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- [00:00]
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Jack Revecci Kramer
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MIDI Menopause Ad Announcer
From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
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All right,
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Isaac Saul
good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast. A place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host Isaac Saul and it is a jam packed Monday morning. I gotta just start with a quick story. A few months ago I read this piece. I can't even remember where it was. I think maybe in the Atlantic about younger Americans rediscovering malls as a hangout spot and I honestly was skeptical. But on Sunday afternoon yesterday I spent four or five hours at the local mall with my wife and I have to say the experience obliterated my skepticism. It was the first time I'd been in a mall personally in years and it felt like I had just been transported 20 years into the past. High schoolers running around in gaggles, the elderly shopping with grandchildren, families out for the day, 20 somethings on dates. It was oddly happening and retro and even weirder brought me some joy just experiencing it all. So today we're diving into another pastime, which is some election chicanery in New Jersey, but the modern kind with alleged software errors and public blame games instead of mafiosos and smoke filled rooms. Also, a reader wrote in with a question about cyclosporiasis and a feel good wedding story to round it all out. It's a very good episode and I'm joined today by John Lal, who I'm going to pass it over to now. I'll be back for my take.
- [03:54]
John Lal
Thanks Isaac and welcome everybody. Hope you all had a wonderful weekend. We're going to jump right into it with today's quick hits. First up, the US And Iran paused strikes over the weekend following roughly two weeks of attacks by each side. President Donald Trump has reportedly opted against escalating the US Campaign amid discussions of renewed peace talks and concerns over missile interceptor stockpiles, which the president has denied are a concern. Two Three people were killed and four wounded in a mass shooting at the Seattle center in Seattle, Washington. One suspect has been arrested and police are searching for a second. Number three. A federal appeals court rejected the Trump administration's request to overturn a lower court decision and allowed the administration to implement stricter mail in voting rules ahead of the 2026 midterm elections. Number four Maine Democratic Party delegates selected former state Senate President Troy Jackson to replace Graham Platner as the party's nominee in the Senate race against Senator Susan Collins. At number five. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said that four additional states are experiencing a cyclospiriasis outbreak linked to shredded iceberg lettuce, bringing the total number of states in the outbreak to nine.
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MIDI Menopause Ad Announcer
Now to the Department of Justice, announcing that it's investigating after New Jersey's governor disclosed that more than 6,000 people who said they were not U.S. citizens were mistakenly registered to vote. Cheryl says that because of a computer error, about 6,600 non citizens who are registering for a driver's license were also improperly registered to vote.
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Karina Pacheco
She says a 2023 software glitch at
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MIDI Menopause Ad Announcer
the state's Motor Vehicle Commission led people who are not citizens and were not eligible to vote to be registered anyway.
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John Lal
On Tuesday, July 21, New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill announced that an error in the state's motor vehicle system softW, resulted in approximately 6,600 non citizens being registered to vote, and a preliminary assessment showed roughly 400 of them cast a ballot in at least one election. Sherrill said the improper registrations occurred during former governor Phil Murphy's term and ordered an investigation into the error. New Jersey's Motor Vehicle Commission allows people applying for driver's licenses or identification cards to simultaneously register to vote if they certify that that they are U.S. citizens and eligible to cast ballots. Governor Sherrill said that between June 2023 and June 2024, an error in the state's registration software mistakenly registered people who indicated they were not citizens. She added that the issue was eventually caught and corrected by the Murphy administration, but criticized the former governor for a lack of transparency. In failing to disclose the discovery, idemia, the contractor that operates the state system, refuted Sherrill's claim that a software glitch caused the issue. Lisa Schumacher, a company spokesperson, said the company does not register voters on behalf of the state. Instead, it accurately collected and stored applicants responses to a series of questions about their interest in registering to vote, citizenship status and, if eligible, party affiliation. According to Schumacher, the state was responsible for how it used the information in the MVC's database. In response to Sheryl's announcement, the White House reaffirmed its call for Congress to pass the Save America act, which would require states to use a federal system to confirm a prospective voters eligibility before they can register to vote in federal elections. Separately, Representative Jeff Van Drew, the Republican from New Jersey, and a group of Republican lawmakers sent a letter to Governor Sherrill asking for a complete accounting of how this failure occurred. Sherrill and other Democrats have rejected claims that the incident validates broader concerns over election security and fraud. Donald Trump has zero credibility on the issue of election integrity. For the past 10 years, he's cried wolf and peddled bizarre conspiracy theories about fraud with no evidence. Sherril Today we'll share views from the right, left and New Jersey writers on the incident and then Isaac's take.
