FULL EPISODE - The Friday Edition: Yes, I’d like to briefly defend Gavin Newsom.

Summary

Tangle Podcast Episode Summary: "FULL EPISODE - The Friday Edition: Yes, I’d like to briefly defend Gavin Newsom"

Release Date: March 21, 2025
Host: Isaac Saul
Podcast Title: Tangle
Description: Independent, non-partisan politics news featuring diverse perspectives from across the political spectrum, alongside insightful interviews with political figures.

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Tangle, host Isaac Saul undertakes a comprehensive defense of California Governor Gavin Newsom amidst widespread criticism over Newsom’s latest political maneuver—the launch of his podcast, This Is Gavin Newsom. Saul aims to dissect the controversies surrounding the governor’s initiative to engage with right-wing personalities, providing a balanced analysis that challenges prevailing negative narratives.

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2. Gavin Newsom’s New Podcast: Bridging Political Divides

Gavin Newsom has initiated a podcast titled This Is Gavin Newsom, which serves as a platform for dialogues between him and a spectrum of political thinkers, notably those aligned with the MAGA movement. The podcast features high-profile conservative figures such as:

• Charlie Kirk (Moderator, [01:45])
• Michael Savage (Conservative Commentator, [02:10])
• Steve Bannon (MAGA Strategist, [02:35])

This bold move has sparked speculation about Newsom’s potential aspirations for the 2028 presidential race, with Saul noting, “Newsom's podcast was basically his campaign announcement.”

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3. Media and Public Criticism

Newsom's podcast has not been received favorably across the political landscape. Prominent criticisms include:

• Michelle Goldberg (The New York Times): Questioned Newsom's strategy of leveraging right-wing influencers to rehabilitate his image, stating, “Newsom tries to use right-wing influencers to fix his image” ([03:15]).

• Des Potash (USA Today): Criticized Newsom for not stepping up as a leader, asserting, “Governor Gavin Newsom could step up to be a better leader that California needs” ([03:45]).

• Margaret Sullivan (The Guardian): Highlighted the irony of Newsom providing Steve Bannon with a platform, remarking, “Why is Gavin Newsom handing Steve Bannon a megaphone?” ([03:50]).

Additionally, Newsom faced backlash from political figures like Adam Kinzinger, who labeled Newsom’s actions as “unforgivable and insane” ([04:05]).

Public opinion reflected this sentiment, with Newsom's favorability among liberals dropping from 46% to 30%, and Republicans viewing him as “insincere, fake, and pandering” ([04:10]). The podcast's reception was further evidenced by its low rating of 2.8 out of 5 stars on Apple Podcasts ([04:15]).

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4. Isaac Saul’s Defense of Gavin Newsom

Contrary to the prevailing criticism, Isaac Saul offers a nuanced defense of Newsom’s podcast strategy, emphasizing several key aspects:

a. Inclusivity of Conversations

Saul underscores the rarity and importance of Newsom engaging directly with prominent right-wing figures, stating, “It's incredible that these conversations are happening at all” ([05:00]). He highlights that unlike many liberals who limit their engagement to like-minded individuals, Newsom is fostering genuine dialogue across ideological divides.

b. Cordial Discussions Without Hostility

A standout feature of Newsom's interviews is the respectful and cordial nature of the discussions. Saul notes, “Despite the radical differences in worldview between host and guest, neither devolved into shouting matches or ad hominem attacks” ([05:45]). This contrasts sharply with the often hostile exchanges typical in political discourse.

c. Genuine Attempt to Understand Guests

Perhaps most commendable is Newsom’s approach to the interviews: rather than using the platform to defend his record or to preach, he seeks to understand his guests’ perspectives. Saul observes, “He spent almost the entirety of both interviews asking questions that is actually trying to better understand the perspective of the guests” ([06:00]).

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5. Specific Examples and Notable Interactions

Saul provides insights from his own experience listening to the podcasts with Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon:

• Steve Bannon’s Candor: Despite Bannon's controversial reputation, Saul found value in his honesty, stating, “Bannon... said a lot of things I actually agree with and conducted himself with a good deal of candor and grace” ([06:30]).

• Newsom’s Interview Technique: Saul praises Newsom for eliciting thoughtful responses without forcing guests into defensive positions, enabling a more authentic exchange of ideas ([06:50]).

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6. Rebuttal to Media Criticisms

Addressing the critiques from Michelle Goldberg and Zeeshan Aleem (MSNBC), Saul counters:

• On Seeking Common Ground: Goldberg criticized Newsom for seemingly favoring consensus over debate. Saul rebuts by arguing, “That is not actually what being open-minded or curious is about” ([08:00]). He suggests that seeking understanding is a more constructive approach than confrontational debating.

• On Handling Misinformation: Aleem contended that Newsom allowed misinformation to go unchallenged. Saul disagrees, pointing out instances where Newsom did push back effectively, such as when Bannon falsely claimed the 2020 election was stolen. He notes, “Newsom smoothly applied by audibly laughing in his face at the absurdity of this position” ([08:30]).

