scary things have happened on college campuses across the country over the past year. Lastly, I believe that colleges and police are perfectly within their rights to maintain order and that in many cases, including at Columbia, universities were very slow to respond. Additionally, I've argued that protesters aren't always right. I've written about how protests can be counterproductive and repeatedly made the case that college protests were taking up way too much oxygen relative to the actions of the U.S. government, Hamas and Israel. Last spring I went to Penn's campus to talk to encamped students. It was clear to me that most protesters were well intentioned, if not misinformed. I also learned that a lot of the students occupying space on campus were not students but professional organizers, and given that left feeling like the university had the right to clear out the encampments, which they did the following week. I say all this to remind you that my views on student protests have some nuance but are far from innately positive. I hope that gives my statement more weight when I say that the arrest of Khalil is one of the most disturbing acts from the Trump administration. Yet given that, I'm going to focus my take mostly on his arrest. For what it's worth, my basic view on the funding threats to Colombia is that Trump can pull funding to universities, but only if he can prove they are really failing to protect the rights of its students. Most importantly, President Trump is infringing not just on the inalienable right of free speech, but the fundamental ethic of it on truth social. He warned that any student who engaged in anti American activity could be apprehended and deported. That's quite the net to cast, and a decidedly malleable definition that could be used to justify arresting and deporting people for all manner of constitutionally protected speech. How many people do students refer to and will they qualify as anti American if they criticize Trump? Some prominent conservative legal minds whom I genuinely admire like Ilya Shapiro appear so blinded by their hatred for these movements that they've tied themselves into knots to justify the decree. Shapiro argued that Trump's actions are a basic application of US Immigration law, saying the Immigration and Naturalization act allows the government to pull visas from people who are members or supporters of terrorist organizations. This law, according to Shapiro, legally justifies revoking green cards from US Citizens like Khalil, who engaged in pro Hamas disruptions. The problem with Shapiro's position is that it's based on a series of questionable assumptions. Critically, Khalil has not been charged with any crime. As far as we can tell, he has not gotten a hearing or gone through a removal proceeding, both of which are his rights. ICE agents who entered his apartment said they were revoking a student visa based on State Department orders. When they were informed by his lawyer that he had a green card which his wife presented to them, they said that they were actually revoking his green card. Khalil's arrest is not a basic application of US Immigration law, as Shapiro claims. If it were, then the Trump administration's actions wouldn't be so unprecedented. No due process or legal standard has been applied here. The administration has not justified or brought forward proof of anything except broadly worded and unsubstantiated claims that he's a terrorist supporter or was paid by a terrorist organization. On X. The Columbia Jewish Alumni association insisted nobody should have sympathy for Khalil given what he's done. The organization accuses Khalil of disrupting learning, helping protesters take over campuses, and intimidating Jewish students. Even if true, these claims fall pretty far short of providing material support for terrorism. What's more, their support of these accusations is pretty underwhelming. Threads that are supposed to be damning indictments of Khalil show him calmly giving interviews to the press, peacefully standing in a drum circle, or making the case that he's participating in an anti war movement. By most accounts, Khalil was in a leadership role during the protests, working to mediate a resolution with the university. Again, he has not been charged with any crime. There's no evidence I could find that he took part in any kind of violence or vandalism or even the incitement thereof. If the administration does charge him with a crime, my position could change. However, the evidence I've seen so far indicates the Trump administration is attempting to arrest and deport someone for peacefully saying a bunch of things they didn't like. There are legitimate debates about to have immigration and the commitment to the American project. We may ask of those here on student visas or green cards, but there should be no debate about their rights to free speech and due process. Were these takeovers and encampments the kind of thing I wish college campuses did a better job policing during the protests? Absolutely. But are they so insidious as to justify the arrest and deportation and separation of a legal US Resident from his eight month pregnant wife who is an American citizen? Not a chance. Of course, for many Americans, deporting noncitizens supportive of terrorist organizations is a very popular position, and I imagine Khalil's arrest will play well with a lot of people. Let me be clear, though. I do not believe this framing describes the situation accurately. Kahlil is a Palestinian who clearly had a vested interest in objecting to a war that was killing his people. And like many Palestinians, especially those in America, I sincerely doubt the assumption that he is a full fledged supporter of Hamas. This saga reduces the administration's claim to be bastions and warriors for free speech to absurdity. The entire point of advocating for free speech is to defend the principle, even when you abhor the speech. Even if I assume Khalil holds some views I find abhorrent, which is likely, and even if he publicly expresses them on a regular basis, I, along with anyone who has real free speech principles, should still defend his right to speak his view without fear of government reprisal. Kudos to the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. Fire who took a stand demanding answers about his arrests? Even Ann Coulter. Ann Coulter took to X to say, there's almost no one I don't want to deport, but unless they've committed a crime, isn't this a violation of the First Amendment? The ADL shamefully found themselves on the other side of the issue. Once again, I really don't know where we go from here. The Trump administration promised it would focus its deportation efforts on the worst of the worst, but instead are bringing the force of the state down on a Columbia University graduate student with no criminal record, married to an American citizen who just got his master's degree in international affairs at an Ivy League college. No matter how you feel about Khalil, his movement, the students at Columbia, or anything else, if you value civil liberties, due due process and free speech, you should find this development deeply disturbing. We'll be right back after this quick break. Hi folks, it's Mark from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. As the weather gets warmer, it's time for lighter meals, and Whole Foods Market has just what you're looking for with great everyday prices. Look for the yellow low price signs that help you save money without compromising the quality you expect. Nothing, absolutely nothing in the store has any high fructose corn syrup, for example. Just shop with confidence. Save on the best of spring with great everyday prices.
