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- [00:00]
Contentful Marketer
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- [00:29]
Monday.com User
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- [00:59]
Charles Schwab Announcer
decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day, but what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen@schwab.com WashingtonWise
- [01:28]
Isaac Saul
from executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
- [01:43]
Ari Weitzman
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, the place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of our take. And this. This is Tangle Managing Editor Ari Weitzman and I'm back from paternity leave. I hope you missed me when I was gone because you're about to hear a lot more from me in the coming weeks. We've got Canadian wildfires, tropical storms over the Gulf, and tech issues all lining up for additions in Tangle in the coming weeks. So that's a lot of stuff in my wheelhouse today. Specifically, we're covering New York's data center Moratorium. This is something that I and our event Associate Editor Lindsay Knuth wrote about in a debate style format back in April when I took the argument in favor of building more data centers. So let's see if my takes changed any after reading about this new issue or after 25 days of having a newborn. Maybe we'll find out. Before we get to my take though, I'm going to send it over to John to get us started with Quick hits and today's topic and then I'll be back for my take.
- [02:54]
John Wall
Thanks Ari and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, Senator Darlene Graham, the Republican from South Carolina who was appointed to serve out the remainder of her late brother Senator Lindsey Graham's term, said she will run for the Republican nomination for the seat in the state's special primary election in August. Number two, the Pentagon disclosed that close to 100 service members have been injured in the Iran war in the past two weeks, adding that 96% of those injured have since returned to duty. Separately, the Houthis, an Iran backed militia group in Yemen, declared a maritime blockade on Saudi Arabia. In response to a continued Saudi siege on Yemen. President Donald Trump imposed a 50% tariff on select Canadian imports under Section 338 of the Tariff act of 1930. The White House said the duties were retaliation for discriminatory trade measures by Canada. Four authorities arrested a man they said started a fire and set off fireworks outside a federal building in New York City, injuring three people. The suspect, an army veteran, was described as an anti ice activist at number five, Andy Burnham officially became Britain's new prime minister, replacing Keir Starmer. President Trump said that he and Burnham had a very good call and planned to meet in the not too distant future.
- [04:22]
Isaac Saul
New York is now the first state ever to put a moratorium on building massive data centers. It's not permanent, but critics say it could make the state less competitive.
- [04:30]
Big Tech Representative
Big Tech calls this moratorium a job killer, but Hochul's order is actually less restrictive than a bill passed by lawmakers and sitting unsigned on the governor's desk today. Hochul said she's protecting New Yorkers and the New York power grid.
- [04:46]
John Wall
On Tuesday, July 14, New York Governor Kathy Hochul signed an executive order pausing construction of new large scale data centers in the state for up to one year. Hochul said the moratorium is intended to allow policymakers to study the economic and environmental effects of new data centers and consider regulatory action. The governor's order went into effect immediately, making New York the first state to halt data center construction. For context, data centers are servers, storage systems and networking equipment that process and store digital information. Demand for new hubs has increased alongside advancements in artificial intelligence and technology. Companies have begun building new data centers centers to support the compute power needed to reliably provide AI services. However, new construction of the facilities has provoked public backlash and raised concerns about energy and water use and environmental harms. Governor Hochul's order defines large scale or hyperscale data centers as those consuming 50 megawatts or more of energy and providing data storage, cloud computing and or content delivery to customers, internal operations and or affiliated business operations. It exempts facilities that are primarily used to support manufacturing, research, education and medical care. During the moratorium, the state will complete an environmental review studying data centers impacts on electricity demand, the power grid, water consumption, water quality and air quality. It will also create a community investment framework to help municipalities negotiate with prospective data center developers. In a press release, Hochul said uncertainty about data centers resource use and cost to taxpayers for required a temporary pause to allow for a proper assessment of their impact. New York State is experiencing unprecedented growth in demand for data center development driven by artificial intelligence and other computing operations that could require massive amounts of energy and water to run and cool thousands of computer servers, the release said. However, Hochul also affirmed her support for AI in the long run, saying the businesses that build technology capable of changing civilization with AI are also capable of working with us to protect our power grid, to protect our water supplies and our communities. Many environmental groups praise the order. This one year moratorium is a huge step forward for New York communities fighting against an onslaught of massive data center proposals, laura Shindle, Food and Water Watch's New York State director, said. However, some New York lawmakers oppose data center construction moratoriums, saying that they will put the state at an economic disadvantage. A statewide moratorium is the wrong answer to the right questions. It freezes investment and takes decisions away from the communities that should be making them. The responsible path is to set clear, firm standards and let willing communities decide for themselves, republican Assemblymember Scott Gray wrote in June. Today we'll take a look at arguments from the left and the right about the executive order, and then Managing Editor Ari Weitzman will give his take
- [07:40]
Contentful Marketer
foreign.
