FULL EPISODE - Isaac interviews Jonah Platt about Zionism.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Tangle – Isaac Saul Interviews Jonah Platt on Zionism

Episode Title: FULL EPISODE - Isaac interviews Jonah Platt about Zionism
Release Date: June 6, 2025
Host: Isaac Saul
Guest: Jonah Platt, Host of the Being Jewish Podcast

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Tangle, host Isaac Saul engages in a deep and nuanced conversation with Jonah Platt, the host of the Being Jewish podcast. The discussion centers around Zionism—a topic that intertwines personal beliefs, political ideologies, and historical contexts. Both Isaac and Jonah delve into the complexities of Zionism, its current state, and its implications for both Jews and Palestinians.

Defining Zionism

Isaac Saul initiates the conversation by grappling with his personal relationship with Zionism, questioning whether it remains a movement or has transformed into a political ideology he wishes to associate with:

“I published this piece almost a week ago today about grappling with my Zionism and questioning whether it was a movement or a political ideology I wanted to be a part of anymore...” ([03:15])

Jonah Platt seeks clarity on Zionism's definition to ensure a grounded discussion:

“How you define Zionism, because that's I think that's super important and informs a lot of what you're talking about...” ([04:59])

Isaac Saul defines Zionism as:

“Zionism is a political ideology or political movement for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, a Jewish state.” ([05:21])

Personal Journey with Zionism

Isaac shares his introspective journey, highlighting his support for a Jewish homeland while wrestling with the current political climate in Israel:

“I'm struggling with the reality of are the things that we're seeing now in the present day a product of the pursuit of that goal?” ([06:08])

Jonah echoes similar sentiments, emphasizing the importance of distinguishing between Zionism as a historical movement and the current government's policies:

“I don't actually think that even talking about Zionism in the context that you are is useful because Zionism is, you know, it achieved its goal.” ([06:08])

Current State of Zionism and Israeli Policies

The conversation delves into the present-day policies of Israel and their alignment with Zionist principles. Isaac expresses discomfort with recent Israeli government actions, particularly a poll indicating that a significant majority of Zionist Jews support the clearance of Gaza:

“Something like north of 80% of them responded in this poll that they believed that Israel should clear out the population of Gaza and reoccupy it just...” ([12:32])

Jonah challenges the conflation of Zionism with extremist policies, arguing that not all Zionists advocate for such measures:

“It's not Zionism. I don't know, I just, I've never thought about, I've never seen it framed that way.” ([23:15])

Polls and Public Opinion

Isaac references polling data to underscore his concerns about the direction of Zionism within Israel:

“8 in 10 Zionist Jews in Israel believe in what I think is definitionally an ethnic cleansing of Gaza.” ([12:32])

Jonah responds by questioning the definition of Zionism, suggesting that associating it with extremist policies is a misrepresentation:

“The definition of Zionism is not Jewish homeland by any means necessary. That is not part of it and never has been.” ([44:23])

Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism Clarifications

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the delicate balance between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Jonah firmly distinguishes between legitimate criticism of Zionist policies and anti-Semitic sentiments:

“There are anti-Zionist Jews. I don't think they're like self-hating anti Semitic Jews.” ([68:44])

Isaac counters by arguing that opposing Jewish sovereignty inherently targets Jewish self-determination:

“If you're saying that Jews of all the peoples on earth should not have sovereignty, should not be able to rule themselves... that's very... that's very anti Jewish.” ([74:09])

Jonah refutes this by emphasizing the complexity of the issue and the presence of diverse Jewish voices:

“There are anti Zionist Jews... they view the project of a Jewish homeland as being dangerous or negative for some reason.” ([71:45])

Historical Context: The Nakba and Israel's Formation

Isaac brings historical perspectives into the conversation, discussing the Nakba—the displacement of Palestinians during Israel's establishment:

“There's a story that the Palestinians tell themselves about the Nakba and the displacement...” ([59:25])

Jonah provides clarity on the origin and original intent behind the term Nakba, differentiating it from its contemporary usage:

“The first time that word Nakba is used was by, I believe it was a Syrian writer...” ([59:25])

He argues that the term was initially meant to describe strategic failures rather than portraying it as a vindictive act:

“It was our handling of this situation was a disaster because we thought we could leave, these guys would all get killed...” ([59:25])

Paths to Peace and Future Outlook

The discussion shifts towards potential pathways to peace, with both hosts acknowledging the profound challenges and entrenched sentiments on both sides.

Isaac questions the feasibility of peace amidst prevailing distrust and violence:

“The path toward peace that Israel is taking or the path toward deterrence that Israel is taking is so fundamentally broken...” ([19:22])

Jonah remains cautiously optimistic, suggesting that leadership changes could pave the way for new approaches:

“If there was an election today, he'd be gone... something is going to be different.” ([50:04])

Conclusion

In the concluding segments, Isaac and Jonah reflect on the importance of nuanced dialogue and the ongoing evolution of their own perspectives. Isaac acknowledges the value of dissenting voices within the Zionist movement and the necessity of internal reform:

“It's a privilege to be able to hold in a space where you are anti Zionist, because that's just a sign that there's enough security for the Jewish people...” ([69:10])

Jonah encourages elevating the discourse around Zionism, emphasizing thoughtful and constructive conversations over blanket condemnations:

“I'm glad you are doing what you do, and I could care less if we disagree or not. I just appreciate you being thoughtful and that we're having these kinds of conversations.” ([81:23])

Both hosts express a commitment to continued dialogue, recognizing the complexity of Zionism and its impact on contemporary geopolitics.

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Notable Quotes:

• “I think Zionism is a political ideology that is producing a bad outcome...” — Isaac Saul ([06:08])
• “Anti Zionism, I think it's automatically anti-Semitism...” — Adam Grant ([44:23])
• “The existence of anti Zionism is a very strong signal of a healthy, good, safe period of time for Jews...” — Isaac Saul ([68:43])
• “We have rules so that we can maintain and make sure that we're safe and not being overrun...” — Isaac Saul ([19:22])

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This episode of Tangle offers a thought-provoking exploration of Zionism, balancing personal reflections with broader political analyses. Through respectful discourse, Isaac Saul and Jonah Platt navigate the intricate landscape of Zionism, its historical roots, and its current manifestations, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of one of today's most contentious political ideologies.

Transcript

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[Isaac Saul]

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[Adam Grant]

From executive producer Isaac Saul.

[Jonah Platt]

This is Tangle.

[Isaac Saul]

Good morning, good afternoon, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast. A place to get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Stahl, and we are here today with Jonah Platt. Jonah is the host of the Being Jewish podcast, which you guys might remember. I went on last year. We promoted the episode a bit in Tangle and on our social channels and stuff. It was A really fun conversation. Huge fan of what Jonah is doing and glad to have him on the show today. Jonah, welcome to the Tangle podcast.

[Adam Grant]

Isaac, thank you so much. Love switching seats here.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, it's gonna be fun. I'm looking forward to it, though. I feel like this will end up like another Jonah interviewing Isaac episode. We'll see how it goes.

[Adam Grant]

That's fair.

