PREVIEW: SPECIAL EDITION - Senior Editor Will Kaback interviews author Thomas Chatterton Williams about his new book Summer of Our Discontent and more.

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Tangle
Host: Will Kbach (Senior Editor; guest host for this episode)
Guest: Thomas Chatterton Williams (Author, cultural critic)
Episode: Special Edition – Interview about Summer of Our Discontent
Date: March 3, 2026

In this special episode, Tangle’s Will Kbach sits down with author and acclaimed cultural critic Thomas Chatterton Williams to discuss his latest book, Summer of Our Discontent. The conversation explores the evolution of American social and political life over the past 15 years, particularly focusing on questions of race, identity, polarization, institutional credibility, and how societies can move forward with humility and openness. The discussion is deeply rooted in Williams’ unique perspective, drawing lines from the optimism of the Obama era through to the upheavals of 2020, and into the tumultuous present against the backdrop of a second Trump administration.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Genesis and Purpose of the Book

• Setting the Scene

  • Will Kbach traces Williams’ previous work as moving from personal memoir to increasingly outward, socially and politically engaged writing. The new book takes a critical look at America from Obama’s election through to recent years of upheaval and polarization.
  • Will Kbach: “Why this topic now? And when you started this book, what were the goals that you set out to achieve with it?” [04:54]

• Williams’ Rationale

  • Williams started the book in Spring 2021, seeing the events of summer 2020 as “emotionally taxing and intellectually maddening” periods that needed to be examined.
  • He intended to “make a case for a kind of moderation, a kind of way of reconciling extremes,” and to bear witness to “the absurdities that we lived through.” [05:36]
  • Thomas Chatterton Williams: “…I wanted to make a case for a kind of moderation, a kind of way of reconciling extremes that tries to get to a greater shared truth.” [05:54]

---

Core Concepts: Identitarianism and Liberalism

• Book’s Central Argument

  • Will Kbach quotes the book’s preface:
    • “…an argument for why we must resist the mutually assured destruction of identitarianism, even when it comes dressed up in the seductive guise of anti-racism and really believe in the process of liberalism again.” [06:15]

• Defining Identitarianism

  • Williams sees identitarianism not as belonging solely to the left or right, but as a societal focus on immutable group identities to the exclusion of shared principles or compromise.
  • This approach, he argues, encourages groups—whether based on race, ethnicity, religion, or sexuality—to advocate their interests above the “common good.”
  • He criticizes both left-wing identity politics, which creates “unbridgeable gaps,” and the reactionary right-wing identity politics now rising in response.
  • Thomas Chatterton Williams: “…our racial and ethnic and religious and sexual categories are the thing that matters most and the thing that can't be transcended … [it] leads to a kind of, I think Glenn Lowry termed it best, a kind of identity epistemology where you can't even understand the same knowledge that I possess intrinsically by being non white... that became very toxic for our political culture.” [07:08]

---

The Feedback Loop of Group Politics

• Origins of “Woke Right” and Group Polarization
  • Will asks whether the right is simply reacting to—or imitating—the left’s prior emphasis on group identity, or whether this is a deeper human tendency towards tribalism. [10:36]
  • Williams argues it's a mix of both: identity politics is an age-old human impulse, but recent years on the left created a “permission structure” that institutionalized it.
  • The “naive post-racial ideal” that informed post-Obama discourse was, in his view, abandoned, with group-identity politics filling the vacuum, soon adopted on the political right as well.
  • Thomas Chatterton Williams: “There was this sense that we should be moving towards a kind of... post racial, colorblind, multi ethnic ideal. ... Then this kind of progressive fixation on reinvesting in racial difference and identity difference... I think that was an extraordinary mistake. ... it was inevitable that more and more whites would start to advocate for themselves as politically as a block as whites.” [11:05]

---

The Perils of Identitarianism

• Mutually Assured Destruction
  • Williams asserts that hardened group polarization has led American society into a state of “mutually assured destruction”—that is, a deadlock where no side can win, and everyone loses.
  • Thomas Chatterton Williams: “The society is coming apart… when people split into groups and then go into a kind of battle royale… this country isn’t working well when we divide this way… Even two years ago when I wrote that line, that was a kind of a claim that people could say, oh, you’re exaggerating… But actually I think we have moved well into the realm of a kind of mutually assured destruction.” [13:16]

---

Institutional Behavior and Shifting Norms

• Elite Institutions & Ideological Conformity
  • Will brings up how, during the period covered by the book, elite institutions (universities, media, the art world) developed a “moralized anti-racist consensus,” leading to "suppressing dissent and ideological conformity."
  • He notes that, post-Trump re-election, some institutions seem to be re-examining these ideas, sometimes under external pressure (e.g., political retribution) or internal reconsideration. [14:43]
  • Williams doubts that meaningful change has occurred, except perhaps in increased caution. He sees these ideas as still deeply entrenched in academia/media, likening their persistence to Camus’s description of “the plague” lying dormant, ready to re-emerge.
  • Thomas Chatterton Williams: “…there’s no kind of reconsideration. There’s no assessment that… perhaps we went too far, these ideas were wrong. There’s just a kind of biding their time until… they’re politically and culturally ascendant again.” [16:42]
  • Memorable moment / metaphor: “It [illiberal orthodoxy] never actually is eradicated. It lies quietly in like old furniture and waits for, you know, a city’s unsuspecting rodent population to reinfect.” [17:18]

