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Tangle Podcast Intro
This is Tangle.
- [01:55]
Isaac Saul
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and and a little bit of my take. I'm your host Isaac Saul and on today's episode we're going to be talking about the charges against Don Lemon. It is Monday, February 2nd. We're going to break down exactly what happened and then share some views from the left and the right. And then my take on this very controversial story. Before we jump in though, a quick heads up that we are actually hiring right now. Applications are open for a part time role on the Tangle editorial team. The this remote position involves in depth research and editing work on our daily newsletter as well as opportunities to contribute to our podcasts, YouTube and social media channels. We're accepting applications for the next week until Tuesday, February 10th at midnight. To learn more about the position and how to apply, you can click a link in today's episode description or check it out on our website. All right, with that, I'm gonna send it over to John for today's podcast and I'll be back for my.
- [03:05]
John Lowell
Thanks Isaac and welcome everybody. Hope y' all had a wonderful weekend. For those of you who asked, I had a wonderful time with my daughter celebrating her fourth birthday at Disneyland. It was really, really cool. We did this special breakfast thing that you can purchase where you get to meet all the Disney characters privately. You know anybody can, but it was just really nice cause not many people do so there weren't a ton of people there and my daughter got to personally get a hello and a greeting and dance with a bunch of characters. It was adorable and sweet and memories that hopefully will last forever for her and definitely will for me. So thanks for asking about that and I hope all of you are doing really well and having some special moments that you can share with me. I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to write in. Let me know what's going on in your lives. Johnadtangle.com that's j o n@readtangle.com alright, let's get into today's quick hits. First up, a partial government shutdown began on Saturday after Congress failed to pass a funding package by the Friday deadline. The Senate passed a $1.2 trillion bipartisan bill 71 to 29 to fund most agencies through September while extending Department of Homeland Security funding for two weeks to allow lawmakers more time to negotiate a longer term package for the department. The bill now goes to the House, where Speaker Mike Johnson said he will attempt to fast track the bill and pass it by Tuesday. The justice department released over 3 million pages of files related to the government's investigation of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. The latest release contains references to prominent public figures and politicians mentioned in past releases, including President Donald Trump, former President Bill Clinton and businessman Elon Musk. 3. A federal judge denied Minnesota's request for a temporary injunction to stop the federal immigration enforcement operation in the state, finding that the state had not met the burden of proof necessary to justify an injunction. Number four Former Harris County Attorney Christian Menefeet defeated former Houston City Council member Amanda Edwards in a special runoff election to serve the remainder of Representative Sylvester Turner's term after he passed away in March 2025. Filling the seat will shrink Republicans House majority to 218 to 214 and number five, President Trump said that the Kennedy center in Washington, D.C. will close for approximately two years for repairs and renovations. Several artists have canceled performance performances at the cultural center since Trump took control of its board and operations.
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Breaking news this morning, federal agents have arrested former CNN host Don Lemon after.
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John Lowell
He entered a church to cover an.
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Sleep Number Advertiser
Anti ICE protest on January 18th.
- [05:56]
Tangle Podcast Intro
Now, Lemon's attorney, Abby Lowell released a statement statement on Instagram writing in part, quote, instead of investigating the federal agents who killed two peaceful Minnesota protesters, the Trump Justice Department is devoting its time, attention and resources to this arrest. And that is the real indictment of wrongdoing in this case. This unprecedented attack on the First Amendment and transparent attempt to distract attention from many of the crises facing this administration will not stand. Don will fight these charges vigorously and thoroughly in court.
