Senator Andy Kim (3:58)

We talked a little bit about the.

Ari Weitzman (3:59)

Senate's role in the confirmation process, his viral moment after January 6th where he was cleaning up the Capitol Rotunda, as well as what he thinks Democrats did to lose the election last year and what they should be focusing on in 2026. In the end, I asked him some rapid fire questions about some New Jersey specific stuff and we end up getting his perspective on the best Bruce Springsteen album and more. Senator Kim gave us a lot of his time. It was really wonderful to get to know him a little bit more. It was an engaging conversation and I think it's something you guys will enjoy listening to. So without further ado, my interview with Senator Andy Kim of New Jersey.

Senator Andy Kim (4:42)

Senator elect from New Jersey, Andy Kim, thanks for joining us today. Andy. Senator, upcoming Senator Andy how do you do?

Isaac Saul (4:49)

I'm formally in the job now, so I just got sworn in, so I'm wow, I'm excited about what's to come.

Senator Andy Kim (4:55)

When did that happen? When did you get sworn in?

Isaac Saul (4:57)

So I got sworn in actually initially got sworn in in December because I was taking over for the previous term, but then I got sworn in for the six year term, which I'm excited about, and got to have my parents there, my two little boys, my wife there, my whole family there to watch me get sworn. And it was one of the most powerful moments in my life. It was really quite extraordinary.

Ari Weitzman (5:20)

That's, yeah, a big deal.

Senator Andy Kim (5:21)

And I from having watched some of your interviews before, you've stressed the importance that that building holds to you. I know one of the ways that a lot of our readers and listeners will have been familiar with you was from the viral images of you cleaning up the rotunda following January 6th. So I'm sure that this is a big moment that you're taking with a lot of gravity and seriousness as you prepare for your upcoming term.

Isaac Saul (5:46)

Yeah, you know, it's something that I try to always make sure that I keep sight of. I don't want to lose myself on election night. I said I'm not going to let the job change me. I'm going to try to change the job. But I think what's important is to have reverence for that building. It's a sacred building and it's something that I feel blessed to do. Who would have imagined that me as a son of immigrants, a public school kid that comes from a family of political nobodies to become the 2006th United States Senator in American history, I feel blessed to have this chance to serve.

Senator Andy Kim (6:27)

It's a compelling story that you tell about yourself as a son of immigrants and a public school kid. I want to share a little bit where you and I have some background. I'm also a public school kid, but my grandparents are immigrants, not my parents or in my great grandparents on one of my parents sides. But something you and I both share is we attended the same university after college. When I was at University of Chicago, there was one of my classmates who's one of the most intense thinkers I think I've ever encountered who was a transfer from this small two year school called Deep Springs and that is a school that you transferred from to University of Chicago as well. And I just wanted to hear you talk a little bit about Deep Springs, what brought you there and maybe describe it to our listeners who've never heard of it.

Isaac Saul (7:14)

Yeah, maybe I'll describe it first. Deep and I'm starting to think that I have some sort of weird past. But I went to this school for two years right after high school called Deep Springs College. It is the smallest higher education institution in the world. It only accepts 13 cents a year. It's a two year program, so 26 students total. And you live and work on a cattle ranch in the high Sierra Nevada area of California, Nevada border while you study the great books and study a liberal arts education. And the school is meant to convey the sense that if you give young people more responsibility than they ever dreamed that they will rise to that Challenge. And the entire mission of the school is to prepare people for lives of service to humanity. I'll be honest with you. I went there out of, you know, graduating from Cherry O East High School in suburban New Jersey. Never been out west. I was kind of drawn to some of the romanticism of being out there. And I thought, like, service was like something you did to strengthen your application to college. It was like community service. You keep track of the hours. But Deep Springs really transformed me. I was there when September 11th happened. Obviously, that affected my home state, my home community, and the whole country. And to be there at this inflection point, moment for the country and to imagine what service means, I can very confidently say I would not be a United States senator today had I not gone to Deep Springs. That's probably the best compliment I can afford to that place. And I just say I think it's something that I hope everybody has a chance to be able to experience one way or another. Not everyone's going to go to that school, nor should they necessarily. But to have a place where you can experience a true community, you know, to be there in the barren desert in the High Sierras and realize, you know, we're the valley north of Death Valley, and, you know, humans should not be able to survive there. And the only way we did it is because we worked together in a community. And I think that that had a profound effect on me and how I see the world now.