---

Reflection on Trump’s Second Term and Protest Movements

• Vindication and Diagnosis

  • Will mentions that some on the left may feel vindicated—their warnings about Trump’s second term have proved accurate, which could reinforce their point of view. [18:37]
  • Williams distinguishes between “Trump derangement syndrome” (widespread anxiety across the spectrum) and “wokeness"—arguing the latter is not synonymous with being anti-Trump nor does it exclusively own the moral high ground.
  • Thomas Chatterton Williams: "I think that we can really say that the worst kind of crazy Trump derangement syndrome fears have been fully validated in the second term. But I don't think that that was the exclusive property of the woke left. ... there were too many similarities between the kind of illiberal left and illiberal right for them to be able to claim that as the more moral high ground." [19:14]

• Parallels in Protest Movement 2026 vs. 2020

  • Will references recent killings by DHS agents in Minneapolis, comparing the current protests to those after George Floyd and noting both similarities and differences (timing of Trump’s term, increased public support for protest goals like abolishing ICE). [20:17]
  • He asks Williams to comment on whether this wave of protest reflects a resurgence of illiberal sentiment.
  • (The discussion is cut short by the episode preview’s paywall.)

---

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• Williams on His Motivation for Writing:
  • “I wanted to make a case for a kind of moderation, a kind of way of reconciling extremes that tries to get to a greater shared truth.” (Thomas Chatterton Williams, 05:54)
• Williams on the Toxicity of Identity Epistemology:
  • “That led to a kind of, I think Glenn Lowry termed it best, a kind of identity epistemology where you can't even understand the same knowledge that I possess intrinsically by being non white... that became very toxic for our political culture.” (07:56)
• Williams on the Feedback Loop:
  • “…the permission structure that this is how politics is going to go... from that moment on, it was inevitable that more and more whites would start to advocate for themselves as politically as a block as whites.” (11:35)
• Williams on Current Social Division:
  • “Even two years ago when I wrote that line, that was a kind of a claim that people could say, oh, you’re exaggerating, you know, mutually assured destruction… But actually I think we have moved well into the realm of a kind of mutually assured destruction.” (14:11)
• Williams’ Camus Metaphor:
  • “It [illiberal orthodoxy] never actually is eradicated. It lies quietly in like old furniture and waits for, you know, a city’s unsuspecting rodent population to reinfect.” (17:18)
• Williams on Trump, Wokeness, and the Illiberal Right & Left:
  • “I think quite a lot of very reasonable centrists and even center right conservatives also had that level of Trump derangement syndrome that’s been borne out. So I would just say that yes, they have been proven correct on a number of issues, but that is not exactly what wokeness is about. ... there were too many similarities between the kind of illiberal left and illiberal right for them to be able to claim that as the more moral high ground.” (19:14)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:42] – Introduction to the episode and guest
• [04:10] – Williams joins and gives opening remarks
• [04:54] – Motivation for the book; “Why now?”
• [06:15] – Central argument: resisting identitarianism and reviving liberalism
• [07:08] – Williams defines identitarianism and critiques its rise on both left and right
• [10:36] – Discussion: Human tribalism vs. imitative backlash, “woke right”
• [13:16] – Williams explains “mutually assured destruction” as a result of group fixation
• [14:43] – Are elite institutions changing? Or is orthodoxy dormant?
• [17:18] – Camus “plague” analogy for persistent illiberalism
• [18:37] – Has the left been vindicated by Trump’s second term?
• [20:17] – Recent Minneapolis protests and contemporary parallels to 2020

---

Conclusion

This episode offers an in-depth, nuanced look at America’s ongoing struggle with identity, polarization, and the fate of liberalism, viewed through Thomas Chatterton Williams’ keen analytic lens and personal narrative. It is especially relevant for listeners interested in the interplay between culture, institutions, and politics in the 21st century. The tone is thoughtful and wary, as both guest and host grapple with the challenges facing liberal societies and the hope for a more inclusive, less tribal future.

For those who wish to hear more, additional content is available via Tangle’s premium subscription.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial Geniuses. Monetary Magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust Bill to handle bill pay processes. Why? Because our tools are built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. We're not just moving money, we're powering financial workflows for half a million customers. That's a level of expertise you just can't fake. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit bill.comproven to get started and grab a $250 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See Offer page for details.

[Will Kbach]

Okay, I have to tell you, I was just looking on ebay, where I go for all kinds of things I love. And there it was. That hologram trading. One of the rarest. The last one I needed for my set.

[eBay Advertiser]

Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams.

[Will Kbach]

One of a kind. Ebay had it and now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you get your windshield wipers? Ebay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful. Millions of finds, each with a story. EBay Things people love.

