PREVIEW: SPECIAL EDITION - Ari Weitzman interviews staff writer from The Atlantic Tyler Austin Harper about the Mellon Foundation and higher education.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Tangle – Special Edition: Ari Weitzman Interviews The Atlantic's Tyler Austin Harper on the Mellon Foundation & Higher Education
Date: March 10, 2026

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Overview:

This episode of Tangle features an in-depth conversation between host Ari Weitzman and Tyler Austin Harper, staff writer at The Atlantic, focusing on the pivotal role of the Mellon Foundation in shaping the landscape of humanities funding in higher education. The discussion examines the implications of Mellon’s outsized financial influence, the philosophical case for the humanities, and the broader stakes for American academia and society.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Influence of the Mellon Foundation

• Background: Founded in the 1960s by Andrew Mellon's children, the Mellon Foundation has grown into an $8 billion force, primarily funding the American arts and humanities.
• Shifting Focus: The most dramatic shift occurred in 2018 with the appointment of Elizabeth Alexander as president, who redirected funding towards social justice work within the humanities.
• Scale of Power: In 2024, Mellon's grants ($540 million) dwarfed the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH) ($78 million), making Mellon the most significant driver in the field.
  • Quote:

    "Mellon in the same year dispensed $540 million. So half a billion dollars—about, you know, roughly seven times more or something like that."
    – Tyler Austin Harper (06:34)

2. The Problem with a Private Monopoly on Humanities Funding

• Freedom of Inquiry at Risk: One central ideal of the humanities is the freedom to pursue diverse intellectual interests. When one funder dominates, the scope of inquiry narrows to align with that funder's values and ideology.
  • Quote:

    "Mellon went from being an organization that funded a pretty wide range of different kinds of research, teaching initiatives, etc., to funding things within a much more narrow ideological bandwidth."
    – Tyler Austin Harper (10:09)

• Public vs. Private Influence: The NEH was intentionally designed to avoid political bias—but as federal funding shrinks, private influence via Mellon fills the vacuum.
  • Quote:

    "It never occurred to the people writing that report [on the founding of the NEH] that what you actually have to worry about is private industry might step in and rule with an iron fist... that has really created a power vacuum for Mellon as a private enterprise that is expressly political to step in and fill."
    – Tyler Austin Harper (13:25)

3. Questioning the Value of the Humanities (14:47)

• Civilizational Importance: Harper contends humanities are intrinsic to civilization, shaping our understanding of concepts like intelligence, democracy, and literacy across history.
  • Quote:

    "I don't think you can have civilization in the absence of the humanities."
    – Tyler Austin Harper (16:40)

• Practical Relevance: Even in contemporary debates (e.g., artificial intelligence), foundational questions about mind, intelligence, and embodiment stem from longstanding humanities debates.

4. The Return-on-Investment Debate for Humanities Majors (19:06)

• Student/Parent Dilemma: With soaring tuition—$95,000/year at colleges like Bates—families want proof of financial payoff.
• Harper’s Advice & Economic Reality:
  • Public universities with strong humanities programs are more sensible choices.
  • Despite popular belief, many humanities grads do well professionally; philosophy majors, for instance, see strong long-term earnings.
  • The tech mantra “learn to code” overlooked that AI and automation threaten coding jobs, making humanities skills (e.g., critical thinking, writing) potentially more future-proof.
  • Quote:

    "It did not seem to occur to them... that the first jobs that would be automated are not the jobs of people like me with a humanities degree, but their jobs."
    – Tyler Austin Harper (22:18)

5. Societal Choices & the Path Forward (24:12)

• Individual vs. Structural Decision-Making: The fate of the humanities is shaped less by single actors and more by broader societal choices: where students enroll, what funders support, which policies are advanced.
• The Harpers' Reflection: The absence of governmental support has forced Mellon into an outsized role, which wasn't its intended place.
  • Paraphrased Quote:

    "Funding the humanities is not Mellon's role. It's the position that it's in now because of abdication."
    – Ari Weitzman referencing a quote from a Mellon family member (24:55)

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On Melon's Influence (06:34):
  "Mellon in the same year dispensed $540 million. So half a billion dollars—about... seven times more [than NEH]."

