PREVIEW: SPECIAL EDITION - Jeffrey Epstein Part 2 - Isaac interviews journalist Tara Palmeri

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Tangle – SPECIAL EDITION: Jeffrey Epstein Part 2

Host: Isaac Saul
Guest: Tara Palmeri (Journalist and Investigative Reporter)
Date: March 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special edition is the second part of a deep dive into the Jeffrey Epstein story, focusing on investigative journalism and myth-busting around Epstein’s criminal activities and public perceptions. Host Isaac Saul interviews Tara Palmeri, a journalist widely recognized for her reporting on the Epstein saga, to provide a fact-based, nuanced understanding of Epstein's crimes, the narratives developing around them, and the stories of the survivors. The conversation also tackles the shifting online discourse that attempts to muddy established facts about the gravity and nature of Epstein’s offenses.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Framing the Epstein Story

[01:48 – 03:00]

• Tara Palmeri outlines her approach: Epstein’s story is not just about one crime but a massive pattern of abuse enabled by power and connections.
• Isaac Saul positions Palmeri as a foremost journalist on this topic, mentioning overlap and debate with other prominent reporters like Michael Tracy.

Notable Quote:

• “He basically constructed a pyramid scheme out of a local high school outside of Palm Beach… girls as young as 13, some with braces on their teeth like Courtney Wilde… showed up at his doorstep to give him a 'massage', but many of them were raped.” — Tara Palmeri [03:00]

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2. Epstein’s Criminal Pattern and Modus Operandi

[03:00 – 07:44]

• Palmeri details the mechanics of Epstein’s recruitment and sexual abuse pyramid, primarily targeting disadvantaged high school girls.
• The “manosphere” online is reframing the case, questioning whether teens are “children,” which Palmeri forcefully rejects as “a distraction from his crimes.”
• Epstein exerted strict control over victims, dictating diet and appearance to maintain a “childlike” look:
  • “He wanted them to be flat-chested, he did not want girls with curves. He wanted them as young as he could get them.” — Tara Palmeri [04:59]
• The shocking leniency of Epstein’s original plea deal (13 months in county jail) despite substantial evidence and an 80-page prosecution memo that suggested a 20+ year sentence.

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3. Possible Government Connections and Ongoing Mysteries

[05:54 – 06:49]

• Palmeri raises significant, unresolved questions about Epstein’s possible ties to U.S. and foreign intelligence agencies.
  • Reference to “Glomar response” from agencies: “We can neither confirm nor deny” any relationship due to classified information.
• “Jeffrey Epstein has long been an informant for the government… I do not believe that he was only a government informant for the United States. I think he likely also advised other governments as well.” — Tara Palmeri [06:41]
• Suggestion that the vast majority of evidence (e.g., 40 terabytes of video and Polaroid photographs) remains hidden within FBI archives, with only a fraction released.

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4. Challenging Revisionist Narratives & Survivor Experience

[11:05 – 15:08]

• Isaac brings up the trend (and Michael Tracy’s argument) of dividing accusers into categories—some “older” survivors allegedly seeking money, some “true victims.”
• Palmeri and Isaac push back, refusing to “delineate” worth among victims:
  • “Non-consensual sex, regardless of your age, is considered rape and a crime. So I think that's what they want… for us to delineate whether someone being raped at 23 or 14—if one crime is worse than the other. And if Jeffrey Epstein deserves a lighter sentence, or we should be talking about those things differently, is a little bit gross, frankly, in my opinion.” — Tara Palmeri [13:06]
• Details grim survivor stories:
  • Courtney Wilde, abused at 13, suffered lifelong repercussions and even spent more time incarcerated for minor crimes than Epstein did for his conviction.
  • Survivors often remain silent due to shame and trauma, leading to heavy underreporting of such crimes.

