PREVIEW - INTERVIEW: Ari Weitzman talks with FairVote CEO Meredith Sumpter

Summary

Tangle Podcast: Preview - Interview with FairVote CEO Meredith Sumpter

Release Date: March 5, 2025

In this special preview episode of the Tangle Podcast, host Ari Weitzman engages in an insightful conversation with Meredith Sumpter, the CEO of FairVote. The discussion centers around Ranked Choice Voting (RCV), addressing previous misrepresentations and delving into the nuances of electoral reform. This detailed summary captures the key points, discussions, and conclusions drawn during their interaction.

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1. Introduction and Context

Timestamp: [01:36]

Ari Weitzman opens the episode by recalling a prior instance where Tangle's response to a reader's question about Ranked Choice Voting (RCV) contained inaccuracies. These inaccuracies led to feedback from FairVote, prompting the podcast to issue corrections. To address this, Ari hosts Meredith Sumpter to provide clarity and delve deeper into RCV.

Notable Quote:

Ari Weitzman ([01:48]): "As some of you may recall, back in the beginning of January...we didn’t really do anything super unfactual, super wrong, but we misrepresented some arguments."

---

2. Meredith Sumpter’s Background and Role at FairVote

Timestamp: [06:07]

Meredith Sumpter introduces herself, highlighting her role as CEO of FairVote and FairVote Action. She emphasizes FairVote's mission to advance election reforms aimed at ensuring better representation and governance in the American democratic process.

Notable Quote:

Meredith Sumpter ([06:07]): "FairVote and FairVote Action are our country's national nonprofits...Ranked Choice Voting is chief among them."

---

3. The Case for Ranked Choice Voting

Timestamp: [07:01]

Ari probes into why Meredith advocates for RCV over other electoral reforms. Meredith outlines RCV’s benefits, emphasizing its ability to provide voters with more choices, ensure elected officials have broad support, and foster a more productive political culture.

Key Points:

• Voter Empowerment: RCV allows voters to rank candidates, ensuring their preferences are fully represented.
• Accountability: Elected officials must secure a majority, encouraging them to appeal to a wider base.
• Political Culture: RCV mitigates toxic partisanship by promoting coalition-building and consensus.

Notable Quote:

Meredith Sumpter ([07:01]: "RCV gives voters more say and more choices...it incentivizes officials to get things done for their constituents."

---

4. Addressing Misconceptions About RCV

Timestamp: [19:22] - [24:54]

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around common misconceptions about RCV, particularly those highlighted in Tangle's previous response. Meredith systematically addresses each misconception with data and evidence.

a. Complexity of Ranked Choice Voting

Timestamp: [19:45]

Misconception: RCV is too complicated for voters to understand.

Meredith’s Response:

• Evidence of Simplicity: In diverse and multilingual settings like New York City, 95% of voters find RCV simple ([19:45]).
• Broad Understanding: High comprehension rates are consistent across various states, including 85% in Alaska and 81% in Utah.
• Voter Education: Effective voter education and intuitive ballot design mitigate perceived complexity.

Notable Quote:

Meredith Sumpter ([19:45]): "RCV is really as simple as 1, 2, 3. Voters rank their preferences naturally."

b. Spoiled Ballots and Delays

Timestamp: [21:48]

Misconception: RCV leads to more spoiled ballots and election result delays.

Meredith’s Response:

• Spoiled Ballot Rates: The median overvote rate in RCV elections is a mere 0.15%, significantly lower than perceived ([23:35]).
• Efficient Tabulation: RCV does not inherently cause delays; in places like Alaska, 99.9% of RCV ballots are valid ([22:07]).
• Ballot Integrity: RCV allows more ballots to count by letting voters rank additional candidates, reducing nullified votes.

Notable Quote:

Meredith Sumpter ([22:07]): "In Alaska, 99.9% of RCV ballots cast were valid."

c. Mandatory Ranking Leading to Nullified Votes

Timestamp: [24:08]

Misconception: Some RCV systems require voters to rank multiple candidates, leading to vote nullification if not complied with.

Meredith’s Response:

• Voluntary Ranking: FairVote opposes mandatory ranking; voters are free to rank as many or as few candidates as they wish.
• Voter Autonomy: Voters can choose to rank only their top preference without fear of invalidating their vote.

Notable Quote:

Meredith Sumpter ([24:25]): "We would never require voters to rank their choices...voters simply rank their preferences if they choose."