• On the Dangers of Private Dominance (10:09):
  "Mellon went from funding a wide range… to funding things within a much narrower ideological bandwidth."

• On the Core Purpose of Humanities (16:40):
  "I don't think you can have civilization in the absence of the humanities."

• On Value for Money and AI (22:18):
  "It did not seem to occur to them... the first jobs automated are not those of people like me with a humanities degree, but their jobs."

• On Why Mellon’s Dominance Exists (24:55):
  Paraphrased: “Funding the humanities is not Mellon's role. It's the position that it's in now because of abdication.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:54] — Tyler’s background & setting the stage
• [05:15] — Mellon’s history and current scale of influence
• [09:43] — The shift to social justice/ideological funding
• [12:20] — NEH’s founding, abdication, and the rise of Mellon's dominance
• [14:47] — The case for humanities in a STEM-focused world
• [19:06] — The student debt dilemma and value of humanities degrees
• [23:38] — The shifting labor market and humanities' unexpected resilience
• [24:12] — Societal choices and the future—what’s actually at stake and what needs to change

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

The discussion is thoughtful, skeptical, and probing—Harper balances a defense of humanistic knowledge with frank acknowledgment of economic and policy realities. Both speakers express concern over the consequences of privatized funding and question whether American society is willing to re-invest publicly in the humanities—a commitment they argue is vital for a healthy democracy and intellectual landscape.

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For listeners looking for a deep dive into who really shapes university learning, what’s at stake in the humanities debate, and why even computer scientists should read philosophy, this Tangle episode is a must-listen.

Transcript

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[Ari Weitzman]

Did I talk too much?

[John Law]

Can't I just let it go?

[Ari Weitzman]

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[Ari Weitzman]

Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where you get political news from across the spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of our take. I'm your host for today's episode, Tangle's managing editor, Ari Weitzman, and we have a guest interview with Tyler Austin, Harper Today staff writer for the Atlantic and former professor at Hamilton College. Tyler has a story in the most recent edition of the Atlantic about the Mellon Foundation, a multi billion dollar foundation that has an outsized role in the humanities at institutions of higher Lear so why should we care about this? Also, why is it happening and what do we think is going to happen next? I get to have a really thoughtful conversation answering all those questions and more with Tyler as we have a conversation that spans the bounds from why humanities matter to whether or not we should be focusing on them in the first place, all the way to what we want out of colleges and should we even be learning humanities at these universities? It's a great conversation, I think, especially on the heels of the Friday edition that Audrey Moorhead wrote about literacy rates at universities and among university students. In essence, what are the things that we really want our young people to be learning about? When we just ask who's funding humanities at our universities? The story might seem a little narrow and not that interesting. But when we stop to consider really what's at stakeholders in education, it can become pretty interesting pretty fast. I really enjoyed talking to Tyler about all of these issues and more. And I think it was a really interesting conversation. I think you guys are going to enjoy it. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Tyler Austin Harper. Okay. I'm here today with Tyler Austin Harper, a professor at Bates College and a staff writer at the Atlantic who has a piece out this month about humanities and funding across the United States. So, Tyler, thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah, absolutely. And I will note I actually have. I left the Bates College a couple months back. So I am officially just a writer at the Atlantic now.

[Ari Weitzman]

Oh yeah, Just a lowly writer at the Atlantic.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Well, yeah, exactly.

[Ari Weitzman]

You still up in Maine then or you England region?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

No, no, I haven't left the Great White North. It has its hooks in me, so now I'm staying put.

[Ari Weitzman]

Well, I've been very interested to talk to you about higher ed in general for a long time been following your work at the Atlantic. You're one of my favorite writers to follow there. We have a strangely similar background in that we're both from western Pennsylvania. I know you're from central Pennsylvania, but I consider central Pennsylvania to be part of Western Pennsylvania and move to northern New England. Have a bit more of an academic background than I do. But I think having that shared worldview is really interesting. It's interesting to me also to read somebody write about humanities in one article and then deep sea fishing in another. So I definitely encourage people to check out your work, but.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Oh, thank you.

