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- [00:01]
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- [01:42]
Isaac Saul
From executive producer Isaac Saul.
- [01:45]
Tangle
This is Tangle.
- [01:56]
Isaac Saul
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. Welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode we're going to be talking about Elon Musk's little breakup with Donald Trump. I don't know what to call it. There's a trouble in paradise, I guess you could say. We're going to fill you in on what's been happening and share some views from the left and the right. And then my take before we jump in though, quick heads up on a couple things. First of all, we've got Will tagging in for John on the podcast today because John's a bit under the weather. And two, I am going to be publishing tomorrow in lieu of a Friday edition on some reader feedback, an interview with Jonah Platt, maybe Jonah Platt interviewing me kind of on the Tangled podcast. That episode should be coming out tomorrow. On Friday we're going to talk about the Zionism piece. And I know Jonah has some disagreements with me, so I thought it'd be fun to have him on and chat it up. And I encourage you guys to check that out. All right. With that, I'm going to send it over to Will for today's main story and I'll be back for my take.
- [03:15]
Tangle
Thanks, Isaac. This is senior editor Will Kaback. I'm filling in for John on the podcast today. Let's jump right in with today's quick hits. Number one, President Donald Trump signed a proclamation barring travel to the United States by citizens of Afghanistan, Myanmar, Chad, the Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. Number two, President Trump signed an executive order revoking Harvard University's permission to host incoming international students. Separately, the Department of Education said that Columbia University has failed to meet accreditation standards due to alleged, quote, violation of federal anti discrimination laws. Number three, Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said he would not accept the United States proposal that Iran abandon its uranium enrichment as part of a nuclear deal. Separately, President Trump spoke with Russian President Vladimir Putin and reported that Putin plans to respond to Ukraine's recent drone strikes on Russian airfields. Number four, President Trump directed the counsel to the president and Attorney General Pam Bondi to investigate former President Joe Biden's end of term actions due to purported questions about his mental state. The order specifically identifies Biden's judicial appointments, pardons and executive actions as subject to investigation. Number five, A federal judge temporarily blocked the deportation of the wife and five children of Mohamed Saliman, who was accused of carrying out the attack on a Jewish community group in Boulder, Colorado. The order bars their deportations while legal challenges play out.
- [05:07]
Elon Musk
Welcome back. Elon Musk taking aim at President Trump's big beautiful bill. This is it. Faces a lot of opposition from Republicans in the Senate. Musk posting on X I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. You know it.
- [05:30]
Tangle
On Tuesday, former White House advisor Elon Musk escalated his criticisms of the budget reconciliation, quote, big beautiful bill passed by the House of Representatives and he called it a disgusting abomination, though he did not mention President Donald Trump by name. Musk's comments underscore a growing divide between the tech CEO and the president, who aggressively lobbied for the bill and remains supportive of it. Musk delivered the criticism as he departed his official role as a special government employee leading the Department of Government Efficiency. Doge for context on May 22, the House passed the One Big Beautiful Bill act in a 215 to 214 vote, advancing a series of Trump administration priorities, including a permanent extension of the 2017 tax cuts, additional funding for border security and Medicaid reforms. The Senate is currently considering the bill and is expected to make significant changes from the House version, which the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office recently estimated would add $2.4 trillion to the national deficit over the next decade. In recent weeks, Musk has expressed displeasure with the bill, saying he was, quote, disappointed with its financial impact and suggesting it would undermine his work with Doge. Musk continued his criticisms of the spending package on Wednesday, posting quot this immense level of overspending will drive America into debt slavery, end quote. On Tuesday, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt responded to the comments, saying, quote, the President already knows where Elon Musk stood on this bill. It doesn't change the President's opinion, end quote. The criticisms come at the end of Musk's tenure in the administration, which was defined by aggressive efforts to cut federal spending and reduce the government workforce. After initially setting a goal of $2 trillion in cuts, and Musk reduced the target to $1 trillion and then $150 billion, Doge claims to have generated $180 billion in savings to date, though that figure is widely disputed. Furthermore, some nonpartisan analysts have projected that the downstream effects of Doge's cuts will actually cost $135 billion this fiscal year. As a special government employee, which is an unpaid advisory position, Musk was allowed to work up to 130 days in the administration for the calendar year. While he reportedly asked the White House to stay in this role beyond this timeframe, his request was not approved and he officially left his role on May 28th. Today we'll share views from the right and left on Musk's criticism of the Big Beautiful Bill and his tenure in the Trump administration. Ben My take.
