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- [00:00]
Paige Desorba
When you're starting off with something new, it seems like your to do list keeps growing. Finding the right tool helps. And that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of US e commerce. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com retail. Go to shopify.com retail this is Paige.
- [00:29]
Linda
Desorba from Giggly Squad. Opill is a game changer for sexual reproductive health. They're the first over the counter daily birth control pill available in the U.S. finally, the days of needing a prescription to get birth control are over. Opill is FDA approved, no prescription needed, full prescription strength, estrogen free, and available online and at most major retailers. So when there's no prescription, no appointment, there's no hassle, no no more waiting at the doctor's office to get a prescription. Opill will be easily accessed over the counter in store or online and will be ready for when you need it. Opill is available online and at most major retailers. Use code giggly for 25% off your first month of opill@opill.com we had a 1200% increase in sales using TikTok ads. My name is Linda and I'm a co founder of Love and Pebble. We created Beauty Pops, a frozen facial that melts into nourishing skincare. I started this business with my husband and we do everything from packing, orders, marketing. Before it was just me creating videos, but now I have over 2000 affiliates that are working with us. If we can do it with TikTok ads, you can too.
- [01:38]
Isaac Saul
Want to grow your business fast? Head over to get started.TikTok.com TikTokads from.
- [01:50]
Linda
Executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle Foreign.
- [02:06]
John Law
Good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast. A place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Soul. Today is Wednesday, April 23rd and this is the second time I've recorded this podcast because I recorded the entire thing this morning and then didn't save it after I X'ed out of our recording program which I've never done before. So take two. We are covering Pete Hegseth and a bunch of the controversy that has been following him around. Before we jump in though, I want to give you a quick heads up that on Friday I'm going to be publishing a piece about the immigration policies that we lived under during President Biden's term. Last week, as part of my take, I made the case briefly that President Biden and Democrats really did make a mess of immigration during his term. I did not think this was a particularly controversial take to have, but the response to it made me think that maybe it was worth fleshing that position out. I know for many of our listeners and readers that maybe was an uncontroversial thing to say. But I realized that a lot of people, probably people on the left, Democratic voters, don't actually think Biden deserves blame for what happened when he was president on the immigration issue because there was a deal that Trump tanked and Covid and all this other stuff, I think they're wrong. And so I'm gonna take some time to explain why. Cause I think it's an important part of what we're witnessing now. All right, with that, I'm gonna send it over to John for today's main pod and I'll be back for my take.
- [03:48]
Isaac Saul
Thanks, Isaac, and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, the Trump administration has reportedly presented Ukraine with a final offer for a peace deal with Russia, which includes US Recognition of Crimea as a Russian territory and unofficial recognition of Russian control of most areas occupied since the start of the war. The U.S. expects Ukraine's response by Wednesday. Number two, President Donald Trump said he does not plan to fire Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, but reiterated that Powell should lower interest rates. President Trump also said that current U.S. tariffs on China would come down substantially. Number three, a federal judge blocked the Trump administration's efforts to dismantle Voice of America and other outlets under the U.S. agency for Global Media, directing the agency to reinstate employees placed on leave. Separately, the Environmental Protection Agency moved to fire approximately 280 workers involved with environmental justice and diversity, equity and inclusion programs. Number four, the Supreme Court appeared likely to side with a group of parents who want to opt their children out of educational content that includes LGBTQ themes. Separately, a federal jury found the New York Times not liable for allegedly defaming Sarah palin in a 2017 editorial about gun control. And number five, Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Marty McCary said the FDA plans to revoke authorization of two synthetic food colorings and work with food producers to phase out six others by the end of 2026. News breaking over the weekend first reported by the New York Times that Hegses shared information about airstrikes in Yemen on March 15 in