Podcast Host (9:41)

We'll be right back after this quick break.

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Senator Andy Kim (10:54)

I always marvel at the motivations that bring 13 people from across the country to bring their college experience to the High Sierras and do some ranching for two years before transferring out. But it sounds like that perspective is something that has motivated you to not only become a senator, but before that, to join Congress. So I wanted. Was it that same service mindset that brought you to want to run for Congress in 2018 before your first term? Or what was it that really motivated you to do that?

Isaac Saul (11:26)

Well, you know, in part, it's about the service. I mean, that that's where I decided to dedicate myself to wanting to do national security. But what I think Deep Springs also taught me is this sense that. A sense of the humility, that's important. Even if you're a really smart kid from Jersey, you're going to go there and realize that you don't know how to drive a tractor, you don't know how to operate a backhoe, you don't know how to dig a trench line, a pipeline. There was a lot that I had to learn, but it also just kind of taught me that, look, I may not be able to fix every problem, but I can play a productive role in trying to address that. So you mentioned, for instance, the image of me cleaning the Capitol on January 6th. That instinct to clean and to just do whatever I could came out of both being a son of a Korean mom who always told me to clean up and look out for myself and what's around me. But also, Deep Springs taught me just do whatever it takes to get the job done. He taught me that there is no job beneath us. I had to muck out sewage lines there. I had to do everything. And it just really taught me that in the work that I'm doing now in Congress and the Senate, I can't do this job if I think of myself as at a higher altitude or level than others. It gives me a sense of being a. A public servant. It's not like being this. I'm not the CEO of New Jersey or executive of New Jersey. I am a public servant. I like. Like, I have 9 million bosses in New Jersey. Like, that's the inversion, the inversion that I think is so often missing in politics, right? And so, like, that's what Deep Springs really taught me, that allowed me to be able to get to where I am, not just achieve it, but do it while I still believe I can be myself. You know, I have not had to contort myself, not run astray from my moral compass in order to achieve what I have.

Senator Andy Kim (13:33)

And it wasn't just two years at Deep Springs that is on your resume indicating a service background. You also served in Afghanistan, and you were a civilian commissioner for the Obama administration, or civilian advisor, rather, for the Obama administration. So was that military background something that also motivated you to come to Congress? Was there a specific set of challenges that you were hoping to address from your military background as you came into life as a public servant?

Isaac Saul (14:00)

Yeah, I mean, look, I was in national security, so I was on the civilian side, but I was, you know, working at State Department, a diplomat, but embedded with our military in Afghanistan. I worked at the Pentagon alongside our service members. So, yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I think, as I said, coming out from September 11th and try to think through how do we keep our country safe? That was important. But the way that I did it, I was a career guy. So you're right. I worked under the Bush administration. I also worked under the Bush. I worked under Obama, and I also worked under Bush. And I think that that was important for me, the sense that I'm part of something bigger than all of us, that we're all trying to serve, that we serve a country, not a party and not a president. And I think that that's something that has stuck with me. I very intentionally did that. I tried to work in a career way, and especially when it comes to national security. I mean, when it comes to the issues of keeping our nation safe, when it comes to weapons, when it comes to the military, when it comes to deploying service members or other Americans in harm's way, you cannot do that. And you should not do that from any standpoint of politics in terms of what's good for winning an election or things like that. So, yeah, it has shaped me. It's still to this day, I find that to be very core to who I am, that I came up, not through politics, but through career service. For instance, I worked in the Senate briefly when I was a staffer. I worked actually for a Republican staffer. I worked for Senator Lugar when he was chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. And I remember going to him and saying, with all the transparency, I do want you to know I'm technically a registered Democrat. And he was like, oh, wow, I'm technically a registered Republican. I'm like, okay, I get it. I appreciated that, though, that he was somebody that recognized that as well. And now that I'm in the US Senate, I find that those interactions are far too far in between.

Senator Andy Kim (16:12)

You know, I could not have asked for a better transition from you, Senator Kim. So thank you for that because I want.

Isaac Saul (16:18)

I set you up then. Yeah.