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Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break. For years my wife has told me that I'm a tosser and turner I talk in my sleep. I'm up all night, I'm rolling around, I never seem to get quite comfortable and and I've been looking for a mattress to fix that. I just bought the Sapira Chill Hybrid mattress from Lisa. It's the first time I've ever really invested in a mattress. And I did it because they have this awesome system where you take a quiz, you tell them what you're trying to solve about your sleep, you basically share a few details about what you want out of a mattress, and then they recommend the perfect mattress for you. And I can't wait for this mattress to show up because I know it's time for things to go to leesa.com for 25% off select mattresses plus get
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Isaac Saul
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Isaac Saul
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- [09:18]
Isaac Saul
that you're supporting our show.
- [09:19]
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That's Lisa.com promo code Tangle. Hey everyone, quick thought before we get started. If you listen to Tangle, it's probably because you're trying to escape the media echo chamber. But even when you read broadly, it's hard to see which stories are being emphasized and which ones are being ignored. This episode is brought to you by Ground News. Ground News is not a publisher. It's an app and website that gathers reporting on every news story from across the political spectrum and shows you each outlet's bias rating, factuality rating, and who owns it. It's more than just an aggregator. It gives you context on every perspective in one place so that you can make up your own mind. For example, a recent story about a bipartisan border deal collapsing was covered by 50 plus outlets. One left leaning headline read GOP sinks border deal under Trump Pressure, while a right leaning one said democrats Block Stronger Border enforcement. Same event, very different framing. Ground News lets you compare that instantly and even flags blind spots so stories disproportionately covered by one side. If you want unlimited access to these features, subscribe to the vantage plan for 40% off@groundnews.com tn that's groundnews.com tn promo code tn again, groundnews.com tn code tn for 40% off if you care about seeing the full picture, I think you'll really value this tool.
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John Lal
All right, first up, let's start with what the right is saying. Many on the right say the incident validates concerns about election system vulnerabilities. Some argue the Save America act would not have prevented this error. In the Washington Examiner, Zachary Ferrier said New Jersey admits that the voter fraud that doesn't happen was happening. Democrats in liberal media have said that evidence of voter fraud, specifically fraud committed by noncitizens, is essentially non existent. Now New Jersey's Democratic governor has effectively killed that talking point, ferrier wrote. We have gone from the New York Times saying just two weeks ago that widespread noncitizen voting is a problem that doesn't exist. To the Democratic governor of a state admitting that around 400 non citizens illegally voted after that state gave over 6,000 of them the ability to do so. The Democratic Party, willfully or not, is only making this problem worse. Aside from giving non citizens, including illegal immigrants, driver's licenses while running an automatic voter registration program through the dmv, many Democrat run cities want to or do allow noncitizens to vote in local elections. Democratic politicians also rapidly oppose any efforts to require voter identification, ferris said. When you combine that with the fact that Democrats are making it easier for noncitizens and illegal immigrants to vote both unintentionally and intentionally and oppose any safeguards under the guise of voter suppression, you have a blooming voter fraud issue. In Cato at Liberty, Stephen Richer explored whether the Save America act would have prevented the New Jersey noncitizen voters snafu. Arizona was the first state to require documented proof of citizenship. The overwhelming majority of Arizona voters satisfied this requirement by showing a passport or birth certificate to the state's motor vehicle division when getting a driver's license, richard wrote. If New Jersey had the same system as Arizona, the 6,600 non citizens in question still would have indicated that they are not citizens. Accordingly, they would not have provided documented proof of citizenship. Nothing would have changed. The software error would have still indicated that they met the citizenship requirement. The registrar still would have relied on this inaccurate information. It's possible that the final version of the Save America act could have been structured differently. It could require that even if the individual provides documented proof of citizenship to a motor vehicle division, he or she must also provide a birth certificate to the registrar for a new voter registration and every subsequent registration modification, richer said. This would have made the New Jersey error less likely, but it would impose new burdens on hundreds of millions of voting Americans. Alright, that is it for what the right is saying. Which brings us to what the left is saying. Some on the left say the incident is proof that non citizen voting is rare and detectable. Others say that Democrats should adjust their approach to voter fraud concerns in USA TODAY Chris Brennan said New Jersey's noncitizen voter disclosure shows the system works the loudest view about election integrity and voter fraud, shouted at every opportunity by President Donald Trump but not supported by evidence is that voter fraud is rampant in our country, especially among noncitizens allegedly casting ballots, brennan wrote. The more nuanced view with a foundation in actual evidence is that voter