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5. On the Scale of Abuse & Evidence

[19:09 – 21:21]

• Palmeri points out the FBI’s own acknowledgment of “as many as a thousand victims,” with 98% of collected documentation still unreleased.
• Emphasizes: “So many of these girls were in high school and some were younger… How many of these women have to go on TV for you to see their face, for you to know their stories?” — Tara Palmeri [19:51]
• Recounts a survivor sobbing at the table when sharing her story for the first time—demonstrating the deep, lifelong impact of these crimes.

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6. Addressing Attacks on Survivor Credibility (Virginia Giuffre)

[21:21 – 23:04]

• Virginia Giuffre is credited for exposing Prince Andrew’s involvement. Despite a decade of being maligned, “she’s been proven right.”
• Publishers reportedly have not told the full extent of her story due to its “dark and grim” content.
• “We would know nothing about Prince Andrew and his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein today if not for Virginia Giuffre.” — Tara Palmeri [22:21]
• The media’s willingness to attack or minimize survivors is a persistent theme.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “[Jeffrey Epstein] constructed a pyramid scheme out of a local high school… girls as young as 13… showed up at his doorstep to give him a ‘massage,’ but many of them were raped.” — Tara Palmeri [03:00]
• “He wanted them to be flat-chested, he did not want girls with curves. He wanted them as young as he could get them.” — Tara Palmeri [04:59]
• “Jeffrey Epstein has long been an informant for the government… not just for the United States but likely other governments as well.” — Tara Palmeri [06:41]
• “Non-consensual sex, regardless of your age, is considered rape and a crime.” — Tara Palmeri [13:17]
• “As many as a thousand victims… the FBI… won’t even give us 98% of the documents, and they will acknowledge that.” — Tara Palmeri [19:19]
• “We would know nothing about Prince Andrew… if not for Virginia Giuffre.” — Tara Palmeri [22:21]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:22] — Episode setup and Tara Palmeri introduction
• [03:00] — 30,000-foot overview of Epstein’s crimes
• [05:33] — Details of prosecution, government response, and possible intelligence involvement
• [11:05] — Division among accusers and debate with Michael Tracy’s perspective
• [13:06] — Survivor stories, challenge of dividing "types" of abuse, and trauma
• [19:09] — FBI’s acknowledgment of victim count and withheld files
• [21:21] — Virginia Giuffre’s story and handling of attacks on survivor credibility

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Tone and Takeaways

• The conversation is direct, evidence-based, and compassionate toward survivors.
• Palmeri is firm in rejecting victim-blaming or the reframing of Epstein's crimes as less severe.
• There is strong skepticism toward revisionist narratives and an insistence on keeping attention on the real scale and gravity of the abuse perpetrated.
• The interview highlights the complexities and continued coverups surrounding the Epstein saga, as well as the human cost to survivors.

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For listeners and readers seeking clarity on the real facts of the Epstein story amidst a swirl of online rumors and revisionism, this episode is an unflinching reset—insisting on the importance of survivor voices and the persisting need for accountability.

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Transcript

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[Isaac Saul]

Part two of this Mega Epstein episode which you're about to hear is Tara Palmeri. I encourage you if you did not watch Part one with Michael Tracy to go watch Part one first and then come and listen to Tara Paul Mary in Part two. The episodes are meant to be watched together. I hope you guys enjoy. Tara Paul Mary, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.

[Tara Palmeri]

Of course. Thanks for having me. Isaac. It's great to be reunited after the newsletter conference.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, exactly. We've had some chance to hang out a little backstage at some media stuff before, but first time getting you on the show, so I'm really excited for it. All right, I want to start with some of your reporting and your perspective and framework for approaching the Jeffrey Epstein story. This has obviously been something that's been dominating the news. My audience has been super interested in this. You were one of the top most requested people that my audience wanted me to bring on, so I really appreciate you sitting down with me. I know, yeah, you, Julie K. Brown, Ro Khanna. Like some people have been, I think really all over this story. You were one of the names that came up consistently so I'm thrilled to be doing this. I think to start, it'd be helpful maybe if you could just give us the 30,000 foot lay of the land view on Jeffrey Epstein, who he was, what he was convicted of and what crimes you think he's been credibly accused of that you think there is enough evidence to substantiate. You either want to see more of it or, or you're sort of pulling at the threads of particular angles of the story because you think there's something there just to give our audience a framework for how you think about him and what he did.