a group chat on Signal that included his wife. It included his brother and his personal attorney. In the past week, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth has been the subject of scrutiny from former staffers and anonymous sources within the federal government, leading to an unconfirmed report that President Donald Trump was considering replacing him. On Saturday, April 19, three senior Department of Defense officials who had been fired for allegedly leaking sensitive information criticized their dismissals in a public statement on X. Then on Sunday, the New York Times reported that Hegset shared sensitive information about US Strikes in Yemen in a second Signal chat that included his wife, brother and personal lawyer. Also on Sunday, former chief Pentagon spokesman John Olya wrote an op ed in politico describing the DoD as in total chaos under Hegseth and calling for his firing. Finally, NPR reported that the White House had begun to search for Hegseth's replacement. On Monday, though, the White House denied the report for context. On March 24, the Atlantic's editor in chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, reported that he had been added to a group chat on Signal, a free encrypted messaging app with Trump administration officials as they discussed impending military operations against the Houthis in Yemen. Monday's New York Times article stated that Hegseth posted the same information in the second Signal chat on the same day against warnings from an aide not to share sensitive information over unsecured networks. Weeks later, on April 15, two senior Pentagon officials, Senior Advisor Dan Caldwell and Pentagon Deputy Chief of Staff Darren Selnick, were placed on administrative leave while the DoD investigated alleged leaks of sensitive information that included reports about Elon Musk's visit to the Pentagon and military plans regarding the Panama Canal, the Red Sea and Ukraine. Caldwell, Selnick and Colin Carroll, the chief of staff to Deputy Defense Secretary Steven Feinberg, were then fired on April 18 for mishandling classified information. The three officials disputed the DoD's reasoning, saying unnamed Pentagon officials have slandered our character with baseless attacks on our way out the door. Olyk corroborated this sentiment in his Politico op ed, writing that Hegseth's team has developed a habit of spreading flat out easily debunked falsehoods anonymously about their colleagues on their way out the door. Although they were critical of the doj, Caldwell, Selnick, Carroll and Oliott all expressed continued support for President Trump in their writings. Secretary Hegseth denied the accounts from the fired officials in an interview with Fox News Brian Kilmeade on Monday. None of this is based in reality, Hegseth said, those folks who were leaking who have been pushed out of the building are now attempting to leak and sabotage the president's agenda. The White House expressed support for Secretary Hegseth and pushed back against the recent reports. He's doing a great job. Ask the Houthis how he's doing, president Donald Trump said, while White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt dismissed the NPR report as fake news based on one anonymous source who clearly has no idea what they're talking about. Today we'll explore what the left and right are saying about Secretary Hegseth and then Isaac's Take.
- [09:00]
John Law
Foreign. We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [09:09]
Paige Desorba
When you're starting off with something new, it seems like your to do list keeps growing. Finding the right tool helps, and that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of US e commerce. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month tr@shopify.com retail go to shopify.com retail hey.
- [09:38]
Isaac Saul
It'S Marc Maron from WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because you chose it well. Choose Progressives. Name your price tool and you could find insurance options that fit your budget. So you can pick the best one for your situation. Who doesn't like choice? Try it@progressive.com and now some legal info. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states all right, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. The left argues Hegseth has again shown he's not fit to be defense secretary. Some suggest his time at the Pentagon may be coming to an end. Others say Trump is standing by Hegseth in defiance of the media and his critics. In the Atlantic, David A. Graham said Hegseth is running out of excuses. Of course, Pete Hegseth had other signal chats. The latest article, like Goldberg's, raises questions about whether highly classified information is really safe. Members of the military expressed anger after the first leak, noting that breaches could put them in danger and and that if they had handled such material the same way, they would have received serious discipline. Graham wrote. The fact that four separate people were willing to speak out about this to the Trump detested New