- [07:47]
Podcast Host (Ad Read)
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [07:51]
Ground News Advertiser
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- [09:07]
Podcast Host (Ad Read)
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- [10:20]
John Wall
All right, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. Many on the left support New York's moratorium, calling it a model for other states. Some contend that the pause could help the AI industry in the long run. Others say Democrats will benefit from Trump's support of data centers. In USA Today, Sarah Pequeno wrote, new York just showed the country how to stop data centers. The moratorium was the right move and a politically savvy one said hating data centers might be the only thing that Democrats and Republicans can agree on right now, and politicians would be smart to take advantage of this rare moment of bipartisanship. Politicians need to get it together, get on the same page and follow New York's lead in implementing a moratorium and eventually stronger regulation on data centers. While I see the benefits that data centers can bring, lawmakers are beholden to the people they serve not lobbyists or businesses, pequinya wrote. This is an opportunity for politicians at all levels to listen to their constituents and remember who they work for, not the corporations funding their campaigns, but the people. New York's moratorium is a great first step. Next comes the regulation that's needed to ensure data centers do not further harm the environment and affect quality of life in these communities. I hope to see other states follow suit. In Bloomberg, Joe Wiesenthal gave an optimistic case for the moratorium. Hochul insists that the moratorium is not a Trojan horse for a long term ban or a de facto ban by doing one year pause after one year pause. Instead, she wants to take a year so that communities can figure out the best arrangements with data center companies so that the entrance of the new facility brings economic benefits to the area, wasenthal wrote. If you're generally liberal on questions of economic development, I think what you should hope to see is that we get a series of developments where for fiscal reasons communities see a tangible benefit. Without that, we're likely to see a ratchet of more and more restrictions on data center development all around the country in red and blue states, wiesenthal said. It's pretty understandable to be skeptical about the motives of any elected official. And I suppose we'll only know if this pause achieved anything productive in a year. Maybe the politics will just end up much worse, but there is a version where the growth of the industry continues in a manner that creates less public hostility. In Ms. Now, Paul Waldman said Trump's data center boosterism is a gift to Democrats. When New York governor Kathy Hochul signed the executive order, President Donald Trump was not happy, waldman wrote. New York should change its policy immediately, he posted to Truth Social. The radical left Democrats must not be allowed to cause us to lose data centers and AI and all this incredible new technology to China and other countries. The New York moratorium is the first such statewide ban in the country, though it may not be the last. The frenzy of data center construction is rapidly becoming one of the most important issues on the political landscape. And unlike most issues, it doesn't fall cleanly across partisan lines. At least not yet. Given how unpopular data centers are and how they have become a stand in for people's feelings about a rapacious tech industry, greedy billionaires and the threats posed by artificial intelligence technologies, nothing could be better for Democrats than to have voters associate data centers with Republicans, waldman said. Trump seems to have decided to become the face of an issue on which he's on the wrong side of two thirds of the public. That makes the data center issue an enormous gift to Democrats. It doesn't take a political genius to see they ought to exploit it for everything it's worth. