Ari Weitzman (3:34)

Thanks, Isaac, and welcome, everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, U.S. district Judge James Boasberg said he found probable cause that the Trump administration had violated his March order to return two planes deporting migrants to El Salvador. Boasberg said he would begin contempt proceedings against the Trump administration unless it takes action to bring the deportees back into U.S. custody. Number two, the Trump administration asked the Internal Revenue Service to start the process of revoking Harvard University's tax exempt status. Separately, the Department of Homeland Security said it would revoke Harvard's eligibility to enroll foreign students if it did not comply with the Trump administration's demand that it share disciplinary records on some visa holders. Number three, the Justice Department announced it would sue Maine over its failure to comply with President Trump's executive order banning transgender women from participating in in sports. And number five, the United Kingdom Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the legal definition of woman excludes transgender women and only refers to biological sex. The court added that this interpretation did not remove discrimination protections for transgender people, a hardline position today from President Trump and multiple members of his Cabinet about the possible return of a Maryland father who was mistakenly deported and is now.

Isaac Saul (5:07)

In a notorious Salvadoran prison. Their overall message, no, that's up to El Salvador.

John Law (5:14)

If they want to return him, that's not up to us. The Supreme Court ruled, President, that if.

Isaac Saul (5:20)

As El Salvador wants to return him, this is international matters, foreign affairs.

John Law (5:24)

If they wanted to return him, we would facilitate it, meaning provide a plane.

Ari Weitzman (5:31)

How can I return him to the United States?

John Law (5:32)

Like, could I smuggle him into the United States or what do I do? Of course I'm not going to do it. It's like, I mean, the question is preposterous.

Ari Weitzman (5:42)

On Monday, President Donald Trump hosted Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele at the White House amid a protracted legal fight over Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a man mistaken sent to prison in El Salvador by the Trump administration. During an Oval Office press conference, Bukele said he did not have the power to return Abrego Garcia to the United States. The comments follow a Supreme Court decision upholding a federal judge's order that the administration must work to return Abrego Garcia to the United States. For context, the Trump administration has worked closely with President Bukele to transfer hundreds of alleged gang members from the United States to El Salvador's terrorism confinement center. Abrego Garcia was among those sent to the prison in March. After his removal, the Trump administration acknowledged they had mistakenly deported him due to an administrative error. A 2019 court order had blocked his deportation to El Salvador due to threats on his life, but maintained it could not force El Salvador to return him. On April 10, the Supreme Court upheld U.S. district Judge Polizinas order to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return, but sent the case back to the judge to clarify her use of the word effectuate. Since then, the Trump administration has argued that the Supreme Court has not required it to seek Abrego Garcia's release and that the federal judge had overstepped her authority in issuing the ruling. We covered the latest in Abrego Garcia's case on Monday and you can read more about it with a link in today's episode Description during the Oval Office meeting, President Bukele directly addressed the question of whether he would return Abrego Garcia, saying, how can I smuggle a terrorist into the United States? Of course I'm not going to do it. The question is preposterous. Other White House officials at the meeting affirm the Trump administration's stance. The foreign policy of the United States is conducted by the president of the United States, not a court, secretary of State Marco Rubio said. Attorney General Pam Bondi said the administration did not interpret the Supreme Court's ruling as a direct order to bring Abrego Garcia back to the U.S. the Supreme Court ruled that if El Salvador wants to return him, we would facilitate it, meaning provide a plane, bondi said. Separately, while touring the Oval Office, President Trump told Bukele he wanted to send homegrown criminals to El Salvador, seemingly referring to US Citizens convicted of crimes. On Tuesday, Trump expanded on his comments in an interview in Fox Noticias, saying his administration was looking into the possibility of sending US Citizens to prison in El Salvador. Democratic lawmakers have continued to push for Abrego Garcia's release, and on Wednesday, Senator Chris Van Hollen, the Democrat from Maryland, traveled to El Salvador in an attempt to pressure the government to release him. The goal of this mission is to let the Trump administration to let the government of El Salvador know that we are going to keep fighting to bring Abrego Garcia home until he returns to his family, van Hollen said. Today we'll survey arguments from the left and the right about Bukele's White House visit and then Isaac's take.