York Times is an indication of dysfunction, just as the constant stream of leaks from within the first Trump White House laid bare the internecine warfare there. A secretary facing the scandals that Hegseth has might well have been forced out by now in any other administration, though to be fair, they might also never have been confirmed or even nominated in the first place. The president's reluctance to get rid of Hegseth apparently stems from his belief that he let the media push him around too much during his first term and that if he cans any official who's under fire, he will only encourage and empower the press, graham said. This is a dangerous game to play with national security, though. If Trump is unwilling to take a political loss now, what kind of geopolitical laws does he risk? Later in the American Prospect, Ryan Cooper suggested Hegseth may be too incompetent even for Trump. It was just less than a month ago when Hegseth was embroiled in a scandal that would have meant the end of his career and permanent ignominy for any official in a normal administration, cooper wrote. It's hard to know where to start with these stories. For one thing, all these group chats basically have to be a violation of multiple laws regarding classified information. Now American law in this area, particularly the Espionage act, is kind of a mess. People like Reality Winner and Charles Littlejohn have gone to prison for years for disclosing information that didn't harm national security in the slightest. One can only speculate as to the motives of whoever leaked these chats to the Times. Perhaps a certain faction among Trump's herd of squabbling morons is embarrassed by Hegseth and trying to get him fired. Or perhaps members of the military fed up with Hegseth, putting American soldiers lives at risk or angry about being fired for no reason got wind of them, cooper said. The sheer number of possibilities is another demonstration of why you don't conduct highly sensitive discussions on your personal cell phone. At least the Russians and the Chinese and probably a half dozen other nations must be assumed to have a periscope into top American military communications at all times. In cnn, Stephen Collinson wrote about why Hegseth looks safe for now. President Donald Trump spent huge political capital getting Hegseth confirmed because the Pentagon chief mirrors Trump's own riotous political identity and instincts. The point of his selection was to show the conventions and traits that normally define top national security officials don't apply in the president's tear it down second term, collinson said. This is why Hegseth seems safe for now, despite stunning new revelations that he shared sensitive military plans in a group chat that included his wife and brother, among others, following an earlier scandal over his communicating details about strikes on Yemen in a chat with top officials. Firing Hegseth three months into a tenure that started with national security experts warning he was dangerously unprepared to lead the Pentagon would force an embarrassed Trump to admit he'd made a mistake, collinson wrote. And critically, Hegseth has not yet committed the unpardonable transgression that led to the departure of two Trump first term defense secretaries trying to thwart the president. Fresh drama around Hegseth is another reminder that the 47th president's orbit doesn't follow the rules of normal administrations in which the breach of sensitive information would be a career ending disgrace. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying. Which brings us to what the right is saying. The right mostly backs Hegseth, suggesting the attacks on him are being led by protectors of the status quo in the Defense Department. Some say Trump should continue to stand behind Hegseth. Others suggest Hegseth is validating the concerns of his critics. In the Federalist, Shawn Fleetwood said the new anti Hegseth op illustrates the media's campaign to protect the Pentagon status quo. While Democrats have predictably latched onto these new hatchet jobs to re up their demands for Hegseth to lose his job, the media's latest bombshells aren't the earth shattering scandals they wish they were. If anything, the use of anonymous sources and disgruntled former colleagues is straight out of the same playbook these journalists have been running to try and oust Hegseth since he was tapped to lead the Pentagon last year. Fleetwood the D.C. establishment's continued campaign to oust Hegseth comes from its fervent opposition to the much needed change he's bringing to the Pentagon. Unlike his predecessors, Hegseth is someone who comes from outside this incestuous system that's responsible for the decay witnessed throughout America's armed forces. Much like Trump, he's a disruptor and by every measure he's doing exactly what the president appointed him to do, fleetwood said. The loudest voices within the D.C. establishment aren't concerned that Hegseth doesn't have what it takes to lead the Pentagon. Rather, they're afraid of the