- [08:12]
Will Kaback
Foreign.
- [08:20]
Isaac Saul
We'Ll be right back after this quick break.
- [08:23]
Wild Grain
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- [09:29]
Isaac Saul
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- [10:24]
Tangle
All right, let's get into what the right is saying now. The right is mixed on Musk's comments, with many agreeing with his points about the bill but questioning his delivery. Some criticize Musk for how he's handled his departure from the administration. Others say Musk's tenure accomplished little except tarnishing his own image. In Fox News, David Marcus wrote Musk vs. Maga on the Big Beautiful Bill, but the GOP needs both. Last week there were rumblings that Elon Musk had reservations about President Donald Trump's so called Big Beautiful bill. This week, Musk, shall we say, clarified his position, calling the legislation a disgusting abomination, Marcus said. And yes, his concerns that this bill now in the Senate could balloon the national debt, though disputed by the White House, are not particularly far fetched. The problem for those like Musk who want to see the bill revamped to cut the debt is not just that GOP margins in Congress are as narrow as a coin slot. It's that Trump's base, the only group of people he consistently pleases, like the bill, and they like it a lot. This is a real impasse between Musk and Trump's base, and Musk has proven to be a very valuable ally, not just for Trump, but for the GOP in general. Musk also has the money needed to bankroll any campaign he chooses to and conversely, to use that money to primary those Republicans he deems ineffective on the debt, a threat he made explicit this week, Marcus wrote. Money carries a lot of water, but at the end of the day, if you are a candidate for Congress in a GOP primary, what do you want more, a blank check from Elon Musk or an endorsement from Donald Trump? For now, obviously the latter. In town hall, Matt Vespa called Musk's comments, quote, totally unnecessary. As the budget reconciliation battle rages on the Hill, Elon Musk, who has left his position as senior adviser to President Trump, has broken his silence about the big, beautiful bill. He hates it, vespa said. It was unnecessary. And part of me thinks the billionaire entrepreneur and Tesla CEO is venting over congressional Republicans, not codifying the cuts he and the Department of Government efficiency highlighted for months. However, that cannot be done through reconciliation. No doubt that is disappointing, but let's not nuke a bill that accomplishes what most Republicans want. It makes the Trump tax cuts permanent and provides a mountain of cash for border security and immigration measures. It's not perfect. Nothing is from D.C. but remember the old saying, perfect is the enemy of good, vespa wrote. Trump also trained his fire on one Republican who is bound to give us agita in the Senate. Senator Rand Paul, a Republican from Kentucky who very much seems at peace with slapping working families with a massive tax hike if this bill fails. In National Review, Jeffrey Blahar asked, what did Elon Musk actually accomplish except his own downfall? One can only imagine how unhappy the Trump administration is with this, especially since several Senate lawmakers have used the opportunity afforded by Elon's apostasy to poke their heads out from behind his protective skirt and chip in with their own reservations, blair said. Perhaps Trump may just let Elon stew online rather than provoke a MAGA civil war. Perhaps not. Regardless of whether fireworks follow, this was always the way the story was going to end. There is something extremely depressing about this denouement. Musk entered the MAGA orbit with high hopes vaingloriously high, perhaps, but born of a genuine commitment to fixing inefficiencies. And he departs it, leaving little but wreckage behind him. Not only has Doge's fizzle out muted the idea of government spending reform for the foreseeable future, Musk has mortgaged his own public reputation and future prospects for little perceptible gain, blair wrote. Although he is distancing himself from Trump now, his original progressive fans will forever hold him as the man who got Trump elected, partly responsible for what Trump does regardless. Alright, let's move on to what the left is saying. The left says that Musk leaves the government in worse shape than he found it. Some suggest his criticisms of the reconciliation bill are driven by self interest. Others say Musk will continue to exert influence on the administration. The Philadelphia Inquirer editorial board wrote, Elon Musk is putting the Doge chainsaw down, but the damage has been done. Doge was supposed to weed out waste, fraud and abuse, but instead turn into a wasteful, fraudulent and abusive exercise. Musk did grave damage while finding little to no savings and making the government more inefficient, the board said. Initially, Musk promised to slash $2 trillion in spending but quickly lowered that estimate to $1 trillion. In the end, after all the chainsaw waving, he only cut $160 billion. That paltry sum, by federal standards, about 2.3% of the nearly $7 trillion budget doesn't include the 135 billion in estimated severance costs to taxpayers or the litigation fees and lost tax collection from cuts to the IRS staff. Musk's dismantling of foreign aid programs through the U.S. agency for International Development has already led to an estimated 300,000 deaths, most of them children. More than 250,000 federal employees have been fired or bought out, according to one estimate, leaving many to battle mental health and stress issues. More than 8,500 and 10,000 grants were terminated with little to no thought of the repercussions, the board wrote. Perhaps more consequential is the slashing of jobs and more than $2.6 billion in contracts at the National Institutes of Health, upending medical research and clinical trials aimed at finding cures for diseases like Alzheimer's cancer and