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From executive producer isaac saul this is tangle.
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Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host Isaac Saul and today we're going to be covering the Caribbean boat strikes and the controversy surrounding some of Pete Hegseth's comments about them. It is Tuesday, December 2nd. Today's Giving Tuesday. By the way. Great day to donate and support causes that you might want to get behind. That includes Tangle, of course. If you want to subscribe to our work, you can go to readtangle.com subscribe but there are many, many organizations more in need than we are at the moment. And in the last few Tango episodes before the Thanksgiving break, we broke down and shared some of those organizations. Everybody on our staff gave a recommendation. So if you're interested in that, you can go to their episode notes and and find some organizations that we've suggested donating to. It's really cool to see the collection of groups that came through. I think everybody on the team kind of shared ones they had personal experience with and I'm proud of the list that we came up with. So with that, I'm going to hand it over to John to break down today's main topic. Then I'm going to be back for my take.
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Thanks Isaac and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, a three judge panel for the U.S. court of Appeals for the Third Circuit ruled unanimously that Alina Habba is unlawfully serving as the U.S. attorney in New Jersey, upholding a U.S. district Court judge's finding. Number two, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in Cox v. Sony considering whether Internet service providers can be held financially liable for failing to take action against illegal streaming of copyrighted material. The court is expected to rule on the case in June. Number three, at least 1,350 people in Southeast Asia have died amid a series of major storms which have caused landslides and flash floods. Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand and the Philippines have been among the countries most affected. Number four, US Special envoy Steve Witkoff and President Trump's son in law Jared Kushner will meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday to discuss proposals to end the war in Ukraine. And number five, the National Weather Service has issued a winter storm warning for much of the Northeast, predicting at least 6 inches of snow for a region stretching from New Jersey to Maine and a mix of snow and rain between Maryland and Ohio. Travelers are advised to use caution.
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This morning, President Trump defending his Defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, amid mounting scrutiny of.
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US Boat strikes near Venezuela. I have great confidence the controversy centering.
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On September 2 strikes on a boat.
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The Trump administration alleges was carrying illegal drugs. On Friday, the Washington Post reporting, citing two sources that after the first strike left survivors, a second strike was conducted to comply with a Hegseth order to kill all on board. He said he did not say that. I believe I'm 100%. On Monday, the White House said that on September 2nd the military carried out a follow up strike on a suspected drug running boat in the Caribbean after two boat occupants survived an initial strike. The statement follows a Washington Post report published Friday that Defense Secretary Pete Heath authorized military action to kill everyone on board the boat, though it is unclear whether he was aware of the second strike on the two survivors. If carried out as described, the second strike may have violated international law by killing incapacitated enemy combatants. For Context, Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions prohibits violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture of persons, taking no active part in the hostilities in armed conflicts, the protection extends to members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed au de kumba by sickness, wounds, detention or any other cause. We covered the Trump administration's military action against alleged drug boats. You can check out that coverage with links in today's episode Description According to the Post's report, as military commanders watched a live drone feed of the initial strike, a second strike was ordered to kill the two survivors and comply with Hegset's directive. The military has hit alleged drug boats multiple times in subsequent strikes, but the September 2nd mission is the only reported instance of survivors being deliberately targeted. In a separate operation in October, survivors of a strike were captured by US Forces and repatriated to their home countries. The Trump administration has notified Congress that the US Is in armed conflict with drug cartels and have been designated as terrorist organizations in accordance with this designation. Defense Secretary Hegseth has maintained that US Military action against alleged drug boats is legal, saying the declared intent is to stop lethal drugs, destroy narco boats and kill the narco terrorists who have been poisoning the American people. On Monday, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt said that Admiral Frank M. Bradley, commander of the U.S. special Operations Command, or ordered the second strike and acted within his authority. However, some lawyers and military experts have argued that the attacks are illegal because the alleged traffickers pose no imminent threat of attack against the United States. Lawmakers from both parties have expressed concern about the report, and the House Senate and Armed Services Committees each launched investigations, with Senators Roger Wicker, the Republican from Missouri, and Jack Reed, the Democrat from Rhode island, telling reporters that they have directed inquiries to the Defense Department. Separately, President Trump has ordered a significant military buildup near Venezuela, raising the prospect of heightened action against Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro's government to deter drug trafficking. As of Sunday, 11 U.S. warships and approximately 15,000 troops have been mobilized to the Caribbean, and on Saturday, Trump said Venezuelan airspace should be considered closed in its entirety. The president spoke with Maduro last week, and the two reportedly discussed a potential meeting in the near future. Today we'll share arguments from the right and the left on the latest reporting on the boat strikes and military buildup, and then Isaac's take.