changes he is and will continue to implement that directly disrupt the status quo they've spent years protecting. In Hot Air, Ed Morrissey wrote about Trump's continued confidence in Hegseth this is just the same signal scandal dressed up again for a rerun in April. Yawn, morrissey said. That's not to say these were good practices by the NATSAC team at the White House. Hopefully they learned a lesson about using chat platforms for sensitive discussions, especially after letting Jeffrey Goldberg into the room. However, this is hardly the stuff of dismissals, especially lately and especially at the dod. Did anyone in the media or the DOD demand the firing of Lloyd Austin when he went AWOL at the same time his deputy was on vacation? Did Austin and others get fired for botching the Kabul withdrawal? This is what the media does to officials they don't like. They didn't do it to Austin, even though he imminently deserved it for Afghanistan and his inexplicable disappearance without notice. The media didn't bother to wonder why Austin didn't get cashiered for either of those debacles. So their interest isn't in national security or military readiness and not even in government accountability. They simply want to dismantle the Trump administration by any means necessary, and Trump won't play that game with them. In the dispatch, Michael Warren asked, Will Pete Hegseth be Trump's first Cabinet casualty? Chaos and upheaval plague the office of the secretary of Defense as the fallout from last month's Signal Gate revelations persists. All of it seems to stem from the management style, or lack thereof, of Pete Hegseth, warren wrote in the last week, Hegseth has fired most of his inner circle of advisors, ostensibly in response to an investigation into leaks. Joe Casper, Hegseth's chief of staff, who called for the investigation, is also reportedly leaving for another post at the department. Meanwhile, two people with knowledge of the department's inner functions say much of the policy work there has ground to a halt. But part of that inertia is thanks to Hegseth's order for an 8% cut to the defense budget, with a vague promise to redirect funding toward other Pentagon priorities. But that instruction is the exception for Hegseth, who spends a lot more time than his predecessors in the job on social media and doing television hits, Warren said. Whether Twitter posts and Fox News hits will save Hegseth remains to be seen, though the report that the White House is already looking for a successor is not a good sign that the president has much confidence in him. All right, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
- [18:47]
John Law
All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take. So honestly, I'm not really sure what people were expecting to pull from some writing that I did in January. I'll just read this quote. The vast majority of the issues facing our Department of Defense involve wasteful spending, inventory issues, shaky leadership, and the fact we are falling behind on advanced military technology. I do not see any reason to believe Hegseth, who as a leader of several smaller, less complicated organizations has been followed by allegations of poor leadership, disorganization, sexual misconduct, poor financial management, and drunkenness, is going to be the right person to solve these issues. This is the Hegseth story. I just have to say this. Everything he touches turns to chaos. This was what we found out in his confirmation hearing. Since that hearing, Hegseth has proven himself to be wholly and obviously unqualified to lead a department that employs 3 million people and has a budget of over $800 billion in a matter of weeks. Hegseth has been implicated in the Signal Chat controversy, a spate of leaks, another Signal Chat scandal that involves sending class information to his family members and then resignations and dismissals of some of his closest allies and top aides. We're not even at the 100 day mark yet. As tired as the exercise of what if some official from the other party did this stuff can be, it's worthwhile nonetheless. The previous Defense Secretary, Lloyd Austin, underwent surgery to treat prostate cancer, then spent three days in the hospital due to complications from his surgery. He had his deputy assume his responsibilities for a couple days and kept his hospitalization hidden from the public and the President, later justifying his actions by asking for privacy in tangle. I called Austin's absence an inexcusable and fireable offense, and I said it was incomprehensible that Biden would not relieve him of his duties. I was not ambiguous. You don't get to be Defense Secretary and then hide prostate cancer from the country and go AWOL after a medical procedure. Commentators from the right seem to unanimously agree, and Austin's defenders looked like little more than Democratic Party sycophants. What Hegseth has done in these first few months is at least as inexcusable and fireable. The first reported Signal Chat alone should have cost him his job, not just using