[Isaac Saul]

I think it's worth setting the table here a little bit. So for people who are Tangled readers and listeners, I think they've been very in tune and in touch with what has happened over the last week or so. I published this piece almost a week ago today about grappling with my Zionism and questioning whether it was a movement or a political ideology I wanted to be a part of anymore and writing a lot about some of Israel's actions and how I became a Zionist. And this sort of personal story interwoven with the post October 7th world. And not long after I had published a piece, you reached out to me via text message and were like, I want to talk about this. Like, let's chat. I follow your work pretty extensively, so I have some assumptions about maybe where you land on some of the things that I wrote and some. And I'm assuming that we have some disagreement, but I thought it would be very much in the tangled spirit to just have that conversation publicly and have you on the show. I mean, something I said in the piece was that I wanted to invite criticism and feedback and thoughts and sort of make this more of a dialogue, because I'm grappling with this stuff publicly in real time. And you sort of created a very low friction way for me to do that by just inviting you on the show to talk about this stuff. So that's basically why you're here. For the fans of yours who are following and might not have read the piece, they can find it in the show notes or by going to readtangle.com, the headline is I think I'm leaving Zionism. Or maybe Zionism is Leaving me. And yeah, I guess maybe I'll lob it to you to start with just like initial reactions or thoughts or questions that you feel like are worth picking at. Totally.

[Adam Grant]

So the place where I want to start really is how you define Zionism, because that's. I think that's super important and informs a lot of what you're talking about. So I want to be perfectly clear, just as a. As a reader, of what exactly in your mind Zionism is, because unfortunately today there's like a thousand different meanings Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

I mean, I think the. The definition that I sort of subscribe to is that Zionism is a political ideology or political movement for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, a Jewish state. So the rub there for me is like, I believe in the necessity, cause, project of a Jewish state, a Jewish homeland, but the political movement is the thing that is Zionism. And I think what I'm struggling with a bit is like, whether that specific movement as it exists today as we sit here in 2025, is something that I'm proud of, still, or want to be part of still or feel like is connected to my views on the kind of present day, I guess.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, so then I guess the two things that I would sort of poke at with that are. The first is, Israel exists, right? So, like, it has existed for almost 80 years. So, you know, I actually talked about this on my podcast. I hate the word Zionism because I don't like the. I don't like the framing of should this place that exists exist or not? Because it already does and it has, and it's not gonna stop existing. However, whatever conversations anybody has, it's, you know, it's not going anywhere. So I already, like, I, you know, poke at that sort of definition of it, of, like, am I for or against the existence of this place? But more importantly, really for this conversation. The second part is it sounds to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you're sort of conflating the idea of let's have a Jewish state with the politics and policies and let's say, looks like the path they're going on of Israel's current government, as opposed to necessarily the existence of a Jewish state that has sovereignty in some piece of its ancestral homeland.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. So two things. First of all, interesting, that's not what I would have expected to say about the Zionism thing. I actually very much relate to that view. I mean, one idea that I'm sort of playing with or wrestling with right now is just like, the usefulness or the utility of Zionism as a political movement or as a framework to talk about these conversations because it's like, yeah, Israel exists. It's not going to cease to exist. In many ways, Zionism achieved the goal they created the Jewish state. It's durable. And so it's almost like I had somebody say this to me. I won't mention his name publicly, but he's a prominent Jewish writer who wrote into me after the piece came out and just said, I don't actually think that even talking about Zionism in the context that you are is useful because Zionism is, you know, it achieved its goal. And we should just be talking about the policies of Israel and you should frame it that way. Right. Which I think is, yeah, interesting and helpful, I guess, in terms of the conflation. I think, for me, I see Israeli politics today and the North Star of many Israeli policies being driven by Zionism, which, you know, I talked about this in the piece. I think downstream of this idea of a Jewish homeland is the reality that you sort of need to build the ethnostate. The Jewish ethnostate, which is like. Ethnostate is obviously a nasty word in a lot of contexts. But like a majority, like the population, they want to be majority Jews. The governing coalitions, for obvious reasons, they want to be majority Jews and the laws or the ethos of the country, they want to be infiltrated with Judaism, which of course makes sense. It's a Jewish homeland. And so I'm certainly not abandoning the idea of a Jewish homeland in this piece or like saying that my belief in the necessity or the cause or the project of a Jewish state is out the window. I think I'm struggling with the reality of are the things that we're seeing now in the present day a product of the pursuit of that goal? And if they are, then what does it tell us about this iteration of the political ideology? Um, no analogy is helpful here in a lot of ways, because Zionism is such a unique pursuit and this moment in time that we're living in is so uniquely tense and awful in various ways. But to maybe strike a thought experiment like democracy produced slavery and segregation and, you know, this sort of this awful period in American history that I think everybody accepts as being manifestly terrible, but the democracy itself, that project, that ideology, that framework for running a country, was not necessarily the problem. So to sort of argue against myself here a little bit, I think if you look at Zionism through the lens of it's this political ideology that's producing a bad outcome, I think there is a good argument that the same way democracy produced slavery, Zionism produced what might be an ethnic cleansing in Gaza and not Zionism in isolation, but as a result of all these other things that Zionism is interacting with, this thing happens. Then we don't have to tear down democracy because of slavery. We don't have to tear down Zionism because I disagree with Israel's policies. We have to reform it from the inside out or work to change the outcomes. I think that's a really compelling argument. And I, I'm grappling with that. I mean, candidly, I, I, it's, I think it's a very good argument and I'm, I'm turning it over my head and trying to work my way through it, I guess is the best thing I can say.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, I, I, even in sort of hearing you talk through that, just the idea of Zionism, it sort of, again, it sounds like you're just ascribing like extra to it, like what's happening in terms of we, let's say the government wants to take over Gaza. Like that is not necessarily Zionism. I mean, Zionism is not the belief you have to take over the entire land and kick everybody out of it. That's the, you know, policies of this far right government. And also, I think it's impossible to lay blame, even if it were Zionism, on just Israel and Zionism when they're dealing with a neighbor who has tried to very literally, you know, genocide them over and over and over again for 80 years. There's, you know, it's just a way more complicated soup than it's bad that Israel is doing what it's doing now. I mean, it's, it's, yeah, it's just tough.

[Isaac Saul]

Okay, let me give you a concrete example and I'd be curious, like to hear your thoughts on this. One of the things that alarmed me when I was looking through or just like reading about the story and doing research for the piece and reading about stuff was one of these recent polls that came out of Zionist Jews in Israel that I cited in the piece where like something like north of 80% of them responded in this poll that they believed that Israel should clear out the population of Gaza and reoccupy it just, I know there's all sorts of stuff that's messy about polling Israelis and polling people who self identify as Zionist Jews, whatever it is. But let's just assume, assume for the sake of this conversation that the polling is fairly accurate and 8 in 10 Zionist Jews in Israel believe in what I think is definitionally an ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Like, doesn't that tell us that it's corrupted in some way that's maybe not irredeemable, but that is corrupted enough. I might not want to be a part of it.

[Adam Grant]

Well, I'd say two things. One is what is a Zionist Israeli? I mean, aren't all Israelis Zionists? They're living there.

[Isaac Saul]

So, you know, it's, they categorize as Zionist Jews. I don't think they were all Israelis. I Think most of them were. I think the poll was taken in Israel, so I guess they were all Israelis, but they were Zionist Jews as opposed to maybe, you know, Christians living in Israel or non, I mean, I presume there are non Zionists who live in Israel. I mean, I actually heard from some when I wrote my piece who were like, hey, I'm an Israeli and I've been struggling with my Zionism, my identity as a Zionist and I hate this government, you know, that sort of thing. Like you're still welcome here, there's more of us out there than you know. So I don't know, but that's what the poll described them as.