fraud and noncitizen voting are rare occur that our election infrastructure is designed to catch and eliminate and to prosecute as necessary. The news out of New Jersey proves that second point of view. Trump has been banging away Republicans in Congress to pass his so called Save America act, which he casts as crucial for election integrity, but which is really just an unconstitutional power grab bred. Any American who interacts with the government in any way knows mistakes happen that applies to elections and how they're running. Trump and his Republican allies in Congress would have you believe that those mistakes are intentional, but these kinds of problems crop up in red states too. In New York Magazine, Ed Kilgore suggested New Jersey shows Democrats need a better voter fraud strategy. To be clear, the 6,600 non citizen voter registrations is well below the 35,152 DHS claimed for new Jersey in the recent report Trump cited, based on a database created for an entirely different purpose that is reported to be full of errors. But it's like a camel's nose under the tent, validating all sorts of mega suspicions that the real fraud is vast and underreported, kilgore wrote. Sheryl has not yet offered a proactive proposal to prevent the sort of errors she detected and reversed. Sheryl and every other state level Democrat should clarify their own views about election integrity and possible noncitizen voting. At the federal level, Democrats should also modify their long standing national voting rights proposals to include a modest and reasonable system for verifying voter eligibility at the polls and for obtaining and casting mail ballots. It may need to be no more extensive than the signature verification system California and other universal voting by mail states already use, kilgore said. With their approach either state by state or nationally to voter eligibility verification, Democrats would be in a far stronger position on the topic and more in line with the large majority of Americans who support some form of voter id. Alright, that is it for what the right and left are saying. Which brings us to what New Jersey writers are saying. Some New Jersey writers say the error was a predictable result of flawed policy. Others criticized former Governor Murphy for failing to shore up the issue during his term In Save New Jersey, Matt Rooney called the error fraud by design. For years, New Jersey's political class dismissed election integrity concerns as paranoid fantasy. They insisted every safeguard was in place. This week, reality finally caught up, rooney wrote. Software may have failed. The company is pushing back for what it's worth, but software merely executed the system politicians deliberately built. It was the predictable consequence of a policy architecture that prioritized making registration effortless over ensuring only eligible citizens were added to the roles. The foundation was laid in 2018 when Democrats enacted automatic voter registration through the Motor Vehicle Commission. Registration became the default. One year later, in 2019, they expanded driver's licenses to illegal aliens. Anyone paying attention could see the obvious. What happens when those systems collide, Rooney said, when government intentionally dismantles safeguards, expands eligibility for driver's licenses to people who cannot legally vote, automates voter registration, weakens accountability, and then expresses surprise when eligible people wind up on the voter rolls? The real failure isn't the software. In the New Jersey monitor, Terrance T. McDonald said Phil Murphy gives New Jersey Democrats one more kick in the teeth Former governor Murphy, who ended his two terms as governor in New Jersey, spent his final years in office stripping Democratic Party leaders of their chief ballot advantage, cozying up to Donald Trump as Trump sought reelection to and attempting to install his wife as a U.S. senator, McDonald wrote. Now Governor Mikey Sherrill alleges that Murphy's administration dropped the ball as the State Motor Vehicle Commission accidentally registered about 6,000 non citizens to vote. If the claims she made on Tuesday are true, Murphy not only left Sherrill with a massive mess to clean up and New Jersey with a black eye, but also made it harder for New Jersey Democrats and potentially Democrats nationwide to argue that Trump's allegations of widespread voter fraud are wrong. McDonald's Donald said Trump's push to convince Americans that noncitizens are flipping election results, which is really just a personal crusade to convince America he did not lose reelection in 2020, has been strengthened thanks to incompetence in our state government. Alright, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
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Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take compared to how straightforward this story seems on the surface. 6,600 non citizens were erroneously registered to vote in New Jersey. It's actually pretty complicated. To recap, New Jersey allows people renewing their driver's licenses or government issued ID cards to simultaneously register to vote if they certify that they are U.S. citizens. The state contracts part of that process to Edemia, a French company that sells software to help departments of motor vehicles in the United States with everything from testing to voter registration. New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill said the software erroneously registered 6,600 non citizens to vote despite marking themselves as ineligible, allowing roughly 400 to actually cast ballots. In her announcement last week, Sheryl said these 6,600 non citizens committed no fault, but had simply been registered to vote because of a software error. This turned the public gaze and criticism toward Edema. Edema's side of the story is meaningfully different. It said that all 6,600 of the individuals in question said yes to an initial question about wanting to register to vote, but no to a subsequent one about being a US Citizen. This is where the details