- [06:25]
John Lowell
Court On Thursday night, former CNN anchor and independent journalist Don Lemon was arrested in Los Angeles and charged with federal civil rights violations for his alleged actions at a protest inside a Minnesota church in January. The Department of Justice charged Lemon, activist Nikima Levy Armstrong, Minnesota based journalist Georgia Ford and six others with conspiracy to interfere with the civil rights of church congregants and with violating the federal Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act. Lemon, who maintained that he was covering the protest as a journalist, was released without bond after appearing in federal court on Friday afternoon. His next hearing is scheduled for February 9th in Minneapolis. For context, on January 18th, a group of protesters interrupted church services at city's church in St. Paul, Minnesota in response to reports that one of its church pastors works as an Immigration and Customs Enforcement official. The protest is part of a broader pushback against ICE in Minneapolis, which was amplified after the fatal shooting of US citizen Renee Goode by an ICE agent in the city. On January 7th. Lemon live streamed the protest and preparations in a parking lot near the church. This is an operation that is secret, lemon said on the live stream. I can't tell you what's going to happen, but you're going to watch it live unfold here. Lemon then walks into the church along with protesters who move towards the front of the main aisle chanting justice for Renee Goode and hands up. Don't shoot. Prosecutors allege Lemon and other co defendants oppressed, threatened and intimidated congregants and pastors by occupying the main aisle and engaging in menacing and threatening threatening behavior. They further claim that Lemon physically obstructed congregants from exiting the building by posting himself at the main door. Lemon can be seen throughout the video asking congregants and protesters for interviews, and he says at times that he is there as a journalist and unaffiliated with the protest. Federal prosecutors first brought the criminal complaint to a federal magistrate judge, who declined to approve the charges against Lemon and four others, citing insufficient evidence. Then, after Minnesota Chief U.S. district Judge Patrick Schlitz refused to immediately intervene, the justice department sent the U.S. court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit an emergency petition, which the three judge panel rejected. Finally, on Thursday, prosecutors presented the case to a Minnesota grand jury, which returned the indictment that led to Lemon's arrest. On his YouTube show after his release, Lemon called the charges an attempt by the federal government to silence journalists. The foundation for Individual Rights and Expression released a statement on Friday criticizing the charges, writing, journalists play a vital role in documenting and reporting on events of public concern, including illegal conduct and manufacturing federal crimes. Out of the facts we've seen so far chills that core function Today we'll share what the left and right are saying about the charges against Lemon and then Isaac's tape.
- [09:18]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [09:22]
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- [11:12]
John Lowell
All right, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left is critical of Lemon's arrest, which many call the latest Trump led political prosecution. Some say the legal basis of the charges is weak. Others suggest the arrest will catalyze further opposition to Trump. In Bloomberg, Nia Malika Henderson called Lemon's arrest part of a larger pattern amid the dizzying deluge of stories out of Washington. This is one of those easy to understand stories that immediately raises questions about the Trump administration's priorities and about the broader state of America's democracy, henderson wrote. The arrests of Lemon and Fort fit a broader pattern. Trump has routinely gone after journalists, often in face to face confrontations, but also in lawsuits against outlets like cbs, ABC and the New York Times. He seems to have a particular animus toward women journalists and black journalists. Both Lemon and journalist Georgia Fort are black. To Trump and maga, the ultimate outcome of these arrests doesn't matter. It is kind of a troll, a harnessing of the justice system to own the libs. The point is retribution and the exercise of power. The point is to instill fear by going after people who have been unafraid to challenge this administration's policies and their barrage of falsehoods, be they protesters or journalists. These are moves similar to what happens in authoritarian countries and should not be dismissed as distractions, henderson said. In arresting Lemon, Trump is attempting to project strength, yet in doing so, he risks overreaching, which could weaken him further. The more he focuses on settling scores rather than governing, the more he erodes his political standing in civil discourse. Joyce Vance asked, why indict Don Lemon? It isn't about convicting him. It's unlikely that will happen. It's about intimidating journalists and attempting to make them censure themselves out of fear of consequences, which can be very expensive, especially for an independent journalist who lacks the backing of a major company, vance wrote. Why do I say that they're unlikely to be convicted? The government has to establish that each defendant knew the unlawful purpose of the agreement to prevent or interfere with the exercise of constitutional rights, and joined it willfully, which means with the intent to further the unlawful purpose. Title 18 U.S.C. 247. The second charge is from a statute called the FACE act, which stands for Freedom of access to Clinic Entrances. To interfere with means to restrict a person's freedom of movement, to intimidate a person means to place the person in reasonable fear of bodily harm either to that person or to someone else. To physically obstruct means to block the entry or exit from a facility that provides reproductive health services. Perhaps the government has better evidence than what's in the indictment, but from what we can see, it's difficult to imagine how they can get a jury to convict, vance said. Two federal judges declined to issue an arrest warrant based on presumably at least as good of a factual basis as the government has for the indictment. That should have caused prosecutors to pause about whether their case could withstand scrutiny. In the New York Times, Jamelle Bouie wrote, trump only has one tool in his toolbox. The only thing Trump and his allies know how to do is use the coercive force of the state. When met with resistance, defiance or indifference, their go to move is to apply more