[Tara Palmeri]

Okay, so here are the facts. Jeffrey Epstein was arrested, indicted in 2008 on charges of procuring a minor for prostitution. A singular minor, although we know that there were many of them. He basically constructed a. Not basically, he constructed a pyramid scheme out of a local high school outside of Palm beach in a town that was not as wealthy as Palm Beach. And he used these girls who came from disadvantaged backgrounds. I'm talking about high school girls as young as 13, some with braces on their teeth like Courtney Wilde. And they showed up at his doorstep to give him a quote unquote massage. But many of them were raped, they were sexual massages. And they would get $200 to give them massage and $200 to bring a friend. As you can hear, if you take the time to listen to any of the early interviews that the detective, Joseph Ricare, who's sadly no longer alive and did so much of the important work on this conducted, these girls were really young. They called his penis a wee wee. They were high school girls. And that is the case that he was actually indicted and spent some time, 13 months in a county jail for on house arrest with the ability to then actually continue assaulting women during that time. And so I say this to start the conversation because I hear the narrative changing online, especially among the manosphere on X, they are starting to have conversations about what is pedophilia? Is a girl who's 15 or 16 considered a child? Should we consider that behavior that he specifically sought out girls who were young?

[Michael Tracy]

He wanted girls who looked young.

[Tara Palmeri]

In fact, I was told by survivors

[Michael Tracy]

that they were told they the ones

[Tara Palmeri]

that were literally under his control, traveling with him, that he controlled their diets, he wanted them to be flat chested, he did not want girls with curves.

[Michael Tracy]

He wanted them to look like children.

[Tara Palmeri]

He wanted them as young as he could get them. And I think it's really worth everyone remembering that this started in a high school and that the debate over what

[Michael Tracy]

is pedophilia is a distraction and it

[Tara Palmeri]

takes away from his crimes. And

[Michael Tracy]

you know, the prosecutor in Florida

[Tara Palmeri]

who worked under the U.S. attorney, Alex Acosta, put together a prosecution memo, more than 80 pages. She believed that this man should spend more than 20 years in prison. And he had 13 months because of all of his connections, his lawyers. And as we're seeing through the Epstein files, through a freedom of information request

[Michael Tracy]

that was filed by his own attorneys to the NSA and the CIA, he was asking for proof of affiliation with those agencies. Now, the agencies responded with a glomar response, meaning we can neither confirm nor

[Tara Palmeri]

deny it because it would impact classified sources. Information reveal how we obtain information.

[Michael Tracy]

So it was neither a confirm or deny.

[Tara Palmeri]

Jeffrey Epstein has long been an informant for the government, going back to the Financial Tower scandal that he was involved in with Stephen Hoffenberg, his partner at Financial Towers. It was the biggest Ponzi scheme in the world at $300 million. Stephen Hoffenberg died in prison. Epstein did not spend zero time in prison for that.

[Michael Tracy]

So I have come to believe through

[Tara Palmeri]

my reporting that Jeffrey Epstein was a government informant.

[Michael Tracy]

I do not believe that he was

[Tara Palmeri]

only a government informant from the United States.

[Michael Tracy]

I think he likely also advised other

[Tara Palmeri]

governments as well, see him as a sort of hyper fixer type of man who travels in the kind of circles that picks up the type of information that could be valuable to various governments and high net worth people. So that is all to say that the narrative that is shifting, that suggests that Jeffrey Epstein didn't commit any crimes. These girls were all prostitutes. It is disturbing. And anyone who knew Jeffrey Epstein before,

[Michael Tracy]

certainly before, would know that this man,

[Tara Palmeri]

if they had walked into his Palm

[Michael Tracy]

beach house, they knew what he was

[Tara Palmeri]

about because there were Polaroid pictures that

[Michael Tracy]

were collected by the police of children. Okay? And these are girls under 18, minors, illegally.