---

5. RCV’s Performance in Recent Elections

Timestamp: [14:13] - [16:21]

Ari highlights RCV's resilience in the November 2024 elections, where despite a challenging cycle for pro-democracy reforms, RCV initiatives succeeded in five U.S. cities and retained acceptance in Alaska and Maine against repeal efforts.

Key Points:

• Election Success: RCV won in multiple cities, demonstrating its viability even in tough political climates.
• Public Support: Continuous voter dissatisfaction with the political system fuels support for RCV.

Notable Quote:

Meredith Sumpter ([16:21]): "RCV is a reform that continues to grow and continues to win, even when you have rough election cycles."

---

6. Future of Electoral Reforms and RCV

Timestamp: [16:58] - [23:21]

The conversation moves toward the future trajectory of electoral reforms, with Meredith advocating for continued advocacy and implementation of RCV to enhance democratic representation.

Key Points:

• Ongoing Efforts: FairVote and allies remain committed to promoting RCV across more jurisdictions.
• Voter Engagement: Addressing voter dissatisfaction by providing a more representative and functional electoral system.
• Data-Driven Advocacy: Utilizing extensive data from over 800 RCV elections to support reform efforts.

Notable Quote:

Meredith Sumpter ([10:39]): "88% of Americans don't believe that our politics are working for them...RCV can bridge that gap."

---

7. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: [24:54] - [27:50]

As the interview wraps up, both Ari and Meredith underscore the importance of RCV in revitalizing American democracy. Meredith emphasizes that RCV not only addresses electoral system flaws but also fosters a political environment conducive to collaboration and effective governance.

Notable Quote:

Meredith Sumpter ([24:54]): "RCV gives voters the power to have their voices heard more fully and ensures that elected officials are accountable to a broader constituency."

---

8. Summary of Key Takeaways

• Ranked Choice Voting Enhances Voter Choice: RCV allows voters to express multiple preferences, leading to more representative outcomes.
• Misconceptions Debunked with Data: Common criticisms of RCV regarding complexity, spoiled ballots, and delays are unfounded based on empirical evidence.
• Growing Acceptance Amidst Political Turbulence: RCV continues to gain traction, proving its robustness even in challenging electoral environments.
• Future of Electoral Reform: Continued advocacy and data-driven approaches are essential for the widespread adoption of RCV and other democratic reforms.

---

This episode of Tangle Podcast offers a comprehensive examination of Ranked Choice Voting, addressing previous inaccuracies and providing a platform for constructive dialogue on electoral reform. Meredith Sumpter’s expertise and FairVote’s commitment to enhancing democracy underscore the potential of RCV to transform the American political landscape.

Transcript

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[Tangle Podcast Intro]

This is Tangle.

[Ari Weitzman]

Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast. The place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of our take. I'm your host for today, Ari Weitzman, Tangle Managing Editor, and I have a bit of a special episode for you all. As some of you may recall, back in the beginning of January, just after we came back from break, we answered a question about ranked choice voting to a reader who was a little confused about the results of the last election and how it fared in some state level ballot initiatives. So ranked choice voting was on the ballot. A lot of states didn't pass anywhere new and narrowly defended usage. In Alaska and Maine, we got a reader asking why that was Seems like ranked choice voting is a good idea. It's something we've written about supportively before. So what are the arguments against it? In our answer to that question, we made a couple statements that not only rubbed some of our friends over at FairVote the wrong way, FairVote's an organization that talks about ranked choice voting and ways to reform the democratic process to make it more representative and fair. But we were also a little off the mark.

Some of the stuff we said, we're.

Going to get into what we stepped in a little bit later in detail because I'm going to answer for our thought crimes here. Little tongue in cheek. We didn't really do anything super unfactual, super wrong.

We didn't lie.

But we misrepresented some arguments and were.

Off the base with some of the.

Ways we represented Ranked Choice voting and.

What its flaws are.

So we got a great email pushing back on some of the stuff we said from the folks at FairVote and we were offered to have a sit down conversation with Meredith Sumpter, who is the CEO of the organization, and have a conversation about what we got right, what we get wrong, where she sees Ranked Choice voting evolving in the next couple years as well as for the next election and actually how it did in the last one. So it's a productive conversation. I thought it's really appreciative for the opportunity to have it. Though of course we regret having to issue corrections anytime we have to. I've been on the podcast for a bit while Isaac, our executive editor, was on paternity leave. He's back. He's doing our normal podcast, our Fridays, a lot of bonus features. But you're still going to be hearing.

