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- [00:00]
Meltzer Hell Rung
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- [00:35]
Paige
This is Paige, the co host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. It's a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just Uber Eats it. The amount of times I've had to Uber eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it. On Uber Eats, you can get grocery alcohol, everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get almost every anything With Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.
- [01:36]
Lemonade Pet Insurance
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- [02:17]
Paige
From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is.
- [02:21]
Ari Weitzman
Tangle Foreign Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. And welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of our take. I'm your host for Today Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, filling in for Executive Editor Isaac Saul and our executive producer John Laws. The two are in D.C. working on a YouTube video about Congress for Tangle and so you're stuck with me today, but I'm going to do my best. Here are Today's Quick Hits. 1. The Defense Department mobilized 700 U.S. marines to Los Angeles in response to protests and riots in parts of the city. Separately, California sued the Trump administration over its deployment of the state's National Guard to Los Angeles. 2. Ukraine said that Russia launched its biggest overnight drone attack since the start of Russia's full scale invasion, launching an estimated 479 drones at various targets in the country. Separately, Russia and Ukraine completed the first stage of the prisoner exchange agreed to at last week's peace talks in Istanbul. 3. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Said he will remove every member of the independent panel advising the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention on vaccines. Kennedy says the move will allow the Trump administration to appoint its own members and restore public trust in vaccines. 4. President Donald Trump spoke with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for 40 minutes on Monday to discuss the administration's ongoing nuclear talks with Iran. And five Israel intercepted a group of activists, which included climate activist Greta Thunberg, as they attempted to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza via boat. Tunberg and others were deported foreign the United States returned Kilmar Abrego Garcia from El Salvador to face charges in Tennessee for alleged trafficking of unauthorized migrants and conspiracy. In March, Abrego Garcia was mistakenly sent to the Terrorism Confinement Center, a mega prison in El Salvador. Then in April, the Supreme Court upheld a ruling by U.S. district Court Judge Paul Asenas requiring the government to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return. El Salvador agreed to release Abrego Garcia after the US Presented it with an arrest warrant, Attorney General Pram Bondi said on Friday. The Trump administration says that Abrego Garcia's return satisfies the court's order. Let's back up. In March, the Trump administration deported Abreu Garcia and hundreds of other non citizens to a detention facility in El Salvador under the Alien enemies Act of 1798, which gives the president the wartime authority to deport any foreign nationals of an enemy nation. However, a 2019 court order blocked the government from deporting Abrego Garcia to El Salvador due to threats on his life, and the administration called his deportation an administrative error. President Donald Trump, in an April meeting with Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele, said that he was unable to return Abrega Garcia to the United States. The Justice Department now accuses Abrega Garcia of federal conspiracy to transport aliens in unlawful transportation, according to a two count grand jury indictment filed in the Middle District of Tennessee court last month. Specifically, the indictment alleges that Abrego Garcia and six unnamed co conspirators transported unauthorized migrants from the southern border through the United States in association with the gang MS.13 from 2016 to 2025. The Justice Department references a traffic stop in Tennessee in November 22nd as evidence in which Abriga Garcia was caught speeding in a modified Chevrolet Suburban with nine male passengers not carrying identification. Abrego Garcia told police he was returning to Maryland from a construction job in St. Louis, Missouri. This is what American justice looks like, attorney General Pam Bondi said. Over the past nine years, Abrego Garcia has played a significant role in an alien smuggling ring. Further, Bondi alleged that Abrego Garcia was trafficking weapons, narcotics and children for Ms. 13. Simon Sandoval Moschenburg, Abrego Garcia's attorney, accused the government of abusing its power and denied the allegations. The government disappeared Kilmar to a foreign prison in violation of a court order. Now, after months of delay and secrecy, they're bringing him back not to correct their error, but to prosecute him, sandoval Moschenburg said in a statement to cnn. Due process means the chance to defend yourself before you're punished, not after. Ben Schrader, the head of the criminal division of the U.S. attorney's office in Nashville, Tennessee resigned shortly after Brigo Garcia's indictment on Friday. Schrader did not comment on the motivation for his resignation. Abriga Garcia's arraignment hearing is scheduled for June 13th in Nashville. We're going to cover what the left and right are saying about the case and then I will read Isaac's take.