[Adam Grant]

So I mean, already to me again, it's like it's about that definition of Zionism. Is Zionism the politics of this government or is Zionism simply the belief that there should be this Jewish homeland? If it's the politics one, that's not how I've ever really used it, but let's say it is. Even hearing that poll, it's hard for me as somebody who doesn't live in Israel to judge it too harshly because I've never lived with a neighbor that tries to kill me every single day for 80 years. And I'm not saying that I approve of their opinion or not, but I'm saying it's very hard for me to judge. Cuz I have never been in any situation remotely like this that where members of my family or my friends have been, you know, were blown up in the Intifada. Everybody knows somebody who was killed in a cafe or on a bus or in a public square or you know, killed on October 7th. I'm having, I'm going every single day of my life I'm spending interrupted by rocket fire, going into bomb shelters. It's hard for me to judge somebody saying, you know what? I've had enough of these people. We've tried everything, it's not working. We're in the position of power now. I think that these people need to just. We gave them the land, they used it to try to kill us. They don't deserve it anymore. And again, I'm not saying I ascribe to that, but I'm saying it's hard for me to as an outsider to that experience go, well, they're morally corrupt for that thinking.

[Isaac Saul]

I guess. I mean, you're not saying you ascribe to that, but do you ascribe to that? And if not, why not? Then I guess is my question. Or if so, why?

[Adam Grant]

I don't know that I Again, like, I can't weigh in on that because that's not my lived experience. I don't know what I would feel like if, you know, Canada for the last 80 years was killing all my family members and, you know, bombing me every day. I don't know what I would feel like.

[Isaac Saul]

Okay, I, yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a really fair point. I, you know, I saw like when I lived in Israel for a brief period of time and there is tension that permeates the air even for somebody who was there basically on an extended vacation. I mean, I lived there for six months, so not like trying to pretend I was some Israeli resident. But you feel it, it's tense, it's scary, there's danger that's apparent and people talk about it and you hear the sirens to get near shelter and it's real. I think, like to your point, or maybe to my point, I guess I should say, about why I am, why I think this cycle is so devastating and why I feel like Israel has more agency and Zionists have more agency to help stop it. Is that the same thing you just said about like, everybody knows somebody's been killed in the Intifada or, you know, I'm an American Jew and I knew people who were killed in October 7th, you know, not people I had really strong personal relationships but like my, my mother in law's cousin, you know, like that kind of stuff. It was very real. But the same exact thing can be said for basically everybody living in Gaza is like, especially now after post October 7th, but even more even before then. Like I'm watching these videos of these 16 year old kids standing over the bodies of their dead parents in an Israeli strike and it's like, it is clear as day to me that the next generation of anti Israel radicals is being breeded right now, not just by the education they're getting from UNWRA in Gaza, not just by that kind of stuff that I think is we have to identify and root out and deal with, but by the reality of the war and the conflict and the back and forth. And the truth is, as uncomfortable as this makes me, like way more of them have died than us in the last two years, in the last 10 years, in the last 20 years. I mean, there is a power dynamic here that's very real. And I think despite being empathetic to your point, that the psyche of living in that I think can explain a poll like the one I'm talking about, or maybe the thing that I'm Describing as the corruption of Zionism is just the reality of living next to a neighbor like this. I think it's all the more reason to feel like the path toward peace that Israel is taking or the path toward deterrence that Israel is taking is so fundamentally broken and it's so overwhelmingly supported by self identified Zionists and Zionist Jews. And it's like, I think that's the distance in the space that I feel that makes me feel like unwelcome or out to sea or lonely or isolated inside the movement that I previously identified with.

[Adam Grant]

I hear that and again it's like when I hear you talk about it, it's like it almost sounds like somebody talking about like let's say the Democratic Party in America. Like, I don't see, I've been a Democrat my whole life, but now I'm looking at the party and I don't know if there's a place for me anymore. I feel isolated, I feel home. Because of the way they've handled anti Semitism, obviously that part's different. But it sounds like you're talking about like a political party the way you talk about Zionism as opposed to the idea of a Jewish state existing for Jewish sovereignty. I feel like it's so important to distinguish those two things and to keep them separate because whether at some point Netanyahu's going to go, I hope it's tomorrow, maybe it's not till 2026, but. But I don't think that the should Israel exist or not should be contingent on who's leading them at the moment or not. I feel like we don't do that for any other country on the planet in any other circumstance where, oh, I don't like this government, we should scrap the whole place. You know what I mean?

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I mean it's sort of, it's interesting. It's kind of like this never ending question about whether Jews are like a race or a religion. And it's like it's kind of somewhere in between, like Zionism. To me it's not a political ideology like subscribing to the Democratic Party. But I also don't think that it is just the belief in a Jewish state like, or just the belief that a Jewish homeland should exist. I think there is a very clear political movement that is kind of built around that idea. I mean, I think that is the core fundamental idea. But I think the movement as a whole sort of moves in these generalities. Like, you know, I could say for instance that the Zionist movement has become much more religious over the last 20 or 30 years. I can't say the belief in a Jewish state existing has become much more religious over the last 20 or 30 years. There's a difference. I'm talking about like Zionism, the political movement, the political ideology. It is this sort of amorphous blob that exists the same way the Democratic Party exists or progressivism or something exists. So like, I agree with you that it's not quite that and it's not exclusively that. But I also don't think it is just as simple as the belief in a Jewish homeland. I think like that's a fundamental tenet of it, but it has all these qualities that we identify at the same time. And yeah, you're right that not having a very clear definition that's sort of like. And maybe leads to my conflating it sometimes. But I don't buy that it's a simple, just cut and dry the belief in a Jewish homeland. I think there is a really identifiable movement and characters in the movement and leaders of the movement. You know, I don't know, I'd be curious how you respond to that or think about that. I mean.

[Adam Grant]

I don't feel that way. When I see the far hard right, ultra religious, the Ben Veers and Smotrich's guys, I don't think of them as like, oh, those are the leaders of the Zionist movement. I think of those are hard right racists who want to take over all of the land and don't treat Palestinians as equal human beings. That to me is not Zionism. I don't know, I just, I've never thought about, I've never seen it framed that way. I've always seen them framed as just these are the hard right ultra religious dudes in the Israeli government. Not these are, this is the epitome of the Zionist movement.

[Isaac Saul]

I don't, I wouldn't classify Smotrich as, you know, a Zionist leader. I agree. I would like classify him as sort of a more extreme radical right wing politician who is like espousing a radical vision for the future of Zionism.

[Adam Grant]

Totally. And sorry, just to jump in like going back to the, you know, and something. I agree with you on your piece, you say, you know, at the very least it's impossible to refute that. Bibi, with the backing of the government is proposing an ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Like clearly that's that plan, that's what's on the table is getting everybody out of there. That's ethnic cleansing. But like, I don't think that the people A lot of the people, the Israeli people who are advocating for that are doing so in the name of, like, Jewish supremacy. I think it's in the name of I want these murderers to not live next to me anymore, and I want them out of here. Not. Yeah, not because I have some Zionist ideal to conquer these people. I don't think that's what it is at all.

[Isaac Saul]

And I guess to respond directly to that, I mean, I think one of the things that I. That I'm seeing from where I'm sitting about what I would call like, the Zionist movement or the political ideology is that the belief that these people all want to murder us and that we need to do something like this in the name of security, that that belief is informed by a lot of the sort of underlying principles or ideas in Zionism or that sort of circulate in Zionism in a way that I don't think is actually, like, correlates to reality. I mean, I think there's obviously a ton of extremism in Gaza and in the west bank and in southern Lebanon. But, like, I also think there's a lot of people. I mean, I've seen the videos of them in the streets protesting Hamas. A lot of people who understand a lot of Gazans. I think most Gazans have a better grasp of the threat Hamas poses to their safety than a lot of American leftists do who commentate on the conflict.