force in hopes of forcing their opponents to bend the knee. Bowie said. The arrest of Don Lemon and several others is an instance of this blunt force approach to the use of power. There is little chance these arrests will lead to a viable prosecution. Justice Department officials struggled to find a judge who would authorize the arrests. Since protest and the journalistic coverage of a protest are among the activities expressly protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution. The point of these arrests is less about the ultimate outcome than the spectacle. They are meant to send a message to other journalists to watch their words and their movements or face punishment, bowie wrote. But here again, the White House does not seem to understand the limits of repression. In the same way that the killings of Renee Goode and Alex Preddy only galvanized more Americans against the president. The arrests of journalists will likely further convince many ordinary people that the most reasonable response to the Trump administration is opposition. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. The right broadly supports the charges, saying Lemon crossed a line from journalist to activist. Some suggest a conviction will be difficult to secure. Others say the left is wrongfully portraying Lemon as a martyr. In Fox News, Greg Jarrett said Don Lemon left his press pass at the door when he joined the church storming mob. Journalists, however defined, cannot, without legal consequences, engage in incitement, defamation, obscenity, threatened violence, national security breaches and the commission of crimes. Calling yourself a journalist or claiming that you are simply committing journalism as Lemon has done is not a defense. It is your behavior that the law examines. Both words and actions can reveal your intent, jarrett wrote. This is why Lemon has found himself in criminal jeopardy. His own digital videos seem to incriminate him. In America, the right to protest does not extend to private property and certainly not to houses of worship. By law, they are protected places, secured spaces where people of all faiths can exercise their other First Amendment right to practice their religion without punishment or persecution, jarrett said. Predictable outrage over the charges was voiced immediately by Lemon's attorney, Abby Lowell, who declared that it was an unprecedented attack on the First Amendment. It was an ironic statement given that worshippers were attacked for exercising their First Amendment religious rights in the free press. Jed Rubenfeld Freedom of the press won't protect Don Lemon if you are an accomplice to a crime, videoing the criminal act and streaming that video does not make you immune from prosecution. That would be a get out of jail free card. Nowadays everyone's a journalist armed with a camera and able to report and broadcast widely, rubenfeld said. The fact that some of the protesters may have violated the FACE act or the Conspiracy Against Rights statute does not mean that Lemon did. Merely associating with a criminal doesn't make you a criminal. Merely being present at the scene of a crime doesn't make you an accomplice. Instead, the prosecution would have to show that Lemon aided and abetted the protesters in their wrongdoing. The very act of being privy to the protesters plan in advance, keeping it secret and then videoing and live streaming. It is arguably in itself an attempt to bolster the success of what Lemon called the operation, rubinfeld wrote. But all this rests on a debatable premise that Lemon knew that some of the protesters were planning to engage or were engaging in acts of unlawful obstruction. If he learned this either before or during the event, and he still intentionally assisted the operation, the he could be guilty as an aider and abettor. But if he never knew that, then he's probably off the hook. And proving such knowledge can be very difficult, the New York Post editorial board argued. Activist Don Lemon is not the journalism Hill for liberal media to die on. Lemon smirkingly announced that the purpose of Operation Pull up was to surprise people, catch them off guard and hold them to account. The feds arrested him for violating the Face act, which prohibits the use of threat of force to interfere with religious observance at a place of worship, the board wrote. That's plainly what Lemon did as he smugly told the bewildered pastor of the church that the mob's freedom of speech and freedom to assemble and protest trumped the congregation's right to worship God in peace and browbeat the minister, demanding answers to his questions? Of course, no one has a right to speak, assemble or protest on someone else's private property. After his St. Paul stunt, Lemon bashed the entitlement and white supremacy of the city's church congregation, whining that being a gay black man in America makes him a target for persecution by the forces of repression. Please, he's a wealthy man claiming that supposed victim status and a false sense of moral superiority give him some excuse to lord it over normal folks, the board wrote. Genuine freedom of the press is vital to American life and our own work. That makes it all the more important that Delulus like Don Lemon pay real consequences for trying to turn the trade into a privilege that somehow trumps the rights of every other citizen. Alright, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
- [19:34]
Isaac Saul
Alright, that is it for the left and the writer saying, which brings us to my take. Ever since the Tree of Life shooting in Pittsburgh in 2018, going to a synagogue has had an air of stress to it. For worshipers of all kinds Christian, Jewish, Muslim, et cetera, the thought easily creeps in. You check your surroundings. You are constantly aware of whether something might feel off or if there's a new face in the crowd you've never seen before. As sad as it is, I know that I have a hard time putting my head down in prayer, closing my eyes and losing myself in a service without first scanning the room, checking the closest exits and eyeing up fellow worshipers for odd behavior. These churchgoers almost certainly have similar fears, especially given the mass shooting during morning Mass at Annunciation Catholic School in Minneapolis last year. So I can only imagine the fear, shock and discomfort of sitting in a service when dozens of people suddenly barge in jeering your pastor. Pulling out microphones and cameras and blocking entrances and exits. By Don Lemon's own account, churchgoers were scared enough that some ran from the building in tears, gathering up their children or family members to get out. Some said protesters physically blocked them from getting to Sunday school classes their children were attending. The reason given for confronting