David Sousi (4:07)

Hey, Will, thanks for having me.

Will K. Back Tangle (4:10)

So I want to start with the topic that I think is top of mind for most people, which is how the government shutdown is impacting air safety, the extent to which it is impacting air safety. We've gotten reports in the last 24 hours or so about several airports across the United States that are experiencing delays or flight cancellations because of air traffic controller shortages. It seems to be exacerbated on top of the existing shortages that we've talked about when we talked just eight months ago after the plane crash in Washington, D.C. so I'd love to just get the lay of the land. From your perspective, how severe are these shortages? What are you hearing from people in air traffic control, and is there an air safety risk that's elevated right now because of the shutdown?

David Sousi (4:58)

Well, it's a great question, but there's two sides to it. You know, we talk about the pressures and the fact that there's delays and that sort of thing due to air traffic control shortages or controller shortages. But the important thing to remember is those existed before the government shut down. I haven't seen an increase in those things, although it's being touted as that's why things are more delayed. But it's important to point out that everyone in this industry, all the air traffic controllers, the airway safety specialists, the pilots themselves, all of the folks that are part of this team understand that they have a 24, 7 job here. They knew that when they got into it. They signed contracts saying that they would stay in here and hang out, be there for everybody, because it's a common good and they understand that professionals do. And so I want to make that clear that no one's intentionally begging off of the work or whatever needs to be done right now, other than a few that may have called in sick more than they would have. They're using their sick days. But that can come back to haunt them, too, because if that's determined to be some kind of job action, like they're saying, hey, we're disputing what's going on with our pay or whatever it is, then they could be banned from federal employment completely. And the unions actually notified those air traffic controllers to make sure that they're not doing that if they're legitimately sick. Take your sick leave, but don't use your sick leave as a ploy.

Will K. Back Tangle (6:22)

Quick follow up on the sick leave question. In particular, I saw Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy said that they had noticed a slight uptick, I think was the words that he used in the sick day request since the start of the shutdown. How would that be determined, whether somebody was using a sick day to beg off of work?

David Sousi (6:40)

Well, it's only if it's under investigation. They look for things that are suspicious, such as a change in how much sick days they've had over the past few years, that sort of thing. But I would expect to see a slight uptick, because here's what happens is if you don't use use those sick days, you can lose them. And so if you have an opportunity at this point to take them, you'll take them. And if it's because you're not getting paid right now, it might help that. But it still comes down to whether if you are investigated and they have to come back and check it, you'll have to show a doctor's note or have a witness or something like that that said, yes, I was truly sick and unable to be at work. So that's where it would come into play. No one has to prove it up front at this point. But if it does become that, then that can become an issue. Yeah.

Will K. Back Tangle (7:24)

There was also a report I read this morning that was from the Burbank Airport that they went six hours without any air traffic controllers in the past day. That's obviously a smaller airport. That's not a major airport like we've seen. Nashville, Chicago, Dallas, a few others have had shortages that have led to some delays, but not an outright dearth of air traffic controllers. Do you worry at all about the potential for situations like Burbank becoming more common as the shutdown continues?

David Sousi (7:56)

I'm not really concerned about that becoming more common, but that does happen. And when it does, there's backup plans for that. There's doubled redundancy and triple redundancy for that type of situation. At this point, Burbank can transfer their air traffic controls to other facilities. That's one option. As far as the ground control and what's going on there, what happens there is that they monitor that and they advise pilots. If there's no air traffic control, no one to handle that, then those calls are routed to another area and they'll tell them, take your alternate airport if it's too busy, or they can't land there. So there's contingencies for all of that. When you say there's no air traffic controllers for this many hours, that doesn't mean that there weren't any flights landing there. It doesn't mean that everything is unsafe. The safety factors and the margins of error are there. So if there was something that happens, the pilots are aware of it ahead of time, what's coming. They know if they have enough fuel to get to the next destination if needed.

Will K. Back Tangle (8:58)

When you're talking to people who are in the industry right now, what are they feeling about the shutdown, both within air traffic control and other parts of the air safety infrastructure?