- [07:29]
Michelle Bernstein
We'll be right back after this quick break. This episode of Tangle is brought to you by Wildgrain. Wildgrain is the first baked from frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, pastries and pastas. Wild Grain's boxes are fully customizable to your taste and dietary restrictions. In addition to their classic variety box, they recently launched a new gluten free box and a plant based box that is 100% vegan. Best of all, they take the hassle out of baking since all items bake from frozen in 25 minutes or less with no mess or cleanup. I recently got a box of Wild Grain products and included in it was their six pack of the Parmesan Herb biscuits. These things were unbelievably delicious. They actually tasted like freshly baked bread after just throwing them in the oven for 25 minutes straight from frozen. So I can personally attest to how good some of this stuff really is. So if you are ready to bring all your favorite carbs right to your doorstep, be sure to check out Wild Grain so you can begin building your own box of artisanal breads, pastas and pastries. For a limited time only, Wild Grain is offering our listeners $30 off their first box plus free croissants in every box when you go to wildgrain.comtangle to start your subscription. You heard me. Free croissants in every box and $30 off your first box when you go to wildgrain.comtangle that's wildgrain.comtangle and you can use promo code Tangle at checkout.
- [08:39]
Paige
Mic.
- [08:40]
Ari Weitzman
Check one two Are we recording? Hi, I'm Michelle Bernstein, an award winning chef, restaurateur and mom. I have a lot on my plate, including my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. That's why I was prescribed Cosentix. It helps me move better.
- [08:57]
Howie Mandel
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- [09:34]
Ari Weitzman
Your rheumatologist about Cosentyx. Let's start with what the right is saying, national Review's editors wrote. Abrega Garcia faces justice regarding the celebrated case of Kilmar Abrega Garcia, who was deported to El Salvador in violation of a court order. The administration should have brought him back to the US Months ago and detained him here until it could figure out what to do with him, the editor said. After devoting countless man hours to obfuscating in courtrooms and legal briefs, the administration has finally availed itself of this obvious option. Department of justice lawyers tried to provide as few details about the government's handling of the case as possible, and the administration maintained the manifestly implausible position that there is nothing they could do to get El Salvador's President Nayib Bukele to return Abrego Garcia. All this said Abrego Garcia was never the father of the Year as the left tried to portray him, and he's going to face serious charges of human smuggling. The administration will have to prove its case in court, but the indictment includes damning facts about one incident we already knew about when Abrega Garcia was pulled over in Tennessee in 2022 with nine other Hispanic males in his vehicle, the editors wrote. Abrego Garcia never should have been in the United States in the first place and he abused the asylum process and benefited from lax enforcement and both the Obama and first Trump administrations to stay here. The Trump administration was right to want to deport him. In the Washington Examiner, Peter Laffen suggested Democrats Abrego Garcia blunder could haunt the party for years. The Democratic beatification of Kilmar Abrego Garcia stands to go down as an historic American political blunder. The illegal immigrant and MS.13 gang banger accidentally deported to his native El Salvador did not become a martyr randomly. He was purposefully chosen by Democrats and their legacy media machine to highlight the supposed evil of Trump's deportation efforts. Laffin said the legacy media spread the false idea that Abrego Garcia was a sympathetic political prisoner of Trump's supposedly racist deportation scheme. Headlines depicting him as an innocent law abiding American spread rapidly. The problem is that this framing and these facts are incorrect. Upon his return to the United States, he will face charges of human trafficking, which includes unaccompanied minors. He allegedly participated in over 100 trips from Texas to Maryland from 2016 to 2025. He is also being accused of transporting firearms and narcotics purchased in Texas for resale in Maryland, Laffan wrote. The government's evidence will surface slowly as its case unfolds. And each time the public learns some hideous new detail about Abrella Garcia's misdeeds, they will be reminded of the sympathy he from Democrats and the legacy media in those early weeks and months. In the Washington Post, Jason Willock said Abrego Garcia's return signals a major White House change. What a climb down by White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller. Miller taunted the Supreme Court lethally distorting what it had held a district judge. He claimed had told the Trump administration to kidnap a citizen of El Salvador and fly him back here. But The Supreme Court ruled 90 in our favor, Willock wrote. Four weeks afterward, Miller breathed fire in social media while the administration stonewalled in court. But on Friday, Abrega Garcia showed up in Tennessee. The Trump administration decided to kidnap him after all, to suit its changing political needs. The media can't resist turning certain subjects into saints, and reporters have labored to portray a Briga Garcia