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We'll be right back after this quick break.
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All right, first up, let's start with what the right is saying. The right is mixed on ad hoc military action, but many say the Trump administration is right to pressure the Maduro government. Some argue that the double strike on the drug boat, if confirmed, was likely a war crime. Others question Democrats opposition to the boat strikes. The New York Post editorial board wrote Venezuela and the world will be far better off with the Maduro regime gone. Operation Southern Spear has sunk roughly two dozen drug cartel boats in recent weeks, while the Pentagon has built up the largest U.S. military presence in the region in more than three decades, the board said. Critics fume that U.S. forces can't know the boats they are sinking are actually cartel craft, but experts say it's pretty easy to tell. They're the only ones equipped with multiple expensive high speed engines so they can outrun surface vessels looking to intercept drug shipments. Fishermen can't afford anything like such vessels, nor do they need them. The Trump administration plainly and rightly thinks it's long past time for Maduro to go. If it does move ahead to decapitate the regime, Venezuela's decrepit armed forces will be nearly helpless to stop it. The only combat experience Caracas underpaid desertion ridden troops have is in firing on civilian protesters, the board wrote. We expect our president would rather not go there. Far better for Maduro and his top cronies to read the writing on the wall and flee, no doubt with some of their ill gotten billions to Cuba or some other ally. Either way, decent people then have to hope that Venezuelan civil society retains the strength to rapidly return to normal order. Despite the Maduro gang's talk of a guerrilla resistance in national review, Andrew C. McCarthy said, we intended the strike to be lethal is not a defense. If this happened as described in the Post report, it was at best a war crime under federal law. I say at best because I believe the attacks on these suspected drug boats without congressional authorization under circumstances in which the boat operators pose no military threat to the United States and given that narcotics trafficking is defined in federal law as a crime rather than as terrorist activity, which, much less an act of war, are lawless and therefore that the killings are not legitimate under the law or armed conflict, McCarthy wrote. Nevertheless, even if we stipulate arguendo that the administration has a colorable claim that our forces are in an armed conflict with non state actors, the laws of war do not permit the killing of combatants who have been rendered all day combat out of fighting, including by shipwreck. It is a war crime to intentionally kill combatants who have been rendered unable to fight. It is not permitted under the laws and customs of honorable warfare to order that no quarter be given to apply lethal force to those who surrender or who are injured, shipwrecked or otherwise unable to fight, McCarthy said. Hence, it cannot be a defense to say, as Hegseth does, that one has killed because one's objective was lethal kinetic strikes. In USA Today, Nicole Russell asked, why is Hegseth being attacked for defending Americans? Hegseth's orders to target drug cartels in international waters have led to news reports suggesting that he has gone too far. If war crimes have been committed, the chief of the Department of Defense should be held accountable. I'm glad to see that some Republicans have called for this too, though the White House has defended Hagseth, russell wrote. In the meantime, I'd like to know just what drives the Democratic Party to actually protect alleged narco terrorists or suspected drug traffickers. It also raises questions about whether the left is worried about law and order now that a Republican is at the helm. The left's empathy about alleged narco terrorists is strange to me too. It detracts from the real issue, which is Trump's commitment to securing our borders, an issue that was exacerbated during the previous administration. During the Biden administration, illegal migrants flooded the United States at record highs, russell said. I don't support a US Member of the military committing war crimes, and if there needs to be an investigation, so be it. But I support the United States defending itself vigorously, as most Republicans do, and I can't support the Democrats push to go too far and make criminals and illegal migrants their heroes either.