David Sousi (9:09)

Well, I've spoken with many pilots over the last few days just to see what is the impact, what's going on, are they getting delays, are they getting movement? And one in particular, I'll just use the name Andrew right now. But I spoke to Andrew and he said he flew into Las Vegas, he flew into Back East. He pretty much went all the way across the country just yesterday. And he said it was totally transparent. There's nothing that was different. There was no notams that came out that said, hey, don't go to this airport, or that everything was exactly normal. And that's what I've heard from several other pilots as well over the last few days. So I'm not seeing that there's any criticality or there's anything that's affecting safety. I do think that over time, if this goes on too long, it can make some delays. It will have some impact. The thing that flyers need to remember is that how that impacts them is not in a safety mode. What affects them is their schedule. That at that point what's going to happen is if there is some shortages of air traffic controllers, which as I mentioned, it's been that way before. And what happens there is they, like with LaGuardia and a few of the other airports, they reduce their ability to land there. They have a limit on how many planes can land. And so they limit that. And the pilots know that ahead of time. The airlines know that ahead of time. So my advice to travelers today in this situation is to keep calm, plan ahead, make sure that you're prepared for delays, mentally prepare yourself, don't get upset when the schedule changes because you can now expect that to happen as you should normally anyway. But I think be very aware of the fact that schedules can change and be very calm and patient about the fact that you have professionals that are trying to do the right thing for your safety.

Isaac Saul (11:01)

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Will K. Back Tangle (13:16)

When we spoke in February following the airplane and the helicopter crash in Washington D.C. we talked through a few different areas of air safety. I mean, you reiterated a similar message to what you're saying now, which is that by and large the US Aviation system, commercial aviation system is very safe. There's these multiple levels of redundancy that prevent disasters like that from occurring. But obviously things like the air traffic controller shortage are real and they have been long standing issues and there are concerns to address. In the time since that crash, it's been about eight and a half months now, have you noticed any immediate changes in the air safety infrastructure systems and are there areas of concern that persist coming out of an event like that?

David Sousi (14:06)

Well, what's interesting is within the FAA air traffic area, we'll address that first. But the air traffic area, what I have noticed is there's a lot more notices coming out about what the limits are for a particular airport. They didn't really see that that much before. If they had shortages they would just try to double staff or they would have one controller carry two stations, that sort of thing. That's really reduced. I haven't seen a lot of that lately. What I do see is the fact that the FAA is making notices that this airport is at capacity or that the capacity has changed and they'll put out a notam that says this airport or a notice to the air carriers saying that this airport is above its limit right now. So you're going to have to divert flights or change flights or cancel flights to accommodate that. So in the past, prior to the incident in Washington, we really didn't see that much at all. They just continued to drive these air traffic controllers more and more and more. Longer hours, having to carry more stations, fewer supervisors. That's how they used to do it. They don't do that anymore. From my experience at this point, I've.

Will K. Back Tangle (15:10)

Also seen that there is an effort to graduate these new classes of air traffic controllers on somewhat of an expedited timeline. Are you aware of those reports or have you read about that?

David Sousi (15:21)

I have not read about that. It would surprise me that if it's expedited, I'm very familiar with what that program is, having gone to the Aeronautical Academy myself. But not very traffic, but we eat lunch with, we hang out with those same people that are in those programs. And the washout rates were very high, at least 50%. So I would probably need to do some research to find out if that washout rate has changed. That would be my primary concern. But an expedited schedule can certainly be done and still maintain the capability, the capacity. What we're looking for in an air traffic controller is the knowledge, the skills, the abilities, and any other thing that might have to do with it, like their personality, can they handle it? Can they not their psychological profile. So those are all things that are looked at even under expedited training. What I would expect that to be. And again, I don't know for certain, but if I was to do an expedited training, I would simply have the training go longer hours during the day. So they used to only do four hours a day, and, and now if they expedited, that brought it up to six or seven hours per day. I think that might be a way to expedite it and still maintain a safe training mechanism.

Will K. Back Tangle (16:32)

Sure. Do you think that the situation with the supply of new air traffic controllers demands that right now?

David Sousi (16:39)

Absolutely it does. It's been demanding that for a lot of years. There's still. They keep saying that there's maybe 2,000 short and then the number changes to 3,000. But in my estimation, especially if they're bringing in a new system right now, they're not only going to have to train new people, they're going to have to train the existing people on the new system. So what I would be doing, if I'm looking at budgets right now, I'd be dumping everything I can into that training budget out there at the Mike Munroney Aeronautical center and other places for air traffic controllers to get the training, to prepare the training, and to make it efficient and effective, because just training 2,000 new people is one thing, but taking the habits of the experienced air traffic controllers and putting them into a new system could be very, very difficult to do.