sympathetic. But the story was never about a particular migrant's character. At stake is whether the executive branch could send people from U.S. soil to foreign prisons and hold them there even when courts say it is illegal, Willock said. To convict Abrega Garcia in the United States, the executive branch has to prove he committed crimes, a non trivial step it did not take before having him incarcerated abroad. And now that he's back under the jurisdiction of US Courts, the administration will have trouble illegally deporting him a second time. In short, the Trump administration was using extralegal methods to punish Abrego Garcia. Now it seems prepared to use legal methods. That is a major change. All right, that's it for what the right is saying. Here's what the left is saying. The New York Daily News editorial board called Abrego Garcia's return a win for the rule of law, finally obeying the Supreme Court's ruling 90 to return to the U.S. kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Maryland man with legal protections who was illegally sent to the CECOT mega prison in El Salvador. The Trump administration has followed the law and brought him back. That is good, the board wrote. Whether the indictment is solid or not, Abrego Garcia will now have competent legal defense and will be before independent judges. He's entitled to all protections that are due under the Constitution, which the disappearance of him to El Salvador abrogated. There are no new facts in this case, only what was substantially already known to investigators and prosecutors. There could be myriad reasons why federal law enforcement did not take any action beforehand, ranging from lack of evidence to simple resource allocation, the board said. But what is certain is the only reason why they're pursuing it now to send the signal that the Trump government won't tolerate questioning its enforcement efforts and that if you become enough of a public thorn in their side, even if it is the result of popular outrage, you don't have any hand in they'll go after you. As predictable as a ploy as this is, it's at least the good thing that he will not remain in the Salvadoran prison system. In Slate, Mark Joseph Stern argued the case against Abril Garcia is highly suspect. An indictment which is notoriously easy to obtain, sheds little light on the matter. But already there are at least five reasons to be skeptical that the government is acting in good faith in telling the truth about Abrego Garcia, stern wrote. First, it is unclear why the Trump administration waited so long to bring this indictment if the facts are as damning and undeniable to claims. Second, and relatedly, the federal government took a very different view of the 2022 indictment when it occurred. There's no overt evidence that Abrego Garcia was smuggling immigrants across the country, as prosecutors now claim. Third, as Just Security's Ryan Goodman has noted, the government's account of the 2022 traffic stop has shifted. Fourth, prosecutors have now brought forth a raft of disturbing allegations about Abrego Garcia's behavior, accusing him of regularly smuggling gu transporting migrants for cash and attempting to solicit child pornography. But it has provided literally no supporting evidence for its claims about child pornography or even the scantest details about this eye popping accusation, stern said. Finally, ABC News has reported that Ben Schrader, a high ranking federal prosecutor in Tennessee, has resigned over his office's conduct in this case fearing that Abrego Garcia was targeted for political reasons. In the Atlantic, Nick Meyeroff wrote Kilmar Iberia Garcia was never coming back then he did. The Trump administration will get its opportunity to prove what it has long alleged about Obergo Garcia's membership in the gang Ms. 13. Even if prosecutors fail to convict him, the government could attempt to deport him to a third country, just not back to El Salvador, meyeroff said. But by bringing him back to the United States, the Trump administration has climbed down from the court defying pedestal where Vice President J.D. vance, the advisor Stephen Miller and Cabinet officials perched for months, claiming that Abrego Garcia's deportation was not in fact a mistake and that he will never be allowed to set foot in the country again. Their obstinacy led to warnings of a constitutional crisis. Now, by bringing Abrell Garcia back to face criminal charges, the administration could quiet the constitutional concerns about its due process rights and lay out the evidence it claims to possess, maheroff wrote. This is the second time in a week that Trump officials have relented on one of the cases in which federal judges order the government to bring back a deportee removed from the country without due process. A gay Guatemalan asylum seeker known in court documents as OCG who was wrongly deported to Mexico was allowed to return and pursue his prosecution claim on Wednesday. Alright, that's it for what the right and left are saying. Which brings us to Isaac's my take. Alright, that's it for what the left and right are saying. Which brings me to Isaac's take again. This is Ari here reading Isaac's take for today. First and foremost, I'm glad Abrego Garcia is coming back to the United States. If we became a country that condemns people to prison, especially maximum security prisons for terrorists in a foreign country, without appropriately proving that they have committed a crime, that would be bad, obviously, and unambiguously bad. I've already made the case for due process and