these churchgoers was that they had a pastor who had also led an ICE office in St. Paul, Minnesota. As far as I can tell from the video, the pastor, one of eight at the church, was not leading services and did not appear to be in attendance. I'm also unaware of him being accused of any particular wrongdoing in his role with ice, Though the agency's actions in Minnesota have invited plenty of reason for protest in the last few weeks, I want to be clear that I find this form of protest abhorrent not only is it likely illegal, it's also nonsensical. Churchgoers do not carry the sins of a pastor having a profession that is out of favor if they were even aware of his job, and they should not be punished for it. At the same time, when I first read the headlines about Don Lemon's arrest, I was extremely alarmed. Arresting journalists is another example of this administration's crackdown on free speech, and it's a chilling message to reporters everywhere that they could be next if they step out of line. In a reader question last week, I noted that even though Lemon seemed overtly sympathetic to the protesters he was covering, his attitude presented more of a breach of basic journalistic ethics than his actions presented a violation of law. But it appears that Lemon's sympathy was just the tip of the iceberg. The more information that has come out, the more his conduct looks like it may be outside the boundaries of protected journalism. The indictment levels plausible allegations that may also justify his arrest, that Lemon obstructed worshipers trying to leave the church, that he participated in pre planning of the event, and that he aided the protesters in concealing their plans from the public. In his own videos, Lemon reminds protesters not to give away where they were headed. On camera, it should go without saying, but someone performing real journalism doesn't offer advice to suppress information so one can carry out their plans without consequences. On camera, he interviews a pastor from the church, very obviously asking bad faith questions and repeating talking points from the very activists he purports to be covering as an objective journalist. As he leans in toward the pastor, who appears understandably uncomfortable being suddenly surrounded by cameras and microphones in his church, Lemon tells him, please don't push me. When the man's hand appears to make contact with Lemon's arm, it certainly didn't look like a push. Again, Lemon is leaning into the pastor's face, telling him that people have the right to assemble even though they don't have the right to assemble in a church, and then ignoring the pastor's request that they leave the premises. Watching the entire sequence, Lemon does not look like a good faith actor, and in my eyes, certainly not a sympathetic character. Lemon seemed to hide behind his title of journalist while openly supporting what he purported to be neutrally observant. You don't have to take that from me. While inside the church on his live stream, with worshipers scrambling behind him to find their kids and get out of the church, Lemon informed his audience that you have to be willing to go into places and disrupt and make people uncomfortable. That's what this country is about, is this journalism? Since he posted his church disruption video, Lemon has been daring the DOJ to arrest him, saying they'd make him the new Jimmy Kimmel. Well, after several tries, they made good on that invitation on Friday, which of course isn't much to celebrate either. Lemon can be an unsympathetic character, while his arrests can also fit into a larger, more unsettling pattern of the Trump administration cracking down on free speech. From frivolous lawsuits against news organizations to deporting college students for op eds, Trump has made it clear he'll use any tool at his disposal to silence and destroy people who criticize him. Here he got an opportunity to go after a longtime critic, someone he's openly loathed for years, and he did not hesitate to take that opportunity. Now the question of whether Lemon violated the law will come down to specific allegations in the indictment, like whether or not, by the definitions of the statutes the government is using, he blocked worshipers from leaving the church. The DOJ will also ask what Lemon knew and when. He insisted he didn't know what was going to happen, though on his own livestream, he said, we kind of do, but we don't know how it's going to play out. And the indictment alleges he attended planning meetings before the disruption. Lemon's communications with the activist groups will be pored over and analyzed against his later statements. My suspicion is that the bar to convict will be too high, which is why these charges were initially dismissed by multiple judges. Crucial to the government's case against Lemon will be proving that he obstructed churchgoers who were trying to get out of the building. In the videos Lemon posted and others online, I haven't seen evidence of them that Lemon did post up outside the church and even near doorways while trying to ask attendees questions. But did he prevent anyone from leaving? Did he force them to take different routes to get out? Was he intentionally trying to block them? That case seems much harder to prove. Even writers on the right who are very critical of Lemon's actions concede that a conviction seems hard to fathom. Similarly, I think it will be hard to peg Lemon for organizing or coordinating the event simply by attending organization or coordination meetings. That, too, seems like something he could reasonably call an act of journalism, even if his advising protesters veered into a form of activism on its own. All of this applies to Georgia Fort, a lesser known reporter who was also arrested and whose actions have not obviously crossed into criminal territory based on What I've seen that Lemon and Fort probably won't be convicted is a good thing, as I'd much rather have a country that errs toward protecting a free press from government charges than the opposite. Unfortunately, the whole affair will probably make Lemon and this gonzo activist style of journalism even more popular. He'll become a martyr, just like he wanted. In an ideal world, this shouldn't even enter the partisan spin cycle. Lemon's credibility as a reporter should be permanently destroyed. Any of the activists who could be credibly charged under the FACE act should face charges because people in places of worship shouldn't have to fear this kind of intrusion. And the Trump administration should stop sending federal agents to roundup journalists for their admittedly poor behavior. We don't live in that world, but I sure wish we did. All right, that is it. For my take, I'm going to send it over to Audrey Moorhead, our associate editor, for a dissent.