Will K. Back Tangle (17:24)

David, I want to just finish by circling back on this question of the status of air safety and how people should feel about flying in the United States right now. So can you just reiterate or put a pin in that message of the degree to which there should be any change in how people evaluate flying right now in the midst of this government shutdown?

David Sousi (17:44)

Well, that's a good question. I get it quite often. And my first response in that question is to say that aviation safety and your opinion of aviation safety is very personal. If you feel unsafe in flying, then don't fly. That's really what it comes down to. But having said that, I could sit here and tell you it's the safest thing in the world, which it really is. You're safer in the sky than you are on a train. You're safer in the sky than you are on a bus or in your car or any other mode of transportation. Now, those are statistics, and that doesn't help someone who's just literally afraid to fly. So what we're trying to do is I hope that I can influence people to understand just how many professionals. There's tens of thousands of people who devoted their entire life to making your flight safe. That one flight. And the engineers that build the airplanes, the airplanes themselves, how structurally sound they are. It's really easy as a flyer to start focusing in on these one events or this one event, and understand that there's, again, tens of thousands of flights every day that successfully complete and go in there. And I recommend that you look at any of the air traffic control sites where you can see the actual airplane movements, and you'll see just exactly how many safe flights are completed every single day. And that may help with any concerns you have about it. But is there anything right now? Is there something that has to be done right now? There's always something that has to be done right now with safety. There always is there, but there's also triple redundancy on everything. If there's something fails, there's something behind that. If that fails, there's something behind that. And not only triple redundancy, but the ability to indicate and communicate the fact that something has failed and to put a stop to it at that point. Those safety mechanisms are all there, and they're all there for your own safety. So I hope that helps people.

Will K. Back Tangle (19:40)

Yeah, I mean, I certainly appreciate that perspective. Just as someone who pays attention to the reports that you mention about incidents in the air, obviously we covered the DC plane crash. I think it is really helpful perspective to keep in mind and appreciate your insight across the board, especially as it relates to this shutdown. David, if people want to follow along as you're continuing to talk and write about this, where would be the best place for them to do that?

David Sousi (20:03)

Well, I have a YouTube channel you can just look up. David Sousi. I think it's under D R S o O S, Dr. Seuss or something on YouTube. But I also got a site called why Planes Crash, which isn't very comforting for people. So what I did was I'm very excited about the new thing that I'm doing now. It's called mysafeskies.com and what my Safe Skies is is for hesitant flyers. They can go there, they can research their flight, they can find out how old their airplane is. We haven't kicked this off yet. It's going to be about another month in the making, but we'll have it up and running before the holiday season of travel. And at that point you'll be able to listen to various blogs and podcasts that we do with people that are afraid to fly. This evening on doing an interview with a lady named Kelly who is just really afraid of turbulence. And I asked her, I said, what is it about turbulence that scares you? She goes, it's just violent. It's scary. And I said, do you know what turbulence is? And she said, yeah, I do. And I said, do you? She goes, actually, I have no idea what turbulence is. So I said, let's start with that. So the podcast this evening is going to be interesting and that'll be posted on that. My Safe Skies. So if you're hesitant about flying, if you want to know what's going on in the air, go to mysafeskies.com after this month and and you'll be able to get a lot of information to make you more comfortable about flying.

Will K. Back Tangle (21:24)

Awesome. Well, David, thank you again for the time and looking forward to hopefully having you back to talk about the air traffic controller shortage being addressed and some of these issues that we're talking about being patched. But in the meantime we'll be following along and thanks again for your work.

David Sousi (21:40)

Great. Thank you, Will. And thank you for your work and thanks Tangle for what you're doing in the news media areas.

Will K. Back Tangle (21:46)

Appreciate that.

Isaac Saul (21:51)

Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Lal. Today's episode was edited and engineered by John Lal. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kbach and Associate Associate Editors Audrey Moorhead. Bailey saw Lindsay Knuth. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75 and John Law. And to learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com.

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