[Adam Grant]

So, Isaac, I don't think it's monolithic. Right. I think there are Israelis who see what you're talking about, and those are the ones who are the peaceniks and who want to be working together and have always been. And have always been a voice. And then there are the ones who are like, you know, I saw thousands of Palestinian civilians cross into Israel and murder my cousin and hold these Israelis hostage in their apartments. And I don't trust any of them. You know, it's. There's both kinds of people exist. And I think, you know, obviously sitting from the outside, it's very easy with our values to support and say, you know, we're in that peaceknit camp and as we should be, I think, as outsiders. But again, it's like, it's very hard for me to judge somebody who's experienced what they've experienced and go, you know, I have moral superiority. You guys are, you know, acting immorally right now when I have never felt what they have felt.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. I mean, and I guess. And maybe this is like, the rub, but I suppose one of my core views is that in understanding that belief that a lot of Israelis have about the threat that they face and the anger they face from past atrocities and stuff, it's just so obvious to me that the people of Gaza will have all those same feelings in the opposite direction based on all the actions that are happening now, which is like, I mean that's like.

[Adam Grant]

But here's the caveat. I mean the difference. And again, like, you're not wrong. I'm sure they feel those things too. I mean, especially post October 7th. Obviously, like that has changed the story. But I know for the Israelis, a lot of the story is look like you're talking Oslo Accords. We had an incredible deal on the table that would have made everybody happy on paper is perfect. And not only did Arafat tank it, he then launched the Intifad and started killing a bunch of innocent Israelis. Like that's how they dealt with the peace process. And then we unilaterally left Gaza and they responded by taking all their aid money and building tunnels and rockets and trying to kill us every day since. So there's a little bit of that fed up ness of like we have tried. I mean we've really put our backs into it. Meanwhile, the Palestinians have never really tried to have peace, have only ever said no, no, no, and have not invested really in a state at all. Continue to be completely reliant on foreign aid to survive because their leaders take all of it and leave the people in squalor. So again, you're not wrong. Obviously if I'm a person living in Gaza and my neighbor whole building just got blown up, I'm gonna feel a certain way about Israelis. I'm not gonna judge that person for how he feels. But I also, I understand how Israelis sort of feel or could feel. We've kind of exhausted our options here and I'm not sure what else there is left for us to try.

[Isaac Saul]

I think I, I think I generally agree with like the broad strokes of, you know, your brief like two sentence rehashing of the Oslo Accords and the Intifada. And I mean it's a hard story to summarize in 10 seconds, but I'm not, I'm not like, I don't have any major objections to that. I would complicate the story about leaving Gaza and Hamas's rise to power and what's kind of happened in the last 20 years that got us to this moment that where we're now, where Israel is about to go back and reoccupy the Strip all over again. And I would complicate it like this. I would say Hamas won an incredibly close election that involved their need to sort of suppress and violently repress some of the opposition and murder people. Hamas, yeah, and murder people. Violently repress being a euphemism for everything from people to just like beating opposition in the streets. Israel and Netanyahu in a lot of ways bet on Hamas. They prop them up as like a, a group that they thought maybe could be a long term peace partner. Or, you know, if you're incredibly cynical about Netanyahu, which in some I am, and other people are like, did that in order to ensure that the Palestinian people never had a leadership group that would be respected by the global community. And he wanted that outcome in order to undermine peace prospects long term. To get to this point and the narrative that I think Israel just kind of let them be and wanted them to figure out what they wanted to do and gave them a path towards some sort of sovereignty or freedom and that they chose to build tunnels and put all the money in the weapons and whatever. I mean, I think that is true of Hamas a bit as a leadership group. I think it's less true of the Gazan people. And I think the kind of narrative that Israel spent the last 20 years just like, here's your piece of land and do whatever you guys want with it. I would complicate that narrative a bit. I think the, I think the blockades, I think the restriction of movement, I think the restriction of trade, I think the tit for tat fights that have happened over those years where again, even before October 7th, many, many more Palestinians were killed than Israelis since they left Gaza, which is not like, it's not as simple as just numbers. But I think some sort of Palestinian attack happens and Israel responds disproportionately in a way that's supposed to be a deterrent and it never actually functions that way. And in the end, many more Palestinians are being killed. All these things to me, kind of complicate that story. And so again, now we're very much in the weeds on what Israel has done. But I guess I can't shake the feeling that the kind of, yeah, that thing that I identify as the Zionist political movement has informed a lot of those decisions over time.

[Adam Grant]

Foreign.

[Isaac Saul]

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[Howie Mandel]

Hi, it's Danny Pellegrino from Everything Iconic, and I couldn't help but wonder, when is the official and just like that podcast coming back? Well, it's back baby. And Just like that is back on Max. And so is the official podcast. Each week on and just like that, the writers room join writer, director and executive producer Michael Patrick King as he unpacks every episode after it airs on Max. Listen to. And just like that, the writers room on Max or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Adam Grant]

It sounds, it sounds to me like you equate Zionism with like Jewish supremacy over Palestinians. Would that be accurate to say that that's how you think of it?

[Isaac Saul]

I think that I don't really know. I don't really know. I don't really know how I answer that question right now. I think I'm feeling uncomfortable with the realization that it's hard to avoid a kind of implied Jewish supremacy when subscribing to like the baseline Zionist viewpoint. Like, for instance, if we want a Jewish homeland, which I want, what do we do about like the simple population question. Like if we are going to decide that Israel must be populated by more Jews than any other group, then there are these things that are downstream of that choice that we would never accept in any other liberal or democratic or free society about population controls and who can have babies and who can immigrate in and all these things. And yeah, that's a question that makes me really uncomfortable. And I'm not, I'm not in a spot where I'm going to just say that Zionism equals Jewish supremacy because like, the idea of Jewish supremacy is tied to so much anti Semitic bullshit about like, what we think about ourselves and you know, like what our goals are for global order and take over whatever. But like, there is something about the, there is something about the downstream cause of a full fledged, like, belief in the Zionist project that I think requires some sort of, I don't know, like, not Jewish priority, maybe not Jewish supremacy. But like. And that like, isn't like, how do we deal? How do you wrestle with that? I don't know. I don't know. How do you deal with that? That seems uncomfortable to me.

[Adam Grant]