why even unsympathetic characters or noncitizens should always be granted their rights. Abrego Garcia deserves his day in court, and now he's going to get it. The Trump administration previously erred in several ways with Abrego Garcia's deportation. It used the Alien Enemies act illegally, a verdict now rendered by five separate federal judges, most recently an El Paso judge who ruled on Monday that Trump cannot unilaterally declare an invasion. It violated the law by sending Abrego Garcia to El Salvador, where a court had previously prohibited him from being sent. The administration admitted that error, but then pretended it was powerless to correct it. Lastly, when the Supreme Court ordered them to facilitate Abrigo Garcia's return, the administration acted like it had won the case when really they had definitionally lost 9 to 0. Being in our country illegally is a good enough reason to deport someone. It's not a good enough reason to deport someone into a prison where they may remain for years, decades, or their entire life. Now that the government has brought Obriga Garcia back, they've proven what we knew the entire time. Returning him was never that hard to do. Remember, Obrigo Garcia does not have to be a good guy for you to believe any of the above. You can think he committed crimes and that a court must prove him guilty before he can be sentenced. You can think illegal immigration is bad and that illegal immigrants have rights. You can think Abrego Garcia should be deported and that he should not be sent to a maximum security prison in El Salvador without due process. Now that the administration has finally indicted Abrego Garcia, they have the opportunity to prove he is guilty of a set of crimes. And they just might. Many Democratic politicians and journalists have consistently framed him as an innocent and Maryland father. But at Tangle, we've always been careful to avoid that assumption. Here's what Isaac wrote in April. Much about Abrego Garcia's story is sympathetic. He has no criminal record. He's married to an American citizen. He is the father to a disabled and autistic child. He is a union sheet metal worker and he regularly checked in with ICE when he was supposed to. But his case is also complicated. He crossed the border illegally in 2012 and in 2019 he was accused of being a member of Ms. 13, an accusation and immigration judge used to deem him removable but hasn't been officially verified. He only claimed to be fleeing violence in El Salvador after he was arrested and faced deportation in 2019, and he was still eligible for removal, just not to El Salvador. While he regularly checked in with ice, he has reportedly skipped several court appearances for traffic violations. Reading through the Justice Department's indictment, a few things stand out. Most notably, the administration is not just accusing Abrego Garcia of being an MS.13 gang member, but of trafficking unauthorized migrants, guns and drugs around the United States, as well as smuggling minors and abusing women. The most damning and only direct evidence that the administration seems to have comes from a 2022 traffic stop in Tennessee. Body camera footage of the stop has been released to the public and it only takes 90 seconds to watch, so you should go check it out. The government alleges that the video shows Abrego Garcia transporting a van full of unauthorized migrants from Texas to Maryland, then lying to officers that he was returning from a work site in St. Louis. The indictment claims that a license plate reader technology showed the Chevrolet Suburban he was driving had been in Houston a week earlier and not in St. Louis in the prior 12 months. The traffic stop was first reported months ago, which adds legitimacy to the Justice Department's case by proving the government did indeed have some real evidence to use against Abrego Garcia. However, it also raises a slew of questions like why didn't the government charge him at the time? Or why didn't the Trump administration use this information earlier? One high ranking federal prosecutor in Tennessee has already resigned and an anonymous source in his office claims his resignation came in response to Abrego Garcia being targeted for political reasons. Also, the government has presented no evidence to support its more bombastic claims, like that he was soliciting child porn. Taken together, the circumstantial evidence makes me skeptical of the government's case and concerned and might be concocting its claims as a premise to comply with the courts. Even if my doubts prove to be well founded, Abrego Garcia's indictment is still a good thing. As Ilya Soman wrote in Reason, even a possibly questionable prosecution in a court with proper due process is far better than deportation to imprisonment with no due process at all. Abrego Garcia's guilt or innocence was never what mattered most about his case to me. Instead, what matters is that we respect the individual rights of citizens, that this administration obeys court orders, and that our country doesn't perform immoral acts. Because if the government can do whatever it wants with non citizens, nothing is stopping it from accusing anyone of a crime, claiming the accused is not a citizen, saying noncitizens don't get due process, then locking them in a maximum security prison with no end date or oversight. All of what's happening now Abrego Garcia returning to the US and facing legitimate charges is a resolution to these worries, even in some small way. I'm happy to see him get his day in court, whether or not he's guilty.