an unauthorized chat platform to share details of classified war plans. And yes, they were obviously classified war plans, but inadvertently sharing them with a reporter and then refusing to take any responsibility for it. His office, by his own telling, is leaking like a sieve, which is also his responsibility, as the people closest to the Secretary are the people he hired. More broadly, the DoD is in complete disarray. Stories about Hegseth attempting to give Elon Musk access to the most sensitive materials we have about China or about attempted coups inside the Pentagon haven't even reached the public consciousness yet. Anyone who is calling for Austin's resignation should be calling for Hegseth to step down, too. Now Hegseth is running the predictable and obvious play, framing the last month of news as some kind of hit campaign coordinated by the media and anonymous leakers who want to sabotage President Trump. On the contrary, Hegseth is ducking accountability for a mess entirely of his own making. He fired a group of top aides in the midst of an investigation that he has admitted may prove they were innocent. One of the aides claims he was already exonerated. Dan Caldwell immediately went on Tucker Carlson's new show to tell his story, making the case that he was dismissed for opposing a strike on Iran. And Hegseth's description of the investigation has not made any sense. He's called these aides leakers over and over again, yet says they still may be innocent. The administration has claimed the aides had their phones examined and were given polygraph tests, but the investigation reportedly did not include those statements. Steps those aides may very well have leaked information before or after Hegseth did. I personally have no idea, but he doesn't seem to know either. The most damning statement, though it wasn't made anonymously, it was written by John Elliot in January. Elliot argued unequivocally that Hegseth was the best man for the job. Now, after experiencing Hegseth's dysfunctional leadership firsthand, he insists the president must fire his secretary of defense to to be able to execute his agenda. This is not a vague smear from the media. This is not an anonymous leak. This is a stone cold Trump ally who, after working directly for Hegseth, whom he supported, is now warning the country that we need to cut bait. It's worth noting too many of Hegseth's critics are conservatives. Unfortunately, Trump seems determined to dig in, though credible reports indicate the Trump administration is already searching for his replacement. I could easily see Trump keeping Hegseth on out of a desire to resist calls for action from his number one enemy, the media. As Stephen Collinson put it, firing Hegseth three months into a tenure that started with national security experts warning he was dangerously unprepared to lead the Pentagon would force and embarrass Trump to admit he'd made a mistake. To be fair to Trump, firing a defense secretary is close to unprecedented, and the forced resignations of previous secretaries have mostly followed much larger issues, like Donald Rumsfeld being forced out of his handling of the Iraq war. Trump could easily keep pushing a Hegseth versus the media narrative while touting increased military recruitment and likely mitigate the political risk of keeping him around. But I don't think he should. Again, this was predictable. In our very first coverage of Trump's Cabinet appointees, I was most critical of three picks, Matt Gaetz, Tulsi Gabbard, and Pete Hegseth. Gates obviously didn't even make it to a vote. Gabbard has so far been a major disappointment on her promises to be transparent and hold leakers accountable, a standard that would have already sent Hegseth out the door. And Hegseth, as I think is obvious by now, is clearly not up to the job, just as Hegseth is responsible for the staff he hired. President Trump bears the blame for these picks, but he has plenty of time to set them right. And he should start by finding a competent replacement for Hegseth, who is a self evidently incompetent leader holding one of the most important jobs in the country. Trump should do that now before we actually need to rely on Hegseth and his inadequate leadership skills to defend us from any potential future threats. We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [25:24]
Paige Desorba
Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out procrastination, putting it off, kicking the can down the road in plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done out carpet in the bathroom. Like why? In knowing what to do, when to do it and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack Today It's a cold day.
- [25:51]
Isaac Saul
Here in Alaska, but there's one animal seemingly unaffected, bright eyed and determined enters the husky. Observe as they go up the mountain guided by pure instinct. They are truly amazing masters of this wilderness. But even these amazing pets can't sign up for Lemonade Pet Insurance. You can sign up now@lemonade.com Amazing.