[Tara Palmeri]

He had those pictures in the house.

[Michael Tracy]

And, you know, 90, 98% of the

[Tara Palmeri]

files are still in the FBI's hands right now. That's according to. To internal emails that say that they

[Michael Tracy]

were collecting about 40 terabytes of footage. Okay, we haven't seen that. And we have a pretty big reason to believe that a lot of that is because it is video footage.

[Tara Palmeri]

It's terabytes. We've only seen 300 gigabytes. Okay?

[Michael Tracy]

It's video footage. And it's most likely that we are not seeing it because it is of underage girls.

[Tara Palmeri]

So I want to.

[Michael Tracy]

I just want to say that, to

[Tara Palmeri]

just start the conversation off.

[Michael Tracy]

So for the narrative that is, it

[Tara Palmeri]

feels like a counter narrative that is now being propelled that this is some sort of witch trial or that Jeffrey Epstein didn't really commit any crimes. These girls were just prostitutes. Whatever it is, what is pedophilia?

[Michael Tracy]

I mean, even Alan Dershowitz back in the day wrote a piece about whether

[Tara Palmeri]

child pornography should be illegal.

[Michael Tracy]

I mean, these are people who have

[Tara Palmeri]

been constantly pushing the boundaries on this topic. And I just want to, you know,

[Michael Tracy]

I want to start there because I think that's really important. Let's not forget, let's not like let the wealth porn the rich friends, the high flying lifestyle overshadow the crimes and why he probably and why he got away with them.

[Tara Palmeri]

It wasn't just his powerful connections.

[Michael Tracy]

There was likely something more there.

[Isaac Saul]

Foreign. We'll be right back after this quick break.

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[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I appreciate you starting there. I mentioned off air to you right before we started that I had Michael Tracy on the show yesterday. And before him and I got on the show yesterday, I mentioned that I was interviewing you today. And I know you two have tangled and debated about this issue on TV and various media spaces and. And, you know, I don't know if he fits directly into, like, some of the quote, unquote rewriting of the narrative that you're talking about, but something that he definitely put forward in our conversation was this idea that he thinks about the groups of survivors differently. Like, there are women who were in their early 20s when they first met Epstein and have, you know, in his view, are basically making a living off of suing his estate and after having consensual sexual relationships with him in their early 20s. And then there's this other group of women that, you know, were like, solicited when they were of the high school age or, you know, 17, 18, 19 or whatever, and recruiting friends.

[Michael Tracy]

Notice how he used the word.

[Tara Palmeri]

Notice how he started with 17. Jane Doe 1 in the crime victims Rights act case, Courtney Wilde showed up on Epstein's doorstep at 13 with braces on her teeth. But Michael Tracy never mentions that, does he?

[Isaac Saul]

I am. I mean, so I guess to that point, I'm curious, like, how you think about the different groups of people who have accused Epstein of these sexual crimes. You know, whether you delineate between them, if there is a delineation in your mind. And also the stories of those younger survivors, I'm curious, like, which ones stand out to you as either, you know, particularly horrifying or particularly representative of some of the things that Epstein was doing. Cause I do think that's something like my audience is trying to get clarity on is like, what some of those specific allegations are, how they're substantiated, that sort of thing.

[Tara Palmeri]

I think the fact that we're even delineating the types of sex crimes and which ones were bad and which ones weren't bad.

[Michael Tracy]

Cause last time I checked, you know,

[Tara Palmeri]

non consensual sex, regardless of your age, is considered rape and a crime.

[Michael Tracy]

So I think that's what they want, actually.

[Tara Palmeri]

I think that's what Michael Tracy wants to do, is for us to delineate whether someone being raped at 23 or 14, if one crime is worse than the other. And if Jeffrey Epstein deserves a lighter sentence or we should be talking about those things differently is like a little bit gross, frankly, in my opinion.