Senator Andy Kim (16:20)

So well, that service mindset at play here. One of the tools that I find very interesting when it comes to researching lawmakers and learning more about their time in office is the work from the Lugar center, which looks at and reviews scores from every lawmaker in the House and Senate and gives them a bipartisan rating or a partisanship rating. According to the Lugar center as well as GovTrack US, you have a fairly moderate but solidly left leaning background, one that indicates bipartisanship, but also some left leaning ideology, which is something you'd expect from a Democrat in New Jersey. But I'm wondering, as somebody who talks about bipartisanship, as somebody who interned staffed for a Republican senator, what are some issues that you think would cause you to vote against some of your Democratic colleagues?

Isaac Saul (17:12)

Yeah, so I have tried to be somebody that has really come in and continued with that approach that I had in my career capacity. And I also really wanted to make sure I did it in a way that was true and not what I call performative governance. Right. So I'm glad. I think the Luber center does a lot of great work and it's important to have those types of places that are pushing people towards bipartisanship. But I also found, and this is just a symptom of politics, I also see people intentionally jumping on different co sponsorships to try to increase their score and things like that. And there's a gamesmanship that happens in terms of politics and that's something that I try to guard myself from when it comes to the work. What I think is really important for me in particular is about recognizing the brokenness of our politics. I am not somebody that actually enjoys politics, at least in the way that it occupies our country now. In many ways, I think that's why I find it kind of bizarre that I've made it this far is that I'm somebody that tries to keep this at arm's length. So I do a lot when it comes to reforms, for instance, and this is a place sometimes where I can engage, engage with my own party, but sometimes it causes some problems. I think that there is a lot of agreement on issues like campaign finance reform. I hope the American people agree that we should not have this much money in our politics. I think that should be something across the political spectrum that we don't want to have these super PACs, dark money. We don't want to have single individuals be able to exert this much influence over our politics. But for instance, I probably the issue that is probably the most popular piece of legislation from the people, but not necessarily from Congress, is I introduced legislation that would ban members of Congress from owning and trading individual stocks, for instance. And this is something that's put me up against leadership in my own party that affects that the fact that I'm in this seat and I'm sure we'll talk about this in some greater length, but I had to stand up against leaders of my own party in New Jersey to call for reforms to a broken machine politics in New Jersey that was benefiting, frankly, the Democratic Party. And that's why people in my party didn't want to see reforms and changes. So that area of reform is probably the place where I kind of come in strongest and have real problems sometimes with how my party engages. And I think you see that borne on with the latest election, the sense that people don't want the status quo. People look at our politics and they're like, this is broken. This is clearly broken. And I don't think the Democratic Party has done enough to agree with that statement in a way that gives people assurance that we really understand that. And I mean we in a broader sense. But I'm certainly going to try to push that myself.

Podcast Host (20:27)

We'll be right back after this quick break.

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Senator Andy Kim (21:39)

I want to jump ahead just a little bit. I'm trying to stay more in chronological order here, walking through your resume from before your time in the house, the house to your Senate run. But just presaging your upcoming Senate term a bit is this focus that I heard in your answer on reform and saying that reforms are issues where you are prone to break with some members of your party, specifically party leadership, be it campaign finance reform or reforms about holding stocks. And as you're now entering this 100 person chamber from this larger 435 person chamber, I want to get a sense of what your priorities are. What do you think are some reforms that you want to try to bring attention to that you think there's an actual good chance of enacting during the upcoming term?

Isaac Saul (22:26)