[Ari Weitzman]

Today we're talking about not fishing, but humanity. So story basically about the impact of one organization, the Mellon foundation, and how it became to be this big monolith in higher ed. So maybe you can start by just walking us through that background. How did Mellon become this big name and what is its influence actually like today?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah, Mellon has long been a influential nonprofit in the humanities funding space. The organization was founded in the 1960s by the children of Andrew Mellon, who was a sort of famous robber baron. And it's always been a sort of liberal leaning institution that funds American arts and letters. And it's gone through different sort of changes over the course of its career. But certainly the most abrupt Shift came in 2018 when the nonprofit hired Elizabeth Alexander, a poet who was then a professor at Yale, to lead their organization. And one of the first things she does, and it's worth noting that Mellon is fabulously wealthy today. Their endowment sits at $8 billion. So this is an institution with a lot of economic firepower behind it. And her first order of business, when she came on board, she said that Mellon would be focusing their grant making on social justice work within the humanities. And so since 2020, they have basically only funded humanities research related to social justice. And given that they are by an order of magnitude the largest funder of the humanities in the United States, larger even than the federal government, that impact of that, that changed mission has been really decisive.

[Ari Weitzman]

And not just only a little bit larger than the federal government, but seemingly orders of magnitude larger than the federal government.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah. So like in 2024, just to give you an example, the National Endowment for the Humanities, which is the federal agency, they dispensed $78 million in direct grants that year. Mellon in the same year dispensed 540 million. So half a billion dollars, about, you know, roughly seven times more or something like that. So,

[Isaac Saul]

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[Ari Weitzman]

And the impact for this, the question of, okay, so why does that matter? Is just that this is one organization with its own set of priorities. And now that it has more of a say over what the humanities are and how it's funded, then it's shaping in a very real way the slant that you might expect to be coming from universities towards humanities education. More or less, right?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah. I think we tend to think of one of the ideals of knowledge production, intellectual work in general, but I think the humanities in particular is just freedom of inquiry, right? The freedom to pursue your intellectual interests, as they call you. And why this change in Mellon has been so decisive is that Mellon went from being an organization that funded a pretty wide range of different kinds of research, teaching initiatives, et cetera, to funding things within a much more narrow ideological bandwidth. And so when you have really one giant funder that dwarfs all of the other funders, they have quite a lot of power to determine the trajectory of the humanities in the United States. And they certainly have. And so one thing I'm at pains to say in the article is, however you feel about social justice, however you feel about progressivism and progressive culture, that's sort of beside the point. The real question is, should a private nonprofit have the power to influence the humanities in the United States to the degree that Mellon does? And especially considering that Mellon is not just dispensing funds to private institutions, but also has a lot of power over public institutions as well.

[Ari Weitzman]

Well, let's go there first about why or should a private organization have that kind of sway? Because something that strikes me right away when I'm thinking about this is this seems like you could draw a direct line to the Mellon Foundation's influence from a sort of centrist or conservative backlash against higher education, saying anytime that there's NEH funding comes up, it's very popular to say, well, we don't really need that, so you can trim that as fat from the budget. And to have a push against institutions of learning getting their endowments furthered, endowments that may go towards humanities once they're given and have that budget trimmed and that fat trimmed, because you're supporting something that has this classically somewhat center left liberal bias. But it seems like when you do that, that's sort of creating this opening for an organization like Melon that has its own ideology to become the sole player in this game. So is that kind of what's happened here?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing I dig into the article that I think and in the article that I think is worth mentioning here. The National Endowment for the Humanities was founded in the wake of a kind of bombshell report in the 1960s about the state of humanities education in the United States. And that report emphasized or advocated the creation of a federally funded agency that would do grant making in the humanities to help support humanities education in the United States. Specifically, that commission recommended that it was really important that there be a broad range of different kind of funders, not just the government, because they were worried that if the government had a monopoly on humanities grant making, then the government could push the humanities in the direction of some political agenda that was favorable to the government. And so when the NEH was funded, it tried to be expressly non political. And in fact, for most of its history, and I think still today, they basically have language where they really don't like to fund projects that could be perceived as having a kind of political slant. They try to focus more on pure research. Right. And I think the fact that in the 1960s, in the middle of the Cold War, the concern was government, government tyranny and not private tyranny is really sort of. Yeah, collectivism, Exactly. It speaks to the moment. Right. It never occurred to the people writing that report that what you actually have to worry about is private industry might step in and rule with an iron fist. And so that's kind of what happened with Mellon. And as the NEH has retreated, its budget is now a fraction of what it was 20, 30 years ago. That has really created a power vacuum for Mellon as a private enterprise that is expressly political to step in and fill.

