Podcast Summary: "PREVIEW - I think I’m leaving Zionism, or Zionism is leaving me"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Tangle
• Host/Author: Isaac Saul
• Episode: PREVIEW - I think I’m leaving Zionism, or Zionism is leaving me
• Release Date: May 30, 2025

Introduction

In this profound and emotionally charged episode of Tangle, host Isaac Saul delves deep into his evolving relationship with Zionism. He candidly shares his personal journey from an enthusiastic supporter to a critical voice questioning the very foundations of Zionism. This episode promises a heartfelt exploration of identity, faith, and political ideology, offering listeners an intimate glimpse into Isaac's conflicted stance amidst the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Isaac’s Early Connection to Israel

Isaac begins by recounting his first visit to Israel at the age of 21 through Taglit Birthright, a program that offers young Jewish adults a 10-day, all-expenses-paid tour of the country. He describes the trip as a transformative experience:

Isaac (02:15): "You are greeted and spoken to like a long lost family member returning home... It is equal parts exhilarating and identity forming."

Despite his skepticism as a budding journalist, the trip ignited a profound sense of belonging and spiritual awakening. Isaac emphasizes the duality of his feelings—acknowledging the propaganda nature of the tour while being unable to dismiss the genuine emotions it evoked.

Deepening Involvement and Growing Awareness

Post-college, Isaac's commitment to Zionism deepened as he moved to East Jerusalem. He spent six months immersed in an all-boys yeshiva, studying Hebrew and Torah, which solidified his religious and cultural ties to Israel. His exploration extended beyond the heartland to conflict zones such as the Golan Heights, Hebron, and the Gaza Strip.

Isaac (07:30): "The more people I spoke to, the more complicated my feelings. The more I read and experienced, the less I felt I knew."

Through interactions with Arabs and Muslims, participation in peace initiatives like Ultimate Peace, and witnessing firsthand the tensions in Israeli society, Isaac's initial idealization of Israel began to fracture. However, his love and connection to the country remained steadfast, now intertwined with a deeper understanding of its complexities and contradictions.

Commitment to Zionism

By his second visit, Isaac had transformed into an observant Jew and a committed Zionist. His studies in Yeshiva provided him with a robust framework for his beliefs, blending cultural identity with religious conviction.

Isaac (12:10): "Understanding the opportunity to stress test my beliefs and my doubts, I found the answers I sought compelling."

He highlights Zionism's historical significance—the revival of Jewish sovereignty after centuries of persecution—and expresses unwavering pride in Israel's achievements.

The Turning Point: October 7, 2023

The narrative takes a pivotal turn as Isaac reflects on the events of October 7, 2023, marked by a brutal terrorist attack by Hamas. This incident acts as a catalyst for his burgeoning doubts about Zionism.

Isaac (17:45): "I knew Israel bore some responsibility for the conditions that led up to October 7th, and I feared things were about to get a whole lot worse."

Isaac had previously maintained that criticizing Israel's flaws was essential for its improvement. However, the subsequent 20 months of escalating conflict profoundly impacted his worldview, leading him to question the viability of Israel’s project and his place within the Zionist movement.

Predictions and Realizations

Isaac recounts a forecast he made on October 8, 2023, envisioning a dire scenario by May 2025:

Isaac (22:05): "In May of 2025... 100,000 Gazans were dead, most of Gaza would be flattened... Would anyone have argued that was a success or that Israel was winning the war? The answer is obviously no."

His predictions largely materialized, with Gaza witnessing unprecedented devastation and loss of life. Contrary to his expectations, the international community did not support Israel's actions but instead condemned them, with numerous experts labeling the actions as genocide.

Defining Genocide and Israel’s Actions

Isaac delves into the UN Convention's definition of genocide, scrutinizing Israel’s actions against this framework:

Isaac (28:30): "Genocide is defined as, 'acts committed with the intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.'"

He systematically evaluates Israeli policies, asserting that Israel meets several criteria of genocide, such as:

1. Killing members of the group:

   "Israel is quite obviously guilty of [...] killing Palestinians..." (23:15)

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm:

   "Israel has cut off aid, food, and water from entering the Strip..." (24:40)

3. Inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction:

   "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part." (25:05)

4. Forcibly transferring children:

   "Israel is openly moving forward with an operation to displace all 2 million Palestinians in Gaza..." (26:50)

Isaac acknowledges the complexity of intent, noting that while many Israelis may not personally desire the destruction of Palestinians, the actions of the Israeli government suggest a systemic intent consistent with genocidal acts.

Public and Personal Backlash

Isaac faced significant backlash for his controversial positions. Fellow Zionists accused him of overreacting and committing a "blood libel" against Jews. Despite the condemnation, he stands firm in his convictions, believing that recognizing and addressing these atrocities is critical.

Isaac (30:20): "I mourn for the innocence of Palestine, just as I do for the innocence of Israel."

Current Reflections and Future Outlook

As of the podcast's recording, Isaac grapples with feelings of isolation and political homelessness. He reflects on the futility of continued violence and the bleak prospects for peace.

Isaac (33:40): "What I didn't expect was to feel so utterly alone, so politically homeless on this issue, and so disillusioned and full of pessimism about the future."

He remains committed to speaking out, hoping his narrative will resonate with others who share similar doubts and fears about Zionism's path forward.

Conclusion

Isaac Saul's PREVIEW episode on Tangle serves as a poignant and introspective examination of his disillusionment with Zionism amidst escalating conflict and humanitarian crises. Through personal anecdotes, analytical insights, and raw emotional honesty, Isaac invites listeners to contemplate the complexities of national identity, the ethics of state actions, and the profound struggle between love for one's homeland and moral accountability. This episode is an essential listen for anyone seeking to understand the nuanced and often painful realities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from an insider's perspective.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Isaac (02:15): "You are greeted and spoken to like a long lost family member returning home... It is equal parts exhilarating and identity forming."
• Isaac (07:30): "The more people I spoke to, the more complicated my feelings. The more I read and experienced, the less I felt I knew."
• Isaac (12:10): "Understanding the opportunity to stress test my beliefs and my doubts, I found the answers I sought compelling."
• Isaac (17:45): "I knew Israel bore some responsibility for the conditions that led up to October 7th, and I feared things were about to get a whole lot worse."
• Isaac (22:05): "In May of 2025... 100,000 Gazans were dead, most of Gaza would be flattened... Would anyone have argued that was a success or that Israel was winning the war? The answer is obviously no."
• Isaac (23:15): "Israel is quite obviously guilty of [...] killing Palestinians..."
• Isaac (24:40): "Israel has cut off aid, food, and water from entering the Strip..."
• Isaac (25:05): "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part."
• Isaac (26:50): "Israel is openly moving forward with an operation to displace all 2 million Palestinians in Gaza..."
• Isaac (30:20): "I mourn for the innocence of Palestine, just as I do for the innocence of Israel."
• Isaac (33:40): "What I didn't expect was to feel so utterly alone, so politically homeless on this issue, and so disillusioned and full of pessimism about the future."

Final Notes

Isaac Saul's episode is a raw and unfiltered account of personal transformation amid geopolitical turmoil. It challenges listeners to engage with uncomfortable truths and encourages a deeper, more empathetic understanding of the multifaceted Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Whether one agrees with Isaac's conclusions or not, his narrative undeniably contributes to the ongoing discourse surrounding Zionism and its implications in today's world.