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Alright, that is it for what the right is saying. Which brings us to what the left is saying. The left argues the Trump administration has committed war crimes. Some call on Democrats to fully investigate the latest reports on the strikes. Others criticized the Trump administration's aggression toward Venezuela. In the nation, Jeet here said Donald Trump's imperialism is murdering people. A strong case can be made that everything about this attack was criminal. It was an act of war which required congressional authority that Trump did not have. Further, even if the boat was smuggling drugs, that still doesn't justify indiscriminate slaughter. But the killing of struggling survivors is the most clear cut case of a war crime. It is murder, pure and simple. Here wrote Trump's criminal attacks on boats in the Western hemisphere is part and parcel of a larger reassertion of imperialism justified by the Monroe Doctrine. The new imperialism can also be seen in visible interference in elections in Argentina and Honduras, using threatened cuts to aid and loans to coerce voters into electing right wing governments. On Friday, Trump announced he was granting a pardon to Juan Orlando Hernandez, the former president of Honduras who was convicted of drug trafficking on a massive scale. The New York Times presented this pardon as a curious display of contradictions and dissonance. Here said in truth, there really is no contradiction. The underlying policy is the reassurance of American power in the hemisphere, even at the expense of the rule of law. Pardoning Hernandez is a way of gaining greater leverage over Honduras, just as blowing up ships is a way of intimidating neighboring countries. In the American saga, zaid Jilani wrote, the better way to stop illegal orders is to prosecute those who give them. If you ask any group of military lawyers about the reported second strike, they'd say at the very least it was legally suspect. At the most it means Hegseth was ordering those men to commit a crime. Given that there is no actual declared war between suspected drug smugglers and the US Military. It wouldn't even be a war crime. It might just be murder, jelani said. Democratic officials can certainly continue to make videos about why this is all problematic, but there's a better and easier way to put an end to all of the summary executions. The Democratic Party can simply make clear that it believes in the rule of law, and there is no rule of law without accountability. Democrats in Congress can promise to fully investigate any possible violations of the law. Presidential contenders can promise to appoint people to the Department of Justice who believe that nobody is above the law. This could mean that Hegseth or even Trump will one day be prosecuted for ordering these crimes, jelani wrote. Fundamentally, these Trump officials are self interested if they think there's a serious chance that they will be in legal trouble or end up behind bars. The I imagine you'll start seeing much more cautious use of the US Military, the Bloomberg editorial board argued. The US Needs a strategy in Venezuela, not airstrikes. With the deployment of the USS Gerald R. Ford, the world's largest aircraft carrier, the US has amassed a fearsome array of assets off the shores of Venezuela. Dozens of advanced fighter jets, thousands of troops, guided missile destroyers, special operations forces, armed drones, gunships, possibly a nuclear submarine. More useful, however, would be a strategy, the board wrote. What purpose this armada is meant to serve remains stubbornly opaque. Strikes on speedboats allegedly running drugs in the Caribbean and eastern Pacific, which have killed more than 80 people since early September, hardly require such firepower. Focusing on the Caribbean ignores the main cause of US Fentanyl smuggled in from Mexico, widely viewed as illegal. The boat strikes have reportedly led partners such as the UK and Colombia to cut off some intelligence sharing with the US Maduro, by standing up to American bullying, may have bolstered his standing at home and in the region, the board said. The White House needs to decide what its goals are. If the hope is that gunboat diplomacy will encourage Maduro to resign peacefully, the administration should be ramping up talks to seek a credible handover of power. Airstrikes would be unwise, let alone an invasion. Yet the longer US Forces are engaged in pinprick attacks, the less intimidating they will be. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
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All right, that is it for the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take. So a few short years ago, Vladimir Putin was amassing troops along the border of Ukraine. I remember the debates from that time. Many reporters, geopolitical experts in the region, and leaders with experience navigating Putin were warning that he was about to invade Ukraine. At the same time, many anti mainstream heterodox thinkers accused those warning about Putin of being saber rattling warmongers who just couldn't let go of red scare politics. Well, we all know what happened next. In retrospect, it was also obvious Putin did what he said he would do. The hundreds of thousands of soldiers at the border, they weren't for a parade. We had no real reason to question what was coming. We just deluded ourselves into thinking otherwise. I've been thinking about this period as we watch the events unfolding in Venezuela. The Trump administration is extrajudicially killing alleged drug smugglers off Venezuela's coast, amassing troops in the region have moved the world's largest aircraft carrier to the Caribbean and have approved a CIA measure to unseat Maduro. Trump has also declared Venezuelan airspace closed while simultaneously telling reporters not to read anything into it. Well, candidly I'm reading into it. It sure seems like preparation for war with Venezuela. The only potential off ramp the administration has offered at this point is Maduro stepping down. And knowing what we know about the authoritarian leader, that seems unlikely. This is the same Maduro who delivered an address in army fatigues while brandishing a sword that belonged to the independence leader Simon Bolivar, warning supporters to prepare for a confrontation with the United States on land which. Well, that doesn't seem great. Now consider the military leadership on the US Side. Before he was confirmed as Secretary