- [25:34]
Isaac Saul
At Whole Foods Market, Nordstrom brings you the season's most wanted brands, Skims, Mango Free People and Princess polly, all under $100. From trending sneakers to beauty must haves, we've curated the styles you'll wear on repeat this spring. Free shipping, free returns and in store pickup make it easier than ever. Shop now in stores and@nordstrom.com.
- [26:08]
Ryan
All right, that is it for my take. Which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Greg in the Netherlands. Greg said can we or you name things as what they are? For example, on Wednesday's my take on Trump's speech, you call things he says nonsense or misinformation, which it is. But above all, it is a lie if Trump or any other politician claims something that is false and he or she can and should and probably does know that it is a lie. First of all, hi Greg, and hello to all our new Dutch readers who joined us after a recent profile that was published in De Vosgrant. I don't really know how to say it. It's a Dutch newspaper that did a big piece on Tangle, so welcome. Look, we're pretty careful to use the L word around here just because of the high level of confidence about the speaker's motivation required to use that word. The Oxford English Dictionary, Tangle's Dictionary of Choice, defines lie as a false statement made with the intent to deceive. The key phrase there is intent to deceive. That's very hard to know. We care a lot about language and word choice, and even though our editorial section allows us, and usually me, to be more expressive with language, we only claim a politician is lying when they're contradicting something they've already said or information they have proven that they know to be true. Since you're talking about President Donald Trump here, let's take two examples. First, and perhaps most eye catchingly, the 2020 election Trump maintains former President Joe Biden only won because of widespread fraud. We know this is false, but we don't know that the president doesn't truly believe it. Indeed, that was part of the legal defense from Trump's team in court cases against him. The same test applies to people like Candace Owens or Rachel Maddow. We can't know what information they are working off of, so we can only accurately describe the content of their speech. We don't always hit the mark with this standard and at times have claimed the mistruth is a lie in our editorial writing without providing full justification for saying so. But it is the standard we try to hit. In contrast, we confidently assert that President Trump lied about having classified documents. We know that he had the classified documents at Mar a Lago and that he knew that he had them based on detailed reports from the Justice Department. Therefore, we say that Trump lied about not having the documents and then lied about returning them. And yes, we have said Joe Biden has lied too regarding Trump's speech. We just don't know what he knew specifically. We called his claims about Social Security fraud nonsense. But if he's getting unchecked information from Elon Musk, then he's just repeating poor information worthy of criticism. Definitely an outright lie. That's a lot harder to say. All right, that is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.
- [28:58]
Tony
Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the Radar story for today, folks. At least 624 members of Syria's Alawite minority group have been killed in the past week as fighting escalates between Syrian government forces and loyalists of ousted President Bashar al Assad. The killings, documented by the Syrian Network for Human Rights, have been concentrated in Syria's coastal provinces and appear to be led by Sunni militants. Since Assad's fall in December, the new government has sought to establish stability after 14 years of civil war. However, the past week's violence raises concerns about the government's ability to manage the various armed groups that remain active in the country. The Washington Post has this story, and there's a link in today's episode Description alright, next up is our numbers section. The value of Columbia University's endowment in fiscal year 2024 was $14.8 billion. Colombia's operating revenue in fiscal year 2024 was $6.6 billion. The amount of Colombia's operating revenue coming from government grants and contracts in fiscal year 2024 was $1.3 billion. The amount of federal research money given to Colombia in 2023 from the National Institutes of Health was $747 million. The percentage of US adults who support deporting international students in the US accused of antisemitic behaviors in connection in Gaza is 43%, according to a February 2025 Economist YouGov poll the percentage of US adults who oppose deporting international students in the US accuse of anti Semitic behaviors in connection with protests over the war in Gaza is 35%. The percentage of U.S. adults who approved of pro Palestinian campus protests in May 2024 was 25%, according to a Yahoo News poll. And the percentage of US adults who opposed pro Palestinian campus protests in May 2024 was 50%. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Many hospital rooms are windowless, leaving patients with anxiety without much reprieve. Artist Colleen Wall had an idea bring the outside world in creating what she calls land escapes, Wall paints murals that depict the view outside an open window. I want them to have that minute that maybe one of the windows reminds them of a place that they went to in their lifetime or that they dreamed about going to, wal said. And they can get into their imagination and go to that place. Nice News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description all right everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to Retangle Dot, where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace.
- [32:03]
Ryan
Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul and edited and engineered by Duke Thomas. Our script is edited by Ari Weitzman, Will K Back daily Saul and Sean Brady the logo for our podcast was made by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. The music for the podcast was produced by Diet75 and if you are looking for more from Tangle, please go check out our website@readtangle.com that's readtangle.com.
- [32:41]
Isaac Saul
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