PREVIEW: SPECIAL EDITION - Isaac interviews author Tim Urban from Wait But Why.

Summary

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Tangle Podcast: Isaac Interviews Tim Urban (Wait But Why) – Special Edition Preview

Host: Isaac Saul
Guest: Tim Urban, author of Wait But Why and What's Our Problem? A Self-Help Book for Societies
Date: June 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special edition of Tangle features host Isaac Saul in conversation with Tim Urban, the mind behind the popular blog Wait But Why and author of What's Our Problem?. The episode explores Tim's unconventional entry into writing and visual storytelling, his philosophy on audience and communication, and his novel framework for understanding America's political culture—moving beyond the typical left/right binary to focus on "high rung" vs. "low rung" thinking. The conversation offers reflections on creativity, polarization, and the future of public discourse.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Why Tim Urban?

• Isaac Saul (01:50): Praises Tim Urban as someone with a rare understanding of America's political and social challenges, especially regarding how "low rung" thinking is harming national discourse.
  • “Tim does an incredible job of explaining the ways in which the right and left divide don't actually capture what's happening in our country... the opportunity for high rung kind of thinking to open up a new frontier of politics and governance...”
• Saul shares enthusiasm for Urban’s blend of writing and illustration, and previews the episode’s scope: Urban’s origins, methods, and ideas for political healing.

2. Tim Urban’s Creative Origins

• Tim Urban (04:19): Shares how procrastination led him to blogging while he was supposed to be writing movie scores and tutoring in LA.
  • “Most things that I do really... are born out of some form of procrastination. I was, I was fully procrastinating at the age of like 23 from doing the things I was supposed to be working on.” [04:19]
• Started casual blogging for years, eventually experimenting with drawing tablets meant for tutoring. Learning through trial and error, he discovered the power of stick figure illustrations to clarify concepts.
• His breakthrough came by deeply investing time into each post, aiming not just for casual updates but substantive pieces capable of going viral.
• Urban describes a turning point: realizing he could write about anything (AI, aliens, psychology) as long as he followed his curiosity, and his audience would follow.

3. Audience Philosophy & Reaching “Clones of Myself”

• Isaac Saul (07:25): Notes the unique way Urban’s illustrations & explanations resonate with readers across political divides.
• Tim Urban (07:59): Explains he imagines his audience as a stadium full of clones of himself—people who share his humor, curiosity, and approach to learning.
  • “If one out of a thousand of those people are just really similar to me... that's an 8 million person potential audience out there...”
  • “I always picture myself writing for like a stadium full of photocopies of me, just clones.” [07:59]
• Stresses that he creates primarily for himself, trusting that others will connect authentically rather than aiming to appease political camps.
• Urban acknowledges that some people see him as “both sides-ing” or being too intellectual about charged topics, but he’s committed to honesty with his perspective.

4. Moving Beyond the Left/Right Binary – The “High Rung/Low Rung” Framework

• Isaac Saul (12:30): Introduces Urban’s book, What's Our Problem?, praising its unique diagnostic power for modern polarization.
  • “It is in my mind one of the more formative books I’ve read that really cemented... a lot of the things I’ve struggled to describe about this present moment in American society and especially our political culture.”
• Saul invites Urban to explain his signature “laddered” approach that moves the conversation away from left/right, toward quality of reasoning (“high rung” vs “low rung”).
  • “One of the things that you talk about as a framework in that book for understanding politics in this moment is to kind of abandon the left right binary... and instead think about this... high rung, low rung understanding of the way people approach politics and think.” [12:30]
• Note: The episode preview cuts off before Urban answers, but this segment sets up his core philosophical pivot.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tim Urban, on procrastination-led creativity:
  “Most endeavors for me... are born out of some form of procrastination.” [04:19]

• Tim Urban, on finding his style:
  “By the end of that early blog, I had found my voice and I had discovered stick drawings.”

• Tim Urban, on audience:
  “I always picture myself writing for like a stadium full of photocopies of me, just clones.” [07:59]

• Tim Urban, on criticism from the ideologically rigid:
  “I know there’s a lot of really hardcore... left or right people... who probably will find my way I think like wishy-washy... but what I’ve done all along is just be like I’m going to be me.”