Yeah, just in general, with the work that I'm trying to do in the U.S. senate, it kind of comes into a couple buckets. One is about addressing the high costs and the challenges that people are facing living the life that they want to live. Trying to, the way I see it is the vast, vast, vast majority of people I engage with, they're not asking for the moon, they're just trying to live a life of dignity and decency. And why I kind of start with that is the question is what is stopping people from having that kind of capacity? What is causing so much anxiety in people's lives? People refer to, when they talk to me, they often talk about just trouble breathing, sometimes that they have because there's just so much on their minds, so much worry. And it's that sense of unpredictability. Right. As someone who worked in national security, the thing I'd hate most in life is unpredictability. And when you try to unpeel, when you try to appeal that and try to figure out what's getting at this, a lot of it comes to just this sense that things aren't working well, especially our politics and our governance. For instance, when gas dropped below $3 in New Jersey, I went to people, I said, do you feel better? Do you feel like things are on a better track? And the answer was no, because who knows what's going to happen next week or next month. It's just that sense of unpredictability. So that's where the reforms are necessary, to give people a sense that there is an entity, that there are leaders, there are public servants that are trying to address that sense of anxiety, trying to give people a sense of predictability back into their lives. And that's where I hope to be able to engage. So yes, for instance, this question of do your elected leaders, do your government officials, do they work for you? Are they thinking about you, not necessarily thinking about their own personal benefit not thinking about special interests or how to benefit big corporations. I think that that's part of the anxiety. And look, in the Senate seat because of the corruption charges, right? 84% of people in New Jersey believe that their elected officials are corrupt. Like how can a democracy function with that much distrust in the system? So having a lot more transparency, ending gerrymandering, trying to bring the money out of politics, trying to do these stock trading bans or other things like that, that can give people more assurance that people are working for them, not thinking about how to enrich themselves in these jobs. Those are the types of things that I want to continue on with. I also want to try to find ways in which we can reform the branches themselves. For instance, the legislature branch. Just how it works in terms of being able to bring legislation forward. The speaker of the House has more power over the legislative branch than the President does over the executive branch. It's too much power in the hands of one person person to be able to have one person be the gatekeeper for the entire legislative agenda of America. There's ways in which we need to decentralize that kind of power in both the House in the Senate. And those are things that again, some of my colleagues don't like, especially some of the ones that have gained more seniority, including in my own party. But I think that those are the types of changes that we're absolutely going to need to see for us to have a more responsive and functioning government.

Senator Andy Kim (25:56)

I'm going to break again from my script to ask another follow up question to something that you just said, which you mentioned, that the leader of the House of Representatives has more control over the legislative branch than the President does of the executive branch and that there are reforms he can enact to change them. Can you just offer a couple.

Isaac Saul (26:13)

Well, for instance, you know, well, like any legislation, if you want to bring anything to four floor vote in the House. In the House, speak to the House. Because that, that's where I had more experience so far. Even if you had bipartisan legislation, Even if we had things like for instance in New Jersey, we've been trying to overturn the SALT tax cap for the same local tax deductions. We had bipartisan legislation. We tried to get the speaker to bring that forward and he just refused. And he can, by virtue of being the speaker, just not bring things up for a vote. And that just again just caused this enormous amount of challenge. And it's the centralization of power. But the problem is, and this is something I didn't really, See, see, until I was in Congress is who do you think are the people that can be on the track for leadership positions in Congress. I was in a tough. I was a Democrat in a district Trump won twice. So I every two years had to duke it out in big battles, millions of dollars spent. So I had to do a lot of fundraising. But fundraising for my own raise, that means I didn't have abilities to fundraise for other candidates, go to their districts and curry favor with them, and build relationships in those ways. I was in trenches. So the types of people that can rise up and gain that kind of capacity within their caucuses are often from the deepest red and the deepest blue districts. And they just have a different perspective than those of us who've been in more divided and mixed districts. I was one of only seven Democrats in the entire nation in 2020 to win a district that Trump won that year. Trump won my congressional district the same year I was on that same ballot. And that's pretty crazy that out of 220 some Democrats, only seven of us won district Trump won. And I think that that's something that changes the way that you do the job. I have a lot of respect for Hakeem Jeffries and the work that he's doing, but the Democrats Democratic Party cannot just have leadership only from New York City and California.

John Law (28:32)

Hey, everybody, this is John, executive producer of YouTube and podcast content and co host of the daily podcast. I hope you enjoyed this exclusive preview episode. We are now offering this podcast exclusively to our premium podcast members along with our ad. Free daily podcasts, Friday editions, in depth interviews, upcoming new podcast series, bonus content, and much more. If you want to receive all that and give your support to help us grow Tangle Media, please head over to tanglemedia.supercast.com and sign up for a membership. If it's not the right time for you to sign up, please don't worry. Our ad supported daily podcast isn't going in anywhere. But if it is in your ability to support by signing up for a membership, we would greatly appreciate it and we're really excited to share all of our premium offerings with you. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Mull signing off. Have a great day, y'all. Peace.

Podcast Host (29:35)

Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John John Wall. The script is edited by our managing editor, Ari Weitzman, Will K Back, Bailey Saul and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Bacopa, who is also our social media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. If you're looking for more from Tangle, Please go to readtangle.com and check out our.

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