[Ari Weitzman]

Okay, so now I'm going to take us a little bit into the deep end here. Just no waiting, just jumping straight in. So if I'm somebody who's concerned about an ideological bent in funding of the humanities, might I, instead of saying, okay, well then I have to fund stuff too. I have to contribute to some other humanities fund. Say, you know what, let's go all the way with it. Why do we need humanities today? Why not just let the Mellon foundation struggle under the weight of its expanded mandate and let the entire funding for humanities go stems so much more important in the 21st century? Why do we need this anymore at all? Like, what's the point of a humanities education in 2026?

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Well, I would argue that the humanities and humanistic inquiry have been part of our species project from time immemorial and certainly as long as we've had the written word. But even if that argument doesn't persuade you that the humanities have a kind of intrinsic worth, and I should preface this by saying one of the cases I kind of make in the piece and that I've made in other writing, is that I don't think we should think of scholarly knowledge purely in utilitarian terms of how can this impact policy? Or what is this good for? Or how does this serve a political agenda in the case of Mellon? But if I wanted to make a utilitarian case, I mean, even if you take something like the question of artificial intelligence, right, and AI, the question of what is intelligence is one that philosophers have debated for millennia. The arguments they make are still very relevant to questions we're asking right now about chatbots, about large language models, about whether you can forms of intelligence that aren't embodied, or whether being embodied and interacting with a physical world is crucial to what it is to be intelligent in a human like way. Those are questions the humanities have asked from time immemorial. And I think one of the reasons we have many of the problems we do, particularly in tech at this moment, is just a dearth of Humanistic education and just a dearth of people who are, you know, fluent in these conversations that can help inform how we think about science, how we think about technology. Again, I, I am disposed to make non utilitarian cases, but to those people who reflexively are like, why should we care about this? You know, one of the questions getting back to the AI thing right now is like I said, can you have intelligence in the absence of a body, right. That is not interacting with the world? Now there are some people in AI who are coming around to the idea that actually maybe mind isn't just computation, but maybe there's other material stuff going on that's really important that we can't just lop off in the form of an algorithm, you know, and so those qu. If those folks had read some of the humanities and some philosophy of mind, they, they might have come to these kind of conclusions earlier. And so I think it's important. I don't think you can have civilization in the absence of the humanities. I would add that I don't think, you know, everything we think of, everything we think of as coextensive with liberal democracy has come in a time of mass literacy when you had a reading public. And I think it's a pretty big gamble to wager that we can still have a functional civilization built on mass literacy with a public that is increasingly illiterate. That seems like a pretty, pretty big wager.

[Isaac Saul]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

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[Ari Weitzman]

So that's a very stakes laden argument about these values are pretty civilizational. And that goes deeper than just saying how am I going to get my dollar back after I graduate. But it does beg the question though of if I'm. Let's just say I'm a student here and we can just narrow the scope for a second before we broaden it again and talk about how we value these things writ large as a society with our funding. But if I'm a student going into college, universities cost so much these days. It was expensive even when I was going to school. It cost like $40,000 for one year of undergraduate univers, undergraduate education, even without any help. And now, I mean, those sticker prices are going up like that's the median price for a general education that you might get these days.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

When I left bates, it was 95k.

[Ari Weitzman]

I believe that's absurd. That's crazy. So if I'm an undergraduate or a parent of an undergraduate going to a liberal arts institution like Bates, where I can be assured that I'm going to have my mind provoked and challenged and I can grow, I also want to be assured that I'm getting an investment return when I graduate because that's a pretty considerable sum. So isn't it kind of fair to say, yes, I understand that these values are civilizational, saying I have to be literate, I have to be able to be able to ask and answer large questions, but I also need to have hard skills that I can bring with me when I graduate. And when I'm thinking like that, where's the room for me to say I'm going to actually take a couple more classes in humanities, I'm going to be one of those statistics that proves the need to have these programs when I know I'm really worried about what I'm going to be paying off in four years after I graduate.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Well, the first thing I would say is if I were giving young people advice, I would advise them to go to an affordable public university that has a strong humanities program. If they're interested in humanities and not pay an arm and a leg for tuition to go to one of these campuses that is essentially a glorified Disneyland.