John Law (8:55)

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Isaac Saul (10:23)

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Ari Weitzman (11:01)

Alright, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left is outraged by Bukele and the administration's comments arguing that Trump is laying the groundwork to imprison U.S. citizens abroad. Some say Bukele gave the administration cover for its defiance of the courts. Others call on the Supreme Court to issue a firmer order on the case. In the Hill, Max Burns wrote, you could be the next one unlawfully imprisoned in Trump's Salvadoran gulag. The idea that Trump would deport US Citizens to specially built foreign megaprisons outside the reach of the American justice system should cause a national shockwave, Burns said. If Trump can willfully violate a unanimous Supreme Court order and strip due process rights from legal noncitizens, there is nothing stopping him from doing the same to Americans. Gilmar Abrego Garcia's unending nightmare is not some bizarre legal freak of nature. It is a warning that once a president has discarded the rule of law for some people, nothing stops him from discarding the rule of law for anyone. Bukele's sprawling Secat megaprison has earned a horrific reputation for violence and torture. Many legal migrants who have committed no crimes now live in fear of being black bagged and shipped off to El Salvador. This is part of the cultural terrorism Trump hoped to inflict, burns wrote. We are living through a profound criminalization of political opinion and horrifying disregard of the courts. Republican lawmakers who swore an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution now stand passively mute as that Constitution is trampled in full view of the public. In msnbc, Jordan Rubin suggested Nayib Bukele's White House performance plays into Trump's litigation defiance ahead of a Tuesday hearing in Kilmar Abrego Garcia's case. A court filing from the Trump administration also shows how US Officials are enlisting Bukele in their defiant litigation stance in that case, Rubin said. The government status report, which appeared on the docket about an hour after the administration's 5pm deadline, quoted Bukele's response to a reporter's question. I hope you're not suggesting that I smuggle a terrorist into the United States. How can I smuggle a terrorist into the United States? Of course I'm not going to do it. Monday's reference to Bukele's comments simply offers them without explaining the government's view on their relevance. The administration's implication could be that there's no point in taking any facilitation steps because they won't lead to Abrego Garcia's return without Bukele's support. But again, that doesn't address the underlying question of what steps US Officials have taken to comply with the order to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return, regardless of whether those steps are ultimately successful. In Newsweek, Thomas G. McCosher said the Supreme Court must make Trump feel pain. The administration is making a mockery of the court. Bukele even flew up to join in the fun, declaring in the Oval Office in front of a smiling Trump, of course I'm not going to do it. What do they have to do before the Supreme Court takes this seriously? Climb up to the courthouse steps and slap each one of the justices in the face? McCaughre said. Unfortunately, the justices asked for this treatment when they gave Trump enormous loopholes in their recent order. They suggested Judge Polizanis likely couldn't order Trump's administration to effectuate Abreco Garcia's return to ensure it actually happened. Yes, we can sympathize with the high court as it tries to head off a showdown with the Trump administration. But shouldn't they understand Trump by now? He's a mini mafia boss, a bully who backs down when people stand up to him and runs roughshod when they don't, McCosher said. Justices, there's nowhere to hide. Let the lower court build a record. It issued a clear directive. Trump himself controls this matter and is ignoring the order. Zenis should find Trump personally in an amount that he will pay attention to. Let's say $5 million a day collectible after he leaves office until he obeys. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. Many on the right criticize Democrats for prioritizing Abrego Garcia's case over domestic issues. Some say the left is blowing the story out of proportion at its own peril. Others caution against escalating a standoff with the court. In the Federalist, Eddie Scarry said Democrats drop everything to bring back a deported illegal alien. Maryland Democrat Senator Chris Van Hollen flew 2,000 miles on Wednesday from Washington, D.C. to San Salvador, arranging a meeting with local and American officials there. Van Hollen isn't facilitating the rescue of a wrongly accused imprisoned US Citizen or engaging in diplomatic relations with a foreign nation. He's literally there conducting a welfare check on a Salvadoran, skerry wrote. I guess there weren't any actual US Citizens in need of Van Hollen's time. If there are, surely they can wait while he addresses the needs of a Salvadoran first. In any event, the Trump administration sent him to El Salvador again, his home. And though a subsequent court order by Democrat appointed Judge Polozenis demanded that he be returned to the US Both the White House and El Salvador's President Nayib Bukele have said they won't and can't. Scarry said Van Hollen won't be the last Democrat to embark on the holy journey for noncitizens who broke the law by trespassing our borders. Every Democrat in Congress should make the trip and let their constituents, the American ones, know where their priorities lie. In the Washington Examiner, Kahn Carroll argued Abrego Garcia isn't the winning political issue Democrats think he is. One might think that with President Donald Trump unilaterally sending the economy into recession, Democrats might become at least temporary champions of free trade in an effort to find their way back out of the political wilderness. But instead, Democrats have chosen a different path. Despite the fact that immigration is the one issue voters still give Trump the highest marks on Democrats have chosen to make a man named Kilmar Abrego Garcia the face of Trump's resistance, carroll wrote. The problem is that Democrats leave out a lot of Garcia's story, and the truth makes Trump's failure to return him quite reasonable. For starters, Garcia was not in the United States legally. By his lawyer's own admission, he entered the country illegally in 2011. Then, eight years later, Garcia was arrested at a Home Depot while illegally soliciting employment, carroll wrote. After years of aiding and abetting a completely open border where thousands of murdering rapists like Jose Antonio Ibera, Victor Antonio Martinez Hernandez and Johan Jose Martinez Wrangel were free to enter without any meaningful background check, the argument by the Democrats that Trump should now move heaven and earth to bring an admitted illegal immigrant back to the United States even though he has no legal right to be here rings hollow, the Wall Street Journal editorial board wrote about Trump, Abrego Garcia and the courts. The judge on Friday demanded an immediate administration report. And now the White House seems to have decided it can do a legal dance to claim it doesn't have to facilitate anything. That was clear from the Kabuki theater Monday when Mr. Trump appeared in the Oval Office with El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, the board said. Since Mr. Bukele says he won't cooperate, the US can say it can't deliver. The federal courts lack authority to direct the president's foreign policy under Article 2 of the Constitution, let alone the actions of El Salvador. Mr. Trump would be wise to settle all of this quietly by asking Mr. Bukele to return Mr. Abrego Garcia, who has a family in the US but the President may be bloody minded enough that he wants to show the judiciary who's boss, the board wrote Mr. Trump would be smart to play the long game. He has many much bigger issues than the fate of one man that will come before the Supreme Court. By taunting the judiciary in this manner, he is inviting a rebuke on cases that carry far greater stakes. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take.