Saul admits Newsom is not without flaws, acknowledging moments where he could have interjected more forcefully. However, he maintains that the overall approach fosters a healthier political dialogue.

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7. Conclusion: A Path Forward for Political Discourse

Isaac Saul concludes by lauding Newsom’s initiative as a rare and necessary effort to bridge political divides. He emphasizes the value of earnest dialogue over partisan clashes, stating, “It's an encouraging sign of where our political leaders are headed and a healthy response from a party leader whose party just lost a lot of power in the last election” ([09:00]). Saul advocates for more such efforts to foster understanding and step back from divisive rhetoric, expressing hope that Newsom's approach could inspire a more constructive political environment.

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Notable Quotes

• Isaac Saul on Newsom’s Campaign Ambitions:
  “I said that his podcast was basically his campaign announcement.” ([04:00])

• Adam Kinzinger on Newsom’s Podcast:
  “Unforgivable and insane.” ([04:05])

• Isaac Saul on the Podcast's Dialogues:
  “There is very little gotcha nonsense or thunderdome elements that we see on CNN or Fox News.” ([08:45])

• Michelle Goldberg’s Critique:
  “Newsom tries to use right-wing influencers to fix his image.” ([03:15])

• Isaac Saul on Media Degradation of Political Dialogue:
  “It's the same unoriginal approach happening all across the media that has continued to degrade political dialogue.” ([09:30])

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Key Takeaways

• Gavin Newsom’s Bold Move: Launching a podcast featuring right-wing guests to foster political dialogue.

• Mixed Reactions: While facing significant criticism from media and political figures, Newsom's approach is commended for its inclusivity and respectful discourse.

• Isaac Saul’s Defense: Highlights the importance of understanding differing perspectives and praises Newsom for creating a platform for genuine conversation.

• Encouraging Healthy Dialogue: Emphasizes the need for more initiatives that bridge political divides, moving away from hostile and partisan exchanges.

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For more insights and discussions, visit readtangle.com and subscribe to the Tangle newsletter.

Transcript

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[Isaac Saul]

Executive Producer Isaac Saul this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast. A place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul and this is me defending Gavin Newsom. So in case you guys somehow missed a California's Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom, he's doing something unforgivable. He get this, hold on to your hats here. He's having conversations with people he disagrees with and worse. Worse yet, worst of all, he's not even informing them how wrong their worldviews are. Gavin Newsom recently launched a podcast called this Is Gavin Newsom. The show is advertised as a way for Newsom to sit down with a wide range of political thinkers, with a special emphasis on MAGA personalities who see politics very differently than Democrats do. So far, it's living up to its billing. Newsom has already interviewed conservative activists and Trump's Gen Z whisperer Charlie Kirk conservative commentator Michael Savage and Steve Bannon, the longtime MAGA mogul who was recently released from prison and has been fully and totally branded as a deeply evil racist hate monger. Newsom's project has rightly sparked a lot of speculation about his intentions to hop into the 2028 race, including from me on last week's Sunday podcast. I said that his podcast was basically his campaign announcement. The podcast has also birthed a never ending stream of criticism. What on earth is Gavin Newsom doing? Michelle Goldberg asked at the New York Times. Newsom tries to use right wing influencers to fix his image. Don't fall for it, des Potas wrote in USA Today. A letter to the editor in the Sacramento Bee read, governor Gavin Newsom could step up to be a better leader that California needs. Instead, he he made a podcast at the Guardian. Margaret Sullivan said, why is Gavin Newsom handing Steve Bannon a megaphone, perhaps unaware that Bannon himself has one of the most popular podcasts in the world? Others branded the podcast as cringe or said it backfired.

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[Isaac Saul]

Newsom out for lying when he claimed he never used the term Latinx. Anti Trump Republican Adam Kinzinger said he was in shock at the stupidity of Newsom having Bannon on his show, calling it, quote, unforgivable and insane, end quote. In reaction to the podcast, Newsom's favorability among liberals cratered, dropping from 46% to 30%. The same polling showed Republicans overwhelmingly believed him to be insincere, calling him fake and pandering. The show now has an abysmal 2.8 out of 5 star rating on Apple podcasts, which is basically as bad as you can get, which honestly is a shame. I actually listened to the episodes with Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon and I have to say I quite liked them. I really did. A few things about Newsom's approach stood out to me as remarkable and novel that I feel like I should call out and defend a little bit here. First, it's incredible that these conversations are happening at all. Literally incredible. Many liberals and Democrats claim to be open minded to right wing ideas, but limit their intake of conservative media to exclusively never Trump Republicans who share a great deal of their worldview. Newsom did not launch a purportedly ideologically diverse podcast and then invite on, say, David French of the New York Times, a famous Never Trumper. He immediately brought on guests that, as the commentary above demonstrates, are considered off limits to a lot of people in left wing bubbles. Newsom's decision to sit down for a lengthy interview with someone like Kirk or Bannon is even more extraordinary given his status. He's not a journalist or an influencer. He's a politician, and a rather prominent one at that. We'll be right back after this quick break.