are unclear and disputed. Edemia says that the Motor Vehicles Commission erroneously included these respondents when it sent its registration to the state Division of Elections. In other words, it recorded the responses accurately and the state was at fault. The MVC didn't have to send ineligible voter data to the state, and New Jersey's election office could have filtered those responses out. In June of 2024, MVC requested the software to automatically mark anyone who indicated they were a non citizen as declining to register to vote, which solved the issue going forward. But the 6,600 erroneously added people from the year before were never removed or disclosed. When that side of the story broke on Friday, the narrative changed to something like the state of New Jersey incompetently used a system that resulted in 6,600 non citizens being registered to vote, and the state was so incompetent or corrupt that this was not fixed immediately or disclosed publicly for more than two years. If you want to be really cynical, you could also argue that the non citizens, by virtue of selecting yes, were also expressing some intent to break the law. I would not argue that, but the Trump administration is already pursuing prosecution. Candidly, it's impossible to know whether without contemporaneous records and probably a court case, who was really at fault here. If you're asking me, Ademia's story strikes me as far more plausible. MVC had the right data, the registration issue was fixed once they requested Edema change its settings, and the state is trying to pin blame on some vague software error. Given that Edema can point to a specific moment in time when the problem was fixed, it really seems like the software was doing what it was told to. Initially, it was just being told the wrong thing. In an even worse look for the state, the elections office then failed to recognize that IT had registered 6,600 non citizens on its voting roll. Yet even if this is the case, I wouldn't count Edema as blameless here, presuming their version of events is accurate. How is it possible they didn't give clear enough instructions for something this important? With a client this big, is there no auditing or oversight? Are we really just leaving government workers a few clicks or one malformed query away from meaningfully corrupting our election systems? None of that feels particularly exonerating for the private contractor in this case. Governor Sherrill, for her part, continued lambasting Ademia publicly on Friday, saying the state had already begun the process to end its relationship with the vendor because this company was at the heart of the issues with New Jersey's mvc. Long wait times, bureaucracy, red tape. Maybe Sheryl is overreaching there, but ending the relationship is probably for the best. And it's a tough break for Sheryl, who had nothing to do with any of this. Thank you, Governor Phil Murphy, yet is now left to clean it all up. Meanwhile, the Trump administration signaled it's going to prosecute the noncitizen voters, which doesn't feel like a just solution to me. In most cases, I'd support any noncitizen voting illegally facing criminal charges, but this situation seems unique. A noncitizen lying about their citizenship to register to vote is illegal, but a noncitizen indicating on a forum that they want to participate in elections while also making it clear that they are not a citizen and and then being told they can vote does not strike me as the sort of thing that is worth a prosecutor's time. If I walk into a bar and the bartender asks me if I want a drink and I say yes, but I'm only 20 years old and then the bartender says that's okay, you can drink here, then hands me a beer and I take a sip, who do we think is the person worthy of prosecution? The story is also a reminder of the reality of voter fraud. Noncitizen voting is vanishingly rare. A quick look around the country shows that most states have mere hundreds, if not single digit numbers of noncitizens who cast ballots among millions of registered voters. Even here, in an incident where 6,600 non citizens were erroneously added to the voter rolls, 94% didn't actually cast the ballot. Of the 6% who did, a majority possibly didn't even know they were violating the law, given how the state corresponded with them. To draw on my previous analogy, if I told you that 94% of 20 year olds offered a beer inside a bar, then turned the beer down. You'd probably be more worried about the socialization of 20 year olds than you were about their capacity to commit a crime. And not for nothing, but this story seems directly related to the Trump administration effectively killing the Election Assistance Commission, or eac. Edema, after all, says its systems function perfectly well and as proof noted that the state of New Jersey tested and approved the systems before they were implemented. The EAC was a federal agency that helped states standardize this kind of election related software, and this is just the kind of thing that supporters of the EAC worry we'll see more of with it taken off the table. All things said and done, I'm glad this mistake is finally coming to light and that both the federal government and state governments are giving it some attention. What's critical to me is that this all reinforces the single most important element of election security a paper trail. In this case, we got lucky. The mistake was caught using the digital tools at hand. But what if the software system itself had been compromised? What if the error was smaller and less noticeable, or larger and more difficult to unwind? As with vote tabulators, having a paper record is our best last defense for audits and record keeping. And as we become more and more reliant on software tools and computerized systems, we need to stay diligent about preserving the primary documents those tools are processing. All right, that is it for my take. We have a staff dissent today from our associate editor, Karina Pacheco, so I'm going to pass it over to her, and I'll be back for your questions answered.