aids. In Slate, Jim Newell said Musk picked the most vapid criticism of Trump's bill. Musk's sneak attack ultimately reinforces why it's a relief that he's no longer directly involved in government and why he should continue to be pushed as far as way as possible. His criticism of it as a pork filled bill is an especially unusual approach. Pork is a catch all word used to describe wasteful spending, often doled out to special interest groups, newell wrote. But pork is not the issue with the bill. In dollars and cents, the bill cuts taxes to the tune of 3.7 trillion over the next 10 years and cuts spending $1.3 trillion, increasing the deficit by 2.4 trillion. The biggest spending measures in the bill are defense upgrades and a massive boost for border security and internal immigration enforcement. Things Musk should like if Musk is crying pork for the same reason most people do to try to kill a bill they dislike for any old reason, then why does he want to kill it? There's been some reporting to back up House Speaker Mike Johnson's speculation that the loss of electric vehicle tax credits has consumed Musk, Newell said. Even if you support electric vehicle tax incentives, it's a problem that a guy who doesn't really understand what's going on has this much power. It's a problem that because of his net worth and lack of filter, he can get in a momentary snit, burp out an angry post and send Washington scurrying. In the Daily Beast, Paul Waldman suggested Elon Musk isn't really leaving the White House. To some, it seems Musk is moving on from his role as one of the main and most polarizing characters in our current political drama. It might be pressure from shareholders, or it might be the shock of what happened last month in Wisconsin. Musk invested millions of dollars in the hope of electing a conservative to the state Supreme Court, and he put his personal brand on the line in public appearances. His candidate lost badly, and he may have come to the realization that voters don't really like him, waldman wrote. But don't think Musk is done with exercising his considerable influence over our government and the people who work in it. He will be a dangerous force in our politics for the foreseeable future. Does anyone really think he'll sit on the sidelines in the next election when his billions could ensure another friendly executive branch? He, his people and his interests have burrowed deeply into the government, and he has too much at stake to let their clout wash away or be uprooted, waldman said. Furthermore, muskism as a governing philosophy, the assumption that just about everything government does is bad and should be undermined, is still in force. Republicans have adopted it as a kind of berserker version of their traditional small government conservatism. All right, and with that, I'm going to hand it over to Isaac for his take and the reader question.
- [19:34]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for the left and the writer saying, which brings us to my take. If this is a breakup, I would say it's certainly one of the most predictable political breakups I've ever seen. Last week on the Sunday podcast, we discussed Musk's departure from Doge and his time as a government employee. One of the things I brought up was that Musk could have exited the federal government quietly while celebrating a series of crowning achievements. But instead, as of Thursday's recording last week, he had started soft pedaling some new criticism of the administration in just a few days. He had gone on CBS Sunday Morning and criticized the Big Beautiful Bill, saying a bill could be big or beautiful, but he was unsure if it could be both. He said that he agreed with much of the administration's actions, but disagreed on some and had to be careful about stating that disagreement. And he told a separate interviewer that he was not planning to spend more money in politics because he had done enough. This left me wondering aloud if we were about to see a more serious rupture in the relationship. This week. Musk didn't waste time giving us the answer. He's been on an absolute tear against Trump and the gop, describing their signature legislation in some of the harshest terms possible insane debt, slavery, a disgusting abomination and the largest increase in the debt ceiling in U.S. history. And he has said that Americans should fire all politicians who betrayed the American people. He added, I suppose for clarity's sake, that bankrupting America is not okay. He's rolling out the classic Muskie and memes against it like Kill the Bill and posting images of Kill Bill, the film, reposting images of trains labeled Trump's Big Beautiful Bill smashing into buses labeled Savings from Doge. And of course, Musk is right. As I've been saying, the Big Beautiful Bill is an absolute deficit and debt bomb. It is a near complete betrayal of many of the things Trump promised he would do. It would add more to the national debt than the 2017 tax cuts, the Pandemic Cares Act, Biden's stimulus and the Inflation Reduction act combined. It would run large annual deficits Even under optimistic economic forecasts, the budget models that predict this outcome are reliable and have proven track records, including successfully predicting the outcome of Trump's 2017 tax bill. So we should take these warnings seriously. That Musk is only now taking this tack is both interesting and frustrating. The general premise of the bill has been circulating for months, and if Musk wanted to use his leverage to stop it, then he could have been more effective pressuring House Republicans before the bill even passed the lower chamber and while he was still working in government. Does this opposition even matter now? It's unclear to me. As much as this might be lowbrow pull, Musk v. Trump is the kind of heavyweight political fight that very much piques my interest. Trump wants this bill to pass. Musk wants the bill to die. Both will leverage money, political support, threats, memoirs