A bit from me.

So I'm going to be giving you some special interviews that we're going to keep recording. Make sure that premium podcast listeners such as yourself can continue to get some of the interesting, nuanced, broad scoped coverage that you're used to hearing from us. All right, here's my conversation with Meredith Sumter.

I'm joined today by Meredith Sumpter, who is the CEO of the nonprofit FairVote. How are you doing today, Meredith?

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

I'm well, Ari. And you?

[Ari Weitzman]

Well, I'm all right. I'm also a little bit nervous because I know part of what you're here to do is to make sure I'm taking my medicine over a correction that we had to issue about ranked choice voting. So before I do that, just setting the table for our listeners and readers, many of whom know this. When we came back from break, we answered a reader question about why Ranked Choice voting initiatives were voted down in the last election. Many ballot initiatives were, or there were many states with these ballot initiatives. The majority were voted down. And we answered a reader question saying why. In that reader question we said, well, it's confusing. It spoils ballots more often than alternatives. It requires people to vote for third options. A lot of these things weren't true. We got very polite but strongly worded email from the kind folks at FareVote letting us know we had to issue a correction pretty much right after returning from break. It was a pretty bad look for us. But as always, we appreciate the feedback and the thoughtful consideration from our intelligent readers and we're very happy that you are among them. So we're going to get into that. But first I think you should introduce yourself to everyone listening and tell us what you do at FairVote, how you got started with it.

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

Oh Aria, that's very kind. Well, first and foremost, it's just a real honor to be on the TANGLE podcast with you and we really appreciate the opportunity to share more about what a Ranked Choice voting as a meaningful reform and a winning reform can do and is capable of. So thanks so much for asking me to be on this show and to have this discussion. So I am the CEO at FairVote and FairVote Action, and these are our country's national nonprofits that are working to advance election reforms for better representation and better governance, and Ranked Choice voting is chief among them.

[Ari Weitzman]

So why rank Choice Voting? If you are a person who's concerned with electoral reform in general, there are a lot of different ways to go about reforming our electoral system. What makes Ranked Choice voting your preferred method?

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

It's a simple, proven way for our democracy to work for the American people. It gives voters more say and more choices in who represents them as well as for candidates. It means campaigning to earn a broad majority of support of your voters and actually getting things done for them. So with Ranked Choice voting, voters have the option of ranking their preferred candidates first, second, and so on. And to win, candidates need a majority of voter support. And so in that you have a way of building in both an accountability of elected officials to their voters broadly as well as for voters giving them better choices and more say in who represents them. That's also very important as well. I think just the third reason why I like Ranked Choice voting so much is that the effects of these reforms, in addition to tying elected officials more closely to the needs of their constituents broadly, they also take what has been more of a toxic political culture and makes it much more of a productive political culture with elected officials incentivized to get things done for their constituents. And so that's why I think that Ranked Choice voting is an important reform for Americans to consider it at this point in our political history.

[Podcast Transition]

We'll be right back after this Quick break.

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[Ari Weitzman]

Okay, so that's a good response about ranked choice voting. But another question that I think is important to lead with is why is this something that's caught your attention just going down your resume, looking at your background. You have experience directing Harvard University and New America Justice's Health and Democracy Impact initiative. You were CEO of the Council for Inclusive Capitalism. You were head of research and strategy at Eurasia Group. You oversaw research platform or you over. Sorry. You oversaw this research platform and advise on global politics. And you just have all of this experience across the board. So what brought you to consider electoral reforms as the next step that you're going to take in your career? And you know why? Why now?

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

Well, why now is that I'm just looking at an Ipsos poll just from this month. You have 88% of Americans who don't believe that our politics are working for them. So there's a real market opportunity here to look at the way that our political and by political I mean election systems are working in service of the American voter. Right. So my career has been one, I've spanned both the public and the private sectors. I think broadly speaking it's been one of working to ensure that there is systems health that whether it's market systems or now let's say political election systems, that these systems are functioning in ways that drive broad benefit for the shareholders in that system. And the most important shareholder here in our American democracy is the American voter, the vast majority of whom don't believe that their elected officials know or care what they think. So for me, it's just, it's an incredible opportunity to work with Fair Vote as well as election reform allies who are all focused on building better representation or enabling better representation for voters and also rewarding leaders who are working with others to get things done on behalf of their voters.