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. The right criticizes the moratorium, with some predicting it will set back US AI development. Many compare the ban to past moratoriums that stunted economic growth. Others say anti progress activists are showing their influence. The New York Post editorial board called the ban a loss for New York and a win for China. Hochul may tell herself and pro business allies that her executive order banning data centers is merely a pause to appease the Greens until she wins reelection. But the pressure to extend it will only grow stronger, and she won't need the business community after November, the board wrote. Worse, she's kneeling not just to fear mongering by the likes of Representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and Senator Bernie Sanders, who see every innovation as a threat, but by Chinese propagandists who want to strangle American AI development in the cradle. To justify her moratorium, Hochul trotted out Beijing's talking points that data centers will hike up utility bills, deplete our natural resources and create uncertainty. The board said data centers are crucial to AI. Without them, New York has no hope of leading in the next major US Growth sector and little hope of retaining its remaining leadership in older sectors that will increasingly rely on AI, including finance. New York desperately needs a forward thinking chief executive who will stand up to the superstition and enemy propaganda, one who will ensure we embrace innovation and economic growth. Instead, we're stuck with Kathy Hochul. In the Daily Caller, David Blackman said the moratorium feels all too familiar. The parallel to Governor Andrew Cuomo's 2014 fracking decision is striking, and the likely outcomes for New Yorkers are equally concerning. Though presented as temporary amid ongoing study, the policy effectively ended high volume hydraulic fracturing in the state, Blackmus Blackman wrote. By freezing data center permitting for a year or longer if the legislative bill advances, New York signals uncertainty to developers with project plans under development or ready to go. Projects that might have brought big benefits to upstate or other regions could simply locate elsewhere. In fairness to governor Hochul, there is no question that legitimate concerns exist, blackmun said. But a one year or indefinite moratorium is a blunt instrument. The fracking experience shows that once development is paused on precautionary grounds, political momentum often locks the restriction in place place even as neighboring jurisdictions capture the benefits New Yorkers should not have to choose between affordable energy and economic opportunity. A far more productive solution would be for Hochul and other state officials to suck it up and do the hard work of ensuring efficient development instead of hiding behind a moratorium. For the American Enterprise Institute, James Petocas argued that the policy reveals the continuing power of America's stagnationist activist groups. We are unable, as we have been for half a century, to sufficiently overcome the forces of downwing, anti Progress and stagnation NIMBYs, radical environmentalists and simply ideological degrowthers to solve big problems such as the scarcity of clean energy, pedacakis wrote. It's quite plausible. New York Governor Kathy Hookle's decision to effectively ban construction of large data centers for up to a year will give considerable encouragement to those wishing to replicate the action elsewhere. Clearly, the anti data center movement is gaining ground, and that was true even before the New York permitting pause. Despite all the talk about escalating power needs of AI infrastructure, it's now obvious that AI optimists have been underpricing the social license issue, specifically how hard those aforementioned downwing forces will fight to keep their dominant position by exaggerating issues of electricity prices and water usage as their vectors, pedacakis wrote. For those activists, the real issue is their dislike of techno capitalism as much as it is their disdain for nuclear powered AI data centers. Even if these data centers are powered by small modular nuclear reactors and recycle all their water, the activist opposition will continue. Alright, let's head over to Ari for his take.