John Law (19:32)

All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take. So David Brooks once said something about President Donald Trump that I've been thinking about basically all week. He said that he has the wrong answers to all the right questions. I want to give an olive branch to the Trump administration right now before I say some of what I'm about to say. President Biden and the Democrats, they made an absolute mess of the immigration issue. Some politicians and members of the media put their heads in the sand about this during Biden's term, but I did not. We had historic, overwhelming levels of migrant crossings under Biden. This was a crisis that impacted cities as far away from the southern border as New York and Chicago. Those are huge cities with massive budgets. So you can imagine what it did to smaller, poorer towns near the border and in states like Texas and Arizona and New Mexico. And that's to say nothing of the immigrants Biden worked to get here en masse through loopholes in our parole system and inventing programs like the CBP1 app. One could argue that Trump inherited a relatively stable economy that he's now disrupting with a tariff policy. One cannot argue that Trump inherited a functioning, stable, healthy immigration system. Indeed, immigration was a key issue that led to Trump's re election. And in his first few months, he has had tremendous success, continuing to reduce the number of illegal border crossings, which fell toward the end of Biden's term, and unwinding some of the unwise programs Biden implemented through executive fiat. If Democrats ever want to win another national election, they will eventually need to own this mistake and stake out better policy and political ground. Some liberals have started to grapple with this reality, but many have not, at the same time identifying this problem, asking the right question of how do we fix it? It's not an excuse for coming up with a very bad answer. President Bukele's visit to the White House this week gave us an interesting look into how Trump gets his information about his administration's actions. I'm going to have John just run a clip of this interaction between Stephen Miller and Donald Trump in the White House.

Ari Weitzman (21:47)

In the Supreme Court. Steve, was it nine to nothing?

John Law (21:49)