- [23:48]
Michelle Bernstein
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [23:54]
Trey Farrow
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- [24:56]
Maya
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- [25:31]
Ari Weitzman
Foreign that's it for Isaac's my take as read by me. And now that brings us to your questions answered as answered by me again. Ari managing editor here, filling in for Isaac and taking today's question. So this one comes from Laurie from Durham, N.C. who asks, can you shed some light on your opinion of climate science? Having population growth is the worst thing we can do for climate, unless you don't believe what the science is telling us. I think Laurie's referencing some opinions we've written before about population growth. So that's going to be a little bit of context to this answer. And here's the answer. If you ask different members of our team for their opinions on the ethics of having kids in light of climate change, you're likely to get different opinions. However, as the person on staff who wrote a piece about the ethics of having kids in light of climate change, you can go check out on retangle.com, i'll give you my answer. I don't think that having population growth is the worst thing we can do for climate, and I can explain so first off, Tangle as a whole is an organization that accepts that climate change is occurring. Not only that, but we accept the scientific consensus that human behavior is causing rapid climate change through the extensive release of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. This belief is supported by the many climate models that work from the theory of anthropogenic or human caused climate change and continue to prove their own projections to be correct. Second, climate scientists do say that the largest driver of climate change is having a child in a developed country, with one study putting the effect about eight times greater than the combined effects from living without a car, taking fewer flights and eating a plant based diet. I take issue with some aspects of that finding, but it is logical and somewhat straightforward to say that the biggest driver of human caused climate change is the creation of more humans. So why do I disagree with your statement? Mostly because, as I get into in that ethics piece I talked about earlier, no human action can really be bad for the climate. We care about the environment only insofar as it can support people. The climate does not care if we make it inhospitable. To us, the climate is neither good nor bad, it just is. And that may sound like a pointless abstraction, and it also papers over some other ethical questions about the survivability of the climate forever other species. But this distinction I think is actually important because if you follow a path of argument that says making humans is bad for humanity, you get to dangerous and irrational conclusions pretty quickly. As in why stop at preventing more people? See where I'm going with that? So we have to accept that we'll continue to have people. Otherwise caring about climate change is kind of pointless. But yes, there are limits to what environmentally sustainable population growth looks like. But supporting population growth right now in the US Comes at a time when the fertility rate is far below replacement levels. That means there's plenty of room for fertility rates to go up and for population to grow before we're getting to what I would say are dangerous levels. So personally, I find supporting population growth relative to that baseline and caring about climate change at the same time to be relatively easy to do, right? Hopefully that makes sense, but I'm sure this won't be the last we talk about climate change. Here's today's under the Radar story. The White House is reportedly having difficulty finding candidates for key roles at the Pentagon in the wake of several high profile exits from Defense Secretary Pete Hagseth's staff. Vice President J.D. vance and White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles have attempted to help Hegseth choose a new chief of staff after the first one was fired in April, but they're reportedly struggling to find candidates interested in the position who align with the administration's agenda. The White House has rejected some of Hagseth's choices for the role and vice versa. At least three people have already turned down the potential roles under the Defense secretary. NBC News has the story and you can find a link to it in our show Notes. That brings us to our numbers section. The number of days Kilmar Abrella Garcia was held in Salvadoran custody is 83. The number of days between the Supreme Court's ruling ordering the Trump administration to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return and his return is 57. The percentage of US adults who said the Trump administration should and should not comply, respectively, with the Supreme Court's order to facilitate the release of Abrego Garcia, according to an April 2025 YouGov poll, are 53% and 21%. The percentage of U.S. adults who said the Trump administration should and should not comply with the Supreme Court's order to facilitate the release of Abrega Garcia are 53% and 21%, respectively, according to an April 2025 YouGov poll. The percentage of U.S. adults who thought the Trump administration would and would not comply with the Supreme Court's order are 11 and 49%, respectively. The maximum number of years in prison Abrega Garcia could face for each unauthorized migrant he allegedly transported if convicted is 10. The approximate number of trips the government's indictment alleges Abrego Garcia undertook to transport unauthorized migrants from Texas is 100. Here's today's have a nice day story. Police officers in Westlake, Ohio, had an unusual rescue mission save a baby deer trapped in a backyard soccer net. A video captured by one officer's body camera shows the panicked fawn struggling to move while a female deer lingers anxiously nearby. The officer pulls the net off piece by piece, carefully cutting it away before the freed fawn runs off, followed closely by what we assume is her relieved mom. All right everybody, that's it for today's podcast. As always, if you'd like to support our work, you can head over to retango com.com and sign up for a membership. You can also head over to tangle media.super caps.com to sign up for Premium Podcast membership, which gets you ad free daily podcasts Friday editions, our Sunday Now Friday podcast interviews, bonus content and more. This has been Ari Weitzman for Isaac Saul and John Law signing off and we'll talk to you again soon.
- [31:55]
Michelle Bernstein
Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul and our Executive Producer is John Lowell. Today's editor episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Saul, Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com.
- [32:26]
Ari Weitzman
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Michelle Bernstein
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Howie Mandel
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Michelle Bernstein
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Ari Weitzman
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Michelle Bernstein
TikTok Smart Plus AI powered automation takes the guesswork out of targeting, bidding and optimization. Optimizing creative if I can advertise on.
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Howie Mandel
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Ari Weitzman
Drive more leads and scale your business today only on TikTok. Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTok ads.
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Meltzer Hell Rung
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