- [18:05]
Ari Weitzman
Let me start with this. I don't know a single person who wants data centers in their backyard. They are loud, unsightly, energy hungry facilities that can also put demands on water services and roads in municipal logistics. It's very easy to extrapolate a basic stance on Governor Hochul's executive order from there Data center bad Law against data center good. In reality, the actual opinions aren't nearly so primitive, but that truly is the shape of many of the arguments in support of New York's one year moratorium. And let's just take a second and examine our own responses here. If you support this moratorium, did you soberly arrive at that position after reading the executive order and weighing the pros and cons? Or did you cheer as soon as you read the headline and find that everything you learned since has somehow just happened to fit with within your original stance? And I'll flip the question on myself. Did I already come to my conclusion on this before I wrote about the story before she graduated from Tangle, Associate Editor Lindsay Knuth and I debated this exact question. Should we be building more data centers or not? I took the position that we should be building more data centers, not slowing down construction. So I'm coming into this issue with my own biases against this Executive Order. For instance, I believe that the environmental and water use impact on data centers are largely exaggerated, that most people who oppose data centers rely daily on the digital services that they generally provide, and that we will all benefit from new, more efficient facilities being built. Not by pausing construction on new hyperscalers. I will see. Yes, I'm nervous about any energy intensive megaprojects in the Southwest where water is scarce and cooling is expensive. But in general I'm in favor of building more advanced and more efficient data centers. I articulated that position in April like this the same logic that goes into running and maintaining landfills goes into building and leveraging giant data centers. They're unsightly and you definitely wouldn't want to live next to one, but their environmental impacts are frequently overstated and you also wouldn't want to live without them. My initial gut level reaction to Hochul's order was only slightly more evolved than the response I ridiculed above. Data center more good than bad Law against Data center more bad than good but could that be wrong? Let's look at what the actual text of Executive Order 62 dictates, which, broadly speaking, is these two things. 1. The Department of Public Service will complete an environmental review on the environmental impacts of constructing large data centers, including energy, energy demand, water use and quality, air quality, disproportionate impact on disadvantaged communities and noise levels. The Department of Environmental Conservation will pause for one year any discretionary permit approval, license, or similar form of permission for the construction or expansion of a data center. The order also directs state agencies to publish recommendations for construction. But that's the gist. A halt and a review right away. I can't help but notice the similarities between this and the hated Environmental Impact Report, a well intended tool weaponized by NIMBYS to slow, delay and eventually block new developments, often housing, that are in their neighborhoods. Obviously, building to provide shelter for human beings is not the same as building to provide shelter for server racks. But apartment buildings and data centers are both resources that people, even those who aren't talking to Claude or ChatGPT Daily, will use. Despite Governor Hochul's insistence to be contrary, I have a hard time believing that this is anything more than a delay tactic that will beget more delay tactics. Because really, what directives in this order are actually novel. New York's State Environmental Quality Review act already requires an environmental impact report for any project that could have potentially significant adverse impacts to localities. Municipalities already require major infrastructure projects to go through their planning boards for approval. The state's water resource law already requires all non agricultural water withdrawal systems with the capacity to withdraw 100,000 gallons per day or more to apply to the state for permitting. The New York Independent System Operator for electricity already mandates an interconnection study for any project with a large electricity draw. And what more will the New York Department of Public Service tell us after a year of studying the impacts of data centers that university studies, tech companies, think tanks, environmental lobbies, and congressional reports that have already looked into this issue haven't already discovered? The thing that really should get a developmental pause in a broad review. The thing data centers are a proxy for is artificial intelligence. Data centers have existed since the dawn of the Internet, but most of us only started to talk about them in the last year as they've grown to service a technology that's scaling well ahead of consumer demand and far past its creators ability to prepare for its safe usage. And it can sometimes feel like we're being asked to just shut up and let the slop wash over us. Just download the app, just use the AI integrated service chatbot, just let Skynet move in next door and just dumbly smile and let the bot do all the thinking for you. But the Governor of New York doesn't have the authority to issue a moratorium on AI development. But what she can do instead is signal opposition to the thing that is a physical proxy for it. And since that proxy also happens to be broadly unpopular, passing a redundant executive order signaling opposition to it is politically advantageous. So I need to take pause here because conveniently, I've wound up with the same opinion I had when I first read this executive order. Maybe I'm wrong. After all, I'm no AI accelerationist, and I won't weep for the delays and advancement this executive order may, but probably won't usher in. What's the most likely way this order could benefit the state of New York in ways that existing laws and studies can't. In theory, the one year moratorium could allow the tech industry time to review whether public demand is actually going to merit the massive scale it's currently building out. Then, if and when the AI forever starts to die down a bit, some poor town won't be left supporting a massive unused boondoggle but that likely isn't going to happen. If AI demand dies, older data centers will probably go offline before new ones, and it wasn't the rationale behind Governor Hochul's order. I just don't think this is effective policy. If anything, Hochul's order will likely push companies that were considering building in New York to into other much more resource strained regions of the country. So ultimately I might be singing a different tune if Arizona or Nevada had passed a similar law. But I struggle to see a way New York pausing development of data centers for a year is a net good. So that's it for my take. I'm going to hand it over to my colleague Will K back for his dissent and then we'll pass it over to John for the rest of the pod. Thanks all foreign.