So let me. The first thing that I think is important to understand or at least come to an agreement on is like, what is a Jewish right? And you said, is it a religion? Is it a race? To, to me it's. It is. I mean, the way that I understand Jews is it's all. I mean, Jews are a tribal social group, the, the, the likes of which don't really exist anymore. We're still kind of the only ones who are here from the ancient times where we shared a people, we shared a religion, we share oral tradition, we share a homeland, we share customs, we share all this stuff. And that's all part of what makes a Jew a Jew. And religion was never a separate piece from being a Jew until the Jews were emancipated in Europe in the 19th century. And some could finally, to their liking, assimilate and say, oh, I'm just, it's just the religious part, but I'm a, you know, I'm a Frenchman, but I, yes, I go to synagogue. Like, that didn't even exist until 150 years ago. There was no. You were a Jew. A Jew is a Jew, is a Jew. You're just that person that is, it is a personhood. So I think it's really important when we're talking about like Jewish homeland. It's not like, oh, if you believe in Rosh Hashanah, this place is for you. It's. No, it's. This is the homeland of this tribe. It's like, you know, be like giving the Navajo a country. I mean, it's. There it is a group of people who are bound Together, you know, my DNA says 100% Ashkenazi Jew. That's my DNA test. That's who I am, whether I believe a single thing about the religious piece or not. So I think that's really important that we're talking about a people. Then when you get to the question of should this people be able to maintain a majority, even if it's, you know, a. They need to put in machinations to do so. To me, from, you know, obviously it'd be hard for me to say I'm not biased because I'm Jewish, but I try to be objective about it. And I'm like, this is a people who have. And it's without exaggeration. Any time they've been a minority in any place on earth for thousands of years, they've been subjugated and persecuted and expelled and killed. Like literally all of them. Europe, North Africa, Asia, everywhere. So to me, I'm like, okay, let this little tiny group, like, be in charge of itself and be in a place where they can be the majority and they're not going to get killed and they can, you know, have sovereignty. And if, you know, if they have to do, you know, create an infrastructure to maintain that as long as it's not, you know, a violent infrastructure. But if it's that we have rules so that we can maintain and make sure that we're safe and not being overrun and becoming a minority again in another country where we're going to be subjugated, that kind of makes sense to me. You know, and there's just, there's so many other places on earth where everybody else gets to live and not have to experience this. It feels like we can offer this group this tiny little smaller than New Jersey sliver where they're from to live and not be persecuted.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, no, and I think that's, that's a great case for it. I mean, I, I identify with a lot of those feelings, candidly. I mean, I, I think the, the obvious nature of, like, what happens when the Jews are a minority in some place is, you know, you hear, as a reformed Jew, you hear those stories your, your whole life growing up, even when you're not in the kind of religious context of it all and the, the, the biblical context of it all. I guess I look around at other states that are defining themselves by their ethnicity. I mean, one of the common refrains is there's 20, whatever Muslim majority countries, the Jews are asking for one. And I mean those Muslim majority countries, the result of them making that decision has been the expulsion of people like Jews has been the. The. The result has been the subjugation of these other peoples. And so it's like that framework, to me, feels like, oh, like it could be a little icky, you know, and so I like your. Your point is really well taken. And I think that you articulated, like, a really strong case for. Makes me feel obviously, a little bit more motivated to defend the idea of, like, the Jewish state. But I don't think it makes me any less uncomfortable with the reality of what might happen once you commit to that path. And the harder question, even on the other side of it, is, like, okay, well, if a Jewish state is in a place where Jews have control of the government or are a majority of the people, then, like, what is it? You know, like, what are you defining? I agree that Jews are an ethnicity, for what it's worth. Like, that's how I would qualify it as an ethnicity. I mean, like, this sort of combination of people and religion and culture. And I also agree that they have ancestral connections to the homeland. So I'm like, inherently, there's a story there of, like, this indigenous people returning and reviving and, you know, doing it in a way that overcame so many obstacles. All that stuff.

[Adam Grant]

Great decolonization stories.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, this is like, one of the things that always fascinates me about the left is, like, that in so many other contexts, I feel like they could see that story if it was, like, an indigenous native tribe taking North Dakota back or something, they would love that. But in this context, they don't, which I find frustrating in some ways. So, yeah, I don't, like.

[Adam Grant]

I hear what you're saying, and obviously it's one of those, like, kick the can down the road kind of things. Right. It's like, at this point, Israel is generally, up until this war, let's say it's like, it's generally been making it work. I mean, it is the only place in the region with sort of full religious freedom, with 2 million Arab Muslim citizens who have full Israeli citizenship. There's Druze, there's Christians. I mean, they're doing. For a place that's trying to maintain a Jewish majority. They're certainly the most open and tolerant and welcoming of any state in that region. So that's part of what's frustrating to me. It's like we keep trying to drill down on them while sort of everybody around them gets a little bit of a free pass for being the opposite, where it's, you know, completely homogenous all throughout that region. And I don't, you know, I don't have the answers. I don't know if it's like a percentage thing that they have to figure out. I have no idea. And you're right that there comes a point where it's kind of hard to like assume it's not gonna get messy at some point somewhere, but it feels like a. Something worth continuing to happen and like dealing with it when it comes, as opposed to saying, well, some day might come where this might cause an issue. So I question this entire enterprise.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I mean, I think like that, you know, more, more than questioning the idea of this homeland that exists for these people that we can define. My piece sought to sort of question the ramifications of a belief in that homeland in 2025 and the degree to sort of defend it or advance the Jewish supremacy or whatever you want to call it. I'm doing air quotes around Jewish supremacy for people just listening, like the cause to advance that by any means. Almost.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

So this is, to me.

[Adam Grant]

I'm sorry to interrupt you. That's the phrase that. Well, I'll get into a lot of conversations about, because to me, the concept of Zionism does not include that by any means necessary. Part like that is an addendum by a certain type of person who perhaps one can ascribe Zionism to. But like, that is not a baked in feature. Zionism does. The definition of Zionism is not Jewish homeland by any means necessary. That is not part of it and never has been. So I think it's important to again, sort of separate that out. That just because there may be some people who are sort of running in that direction does not mean the idea of it or the movement as a whole is built around that.

[Isaac Saul]

I guess the. I mean, this sort of goes back to where we started the conversation where it's like, Zionism achieved its goal of creating this homeland. So when I say by any means necessary, I mean, I'm not saying that that's necessarily the view of every Zionist or the thing that's core to the Zionist ideology, but like, there are not many places further to go than the place that we're at in terms of what will Israel or Zionists do in order to defend Israel as the homeland, as the state in their mind. Because, I mean, we are proposing. The Israeli government is proposing an ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Strip right now. So, like, I guess it's just. It certainly feels that way. Like, I don't know that, you know, you could compel Netanyahu or even Smotrich or whatever to just like nuke Gaza. So maybe there's some like, next level of thing that they could do that's horrific and whatever and would get the majority of the country to support it and Zionists around the world would defend it. I don't know. But it feels like we are at such an extreme point and even if part of the extremist point where we're at is a product of the actions of Hamas and Iran and Hezbollah, it's like the ideology is still interacting with those things in a way that's producing this result that I hate so much. And so that's the thing that makes me question where it is and where the movement is. And you know, I. It's like it again, I know that you don't agree with this framework or this definition or that, that it is. That there is this sort of, like, political ideology attached to it. I, again, I think that we can identify characteristics of Zionism, which is proof of my point. But like, if the Democratic Party is just, you know, 80% of the party or 90% of the party is pro choice and I'm a pro life Democrat, like, there might come a point where I just say, like, oh, this party isn't representative of my views anymore. This ideology isn't representative of my views anymore. Like, I need to go somewhere else to find that, or I need to, like, leave it to find that.

[Adam Grant]

Right. So I, that's, you know, that's. I mentioned when I was reading especially, like the last line of your piece, it made me think of sort of myself with the Democratic Party. And that's something I'm grappling with. But what I sort of try to tell myself is what I've heard moderate Democratic politicians say to me, folks like Alma Hernandez of Arizona and Richie Torres, the congressman from New York, who have said, like, don't abandon ship. Like, if you leave the party, you're handing it over to the elements that you don't like and don't want to see it become. You've got to stay and keep your seat at the table and try to make it the version of it that you want to see. And so I feel like that would also apply to you in this case, where I would hope instead of sort of saying I'm out, you would say I'm in, but I don't like what I'm seeing and we need to steer this shit back in the right direction.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I mean, I will say I've gotten one of the pieces of feedback or the recurring themes of feedback that I've gotten that surprised me and that I thought was gracious and kind is a lot of people writing in saying, like, I'm a Zionist, I share your views on all this stuff. Please don't abandon the movement or don't say that you're leaving Zion. Like, what we need is people like you sort of shaping the ideology and pulling us back towards the center.

[Adam Grant]

Right?