and blustery comments to the press to get their wish. Who comes out on top? For the record, my money's always on Trump, but I don't think Musk's influence should be underestimated. Naturally, Elon's total lambasting of the GOP and the Trump administration is having the magical effect of allowing all his targets to say how they really feel. Republican lawmakers have run to the media to anonymously trash Musk as a complete joke who had no idea what he was doing and nobody really wanted him there. Other Republicans are speculating that Musk only hates the bill because it eliminates tax credits for Tesla, which hey, I'm glad we're all being honest now. Musk is right about the bill and right about the GOP lawmakers who cosplay as budget hawks whenever Democrats are in office, then completely abandon any pretense of solving our debt or deficit crisis once they have unmitigated power. That's with the exception of some people like the cantankerous Kentuckians Rand Paul and Thomas Massie, who are at least principled and consistent. Likewise, the GOP lawmakers are right about Musk. Doge was a near total and complete failure. Its savings were a tiny fraction of what Musk promised, even after he revised his projections downward. And odds are better than even that Doge has actually cost the taxpayers money by giving out so much severance and inviting so many legal challenges and causing so much dysfunction that it left behind a less efficient government. Republicans and Democrats are also right to criticize Musk for happily taking government contracts with SpaceX while close to the president. And they're right to question his real motivations for lashing out of the bill. That didn't provide a lucrative Federal Aviation Authority contract to Starlink or extend electric vehicle credits for Tesla, so Musk probably cost the taxpayers money with Doge missed the once in a generation opportunity to actually reduce fraud and waste, and did nothing until now to stop the far more important budget busting bill Republicans and Trump have been pushing for months now. What? I honestly have no idea where this goes, which is at least exciting. Even before Musk entered the fray, I thought this bill would run into some real speed bumps in the Senate. Now that some House members have finally read the bill, apparently after voting for it, they seem to be worried about its content and are demanding changes. The bill's prospects of passage become even more tenuous with Musk thumbing the scale. If you believe that the MAGA embrace of Musk is genuine, the bill could die with increased pressure on Republican lawmakers from their constituents who take Musk's message to heart. However, the GOP could hold together and draw Trump into the fight to pass the bill, which would ostracize Musk from MAGA altogether. Or potentially, this is the last time we hear from Musk about this bill, and Trump and Musk enter a new, uncomfortable period of silent detente. As of now, Trump hasn't responded directly to any of Musk's potshots. To me, how and when he does that will determine the direction of this intraparty fracas. I'm still skeptical Musk has enough political sway to make a meaningful dent in the grip Trump has on the party. But I'm also keenly aware that I underestimated his influence heading into the 2024 election and left that experience with some egg on my face. One thing is for sure though. Musk seems hell bent on making an already difficult to pass bill much more difficult to pass and and Republicans are still far from the finish line on getting the requisite votes to make their budget plans law. We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [26:04]
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- [26:29]
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- [27:09]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. Every now and then we use this section to revisit story from the past so this week we had a note to ourselves to check in on last year's Mexican elections. We had published a piece about a year ago on Mexico electing Claudia Sheinbaum as president, and yesterday we included the Mexican judicial elections in a quick hit. So we thought it was a good time to explore Sheinbaum's first year and check in on the Mexican electorate. The former Mexico City mayor and climate scientist was elected last year with just under 60% of the vote and now enjoys a an approval rating of over 80%. Her term has so far been defined by a few distinct policies and events. First, judicial reforms. Sheinbaum pushed the legislature to reduce the number of supreme court justices from 11 to nine and institute election by popular vote for federal and state judges in Mexico. Starting with elections this year on June 1, only 13% of the electorate voted, and those who did participate elected a slate of justices aligned with Sheinbaum's Moreno China Party. Second, the country's relationship with the United States. So far this year, Sheinbaum has pushed back against Trump's proposed tariffs and his designation of cartels as terrorist organizations. However, she has also ramped up the federal police force to fight against the cartels and increase cooperation with US Intelligence agencies. Her pushback against Trump has won her plaudits within Mexico, while her security efforts earned praise from Trump and Homeland Security Secretary Secretary Krissy Noem. President Sheinbaum has also expanded social welfare programs and increased the minimum wage, is pushing a progressive environmental agenda and dissolved autonomous regulatory federal agencies. While she is proving to be popular with the electorate, critics worry that she is consolidating too much power within the government and could be eroding Mexico's democracy. All right, that is it for your questions answered, which was a little revisitation of some past coverage today. I'm going to send it back to Will for the rest of the podcast and I'll see you guys tomorrow for my interview with Jonah Platt. Have a good one. Peace.