[Michael Tracy]

And so while we know that there were girls that were raped by Jeffrey Epstein as young as 13, we know that 12, one of them won. Jane Doe we know of, and likely many more. Because the truth is that most sex crimes go unreported. And the reason that you see so many of the women now, women who,

[Tara Palmeri]

some of them were girls, some of them were young adults, you could say 18, 19. As Michael Tracy says speaking out on

[Michael Tracy]

camera, is because the ones who were in their teenage years or younger were so traumatized by what happened that they

[Tara Palmeri]

don't want their neighbors, they don't want their friends, their families to know about it. Some of them have taken their own lives.

[Michael Tracy]

Courtney Wilde, for example, who met him

[Tara Palmeri]

at 13 years old, spent more time

[Michael Tracy]

in prison than Jeffrey Epstein did in a real prison, not in a county jail for shoplifting. Okay? And she used the money that she

[Tara Palmeri]

got from Jeffrey Epstein, the first settlement,

[Michael Tracy]

which she said made her feel like a prostitute. After she was the one who was

[Tara Palmeri]

a victim of sexual assault from a

[Michael Tracy]

50 year old man when she was 13, she blew it all on drugs

[Tara Palmeri]

to numb the pain.

[Michael Tracy]

So, like, that's the thing about Michael Tracy. Why are we even delineating it? If I was raped at 25, is that any worse than being raped at 33? It's a crime. It's a crime. It's a crime. It's a crime.

[Isaac Saul]

And I mean, I don't want to

[Michael Tracy]

say that they were, they had, they were trafficked, which we know they were. I mean, he specifically attacks Virginia Giuffre, who we know was underage when she was being moved around the world. It's on the flight records. There's data for sex with other people.

[Isaac Saul]

I'm actually, I actually like, I don't

[Michael Tracy]

understand why, like the fact that we ask those questions, it like blows my mind. Because he wants you to ask those questions.

[Tara Palmeri]

And that's why I've said to Michael,

[Michael Tracy]

I've asked him, who's paying you to be so virulent, to be so, to, to want to tear these stories apart. He is like, he, he's acting as if he's like Epstein's defense attorney, even

[Tara Palmeri]

though the guy's dead.

[Michael Tracy]

But clearly there are many men who

[Tara Palmeri]

are still alive who have been accused of sexual assault as well. And you know, I just. And a lot of these men are really rich and powerful and it would do them a lot of good for us to have a conversation like this.

[Isaac Saul]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

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[Tara Palmeri]

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[Isaac Saul]

I think there's something about the conversation that makes me really uncomfortable too. And I brought this up. I mean, the way I put it to Michael when he was on the show was, I have baby cousins who are 15, 16 years old, and if they had a relationship with a 50 year old man, I wouldn't be having a conversation about whether they were being taken advantage of or there was some power dynamic or it was, you know, a sex crime. Like, it would be very obvious to me. And I think everybody involved, there was something wrong with that. And so, you know, I expressed that. I felt like that, like that made me squirm having that conversation. And I think, like, you know, I don't want to speak for Michael and I'm not trying to adopt his position. I think he's. His sort of. His angle is like, we need to be really specific about the Allegations that we're talking about because there's differences in the accusers, there's differences in the crimes that have been proven and the crimes that haven't. And there's like no sort of subtlety or nuance in the debate happening in the public discourse. I think that is basically how he defended what he was putting forward when I brought up my uncomfortability with sort of some of what he was saying. I do want to, I don't want to litigate the Michael Tracy.

[Tara Palmeri]

I just want to say one thing that the FBI said that there are many, as many as a thousand victims.

[Michael Tracy]

You know, like, yeah, the FBI.

[Isaac Saul]

I mean, what.

[Michael Tracy]

This is the FBI that won't even

[Tara Palmeri]

give us 98% of the documents and they will acknowledge that there are as many as a thousand victims.

[Michael Tracy]

And they use that argument when they

[Tara Palmeri]

were arresting and indicting Glenn Maxwell, a woman who sits in jail for crimes against children.