of Defense, I warned about the dangers of putting Hegsetheff in control of the Pentagon. I've supported many of Trump's other cabinet selections, like Susie Wiles or Lee Zeldin or Marco Rubio. And I acknowledge that other picks whom I have ideological differences with are strongly qualified, like Stephen Miller or Tom Homan. Hegseth, however, is different. My concern isn't over ideological differences or a bad confirmation hearing or inexperience, though Hegseth does check all three boxes. I think Pete Hegseth is fundamentally unequipped for the job. He is deeply unqualified, with a preponderously failure ridden record, and is frighteningly ill suited to lead 3 million service members. Everything he's touched has turned eventually to chaos, and it didn't take long for huge controversies to spew out of Hegseth's Pentagon, culminating in several stories involving the mishandling of classified information which led to some of his closest allies declaring him unfit for the job. This was all bad enough, but the events of the last few weeks, they're worse, the Secretary of Defense is now openly, brazenly, unambiguously committing war crimes. If this isn't your first time reading Tangle, you know that I'm not trying to be hyperbolic or sensational. That's just not what I do. Hegseth and the White House have not offered a sufficient response to the explosive Washington Post report, which detailed Hegseth's order to strike a shipwrecked boat a second time to kill the survivors. If the report is accurate, which is so far essentially uncontested, the best case scenario. The best case scenario is that the US Committed a war crime. And it's only a war crime if you buy what the administration is selling, which is that we are at war with drug smugglers off the coast of Venezuela. Congress has not declared war, and we can't be at war with a cartel, so we aren't. It's all very simple, as National Review's Andrew McCarthy explained. Nevertheless, even if we stipulate arguendo that the administration has a colorable claim that our forces are in an armed conflict with non state actors, I.e. suspected members of drug cartels that the administration has dubiously designated as foreign terrorist organizations, the laws of war do not permit the killing of combatants who have been rendered hors de combat or out of the fighting, including by shipwreck. In other words, even if you buy the untenable claim that they are combatants, it is a war crime to intentionally kill combatants who have been rendered unable to fight. McCarthy added, it is not permitted under the laws and customs of honorable warfare to order that no quarter be given to apply lethal force to those who surrender or are injured, shipwrecked, or otherwise unable to fight. I suppose the administration could try to point to some gray area here. Hegseth could argue he has used the word war colloquially in public, while the administration's legal justification is more nuanced. The President has declared an emergency, and as the commander of the armed forces, he can direct the military to defend the country against an organized armed group. Obviously, that would require some proving, and perhaps that's something the Department of Defense is willing to do. But instead, Hegseth responded by calling the Washington Post fake news. This is obviously the administration's reflex. Calling something fake news is akin to an acknowledgment of receipt like thanks for your email or I appreciate you reaching out. What it isn't is a rebuttal of a single fact reported by the Post. Instead, Hegstaff emphasized the strikes were specifically intended to be lethal. Then the White House confirmed that the second deadly strike was deliberate, but pinned it on Admiral Frank M. Mitch Bradley. Before defending the decision, White House press secretary Caroline Levitt insisted Bradley was well within his authority. Again, this is nonsense. The White House is offering no argument to support Levitt's claim, which is tantamount to simply admitting Bradley and or Hegseth committed a war crime. Maybe they've drunk their own Kool Aid, but more likely it's a tactic to make the whole thing look less egregiously illegal and unholy. I hope it doesn't work. It brings me no satisfaction to say all this. My first reaction to the news of these strikes in September was, well, the cartels got what they had coming to them. I nod my head when Trump or his Cabinet members talk about the scourge of drugs that are ruining so many American lives. I want our government to do something to oppose Maduro and drug cartels. I do not feel sympathy for the people who profit off of polluting our streets, whether they're Venezuelan drug runners or Chinese fentanyl importers or the American drug dealers themselves. I've watched them destroy my hometown and so many friends and family members. Yet somehow, even on this front, the administration has made it impossible to support their actions. Not only have they openly committed a war crime, and importantly, nowhere in the United States is there capital punishment for selling or smuggling drugs. But their policy is incoherent. For starters, the administration frames their actions as a war against deadly drugs. But the drug that pours out of Venezuela is cocaine, not the opioids or fentanyl that has ravished American communities. And no, this is not an endorsement of using cocaine. Secondly, the administration is being pretty selective with how they oppose South American cartels. Just this weekend, Trump pardoned the former president of Honduras, who was literally convicted of colluding with the cartels and trafficking drugs into the United States states. Third, the quote unquote plan here seems to be forming. While the strikes are happening, subsequent strikes have allowed survivors to return home, another tacit admission of guilt, and shifted from the Caribbean to the Pacific, which, by the way, has always been the route through which most of the cocaine is smuggled into the country from Venezuela. And this entire package of actions is now wrapped up in the very real possibility that in a few months time we'll be in a hot war with a South American country, undermining one of the fundamental promises of Trump's campaigns. And that has always made him so appealing. This whole episode is deeply upsetting and disappointing. It makes me feel ashamed and sad for the soldiers forced to carry out these orders, and even more affirmed in my initial position that Hegseth shouldn't be anywhere near a military authority.