[Ari Weitzman]

So broadly speaking, interested in the health of systems. And in that regard, I led by saying I need to take my medicine here. Our Tango system we think is generally healthy, but we we had a little bit of a hiccup earlier this month. I'm going to make the unfortunate and awkward decision to read some of the answers to this reader question or read part of this answer the reader question that we got from Ben from Portland who asked why these ranked choice initiatives were voted down this past November. He asked, is it just too complicated for people and what other choices are there for getting out of this quote, awful two party system? We replied. And again, just going to jump around and paraphrase here. Yes, it's too complicated. That's not a trivial thing. When voters read up on the people they're choosing to be our leaders, they shouldn't have to read up on the system they use to elect those leaders. Electoral systems should be simple and intuitive. We then went on to say ranked choice voting was something that ended up resulting in more incorrect tabulations. They resulted in more spoiled ballots, they resulted in delays in election results. These things we didn't maybe didn't say explicitly, but we at least strongly implied, more so than the standard systems that we have across the country now. We then said, quote, voters sometimes feel like they have to fill out a spreadsheet to simply make their voices heard. All in all, the complexity of the system creates what critics believe to be irredeemable inequities. Here we link to an article about how some people's votes counted more than others because some people were able to select more options for their electoral choices, whereas others opted not to. We also have written about ranked choice voting in the past. It's something that we've been favorable towards. Frankly, it's something that I have a bias and favor towards myself. But in drafting this response, I think we probably checked our biases maybe a little too hard and we got into some hot water with the good people at FairVote. So maybe you can tell us where we went astray in our answer here.

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

Oh no hot water. Ari. I think it's just a wonderful opportunity to engage with what the evidence base is for how Americans are making use use of this reform. But before we even get into that. Look, I think the November 2024 election wasn't one that was very affirmative for the pro democracy camp. Nearly all of the nonpartisan pro voter election reforms took a hit in November, with the exception of ranked choice voting, which was the winning nonpartisan election reform and it won across five cities in the United States. In addition to we retained Alaska, which is one of two states that use ranked choice voting, against a repeal effort there. So on the whole, I just want to preface this by saying this is a reform that continues to grow and continues to win even when you have rough election cycles which do happen as countries, Americas and others, we go through cycles of reform and progress is never a linear or straight line. But having the opportunity to speak with you about what these reforms are doing, how Americans are using them, I think it's just a wonderful opportunity to answer questions that your listeners might have and speak to the points that you've raised or points from opponents to election reform who were very well organized this last election cycle and work to sow doubt amongst American voters of what these reforms are doing and are capable of. So I wonder, would it be helpful if we just would say for the misconceptions to go one point by point and sort of talk about what you've heard and then also what we know, drawing from the evidence base at FairVote of the over, let's say 800 ranked choice winning elections that we've been keeping track of and have data on over the past 20 years.

[Ari Weitzman]

Yes, I think we should definitely do that. And I'll say that just off the top, one of the things that's in the back of my head here, listening to your response, is that for sure, this last election cycle was one you characterized as a rough cycle. But for a lot of people it was a cycle that went to the direction they want to see the country go to. So for this narrow interest about electoral reforms, which is something where I know that we have a lot of overlap in our interests, I think that's something where I could definitely agree, but I just don't want to go leave that broad characterization, something that is unresponded to as we move on to these small.

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

No, that's exactly right. And we are aligned. When I say it was rough for pro democracy reformers, I think that the public vote was very clear and we had a peaceful transition of power here in Washington, D.C. this week. So more so I was speaking about the November 2024 election and that you had a bevy of democracy reforms on the ballot, pro voter democracy reforms. Nearly all of them did not pass with the exception of ranked choice voting in cities where we had an authentic ground game in peer to peer outreach as well as there was one campaign finance reform in Maine. So I want to give that a shout out as well. That's very important. But I think overall you have this deep sense that American voters are, they are unsatisfied with how their politics is working for them. And that remains true. And that's the opportunity that we have, as whether you're democracy reformers or whether you're everyday Americans, of being reengaged in how our politics are working in the interest of ordinary Americans. I think that's really the work of our time and that's frankly why I'm here at Fair Vote. Ari.