Yes, it was a nine zero in our favor. In our favor against the district court ruling. Of course, this is not what happened on Earth one here. In reality, the Trump administration tried to block a district court order that directed them to facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia from El Salvador. The Supreme Court ruled without any dissents not to block the order, definitionally ruling against the Trump administration 9 to 0 in ordering the lower court to clarify its wording. The justices told U.S. district Judge Paul Ozinis that she should remember the deference owed to the executive branch in the conduct of foreign affairs and also clarify her use of the term effectuate. Can the court force El Salvador to do something? Should it merely oversee that the administration is trying or something else? In essence, the Supreme Court said the Trump administration needed to correct its admitted error. Remember, the Trump administration conceded its mistake in court in sending Abrego Garcia to El Salvador and then attempt to get him home. They said this unanimously. But the court also left some room for the Trump administration to prevail in the lower courts if it says it is tried but simply cannot bring Abrego Garcia back, which you can read as a kind of victory, but only if your intent is to openly defy a court order and leave Abrego Garcia rotting in a Salvadoran prison. That ambiguous zone of interpreting what the government must do. It's where we are now. In a post on x, Vice President J.D. vance argued that Biden's immigration crisis has strained our country, that observing due process is a matter of resources, the public interest and the status of the accused, and that the media is obsessing over an MS.13 gang member because they really just want to demand he be returned for a third deportation hearing because they want the vast majority of illegal aliens to stay here permanently. Vance then poses a question. Ask the people weeping over the lack of due process what precisely they propose for dealing with Biden's millions and millions of illegals and with reasonable resources and administration administrative judge constraints, does their solution allow us to deport at least a few million people per year? The administration is still on incredibly poor legal footing, but this argument at least has some compelling elements. It's much stronger than the argument that we can't make them give him back and it's up to El Salvador, which is insulting to our intelligence. A lot of the context behind Abrego Garcia's deportation, the border crisis, the flow of unauthorized migrants. It is Biden's fault. There is a real question of how best to use our limited resources. Abrego Garcia would likely just be deported again if he were brought home, just not to El Salvador. Many people, especially on the left, don't want anything about the current immigration system Trump inherited to change or don't see a problem with it. Vance is right on all of those counts. But to frame Abrego Garcia's case as only about illegal immigration is just unbelievably dishonest. Nobody would be upset about a proven gang member being deported. At least I wouldn't. Abrego Garcia very well might be a bad guy. Or he might not be. Maybe the cop who claimed he was a gang member is the actual bad guy, as some evidence suggests. I really don't know and frankly, I don't really care. Our government violated a court order while effectively sentencing Abrego Garcia to life in one of the harshest prisons in the world, built for terrorists and the most dangerous gang members on the planet without even accusing him of a crime other than coming here illegally. Now it appears to be gleefully defying a Supreme Court ruling. That's what people like me are upset about. That's what Trump and Miller and Vance are dishonestly leaving out of their framing. Vance's argument is also alarming because it is dangerous. It turns due process into some optional, squishy requirement that can be observed or denied by our government based on what they say is possible without the resources they have or the public interest as they define it. Is that a can of worms he wants to open? That due process is now conditional. Does Vance or Trump ever imagine that Republicans will once again in the near future be in the political minority? Has that thought crossed their mind? If Vance's argument is that the government lacks the resources, then it can create them. This is the same administration currently proposing a $1 trillion with a T military budget, including up to $150 billion of new funding to Pentagon defense contractors. And it's paying the Salvadoran government $6 million to imprison Abrego Garcia and hundreds of others for one year. Why not put some of that money toward increasing the number of immigration judges to adjudicate these cases and clear the backlog. That's an argument I've been screaming into the void for years and one I was thrilled to see pushed in National Review this week. An actual solution to the problem that can uphold the values of law and order. The administration purports to stand for. I also want to emphasize and repeat again, this is not just about Abrego Garcia. Naturally, the administration wants the debate to be contained to his case because they believe they can frame him as one of the bad illegals. I'm not going to sit here and give you Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez's Kilmar is all of us speech. I'm genuinely amazed at how bad Democrats messaging can be. But the administration is not just targeting people who are here illegally. As I've already highlighted earlier this month, they are sweeping up permanent US Residents, immigrants with legal visas and papers. Not only that, but US Citizens. Yes, United States citizens are already getting caught in the government's dragnet. During the meeting with Bukele, Trump was caught on a hot mic suggesting we should start sending our quote unquote homegrowns to El Salvador as well. Trump then confirmed on camera that he was looking into sending US Citizens to the prison and wanted five more prisons built to accommodate them. Just to put that all down clearly in one place, the Trump administration is arguing that they cannot grant due process to every person due to resource and logistical constraints. They are also arguing that someone who ends up in a foreign prison because the government's own actions or mistakes is beyond their reach. Some of the people they're deporting haven't been accused of any crimes, and now they are suggesting they might start using this same process on US Citizens. If you put all of that together and don't get extremely alarmed, then you are not paying attention. Given all this, I have been extremely critical of the Trump administration both in tangle and on X, which has naturally invited accusations that the nonpartisan news guy suddenly caught a terrible case of Trump Derangement Syndrome, or that I'm showing my true colors is a partisan hack. On the contrary, I think I'm seeing things with a great deal of clarity. In some alternative reality, the Trump administration is winning court cases 9 to 0 and protecting American citizens from a dangerous invasion. In this reality, they're violating Supreme Court orders, deporting people against standing court orders, and violating the rights and privacy of US Citizens. There is nothing partisan about saying true things that might violate the way people see the world or prefer it to be. The discussion shouldn't be about whether I'm suddenly a partisan hack. It should be about why someone who is usually measured and moderate like is suddenly sounding the alarm bells. For context, I was angry when President Biden was trying to create the Disinformation Governance Board now Trump is snatching college students off the streets for op eds, they wrote. I was angry when we learned that the Biden administration was pressuring Facebook to take down posts it deemed dangerous to public health. Now Trump is using AI to monitor people's social media activity and forcing US Citizens to hand over their phones at points of entry. Shoot, I was critical of Biden for pursuing student loan relief through executive action. Imagine if he had actually ignored the courts that stopped him and that was when he was trying to cancel student debt, not send people to a foreign gulag. So yes, Trump inherited a serious crisis we need to solve. Millions of unauthorized migrants are still in our country and millions of them came in under Biden. Yes, solving this problem is a major logistical and resource challenge, and it's why Biden deserves ample criticism for failing to take action while millions of people illegally cross the border in a short period of time. But no, we should not forfeit due process and violate court orders and fundamentally undermine the American project of liberty to try to solve those problems. We should not allow this current administration or any other future administration to become the arbiter of when rules need to or do not need to be followed. If we open that door, then any one of us could be marched right through it. All right, that is it for my take today. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. We'll be right back after this quick break.