[Ari Weitzman]

Now that you're free of bait, you have to speak completely unfettered about your opinion.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Oh, I said that kind of thing when I was there. But if you've made the mistake of Going to one of these institutions that are going to charge you $95,000 for an education. Look, I understand that that is an acute question. On the one hand, I think people like me want to say, well, that's a kind of vulgar question, right? How can you put a price on being educated and being cultured? But the reality is when a degree costs $95,000 a year, there's clearly the return on investment question. The first thing I would say is I think that question has been overblown for a while. College graduates still do quite well, irrespective of whatever they major in. Most people don't go into fields that they major in. And then if you look at, there are a number of humanities fields where actually graduates end up doing quite well. I mean, the example that gets thrown around most frequently is philosophy, which is actually one of the more high paying majors in the long run. So I would say that it's partly a myth, but there's some degree of truth to it. Obviously most humanities majors are not making as much as an econ major or what have you. But setting that aside, I think in the moment we are in in particular, but I think we are watching computer science graduates really struggle to find jobs. We were watching STEM graduates, because of the uncertainty around AI, struggle to find jobs. And actually, if you look at recent data, humanities fields have been performing pretty well because they, ironically, the mantra of tech crowd, right, was learn to code, right? The future was we were all going to be computer plumbers, everyone's going to learn to code, and we will have, you know, we'll all make gobs of money. And it did not seem to occur to them when they were, you know, creating and imagining large language models in AI, that the first jobs that would be automated are not the jobs of people like me with a humanities degree, but their jobs, right? And so I would say at this moment in particular, there is a very good case for thinking about majoring in philosophy or majoring in literature because as people become more and more reliant on AI, there is going to be a premium for people who have knowledge and writing skills and who actually have those kind of, those kind of talents without the aid of just constantly relying on ChatGPT. So I think there's always been a solid case for the humanities, but I think in this particular moment where the STEM fields are a bit shaky economically, I think there's an even stronger case.

[Ari Weitzman]

You know, I've made similar arguments too. Again, putting my cards on the table completely here is I graduated with a liberal arts degree. And I was able to become a successful professional by taking a coding bootcamp and learning code in the window for which that was doable. Yeah, sure, I dropped out now to a point where here I am having a conversation with another person about the value of humanities from purchase, where we're able to get to those places now. But for people coming out of undergraduate. Undergraduates, those opportunities are a little bit tougher to grab right now.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

100%. Yeah.

[Ari Weitzman]

So just appreciating that makes it feel like, you know, we're. This is all a collection of individual decisions that we're talking about. Like an. An individual decision for what they want to get a degree in, for where they're going to go to school, an individual decision for what they're going to invest in for a grant, who we're going to vote for in terms of how things get funded. But broadly now, broadening that scope back again, what is the way that we actually move forward here if there's not. If it's something that I appreciated you writing in this article was a quote from a member of the. From another person whose last name was Harper, who was a member of the Mellon Institution. Yeah, yeah, he said that this wasn't melons. I'm paraphrasing here, but funding the humanities is not Mellon's role. It's the position that it's in now because of abdication. So how do we actually level up now and offer more funding towards the humanities if it's something that's going to be so vitally important for sustaining illiterate civilization in the future?

[John Law]

Hey everybody, this is John, executive producer for Tangle. We hope you enjoyed this preview of our latest episode. If you are not currently a newsletter subscriber or a premium podcast subscriber and you are enjoying this content content and would like to finish it, you can go to readtangle.com and sign up for a newsletter subscription or you can sign up for a podcast subscription or a bundled subscription, which gets you both the podcast and the newsletter and unlocks the rest of this episode as well as ad free daily podcasts, more Friday editions, Sunday editions, bonus content, interviews, and so much more. Most importantly, we just want to say thank you so much for your support. We're working hard to to bring you much more content and more offerings. So stay tuned. I will join you again for the daily podcast. For the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'.

[Ari Weitzman]

All.

[Tyler Austin Harper]

Peace.

[Isaac Saul]

Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Law. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate editors Audrey Moorhead, Lindsey Knuth and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our [e-mail].

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[Tyler Austin Harper]

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