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. There's some guy, Adam Sherman, who has a substack with some kind of following, wrote about it and a few people sent it to me and it was like he was like hat in hand, making a plea, like, I share your views on all these things, yet I'm still a staunch Zionist and I want you to stay here with us to help us sort of recapture. And again, that's appealing. I find that an appealing. I mean, in part because it's sort of. It's appealing to my ego and better nature and like, oh, we need you, we value you, whatever. But also just because it's a reminder that there's maybe more diversity of thought amongst this political movement I'm identifying than maybe I gave credit for in my piece. And we just don't hear from those people enough or a lot.

[Adam Grant]

I'm sure you've seen the polling in terms of the favorability of Netanyahu's government. I mean, he is overwhelmingly unpopular. If there was an election today, he'd be gone. I mean, 70% of the country wants the war to end. They want a ceasefire and hostages home and war over. So I think a lot of the population, it's like anywhere else. Right. It's a democracy. Of course, there's diversity of thought. And I think to sort of put the entire thing under the prism of that one poll about the. They don't want, you know, they'd be okay with the Gazans being relocated, I think is missing a lot of these people in the way they're feeling about the situation.

[Isaac Saul]

To be fair, I did also cite a poll that was about how, you know, 70% of Israelis doubted the reasoning Netanyahu put forward for the war. They viewed it as political, not like the security. You know, a lot of Israelis understand that he is trying to keep his right wing coalition together so he can maintain power. He's not necessarily taking all of his actions in the best interest of the Israeli people.

[Adam Grant]

The guy's been protested every day for years.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. Even before the war. Yes. I have a question for you. I guess I'm curious, accepting the premise that so much needs to change in Gaza and the way that we have to change the leadership, Hamas, obviously, is not a legitimate partner to have in terms of peace. And also there's a lot of, like, hatred towards Israel and Jews amongst the Gazan population. And I think, like, as we're sort of fleshing out here, it's. You can relate to some of that the same way you could relate to Jews who have these impassioned feelings because of living through the Intifada or whatever else. But just putting that aside for a moment, accepting all that. Yeah. I'm curious, like, from your view, do you think that there are ways in which the psyche of your average Zionist could or should change in the current dynamic in a way that would be more productive toward finding a solution for peace? I mean, I think maybe that's something that I'm sort of like a thesis I'm putting forward a little bit in my piece is just like, if I pluck a random Zionist off the street, there's really good odds that the two of us see the framework and the world really differently. And that's what makes me feel so separate and different. And I guess I'm just curious, like, how you view that question. I know it's a little bit squishy, but, like, it seems. Yeah, I don't know. I'll leave it at that.

[Adam Grant]

Huh. You know what I come back to a lot in my head is this. If you were able to snap your fingers and say, there's gonna be an Israel, there's gonna be a Palestine with a peaceful, moderate government that's gonna wanna live side by side with Israel, and I could snap my fingers and that would be true. I think the majority of Israel would go, okay, that's great, let's do that. And I just don't. The problem is, I don't know if I can say the same for Palestinians. Not because I'm racist against them, but because that's been their position all this time, is. No, no, no. I mean, literally, they have the three nos of, we will not negotiate, there will be no Jewish state. We will never recognize these people. And so I think at the end of the day, under a different circumstance, that. What I mean to say is the Israeli mindset, the Zionist mindset, I think, is very open to a change in situation. It's just the hand that they've been dealt at the moment is so scary and violent and seems so hopeless to so many of them that, you know, it's a bad spot to be in. But God willing, if not sooner, you know, the Netanyahu Government, it might collapse now because the Haradium are threatening to pull out because, you know, they're drafting more ultra orthodox into the army. And if they don't get that exemption, some of these guys are saying they're going to collapse the government. So maybe it'll collapse, but if it doesn't, there's gonna be elections in 2026 and somebody different's gonna come to power. I just can't see a scenario where it's Netanyahu. And I have to imagine, no matter who it is, there's gonna be a shift somewhere, something different's going to happen. Nope, there's nobody except for the hard, hard right extremists in the government who like 100% of the path that Israel is on right now. So something is going to be different. So it's a little bit for me, less about, like, I need to change the Zionist mind right now and more about, like, things I have no control over, which is the Netanyahu government and how this war is going to resolve itself. And once he's gone, who's going to actually, you know, be a big boy and make a plan and pick up the pieces and put together a livable future for all the people in this region, because it's obviously there to be had. There are regional partners kind of ready to go and help make this thing happen that, you know, you outlined in your piece. Israel could have done this, this, this and this and a lot of that. I think many of them I thought were kind of unreasonable. And you said yourself there's varying degrees of reasonableness in these things that I put out. But one thing that certainly is true is, like, there are partners who, you know, we know that October 7th happened when it did because they wanted to sabotage Saudi Israel normalization. So, I mean, there are powerful, moderate partners ready to help in a certain way, but they have to, unfortunately, like, they have their own politics and people that they have to cater to and move carefully around. And Israel hasn't. Their government has not made the choices that make it easy for the Saudis and Emirates or whoever to be able to jump in and do the things they kind of wish they could be doing. So I guess, again, it's all to say that with different leadership, I think this would look very different. And that's, again, sort of why I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I want to throw the BB out with the bathwater, but not the whole thing.

[Isaac Saul]

Thanks, I guess. Okay. This is, I mean, going back to the beginning a Little bit the beginning of Israel, a little bit. Hearing you talk about that or hearing you frame that, it occurs to me that we're sort of living through this moment, a kind of an ends justify the means moment in a lot of ways from I think the Zionist Israeli perspective, which is just like we're preserving our future and this nation's future. And we have people on the other side of this barrier, this wall, that want to kill us. And this is what we need to do. I'm wondering, like, when you think about the history of Israel, the formation of Israel, how you grapple with or think about what your framework is for the pain, the loss, the suffering of the Palestinian people in the creation of Israel. I mean, this is something I've been thinking about a lot as I wrote this piece. And I didn't touch a ton on the history because as relevant as it is, I wanted to focus a lot on the present day issues. But, you know, there's a. We tell ourselves a story as Jews about the success of Zionism and what happened and the post Holocaust world and realizing that we couldn't exist in Eastern Europe and the global community realizing that everywhere we went we had basically, as you said, become a minority and been subjugated. And it built this sort of support and empathy for the plight of the Jews that I think helped accelerate the success of Zionism, which is like this really horrible thing. Like we had to go through this horrible thing in order to get what we wanted or for the vision to be achieved. But there's a story that the Palestinians tell themselves about the Nakba and the displacement and the sort of the global community turning against them and not caring about what it meant to introduce these people into their homelands or reintroduce these people into their homelands. And it was always kind of like from this perspective I grew up on, just like the end sort of justified the means, you know, And I guess I'm just interested, like, what your framework or context is for that. Because though it now feels like ancient history in a lot of ways, I think the Palestinian people are telling themselves a really similar story right now and the Zionists are telling themselves a really similar story right now. And it feels relevant to me, I guess.