[Michael Tracy]

So just want to like lay that out there for the audience. That is maybe thinking to themselves, like, wait a minute, is it okay if they were 21? So many of these girls were in high school and some were younger like that. That is, he went to interlock and he went to schools. Like how many of these women have

[Tara Palmeri]

to go on TV for you to

[Michael Tracy]

see their face, for you to know their stories? And I think to myself, you know, they. A lot of the girls that you see on TV and that speak out, with the exception of Courtney Wilde and a few others.

[Tara Palmeri]

Like one of them I sat down with many times, she's. Now she's spoken out for the first time recently.

[Michael Tracy]

But back in 2019, and she was sobbing at the table with me, feeling so much shame for something that happened

[Tara Palmeri]

to her when she was 14 years old. 14.

[Michael Tracy]

And the thing that, I don't think people understand this.

[Tara Palmeri]

When a crime is committed against you, that is.

[Michael Tracy]

That really destroys your psyche, creates shame, ruins your self worth. And then when a woman is paid on top of it, it can feel like another payment.

[Tara Palmeri]

It can make them feel like prostitutes.

[Michael Tracy]

So this whole idea that these are some money hungry girls out there trying to make money off of Epstein estate. Why does Epstein's estate still have hundreds

[Tara Palmeri]

of millions of dollars in it, by the way?

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know the answer to that.

[Michael Tracy]

Is Michael Tracy worried about that?

[Isaac Saul]

I. I think, I think why was

[Michael Tracy]

he about to give all the money,

[Tara Palmeri]

his entire inheritance to his friend's daughter,

[Michael Tracy]

by the way, who when she died, he died, was I believe in high

[Tara Palmeri]

school when he died.

[Michael Tracy]

He wanted to marry her. He thought that she could be his wife, his only wife, the Dubin daughter, Selina Dubin.

[Isaac Saul]

In your initial answer to my first question, you brought up Virginia Giuffre, who's somebody that I wanted to talk to you specifically about because a lot of people sort of discourse about her. You're a reporter who actually spent a lot of time with her. You've written extensively about her story. This was not something I discussed with Michael Tracy when he came on the show. Virginia did not come up. But I know that her credibility has been called into question by some of the people who you're talking about and referencing. So I'm wondering if maybe you could tell for our audience. I'm sure some people are familiar with her story. I mean, she is, aside from Glenn Maxwell, probably the woman whose name is most well known in relation to Jeffrey Epstein. If you could tell her story and also explain a little bit about, through the process of your reporting, why you find her so credible and why you don't think the attacks on her credibility, I guess, hold water.

[Tara Palmeri]

Yeah, I mean, I just want to

[Michael Tracy]

start with the fact that we would

[Tara Palmeri]

know nothing about Prince Andrew and his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein today if not for Virginia Giuffre. So I think we should start with that. And that was after a decade of people dragging Virginia through the mud. Dragging her through the mud. They called her like a teen slut, I think, in the British papers. Virginia's credibility has long been attacked, and I would say she's been proven right. And so much of her story has not been told, by the way, even from her herself. Publishers unwilling to share the full story. It's that dark and it's that grim.

[Michael Tracy]

It's a lot.

[Tara Palmeri]

It was a lot for me to digest, frankly. Incredibly sad.

[John Law]

Hey, everybody, this is John, executive producer for Tangle. We hope you enjoyed this preview of our latest episode. If you are not currently a newsletter subscriber or a premium podcast subscriber, and you are enjoying this content and would like to finish it, you can go to readtangle.com and sign up for a newsletter subscription. Or you can sign up for a podcast subscription or a bundled subscription, which gets you both the podcast and the newsletter and unlocks the rest of this episode, as well as ad free daily podcasts, more Friday editions, Sunday editions, bonus content, interviews, and so much more. Most importantly, we just want to say thank you so much for your support. We're working hard to bring you much more content and more offerings. So stay tuned. I will join you again for the daily podcast for the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'.

[Michael Tracy]

All.

[Paige from Giggly Squad]

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[Adam Grant]

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[Isaac Saul]

Peace Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editors Audrey Moorhead, Lindsey Knuth and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Dan Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website at retangle.

[Quince Advertiser]

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