Podcast Summary: Tangle – Isaac Saul Interviews Jonah Platt on Zionism

Episode Title: FULL EPISODE - Isaac interviews Jonah Platt about Zionism
Release Date: June 6, 2025
Host: Isaac Saul
Guest: Jonah Platt, Host of the Being Jewish Podcast

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Tangle, host Isaac Saul engages in a deep and nuanced conversation with Jonah Platt, the host of the Being Jewish podcast. The discussion centers around Zionism—a topic that intertwines personal beliefs, political ideologies, and historical contexts. Both Isaac and Jonah delve into the complexities of Zionism, its current state, and its implications for both Jews and Palestinians.

Defining Zionism

Isaac Saul initiates the conversation by grappling with his personal relationship with Zionism, questioning whether it remains a movement or has transformed into a political ideology he wishes to associate with:

“I published this piece almost a week ago today about grappling with my Zionism and questioning whether it was a movement or a political ideology I wanted to be a part of anymore...” ([03:15])

Jonah Platt seeks clarity on Zionism's definition to ensure a grounded discussion:

“How you define Zionism, because that's I think that's super important and informs a lot of what you're talking about...” ([04:59])

Isaac Saul defines Zionism as:

“Zionism is a political ideology or political movement for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, a Jewish state.” ([05:21])

Personal Journey with Zionism

Isaac shares his introspective journey, highlighting his support for a Jewish homeland while wrestling with the current political climate in Israel:

“I'm struggling with the reality of are the things that we're seeing now in the present day a product of the pursuit of that goal?” ([06:08])

Jonah echoes similar sentiments, emphasizing the importance of distinguishing between Zionism as a historical movement and the current government's policies:

“I don't actually think that even talking about Zionism in the context that you are is useful because Zionism is, you know, it achieved its goal.” ([06:08])

Current State of Zionism and Israeli Policies

The conversation delves into the present-day policies of Israel and their alignment with Zionist principles. Isaac expresses discomfort with recent Israeli government actions, particularly a poll indicating that a significant majority of Zionist Jews support the clearance of Gaza:

“Something like north of 80% of them responded in this poll that they believed that Israel should clear out the population of Gaza and reoccupy it just...” ([12:32])

Jonah challenges the conflation of Zionism with extremist policies, arguing that not all Zionists advocate for such measures:

“It's not Zionism. I don't know, I just, I've never thought about, I've never seen it framed that way.” ([23:15])

Polls and Public Opinion

Isaac references polling data to underscore his concerns about the direction of Zionism within Israel:

“8 in 10 Zionist Jews in Israel believe in what I think is definitionally an ethnic cleansing of Gaza.” ([12:32])

Jonah responds by questioning the definition of Zionism, suggesting that associating it with extremist policies is a misrepresentation:

“The definition of Zionism is not Jewish homeland by any means necessary. That is not part of it and never has been.” ([44:23])

Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism Clarifications

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the delicate balance between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Jonah firmly distinguishes between legitimate criticism of Zionist policies and anti-Semitic sentiments:

“There are anti-Zionist Jews. I don't think they're like self-hating anti Semitic Jews.” ([68:44])

Isaac counters by arguing that opposing Jewish sovereignty inherently targets Jewish self-determination:

“If you're saying that Jews of all the peoples on earth should not have sovereignty, should not be able to rule themselves... that's very... that's very anti Jewish.” ([74:09])

Jonah refutes this by emphasizing the complexity of the issue and the presence of diverse Jewish voices:

“There are anti Zionist Jews... they view the project of a Jewish homeland as being dangerous or negative for some reason.” ([71:45])

Historical Context: The Nakba and Israel's Formation

Isaac brings historical perspectives into the conversation, discussing the Nakba—the displacement of Palestinians during Israel's establishment:

“There's a story that the Palestinians tell themselves about the Nakba and the displacement...” ([59:25])

Jonah provides clarity on the origin and original intent behind the term Nakba, differentiating it from its contemporary usage:

“The first time that word Nakba is used was by, I believe it was a Syrian writer...” ([59:25])

He argues that the term was initially meant to describe strategic failures rather than portraying it as a vindictive act:

“It was our handling of this situation was a disaster because we thought we could leave, these guys would all get killed...” ([59:25])

Paths to Peace and Future Outlook

The discussion shifts towards potential pathways to peace, with both hosts acknowledging the profound challenges and entrenched sentiments on both sides.

Isaac questions the feasibility of peace amidst prevailing distrust and violence:

“The path toward peace that Israel is taking or the path toward deterrence that Israel is taking is so fundamentally broken...” ([19:22])

Jonah remains cautiously optimistic, suggesting that leadership changes could pave the way for new approaches:

“If there was an election today, he'd be gone... something is going to be different.” ([50:04])

Conclusion

In the concluding segments, Isaac and Jonah reflect on the importance of nuanced dialogue and the ongoing evolution of their own perspectives. Isaac acknowledges the value of dissenting voices within the Zionist movement and the necessity of internal reform:

“It's a privilege to be able to hold in a space where you are anti Zionist, because that's just a sign that there's enough security for the Jewish people...” ([69:10])

Jonah encourages elevating the discourse around Zionism, emphasizing thoughtful and constructive conversations over blanket condemnations:

“I'm glad you are doing what you do, and I could care less if we disagree or not. I just appreciate you being thoughtful and that we're having these kinds of conversations.” ([81:23])

Both hosts express a commitment to continued dialogue, recognizing the complexity of Zionism and its impact on contemporary geopolitics.

Notable Quotes:

• “I think Zionism is a political ideology that is producing a bad outcome...” — Isaac Saul ([06:08])
• “Anti Zionism, I think it's automatically anti-Semitism...” — Adam Grant ([44:23])
• “The existence of anti Zionism is a very strong signal of a healthy, good, safe period of time for Jews...” — Isaac Saul ([68:43])
• “We have rules so that we can maintain and make sure that we're safe and not being overrun...” — Isaac Saul ([19:22])

This episode of Tangle offers a thought-provoking exploration of Zionism, balancing personal reflections with broader political analyses. Through respectful discourse, Isaac Saul and Jonah Platt navigate the intricate landscape of Zionism, its historical roots, and its current manifestations, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of one of today's most contentious political ideologies.