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The second thing that was remarkable is that both the discussions I listened to were cordial. Despite the radical differences in worldview between host and guest, neither devolved into shouting matches or ad hominem attacks, and Newsom even managed to laugh off a few barbs from Kirk and Bannon that were clearly bait to send the conversation off the rails. Third, and perhaps most impressive, Newsom didn't use the interviews to defend his record, preach his own views, or try to prove his guests wrong. He spent almost the entirety of both interviews asking questions that is actually trying to better understand the perspective of the guests. Bannon, who I happen to think is a lying, dishonorable political cretin, said a lot of things I actually agree with and conducted himself with a good deal of candor and grace. I learned more about his worldview, and while I still loathe much of what he's done to degrade our politics, not to mention screw over Trump supporters, I left better understanding how and why he believes what he believes. Newsom got him to act like a normal human being and also gave him space to state his opinions clearly. I simply cannot overemphasize how refreshing that is. Sadly, I can't understate how unsurprising it was to see it get pilloried by the left. Michelle Goldberg said she was, quote, open to the idea of Newsom's podcast until she realized the governor frequently seems less interested in arguing than in finding common ground, assuming the good faith of people who have next to none to state that differently. Goldberg was open to the idea of the podcast until she realized Newsom might emphasize common ground or or let guests speak uninterrupted rather than debating all of them until presumably they submitted to the worldview she shares with Newsom. That is not actually what being open minded or curious is about. And perhaps more to the point, it's the same unoriginal approach happening all across the media that has continued to degrade political dialogue. And for what it's worth, also completely failed the left politically. In msnbc, Zeeshan Aleem said Newsom allowed Bannon to casually lie about the 2020 election without pushback and to define right wing populism as anti elitist without any substantive objection about Trump's billionaire friendly presidency. I have actually interacted with Aleem a few times and believe him to be an honest broker, but I don't think either of these characterizations are quite right on the former. Bannon preempted Newsom's pushback by saying they did steal, according to us, the 2020 election pushback. Newsom smoothly applied by audibly laughing in his face at the absurdity of this position. And on the latter, Newsom pushed back directly and verbally, leading to an extended exchange about Elon Musk and the billionaires Trump has courted into his administration. He didn't just let him off like Goldberg, Aleem concluded his criticism of the show by bemoaning the fact that, quote, it wasn't a debate. Was Newsom at times disingenuous or dodgy? Yes, he was. That is sort of his entire brand. He's a tall, handsome, slippery car salesman like talker who is extremely good at political comms. But at least he is in the arena with these people having real conversations, allowing them to be critical of his own perspectives, asking smart questions and conceding the obvious reality that Democrats are out to see right now. That's far more than most Democratic politicians or pundits can say. I really can't think of any other well known elected Democrat who has the kind of candor about the party's political weaknesses that Newsom displayed in these conversations. Aside from maybe Bernie Sanders though, he's an independent and that is literally his entire brand. The show and its implied purpose certainly invites reasonable criticism. In USA Today, POTUS warned his readers that Newsom is trying to find votes and support and most of all power, not necessarily consensus. I think that's probably true. Goldberg also made a couple reasonable suggestions about places where Newsom could have pushed back. For instance, Newsom was well within his rights to agree with Kirk about trans women in sport sports, but for his own benefit. If Newsom is going to simultaneously claim to champion LGBT rights, which he did on the show, he's going to come off as a rather weak kneed champion. If he doesn't push Kirk about his previously stated view that trans women were quote, disgusting, mentally ill, neurotic, predatory freaks. End quote. He also might have interjected when Kirk described his organization Turning Point USA as some kind of gritty startup that blossomed through Kirk's college campus appearances. It was backed by a Tea Party activist and ceded money from a deep pocketed evangelical mega donor. These are all fair call outs, but again they're smaller criticisms within a much more important larger thrust of this show. Newsom is doing something few liberal members of the media ever do, let alone left of center politicians. He's sitting with scarlet letter conservatives by his side and trying to better understand them, however self serving Newsom's intentions might be. The dialogue is earnest and there is very little gotcha nonsense or thunderdome elements that we see on CNN or Fox News. For all of that, I'm grateful and I found the show genuinely appealing. It's not just in the Tangle ethos, but it's an encouraging sign of where our political leaders are headed and a healthy response from a party leader whose party just lost a lot of power in the last election. We should all want more of this, not less, if we have any hope of our country stepping back from the abyss. And I figured it was about time somebody said so. All right, that is it for today's podcast. We'll see you guys on Sunday. Have a good one. Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wilson. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will K Back, Bailey Saul and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75.

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