• Isaac Saul, on Urban’s framework:
  “One of the things that you talk about as a framework... is to kind of abandon the left right binary... and instead think about this... high rung, low rung understanding...” [12:30]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:50: Isaac’s introduction and framing of Tim Urban’s work
• 03:24 - 04:19: Saul invites Urban to share his creative origins
• 04:19 - 07:25: Urban describes his accidental journey into writing/illustration and the process of building an audience through authentic curiosity
• 07:59: Urban discusses his philosophy of writing “for clones of myself” and reaching a likeminded global niche
• 12:30: Introduction of Urban’s left/right vs. high rung/low rung political thinking (Urban’s response cut for preview)

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Tone & Style

The conversation is informal, engaging, and intellectually curious—matching the signature tone of both Wait But Why and Tangle. Urban is self-effacing, candid about his creative process, and passionate about deep, nuanced thinking. Saul is a genuine fan, framing questions thoughtfully and sharing personal resonance.

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Summary

This preview episode offers an insightful look into the mind and process of Tim Urban—from his accidental start in blogging to his choice of stick figure illustrations and unique approach to politics. Urban’s commitment to clarity, humor, and authenticity shines through, setting up a deeper dive (in the full episode) into his “high rung/low rung” theory—a powerful, non-partisan lens for diagnosing the state of modern discourse. The episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in creativity, political polarization, and the future of nuanced conversation.

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Transcript

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[Isaac Saul]

There are very few people in the modern political space who I feel like have a perfect pulse on what ails our country and the ways we can fix it. One of those people in my mind is Tim Urban. He's the author of the very popular blog Wait, but why? And recently wrote a book called what's Our Problem? A Self Help Book for Societies. In his book, Tim does an incredible job of explaining the ways in which the right and left divide don't actually capture what's happening in our country. And in a cohesive way, he talks about the different high rung and low rung thinking that exists in modern politics and how this kind of thinking on the low rung side is infecting and destroying so much. And the opportunity for the high rung kind of thinking to open up a new frontier of politics and governance in our country. So I was thrilled when Tim accepted an invitation to come on the show and talk to me about his book, his blog, how he started writing and illustrating together, which is one of his hallmarks, and what he sees as the solutions to the incredible division and the unbelievably discouraging amount of low rung thinking that we have in American politics today. So I'm thrilled to have Tim on the Tangle Podcast. Tim Urban, welcome to the Tangle Podcast. Thanks for being here.

[Tim Urban]

Yes, thank you for having me.

[Isaac Saul]

I have a million different places I want to start. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that you've written about politics and fatherhood and things that have kind of hit home for me that I'm interested in kind of diving into. But I know that a lot of our audience are fans of your work and your blog. Wait, but why? Which has this. I think from the outside looking in, seems like a pretty intense culture following. I am certainly one of the fans who basically reads all the stuff you put up there. I'd love to just hear a little bit about how you got into this work, how you started writing. Why the pairing of illustrations with your writing, which has become sort of this very key thing about your work that everybody globs onto and talks about. I'm interested to just hear a little bit about your process and how this came to be.

[Tim Urban]

Well, it started really. I mean, most things, most endeavors for me, most things that I do really, you know, are born out of some form of procrastination. And I was, I was fully procrastinating at the age of like 23 from doing the things I was supposed to be working on. I was out in LA to write movie scores. I was tutoring on the side. And then I started a kind of a tutoring company. And these were like the things that was work. So then of course I started doing this other thing which was blogging, just casual blogging. And I did that for like six years. And I wrote like 300 blog posts on this not very big blog, but it had a little tiny following. And towards the end of that process, one of the things we were doing for our tutoring company was tutoring students abroad. And we had these, you know, like over, like virtual and then for students who wanted to go to college in the US that was like a niche we found. So we had all these drawing tablets because the tutors would have to draw, you know, on like a virtual whiteboard. And I Kind of thought, as I'm doing a blog post, like, but let me. I have an idea. Like, but I was, like, daunted. I was like, how do I get a picture? I was like, first of all, if I plug that in, like, to my computer, where is it? Where is the. I don't like how to get the. Then I draw. Where does it go? Like, where? So I, like, I truly had no idea. And I never really. I needed, like, a pro. I need, like, some kind of actual dedicated software for it. So I download Pixelmator. I was like, okay, now I can. I can draw. Okay. So then I was like, now how do I get this drawing onto the Internet? Like, this is pretty. You know, I didn't know these things, so figured that out. And people liked that post. It had like, four or five comics. And so I was like, okay, this is fun. Like, I want to do more of this. So then I. It was just like a new creative one. So then by the end of that early blog, I was, like, kind of had found my voice and I had discovered stick drawings. And so I kind of had figured out, like, what I like to do. But the problem was I was spending, like, five hours a week on it. And I was like, you know, what If I spent 60 hours a week on this? And what would happen? And that was kind of the question that led to the beginning of, wait, but why? And then I said, okay, so these are not going to be, like, little quick posts about my day. Like, let me write something good. Let's just make sure to go viral. Like, how do you go viral online? You know? And so the first few posts were really geared towards that. And then once there was an audience, I just was like, okay, what do I really want to actually do? And what was nice was that it turns out that the audience I had collected, like, actually really was interested in, like, the things I really was interested in. So I would, like, write about aliens thinking, like, this isn't quite what I've been doing. They might be like, what are you doing? But they were like, yes, more of this. I was like, great. And so from there, it just kind of. Just kind of followed my interest. Whether it's like, you know, I don't know, some psychological phenomenon or relationships or AI or, you know, SpaceX, whatever it is. Like. And so that's. And then, you know, that's where we are.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, there's something about the way it works together that it does something for my brain where I feel like it's easier to understand the concepts you're putting out, you've clearly struck on something. I'm interested as somebody who's writing for, I think, a very politically eclectic and diverse audience, which is increasingly rare these days. Who do you think your audience is? What kinds of people are you writing for now this far along in your journey with this giant audience that you have?