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Karina Pacheco
New Jersey's voter registration scandal is messy, chiefly because each side is trying hard to twist it to fit their own narratives. But however you slice it, the state's voter registration system resulted in hundreds of illegally cast ballots, which is a serious failure. It's virtually impossible to accurately judge the intention or culpability of each non citizen who actually cast a ballot. But in most cases I ascribe as much agency to an individual as possible, even if I'm sympathetic to their situation. If you live in a foreign country and receive notice that you are registered to vote, you have several ways to understand whether you can legally vote in state or federal elections. Google is probably the easiest. Separately, if the state mistakenly registered you to vote via a software glitch or other mishap, and you disclose that you are a non citizen, then you are not to blame. But I also believe if you actually cast a ballot just because you were registered to vote, you're breaking the law even if you didn't know it. Saying these people couldn't know better assumes a very low bar of critical reasoning and denies these noncitizens of any agency. And what precedent does it set if we let voter fraud at any scale go unpunished, especially if we definitely know it happened? I can't get behind the idea that New Jersey should just let this one slide. If we want to send a serious message about election security, all parties, the software company, the Motor Vehicle Commission, and the individuals who cast votes should be held to account.
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Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [27:37]
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- [28:06]
Hannah Burner
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- [29:10]
Isaac Saul
All right, thanks Karina. That is it for our my take and dissent today. Which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Catherine in Clinton, New York. Catherine said in the past the sources, both pathogens and foods carrying them of deadly and sickening foodborne illnesses have been
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reasonably quickly identified, the foods recalled and
- [29:31]
Isaac Saul
the people are instructed about what to avoid or how to clean, etc. The possible sources when safe, but none of those normal procedures seem to apply to the recent outbreak of cyclosporiasis. Why? I understand that it's a parasite and not bacteria, but why do we have so little information about the sources of it, what to avoid eating or handling, et cetera? All right. While Managing Editor Ari Weitzman was out on paternity leave, we had this rotation of guests that came onto our weekly talk show, Suspension of the Rules to fill out the roster and offer their opinions on pertinent topics. Two weeks ago, the author of the newsletter, Your local epidemiologist, Dr. Caitlin Jettalina, joined the show to talk about cyclospiriasis and has discussed it in depth in her newsletter. First, what it is Cyclospora is a microscopic parasite that spreads through food or water contaminated with human feces. An infection of Cyclospora is called Cyclosporiasis. It can cause explosive diarrhea for weeks, and its symptoms tend to set in more gradually than what you might experience with other illnesses or food poisoning. The Centers for Disease Control may have struggled to detect the outbreak for a few reasons. First, tracing the source is slow work since the parasite is not part of the standard parasite panels. Detecting it requires an infected person to report their condition, public health experts to find and interview that person, and then for the infected person to recount all the food they've eaten in the past 10 days. Second, reported cyclospirasis cases have been trending up for years, making it harder to detect spikes that indicate an imminent outbreak. Third, the infection is not centralized and is actually clustered around four separate outbreaks, with the largest spike in Michigan linked to iceberg lettuce from a supplier in Mexico distributed to Taco Bell restaurants. Lastly, federal funding Many outlets have reported on funding cuts to FoodNet, a federal program managed jointly by the CDC, the Food and Drug Administration, and the Department of Agriculture to analyze trends in foodborne illnesses linking those cuts to this current outbreak. The government's food surveillance program may not be perfect, but those cuts probably did not contribute to the CDC's delayed communications because FoodNet was not designed to prevent and respond to outbreaks. As Jetalina said In her newsletter, FoodNet was never designed for real time outbreak detection or response. The more accurate culprits are the lack of centralized coordination by the federal government, our siloed health systems, and insufficient capacity at state and local health departments. All right, that is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace.
- [32:11]
John Lal
Thanks Isaac. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Many little girls dream about what their wedding day will look like. So for their daughter Jordan Rosenberg's wedding to her now husband Max Creamer in May, Rosenberg's parents unearthed an old video of their four year old daughter daughter talking about her future wedding. She told them the celebration would have a range of attractions you may expect a four year old to list off clowns, face paint, dancing and a moon bounce among them. When asked who her groom would be, Jordan exclaimed Max the kicker. Rosenberg and Creamer did not meet until college. The audio was put together as a surprise and played during the Father Daughter dance, much to the guest's delight and Creamer's surprise. He couldn't believe it, rosenberg said of her husband's reaction to her serendipitous sentimental prediction. People has this story and you can check it out with the link in today's Episode Description alright everybody, that's it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day y'.
- [33:19]
Hannah Burner
All.
- [33:22]
John Lal
Peace.
- [33:24]
Isaac Saul
Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our Executive producer is John Wall. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kbach and Associate Editors Audrey Moorhead and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tango and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
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Jack Revecci Kramer
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