- [25:30]
Podcast Host (Ad Read)
We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [25:34]
Charles Schwab Announcer
Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day, but what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen@schwab.com WashingtonWyse
- [26:01]
Monday.com AI Agent Ad
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- [26:26]
Will Kobach
Hi, this is Senior Editor Will Kbach. I had a descent to Ari's take today, and here it is. I'll start by ceding a few points to Ari. He's right that this executive order resembles a NIMBY style environmental impact report that could prove hollow and fruitless. Separately, many aspects of data centers this review will explore have already been studied at length, and Governor Hochul is almost certainly issuing this order as much for political expedience as prudent policy. And lastly, the order could push new construction out of New York and into states navigating far more severe resource challenges. With all that said, I still disagree that this move will be a net negative. For one, New York's State Environmental Quality Review act doesn't bar approval for projects found to have a negative environmental impact. So under pre existing law, new data centers could still be built even if the review had flagged significant concerns. So a one year moratorium like Hochul has issued allows for a true pause. Second, the benefit of the environmental study isn't to uncover new findings about data centers impacts, but to inform a framework that state agencies can rely on in future permitting questions about acceptable levels of water use, energy use, indirect emissions and other considerations won't be left to individual agencies to squabble over. Instead, a common standard can be established and perhaps even make construction more efficient in the long run. And finally, even accepting Ari's point that data center opposition is mostly a proxy for anti artificial intelligence sentiment, I think the order's provision for a community investment framework to aid municipalities in negotiations with developers developers addresses valid concerns about data centers potential to trample on small communities that often lack the power or the resources to push back on unwanted building. With all that said, I am taking Hochul at her word that this will only be a one year maximum pause. If the moratorium is extended or key provisions of the order aren't enacted, I'll stop seeing the tradeoffs of this move as worthwhile. Alright, that's my dissent. Sending it back over to John.
- [28:48]
John Wall
Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. The Department of Education recently finalized a new metric to determine the effectiveness of college programs, which it will begin testing in 2027. The metric, called the do no Harm Test, will compare the earnings of college students four years after graduation with the earnings of adults holding only high school diplomas. If a bachelor's program's median graduate does not earn more than a median high school graduate, it will fail the test and the Department of Education could revoke access to federal loans and in rare cases, the Pell Grant. The first round of penalties under the new test could begin as early as 2028. Inside higher ed has this story and you can check it out with a link in today's episode description. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Alyssa Curtis grew up in a family that relied on weekly trips to food pantries. As a kid, Curtis noticed a lack of quality in the items given out for free and as an adult, decided to come up with a fix. She and her husband, a carpenter, set up their first food pantry last fall. Curtis posted a video of the building process on social media and after months of supportive messages, they started building more. In May. Shamefree Collective was approved as a non profit and has since built over 20 pantries to supply residents in and around Lowell, Michigan with medicine, dog food, cereal, diapers, rice and Mac and cheese. I've heard of a lot of moms skipping dinner so that their kids could have food in their bellies, curtis said. That's what really moved my spirit to do something about creating Access Today has this story and you can check it out with the link in today's episode description. All Right, everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership, or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Wall signing off. Have a great day, y'.
- [30:41]
Ari Weitzman
All.
- [30:41]
John Wall
Peace.
- [30:43]
Podcast Host (Ad Read)
Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Wall. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing editor Ari Weitzman with Senior editor Will Kobach and Associate editors Audrey Moorhead and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
- [31:22]
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- [31:25]
John Wall
and I absolutely love it.
- [31:26]
Monday.com User
Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind. Now they live inside Monday.com, so they see the full picture. My work, my team, the whole company. And I don't have to worry about the the data. It's safe, which means I'm free to focus on the big stuff. Knowing everything runs smoothly in the background, it's completely shifted the way we work. Create your own AI agent in minutes
- [31:50]
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- [32:22]
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