[Podcast Transition]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

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[Ari Weitzman]

And we're going to get into some of the city reforms that you were talking about. But let's go one on one or one by one on those reforms that or those misconceptions that he talked about. If they are indeed misconceptions, let's see. So we're going to grill you a little bit here, Meredith, starting with the big one. Ranked choice voting is too complicated. What do you think?

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

Look, the voters who use ranked choice voting, they understand it, they like it and they want to keep it. It's really as simple as 1, 2, 3. If I'm channeling my inner Michael Jackson here. If you look at the evidence base, 95% of New York City voters say ranked choice voting is simple. And this is a city where you have 200 different nationalities, you have ballots in five different languages. 95% look this is simple. I understand it. 85% of Alaskans say the same thing. And these are Americans who are mailing in their ballots, many of them from remote villages or communities. It's true also in places like Utah where you have 81% of Utahans who say ranked choice voting easy. I understand it, I get it. And the Reform is in 12 cities across that red state. Look, this is simple stuff. We rank things every day and as Americans we know our own minds, we know what we like. So if your top choice an election has no chance of winning, it's simply knowing who you want to be your backup choice and marking your ballot if you want to to reflect your preference. And then I think the last thing I would say is that, you know, for folks who are who think that election reforms are complicated, there are best practices in things like voter education. Super important when you're rolling out a new election system as well as ballot design making sure that you're having a ballot design that is intuitive so that it's very natural for you to be able to go in and to mark your first and second and third choice if you want in addition to hopefully the voter education that election that that locality would use in introducing these systems.

[Ari Weitzman]

Okay, but we're just getting started here, so still plenty of plenty of critiques to go through. Next would be that ranked choice voting tends to result in spoiled ballots, can cause delays which at times can last weeks and often result in incorrect tabulations.

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

All right, so gosh, which order should we go into? So let's. Spoiled ballots are exhaustive ballots. Ranked choice winning actually makes more ballots count, not fewer. So if you are ranking a weaker candidate first, you can rank a backup choice and weigh in between the front runners. If your first choice is eliminated in a single choice election, you're out of luck. If your first choice is not competitive, you don't have another choice to make. The error rates are low and on par with single choice elections. So for example, in Alaska, 99.9% of RCV ballots cast there were valid. And if you look at just the track record of ranked voting elections over the past 20 years, the and I'd love for you to. I'm just going to call you on this. Ari, if you could guess what is the median overvote rate for first round ranked choice funding elections when you have three or more candidates. Any guesses?

[Ari Weitzman]

Sorry, just making sure I understand the question. The median overvote rate when you have.

Go ahead.

What is the overvote rate?

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

So 0.15% wait, sorry.

[Ari Weitzman]

Define overvote rate. What does this mean?

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

So it's one of the error rates that are counted. Right? So if someone goes into a ballot and they mark their first choice and they mark their second and third choice in that first column, that's known as an overvote rate.

[Ari Weitzman]

Gotcha. And so 80% of the time that that happens.

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

0.15%, 0.15%, 0.15%. Yeah.

[Ari Weitzman]

So one out of 10,000 or so.

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

Very low.

[Ari Weitzman]

Okay, so not a whole lot of spoiled ballots for that reason. I've read also that there have been ranked choice voting implementations that require voters to choose multiple options and that if they do not, their votes are thrown out. Any truth to that?

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

Ranked choice splitting? As a reform and as an advocate for this reform, we would never require voters to rank their choices. That's not something that we would recommend. And in practice, voters, they rank their preferences where they're not required to. So they just want to rank their first candidate, and they don't choose to rank backup candidates.

[John Mull]

Hey, everybody, this is John, executive producer of YouTube and podcast content and co host of the daily podcast. I hope you enjoyed this exclusive preview episode. We are now offering this podcast exclusively to our premium podcast members along with our ad, free daily podcasts, Friday editions, in depth interviews, upcoming new podcast series, bonus content, and much more. If you want to receive all that and give your support to help us grow Tangle Media, Please go to retangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership, or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. If it's not the right time for you to sign up, please don't worry. Our ad supported daily podcast isn't going anywhere. But if it is in your ability to support by signing up for a membership, we would greatly appreciate it. And we're really excited to share all of our premium offerings with you. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Mull signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace.

[Podcast Transition]

Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kabak, Bailey Saul and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bokova, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. And if you're looking for more from Tango, Please go to retangle.com and check out our website.

[Tangle Podcast Intro]

G'day America. It's Tony and Ryan from the Tony and Ryan Podcast from Down under this.

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