[Adam Grant]

Sure. I'm glad you mentioned the Nakba because that was something that I noticed in your piece that I wanted to talk about. The first time that word Nakba is used was by, I believe it was a Syrian writer. And the reference of Nakba, the catastrophe was not, oh, this catastrophe befell us at the Hand of the Jews. The way it was used was our handling of this situation was a disaster because we thought we could leave, these guys would all get killed, we would destroy them all, and then we'd just come back once the war was over and take our houses back. And it didn't work out that way and we kind of blew it. That is what nakba means by the person who introduced that term. And it's only in more recent years that it's sort of been taken up and dare I say, distorted to be like, oh, the Jews massacred us all. That's not what it was. And it's also not what happened. They first of all, if we step back even further again, it's Jews repeatedly saying, we'll take anything. We don't care who we have to live next to. We've been here, we've had a continuous presence in this land. It's not like we just showed up here out of the blue. We've been here for thousands of years. It's our indigenous homeland. We'll take a sliver. I mean, I think it's called the Peel Commission from like the. Even before the partition plan in the 30s. It was like Jews basically got like, Tel Aviv and the Arabs get everything else. And the Arabs said, no, we're not doing anything that allows Jews any kind of sovereignty anywhere. Israel declares independence. And in their declaration of independence, they don't even have a constitution, they just have this declaration. It says, we want to be friends with our Arab neighbors and we welcome peace. It says we want to have freedom of religion. It says all that stuff. And the day that they declare their independence, they're attacked by every single Arab country that surrounds them all at once, who want to literally genocide them and kill them all and take over the land entirely. So, of course, you know, if you're a regular run of the mill Palestinian who. And your story of that is, I got kicked out of my house. Like a couple hundred thousand of them did. A lots of them left of their own free will because they were told to by the leadership. Leave, we'll kill them, then you can come back. A lot of them stayed and them and their, you know, offspring are now Israeli citizens. Those are the Israeli Arabs. Some of them left because there was a war and it was scary and they just wanted to get out of this scary war zone. And then some were kicked out forcibly by Jews by the Israeli defense or the Israeli forces. But to sort of. So again, to come back to what I was just saying, yes, if a run of the mill person. And you are moved by the Israeli military out of your place. Like, I get being pissed off and thinking that sucks. But I don't know. This was a time when there were nationalist movements all over the world, all over countries are being partitioned. This sort of thing happened throughout history and especially in that time, all over the place. And there's no other place that has spent every day since just trying to, you know, be angry about it, not build anything new and just try to sort of go back in time and kill everybody next door. At a certain point, you have to say, okay, this is what happened. It is what it is. And, you know, we've been offered so many other opportunities to have a state, if that's what we say we want on the land, that we say that we kind of want to have it. And we keep saying no because we're holding out hope that the world's going to support us in wiping these people out entirely and turning back the clock. And so that's a tough one for me. It's hard for me to empathize with that point of view. Like when you have the kind of peace offering that was on the table for the partition, original partition agreement, you said no. And the one that was on the table, you know, Camp David Accords, where they got basically everything that they wanted, including, you know, splitting Jerusalem and all this stuff, and they said no to that. They literally don't want to play ball. And so it's really, that's really tough, even if, and on the human level, obviously, for the people who are not the politicians and not the leadership that I can empathize with. And there's a cost to that and there's a story there and there's a pain there and that I totally get. But, you know, it's the leadership, unfortunately, who's been making all the calls for these people for the last however many decades and they've been leading them into ruin. Foreign.

[Isaac Saul]

We'Ll be right back after this quick break.

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[Isaac Saul]

All right, before we get out of here, the last thing I've been saving for last, I just wanted to ask you and I guess give you space. I mean I wrote a 6,000 word piece that I shoved down my readers throats about Zionism and my views on it in the current state of it. And I promised people I would invite some dissenting views and the criticism and the feedback. And so I think I'll close by asking how you define Zionism. I mean, I answered the question and maybe you can make your case about why you feel like it's still a valuable project to pursue. I mean, I think you've been doing a little bit of that throughout this conversation, but I wanted to put it to you directly just to ensure that that opinion was aired here.

[Adam Grant]

Sure. To me, the way that I have learned to define Zionism, I didn't make this up, but this is how I've learned to define it is the belief that the Jewish people who are a people or a nation deserve the right to sovereignty, self determination in some part of the homeland to which they are indigenous. That to me is Zionism. That's the whole thing. It's that Jews deserve their own state somewhere on the ancestral indigenous land. And to me a, like I said, like, you know, mission accomplished. We have that. Which is sort of why I don't like to, you know, I think, I don't honestly think this will ever happen, but I wish we would stop using the term because I don't think it's necessary anymore. I wish we called them either if we're talking about the politicians, let's call them whatever their political, let's call it Likud or if we're talking about you know, supporters of Israel, let's call them Israeli patriots or supporters of Israel and not people who believe Israel should exist or people who believe there should be a Jewish homeland because Israel does exist and there is a Jewish homeland. So that's sort of where I land on the Zionist of it all. And then, you know, that's why to me, you know, you said in your piece, anti Zionism is not anti Semitism. To me, I think it automatically is. Because if you're saying if the definition of Zionism is Jewish sovereignty and safety in their own homeland and you're anti that idea, even if you have no malice and it's just intellectual, that's an anti Jewish idea. That Jews of all the peoples on earth should not have sovereignty, should not be able to rule themselves, should not be able to live in their own indigenous homeland. That's, I mean, that's very. I don't know how else you would categorize that other than an anti Jewish idea. It's certainly not a pro Jewish idea.

[Isaac Saul]

I can't believe you're opening this can of worms. At the end of the show you're gonna do this to me. Yeah, I totally disagree. And it's worth sparing a few minutes, I think. I mean, look, first of all, I don't think it's true. I mean, there's indigenous groups in America right now who, we don't grant a right to live on their indigenous homeland. So, like, if that were true of the Jews, they wouldn't be the only peoples who were being rejected the right to return or just, you know, I.

[Adam Grant]

Think that we don't think that's a good thing. It's not good that the native tribes are like pushed onto random reservations. Right?

[Isaac Saul]

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but I don't think any. I think plenty of Americans who believe that we shouldn't return South Dakota to some Native American tribe, they're not anti Native American. That doesn't make them hateful towards Native Americans. The same way not believing that Jews can return to Israel doesn't make them hateful.

[Adam Grant]

Well, if you were anti Indian reservations right now, I think that would make you anti Indian. You said they shouldn't have reservations, they should just have to. We should be able to take that land that should be part of America normal and anyone should be able to live there.

[Isaac Saul]

I mean, what if your view is that not that the reservations were a deleterious, you know, having a deleterious impact on the Native American people and that it seemed to you like you know, they're not integrating with American society and their economic prospects aren't great. And these reservations are, I mean that's a real view. These reservations are, you know, rife with corruption and addiction and all these things, the poverty and that it'd be better if like they were just Americans. I mean that's a, I think that's a reasonable viewpoint to have. That's not, there's no malice there. It's not, it's not an anti native viewpoint. I mean I actually think that, I think the conflation between anti Semitism and anti Zionism is a little bit dangerous. And one of the reasons why is because the people who are most anti Semitic often want to conflate all Jews with all Zionists. That's just a reality that they want to hold Jews responsible for the actions of any Zionist anywhere, any Jew anywhere. And then the other part of it is just like there are a lot of Jews who understand this situation, you know, in similar terms that you and I do or they know the similar history that you and I do and they come out on the other end where they, I mean I, I wouldn't call myself anti Zionist. A lot of people accuse me of doing that in the piece which I explicitly never did and definitely never did. Yeah, but like there are anti Zionist Jews. I don't think they're like self hating anti Semitic Jews. I think they, you know, they view the project of a Jewish homeland as being dangerous or negative for some reason. There are anti Zionist that like insane. I mean I don't want to whatever disparage them but that very intense small group of ultra Orthodox Jews whose name.

[Adam Grant]

Is Neutrino Carta or something like that.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, the Neutrino Carta who are like, you know, on religious tenets they believe that like taking the land of Israel back forcefully is explicitly prohibited and they're anti Zionist. So I don't know, I don't buy that they're the same or that you can put them in the same bucket.

[Adam Grant]

Can you. So how would you respond to like the argument that if you are against Jews having sovereignty, that is somehow not an anti Jewish position because Jews can.

[Isaac Saul]

Have sovereignty without the existence of Israel. If Israel didn't exist, I'd be living a perfectly sovereign life here. There are countries that allow Jews to exist and proliferate and participate in.