- [29:21]
Tangle
Thanks, Isaac. Now for our under the Radar story. Today on Tuesday, the Justice Department announced charges against two Chinese nationals for allegedly attempting to transport a toxic fungus classified as a dangerous biological pathogen into the United States. The fungus causes head blight disease in wheat, barley, corn and other crops, and the toxins it produces can cause vomiting and liver damage in humans. The two people arrested were studying biological pathogens that can infect crops. One of the suspects was stopped at Detroit Metropolitan Airport and questioned by Customs and Border Protection officers who found plastic bags containing strands of the fungus in his backpack. Prosecutors say the electronic communications between the two show that they communicated about moving biological material beforehand and may have previously smuggled seeds into the US The Washington Post has the story and you can check it out in the episode description for today's episode all right, and here are some numbers about today's main story. 130 that's the maximum number of days that a special government employee, which was Elon Musk's designation in the Trump administration, can work in the government during a 365 day period, minus 5.7% that's Elon Musk's net favorability on January 20, 2025, according to an aggregate of polls by Silver Bulletin minus 13.9% Musk's net favorability on June 4, 2025 plus 4.0% Musk's net favorability on Jun 4, 2024 $170 billion that's the total amount of savings that were claimed by the Department of Government efficiency of on May 22, 2025 $70.9 billion that's the sum of savings that were listed on Doge's website on May 22 $41.2 billion that's the sum of savings that had any documentation attached for verification on May 22. This is all according to a study done by Sky News. 6296 that's the number of government employees laid off by Doge in 2025, according to layoffs. FYI 171,843 that's the total federal worker departures in 2025. And finally our have a nice day story. A deli and grocery store in Staten Island, New York. Incentivizes kids to get good grades by making them an offer. Improve your grades or maintain good ones and take home free goodies from the store. Wael Asewit, co owner and manager of the store, started the Report card incentive in 2023 to help his 12 year old neighbor make the honor roll, which eventually he did. The initiative has gained support from social media with a GoFundMe raising nearly $50,000. Today has the story, which you can also find in our episode description. Alright, that's it for today's edition. As always, if you want to support us further, head on over to readtangle.com and consider signing up for the newsletter. Otherwise, we will be back tomorrow with our Friday edition. Have a great day and talk to you then.
- [32:33]
Isaac Saul
Our Executive Editor and Founder is me, Isaac Saul and our Executive Producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kaback and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Saul, Lindsey Knuth and Kendall West. White music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
- [33:11]
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- [33:58]
Meltzer Hell Rung
The perfect candidate, but it turns out they need a work visa and the thought of hiring foreign nationals in these turbulent times is intimidating. With Meltzer Hell Rung, hiring global talent isn't just possible, it's fast and achievable. We combine expert high touch immigration services with our innovative immigration management technology platform to guide you every step of the way. From hiring your first foreign national employee to building a global team, we make immigration clear, compliant and efficient. Open your hiring to a world of talent. Sign up For Meltzer Hell Rung's free weekly news alert emails and monthly webinars@meltzerhellrung.com.
- [34:32]
Paige Desorba
Hi, it's Dani Pellegrino from Everything Iconic and I couldn't help but wonder when is the official and Just like that podcast coming back? Well, it's back baby. And Just like that is back on Max. And so is the official podcast. Each week on in Just like that the writers room join writer, director and executive producer Michael Patrick King as he unpacks every episode after it airs on Max. Listen to and just like that, the writers room on Max or wherever you get your podcasts.