- [27:04]
Audrey Moorhead
This is Associate Editor Audrey Moorhead with the staff. Dissent. I think Isaac's take ignores the central question of this issue, which is whether the Face act under which Lemon and others have been charged is constitutional. Several of Lemon's actions constitute plausible violations of the Face Act. I am in court alongside the other protesters, but that ought not to be the purview of the federal government. While I vehemently oppose their actions, these protesters were ultimately attempting to exercise nonviolent civil disobedience. The same is true of the dozens of pro life protesters tried under the Face act during the Biden administration, some of whom President Trump pardoned earlier this year. The simple truth is that the Face act stretches the bounds of the federal government's authority to restrict speech, and it's often unevenly applied against either pro life activists or now against agitators at churches. I hope Lemon's case makes its way to the Supreme Court and results in the unconstitutional law being thrown out.
- [28:04]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [28:10]
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- [29:33]
Isaac Saul
All right, thanks Audrey and now for your questions answered. This one's from Nadi in Vacaville, California who said curious if y' all are monitoring the FBI rate of Fulton County Election Office and what y' all make of it. Yes, it's on our radar to catch anyone up who missed it. Last month, FBI agents executed a court authorized search warrant at the Fulton County Elections Hub in Operations center in Union City, Georgia. They seized approximately 700 boxes of ballots, voter rolls and related records from the 2020 presidential election. The full details of the warrant are not yet available. The search appears to be in relation to President Trump's repeated claims that the 2020 presidential election was stolen as recently as two weeks ago in Davos, Switzerland. Trump said that people will be prosecuted for what they did in the 2020 election, further corroborating the belief that the search and seizure is related to Trump's claims. Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard was personally in Fulton county overseeing the efforts. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche could not offer a specific reason for Gabbard's presence other than a broad statement about elections. I don't know why the director was there, but she is for sure a key part of our efforts at election integrity and making sure we have free and fair elections, Blanche said, Our take here is simple. We haven't seen proof that the 2020 election was stolen and any legal action taken to justify this seizure should have a solid legal backing, which seems dubious in this case. All right, that is it for your questions answered. I'm gonna send it back to John for the rest of the podcast and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.
- [31:15]
John Lowell
Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. On Tuesday, the National Transportation Safety Board unanimously approved a determination that the Federal Aviation Administration authorized a dangerous route for military helicopters near Ronald Reagan National Airport contributing to the helicopter passenger jet crash on January 29, 2025. The determination follows a one year investigation into the deadly crash near Washington, D.C. that killed 67 people. The NTSB also found that the FAA ignored multiple requests to reduce the airport's traffic, which often forced air traffic controllers to redirect inbound planes to land on a backup Runway that was in proximity to the helicopter corridor. The board did not fault the pilots of either aircraft, saying that they never likely saw each other and were not adequately warned by air traffic control. The New York Times has this story and there's a link in today's episode description and last but not least, our have a nice day story in 2027, just 54 years after you might have jammed out to Pink Floyd's dark side of the Moon on the radio astronomers are preparing to land the first US Spacecraft on the dark side of the moon, the apparatus named Lucy Night, the Lunar Surface Electromagnetics Experiment. Knight will help astronomers better understand phenomena such as dark matter, dark energy, neutron stars and gravitational waves. We don't even know what the radio sky looks like at these frequencies without the sun in the sky. I think that's what Lucy Knight will give us, stuart Bale, a UC Berkeley physicist and NASA Nassau's principal investigator for the project, said. IEEE Spectrum has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description all right everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, please go to readtangle.com, where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'.
- [33:10]
Tangle Podcast Intro
All.
- [33:10]
Isaac Saul
Peace Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Sol, and our Executive Editor Executive Producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editors Audrey Moorhead, Lindsey Knuth and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com.
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