[Adam Grant]

So maybe the word self determination instead of sovereignty.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I mean if you're, I mean that's an interesting question. Are you certain that if you took the entire global Jewry and really all gave them a voice in their own self determination that like knowing everything we know now in this present world, they would still choose Israel. I'm not 100% sure, I think probably, but I think there's a, there's a strong current and a definitely a rising tide of Jews globally who are like, this is a failing project. I mean, they're. Again, it's not the thing that I subscribe to. I have not gone that far in my, like, evolution of questioning the efficacy of this. But yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I guess self determination makes it a little bit more. A little bit stickier. Yeah, it's still hard for me because it's like the. I don't know that self determination necessitates a Jewish state. You know, like, I think this, the thing that matters is that you believe that Jews should be able to live freely and without violence and without oppression. Like, that's the. Like, if you don't believe in those things. I think that's anti Semitic, but I think it's possible to want Jews to live freely, to want individual Jews to have their own self determination and to have liberty and sovereignty and whatever else. But to think that like, the project of Israel is something that has morphed into a separate issue that you can oppose. I mean, I do think that that's possible.

[Adam Grant]

Doesn't it sound a little Pollyannaish to believe that, you know, this is gonna be the one time in the last thousands and thousands of years where if we leave Jews as minorities in other countries without Israel, they're gonna be totally fine.

[Isaac Saul]

Pollyannish. I don't know, like, maybe optimistic maybe.

[Adam Grant]

Cause it's never happened, right? I mean, it's never. America is sort of the, you know, the closest and best example. But we were discriminated against here for a long time and now Jews are getting, you know, firebombed on the street.

[Isaac Saul]

It's never happened. But it's also never happened that we've lived through a period of history for 200 years where like the vast majority of the global population has, you know, rights, freedom of speech there. We know we don't live in an era of segregation, we don't live in an era of monarchies. I mean, this is a fundamentally different time in world history than the thousands of years that preceded it. In a way where like, there's some reliance on the goodness of humans. Like, I don't, I don't. And just the advancement of society as a whole. Like, I don't think Jews would be any Better off in some of the, the places that exist in the world today. Like, there are European countries still rife with antisemitism. There are Arab states still rife with antisemitism. There's some scary shit happening here in America, I'm not gonna lie.

[Adam Grant]

But like, it's Israel that keeps those Jews safe. If they have to leave those places.

[Isaac Saul]

It's to some degree. I mean, like, do you, do you really feel that? Like, that your backstop if, if things go haywire is going to Israel? Is that how you view it?

[Adam Grant]

I do view it. I mean, I don't think we're there and I don't think we're gonna be there. I don't think America is suddenly gonna become 1939 Germany and I'm gonna have to flee to Israel for my life. But other people have had to do that all over the place from a lot of countries, from Russia, from North Africa, from the Middle East. They very literally have had to flee for their lives and would be dead if they weren't able to go to Israel and be welcomed as part of that safe majority. And so I don't take that for granted. Just because that's not been my or my family's experience.

[Isaac Saul]

I think it's smart not to take that for granted. I 100% concede that. I can't remember if I wrote this in my piece. I think I did, or maybe it was in a follow up. But I don't think you would mind me saying this. Haviv Redigur, who I respect a lot, who I have a super smart guy. Super smart guy. Yeah, really smart guy. He wrote me something about the piece and just to share a tiny bit of what he said was like that I think I did. I included it towards the end of the piece, but I didn't name him. But again, I don't think he would mind. But he just said, like, anti Zionism. The existence of anti Zionism is a very strong signal of a healthy, good, safe period of time in history for Jews, basically, which I thought was really interesting. I mean, he was basically just saying, like, it is a privilege to be able to hold in a space where you are anti Zionist, because that's just a sign that there's enough security for the Jewish people that like, the moral collapse has not happened. But, like, when it does, because it always does, and it will, then Zionism is the thing that will protect us and defend us. So like, he was like, I wish much anti Zionism, because that is just to me a signal that we're living in an era of really good times for Jews. If people feel comfortable enough to believe in that, or if Jews feel comfortable enough to believe in that, it means that it's not so obvious to them that we are in this dangerous period of time. And I thought that was kind of an interesting. Again, I didn't love the I wasn't characterizing myself as being anti Zionist, so I didn't really love that characterization. But it struck me that there was some wisdom there. And I think that kind of dovetails nicely into what you're saying where it's like, I don't feel like I need this thing right now or I'm going to need this thing in my lifetime to flee to Israel. But that doesn't mean that that isn't going to happen at some point in the future or that it definitely won't happen, or that it isn't a solution that's viable for other people living in different circumstances. So, yeah, despite all that, I still believe. I still, like, I very much struggle to make it synonymous with anti Semitism.

[Adam Grant]

I also let me. I know we need to get close to the end here, but just one of the biggest issues about it, Isaac, is that the majority of people who speak on this are not doing so the way that you are. So I can see that there are certain people and discussions and situations who are able to talk about anti Zionism, perhaps in a way that is not anti Semitic, but that is, at least in my experience, by far the minority. And the majority of people who attempt to do this are far ill equipped to do so. And instantly, sort of the two things are synonymous.

[Isaac Saul]

Well, I think it's a good place to just say cheers to trying to elevate the dialogue and the discourse a little bit. I very much appreciate you coming on the show today and sitting down with me. I think you've given me more to chew on. And there's a weird thing that happens when you're in a position like I think people like you and I are in. I won't speak for you. When you're in a position like I'm in. I think I am publicly and out loud, you know, evolving and changing and having my thoughts sort of dissected and learning as I go and kind of building the plane of my own ideology as I fly it. And it's scary and hard and fun and exhilarating and fascinating. I think, like, you've given me some more stuff today to kind of think on and chew on and incorporate and stress test in some of my views in a way that I find really helpful. So I appreciate you coming on.

[Adam Grant]

I appreciate you having me and having these. Thank you for having these kinds of conversations. You know, I got two messages or three messages from followers of mine who had been reading Tangle since you were on my show, and they sent me your article, and they're like, I can't believe this guy. I can't believe I'm paying for this. And I'm like. I'm like, what are you guys doing here if you're not trying to have conversations like this and you're not willing to listen to thoughtful people like Isaac think through stuff? Like, to me, I'm not threatened by that at all. And it bothers me when people are. And I don't see how. First of all, I don't see how there's anything wrong with thinking things through and thinking out loud. And if anything, I find it so positive and such a productive way to approach things. And so I just. I appreciate you continuing to do what you do, and I could care less if we disagree or not. I just appreciate you being thoughtful and that we're having these kinds of conversations.

[Isaac Saul]

Thanks, Jonah. Jonah Platt, he's the host of the Being Jewish podcast. I highly recommend it. You can also follow him on Instagram, where that's one of the places I keep up with a lot of his work. Any other things you're working on or promoting right now that you want to shout out before we let you go?

[Adam Grant]

We're going to be starting another edition of the podcast this summer called 30 Minute Mensches. That's gonna be just more. Yeah, it's kind of more of the same, but a little more streamlined. Sort of different kinds of guests, a little bit to try some new things out, but otherwise it's the same old, same old on YouTube, on audio platforms, and on Jewish Broadcasting Service on TV.

[Isaac Saul]

Awesome. Jonah, thanks so much for being here, man. I appreciate it.

[Adam Grant]

Thanks, Isaac.

[Isaac Saul]

Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by managing editor Ari Weitzman, with Senior editor Will Kbach and associate editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Saul, Lindsey Knuth, and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our [e-mail].

[Jonah Platt]

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