Isaac Saul (31:01)

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Ari Weitzman (31:32)

It's a cold day here in Alaska, but there's one animal seemingly unaffected. Bright eyed and determined enters the husky. Observe as they go up the mountain. Guided by pure instinct. They are truly amazing masters of this wilderness. But even these amazing pets can't sign up for Lemonade Pet Insurance. You can slide sign up now@lemonade.com Amazing. Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. Amid the ongoing trade war between the United States and China, the Chinese government has reportedly instructed the country's airlines to halt further deliveries of Boeing aircraft, as well as orders of aircraft related equipment and parts from any US company. Boeing is currently preparing 10737 Max jets to enter China airline fleets, but it is unclear whether any of those planes will be cleared to enter China. While China hasn't placed a major order with Boeing in recent years, the country is projected to make up 20% of global aircraft demand over the next two decades. Industry analysts suggested a sustained trade war could undermine the company's long term financial health as it seeks to rebound from a series of safety incidents and deadly crashes involving its planes. Bloomberg has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description alright, next up is our numbers section. The year Nayib Bukele was first elected as president of el Salvador was 2019. The year El Salvador declared a state of emergency, allowing law enforcement to incarcerate anyone suspected of gang activity without a warrant was 2022. The number of gangs arrested in El Salvador since the state of emergency was declared in December 2024 is 83,600, according to data from the National Civil Police and the Salvadoran Armed Forces. The number of detainees who died while in state custody between the state of emergency being declared in August 2024 is 311, according to documentation from Humanitarian Legal Aid. The number of homicides per 100,000 people in El Salvador in 2025 is 1.15, according to the Salvador National Police. The number of homicides per 100,000 people in El Salvador in 2021, the last year before the state of emergency was declared, was 18.1. The number of homicides per 100,000 people in El Salvador in 2015, the country's highest recorded rate was 103, and the percentage of the vote Bukele received in his 2024 reelection is 84.7. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. The Masters tournament, one of four major championship tournaments in professional golf, was held over the weekend in Augusta, Georgia. The tournament ended in a sudden death playoff with Rory McIlroy, who has won golf's other three majors, finally winning the event to complete his career grand slam. McIlroy collapsed with emotion after his dramatic victory, a moment captured on film by another athlete known for grand SLAMS, Ken Griffey Jr. Following his hall of Fame baseball career, Griffey is now excelling in his new profession of photography, but he's remaining humble. I'm still picking it up, griffey said. If you're not willing to learn, then your pictures aren't going to get any better. Sports Illustrated has this story and the pictures and there's a link in today's episode description. Alright everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to readtangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. A reminder that on Monday, April 21st we are going to be off in observance of Easter so you won't be receiving a newsletter or the podcast for that day. But to end this week we are working hard on an in depth piece on the SAVE act, what it covers, what it does, why it's controversial, and other questions about the bill from Tangle readers. In order to to receive that Friday edition, you need to be one of our tiered members. So head over to our membership page and sign up. We'll be back here on Tuesday. For Isaac and the rest of the team, this is John Law signing off. Have an absolutely fantastic weekend, y'all. Peace.

John Law (36:17)

Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul and our Executive producer is John Wall. Today's episode was edited and engineered by John Law. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kaback and Associate editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey, Saul, Lindsey Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75 and John Law. And to learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com.

Ari Weitzman (37:02)

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Isaac Saul (38:04)

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