- [26:28]
John Law
All right, that is it for my take. Which brings us to your questions answered. This is a fairly spicy one from an anonymous reader in St. Augustine, Florida who said if you are considered a moderate, why don't we keep a checklist of your daily positions left neutral right? I already know as well as you that it will end up left majority by a long shot. NPR radio went the same way as your post and NPR is just another CNN copycat. How sad you have turned out to be. Okay, I will say this is a bit exhausting, but you write publicly, you do this stuff publicly, you have to accept that these kinds of criticisms are gonna come and you need to be able to address them. So what really matters here is how you define left and right. And if right just means supporting President Trump's position on Kilmar Abrega Garcia's imprisonment in El Salvador, my biggest takeaway was that the federal government was not granting him due process. I think that was a pretty centrist position, but this holding it put me on the left for disagreeing with the Trump administration. Judge J. Harvey Wilkinson iii, a conservative Reagan appointed district judge in Texas, blistered the Trump administration's challenge to a lower court's ruling. Is he on the left? And how would the many conservative commentators who took similar stances be classified? Or when we covered the first signal leak controversy, I said that it was a misuse of information handling that required accountability. I think that was a pretty centrist position. But again, does holding it put me on the left for disagreeing with the Trump administration? National Review's Noah Rothman, a respected columnist with strong conservative bona fides, wrote that the leak was undermining US Security in measurable ways. I doubt anyone would accuse Rothman of being on the left. For yet another example, every time we've covered the Trump administration's tariff plan, I've criticized it for being harmful to our economy and lacking strategic vision. I think that opposition to tariffs is actually a traditional free market conservative position. Peter Navarro, the White House advisor behind Trump's tariff policy, has pushed for higher taxes on the rich and has run for office as a Democrat four times. You get the point. Finally, while I have never personally done a meta analysis of all of Tangles posts in See where I Landed, we have been rated center and non partisan by three major media watchdogs. I've also asked Grok to analyze 300 of my posts, which it said it was incapable of doing. But it did take a sample of 15 my takes at random and found that 12 of the 15 were center positions. Two were rated left, one for denying election fraud claims, another for supporting the vaccine rollout during COVID and one was rated other. I've actually linked to my full exchange with Grox. You can read it to see the proof for yourself. It has also analyzed my personal bias and given encouraging answers. So before attacking me, it might be worth thinking about how your own personal biases are affecting the lens you see me through. All right, that is it for your questions answered. I'm going to send it back to John for the rest of the pod. I'll see you guys tomorrow. Peace.
- [29:42]
Isaac Saul
Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the Radar story for today, folks. In recent weeks, the Trump administration has heard proposals from various advocates on strategies to increase the birth rate in the United States. The ideas have ranged from scholarship allocations for married people or parents to a baby bonus for mothers after delivery, to government funding for education on conception. The US birth rate has declined since 2007, raising concerns across diverse swaths of society who seek to reverse course. While some promote child rearing to uphold traditional family values, others emphasize the economic and social consequences of a low birth rate and encourage the use of reproductive technologies like in vitro fertilization. The White House says it is hearing out all ideas, but has not indicated which path it might pursue. The New York Times has this story and there's a link in today's episode Description alright, next up is our numbers section. The length of time that Robert McNamara served as Secretary of Defense from 1961 to 1968 was seven years and 39 days, the longest tenure for a secretary of defense in US History. The length of time that Elliot Richardson served as Secretary of defense in 1973 was 114 days, the shortest tenure for a secretary of defense in U.S. history. Richardson left the position after he was appointed U.S. attorney General. The percentage of Americans who think Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth should resign and stay on the job, respectively, is 54% and 22%, according to a March 2025 JL Partners poll. The percentage of Republicans who think Hegseth should resign and stay on the job, respectively, is 38% and 33%. The percentage of independents who think Hegseth should resign and stay on the job, respectively, is 54% and 20%. The percentage of Democrats who think heseth should resign and stay on the job, respectively, is 68% and 14%, and the approximate amount of cuts to Defense Department spending announced by hegseth as of April 10th is $6 billion. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. Many assume that a dementia diagnosis is incompatible with a modern digital workplace. However, new research from the University of Bath suggests that AI can help dementia patients, potentially allowing them to continue their careers. It is superb at solving many of the problems faced by those with dementia, such as finding words, organizing text, and putting words in the right sequence. Couple that with the potential offered by hybrid working for those with dementia and you can see the benefits for both employees and companies. Dr. James Fletcher of the University of Bath School of Management said. Science Daily has this story and there's a link in today's episode description. All right everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace.
- [32:59]
John Law
Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul and our Executive Producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kaback and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Saw, Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com.
- [33:36]
Linda
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Paige Desorba
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- [35:09]
Isaac Saul
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