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We'll be right back after this quick break.
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- [28:11]
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All right, that is it for my take. Which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Bertold in Austin, Texas. Bertold said, during the government shutdown when the House Republicans left Washington, why did nobody call for the FBI to force them to return? I live in Texas and I still remember all the threats the Democrats in the Texas House received when they decided to leave the state state in protest of the redistricting plans. Okay, so the requirements of members of the U.S. congress during the shutdown and the Texas Legislature during the redistricting vote are different in two meaningful ways. First of all, Congress was not in session during much of the shutdown, so members of Congress were not compelled to be in Washington, D.C. at the time both Republicans and Democrats left the Capitol. Even though they had a political impasse to resolve and work to do, they had no legislative business to attend to that would keep them in Washington and no rule exists to that would punish them for leaving while Congress was in recess. Secondly, US Law does not require members of Congress to be in the Capitol while voting is in session to rarely utilize Congressional regulations. House Rule 20, Clause 5 and Senate Rule 6 can be invoked by majority vote to direct the Sergeant at arms to bring absent members to the chamber. However, those rules are almost never invoked and weren't applied during the shutdown. The rules and the situation in Texas were different. The Texas Constitution requires a quorum for legislative business and empowers the House to pass rules to penalize absent members. Those rules included civil arrest warrants and fines after the redistricting standoff. Future punishments will include fundraising restrictions and loss of seniority. All right, that is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.
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Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the Radar story for today folks. According to a recent analysis of Census data, approximately 11% of Americans changed residents in 2024, the lowest annual figure since at least 1948. The least mobility occurred in the Northeast, and New Jersey and New York had the smallest share of movers at 8% and 9% respectively. Conversely, residents in Alaska, Oklahoma and Colorado moved the Most at approximately 14%. The rental listing site Point to Homes, which published the analysis wrote that falling mobility affects economic resilience by limiting labor market flexibility, slowing wage growth, and potentially reducing innovation as workers are less likely to move for better opportunities. Axios has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description.
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Alright, next up is our numbers section. It's been 91 days since the United States first strike on September 2nd on a boat allegedly trafficking drugs. The number of people reportedly killed in that strike is 11. The number of alleged drug boats confirmed to have been targeted by US strikes to date is 21. The total number of people reportedly killed in those strikes is 82. As of November 26, the approximate number of U.S. troops stationed in the Caribbean is 15,000. The approximate number of U.S. personnel currently stationed at bases in Puerto Rico is 5,000. According to a November 2025 Reuters Ipsos poll, 29% of U.S. adults say they support using the U.S. military to kill suspected drug traffickers without a judge's or court's involvement, while 51% oppose it. And according to a November 2025 CBS News YouGov poll, 30% of U.S. adults say they would favor the U.S. taking action in Venezuela, while 70% would oppose it.
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And last but not least, our have a nice day story. For decades, the United States has had a tradition of shopping for holiday deals. On Black Friday. Cyber Monday was added to the fold with the advent of E Commerce. Then in 2012, the 92nd Street Y came up with Giving Tuesday, a new tradition of kicking off the holiday shopping season with donations to none, nonprofits and charities. The organization claims that over 36 million people participated in Giving Tuesday in 2024, raising over $3.6 billion for those in need, an estimated 18.5 billion since its inception. Forbes has this story and there's a link in today's episode description.
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All right everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Lal signing off. Have a great day, y'.
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All.
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Peace.
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Our Executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our Executive producer is John Law. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editorial Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey Saw Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
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