[Tim Urban]

So the way I've always thought about it is that there are 8 billion people. It's like, it's a lot of people. And like, if one out of a thousand of those people are just really similar to me in terms of their sense of humor, their interests, what they're curious about, what they're not curious about, how they like to have something explained to them and whatever else. And that's. If there's one in a thousand people, that's an 8 million person potential audience out there of people who are really just they. And so when you say I just really like, you know, the, you know, the visual learning or whatever, the way that the drawings go with the thing I like, I mean, that's probably not a coincidence. Like you. Have you started reading the blog? Cause you're one of the, you know, I don't know if you're one of the. One of the thou. But you're like, you know, you're one of the categories of people who clicks with the way I like to think, you know. And so I do the visuals. Cause that's what I like. So basically I always picture myself writing for like a stadium full of photocopies of me, just clones and I. And except they're me. They haven't done any of the research I just did on this or they haven't done the deep thinking I just did on this topic. And they haven't put in the work to actually make this graphic or whatever. So what would I love someone to send me? I'm like, well, that would be cool if I could just figure out how many, you know, how big a building you'd need to fit all humans in it. Like, I would love if someone just sent me that post with like a full breakdown of it. So I'm like, I'll just do it because. And so that makes it more fun for me. But it also just. And so the same thing when it comes to like, you know, then we get to more touchy subjects with politics and I start writing about that stuff. And I kind of just kept the same philosophy. I'm like, look, I know there's a lot of really, you know, hardcore kind of left or right people or whatever. Libertarians out there who probably will find my the way I think like wishy washy or you know, that I'm doing both sides ism or that I'm, you know, intellectualizing something that, you know, whatever it is like I'm sure and that's fine. But like what I've done all along is just be like I'm going to be me. And I bet a lot of other people happen to be thinking a lot of the same stuff. And that's true.

[Isaac Saul]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

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[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, it's a nice transition to your book which you published in 2023 that I want to talk about. It's titled what's Our Problem? And it is in my mind one of the more formative books I've read that really cemented and put into words a lot of the things I've struggled to describe about this present moment in American society and especially our political culture. And one of the things that you talk about as a framework in that book for understanding politics in this moment is to kind of abandon the left right binary, the left right thinking, and to instead think about this, you know, this sort of laddered, high rung, low rung understanding of the way people approach politics and think. I'm wondering if maybe, just briefly, you could start by kind of explaining that framework that you lay out in the book for our audience and for folks who maybe haven't read it.

[John Law]

Hey everybody, this is John, Executive Producer for Tangle. We hope you enjoyed this preview of of our latest episode. If you are not currently a newsletter subscriber or a premium podcast subscriber and you are enjoying this content and would like to finish it, you can go to readtangle.com and sign up for a newsletter subscription. Or you can sign up for a podcast subscription or a bundled subscription which gets you both the podcast and the newsletter and unlocks the rest of this episode as well as ad free daily podcasts, more Friday editions, Sunday editions, bonus content, interviews, and so much more. Most importantly, we just want to say thank you so much for your support. We're working hard to bring you much more content and more offerings. So stay tuned. I will join you again for the daily podcast. For the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'. All. Peace.

[Isaac Saul]

Our Executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul and our Executive producer is John Law. Today's episode lead was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kbach and Associate editors Audrey Moorhead, Lindsey Knuth and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our [e-mail].

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