[Podcast Announcer]

From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.

[Will Kbach]

Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of our take. I'm your host today Senior editor Will Kbach. On today's episode, I'm really glad to be joined by Thomas Chatterton Williams. Thomas is a writer and a cultural critic. You've probably read his work in places like the New York Times Magazine, the Atlantic, Harper's, or the New Yorker. He's also the author of three books, the newest of which is called Summer of Our Discontent, which we had him on the show today to talk about. Broadly, though, for more than a decade now, Thomas has been one of those writers and those thinkers who really doesn't fit neatly into any political box or on either side of the political or partisan spectrum. A lot of his work and his writing focuses on issues around race, identity, and belonging. A lot of it comes from a deeply personal perspective, and one of the things about him that's always stood out to me is his willingness to question the dominant ideas on either side of the political spectrum. So some are of our discontent, specifically is his attempt to take a step back take stock of the last 15 years or so in the United States, starting from the optimism that followed the election of President Obama in 2008, through some of the upheavals we experienced in 2020 around the pandemic and George Floyd's death, and into the more anxious and polarized moment that we're living in right now. The book raises uncomfortable questions, questions that I grappled a lot with when I read it, about moral certainty, institutional behavior, and how liberal societies like the ones we have here in the United States, handle disagreement. So we're really excited to have Thomas on the show to talk about the book, to talk about how a lot of the central ideas in the book translate and can be understood through the political moment we're living through in the present. And we talked with Thomas about what has changed in his view since he wrote the book and since it published just in the past year. Some of the things that he thinks he got right, some of the critiques that have changed the way he thinks about those ideas and what it might look like as a society and as a country to move forward in this moment with a little more humility and a little more openness. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Thomas Chatterton Williams. Thomas, thanks so much for joining us on the show.

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Will Kbach]

So I'm looking forward to talking about your new book, which is called Summer of Our Discontent. To start off, I want to set the scene a little bit about how this book came to be. So to paint in very broad strokes, your first book I would describe as a coming of age memoir. Your second book discusses how your conception of your identity has evolved over time, especially in adulthood and maturity. But this third book now looks more explicitly outward. So you're talking about these deep seated social issues, political issues, cultural issues from our very recent past as a country. So my first question is why this topic now? And when you started this book, what were the goals that you set out to achieve with it?

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Yeah, I mean, why now is such an interesting question. You know, the book came out in August, and at the time, August was already a very different period than the summer of 2020 and its aftermath that I was dealing with. But it feels like now that we're talking in the beginning of 2026, we live in a different world, a different country. So much has happened. It's kind of tricky to talk about the recent past. So why now? It just felt like something that I thought needed to be examined a bit. You know, the pacing of a book means that you can't guarantee that you're in sync with the current events when it is released. But I did think that, you know, something really important and very polarizing and very emotionally taxing and intellectually maddening happened in the summer of 2020. And I wanted to bear witness to some of, I think, the absurdities that we lived through. And to also make a kind of case, which I think is the thing that links a lot of my work. I wanted to make a case for a kind of moderation, a kind of way of reconciling extremes that tries to get to a greater shared truth. And so that's what I thought the book's contribution could be. And that's why I, you know, I started working on it in the spring of 2021.

[Will Kbach]

I want to read a little bit from the preface where you lay out the book's central argument. So for the readers who haven't read it, this is how the central argument is described. You write that Summer of Our Discontent is ultimately an argument for why we must resist the mutually assured destruction of identitarianism, even when it comes dressed up in the seductive guise of anti racism and really believe in the process of liberalism again. If we are ever to make our multi ethnic societies hospitable to ourselves and to the future generations we hope will surpass us, we must in a sense reopen or finally open the liberal mind which has been pressed, perilously closed by furious radical and sophistic forces on both sides of the political and cultural spectrum. So I want to drill down on a little bit of the way that you outlined that specifically this idea of identitarianism. Can you describe a bit more what that means and what you mean in this context by that?

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Yeah, I mean this is something that you see from both the left and the right. Identitarianism isn't. It doesn't belong to one side of the political spectrum, but it's this kind of idea that our racial and ethnic and religious and sexual categories are the thing that matters most and the thing that can't be transcended. And so that we have this kind of zero sum way of engaging society in which my interests as a black man, as a Jew, as a white man, white woman, must be put forth over any attempt to compromise or negotiate a common good. So, you know, this is something that we're seeing really terribly implemented from the right now. There's a kind of, really kind of surprisingly reactionary identitarian backlash on the right that even starts to talk about a kind of blood and soil relation between whites, heritage whites and this country. But you know, this book is also very concerned with the kind of progressive anti racist identitarianism that kind of took the idea of arguing against racism, which is real, and turning it into a kind of essential difference between people of color and whites that made a kind of unbridgeable gap that, that led to a kind of, I think Glenn Lowry termed it best, a kind of identity epistemology where you can't even understand the same knowledge that I possess intrinsically by being non white. And so the most you can do if you want to not oppose me is to listen to me and to be silent. And you know, that became very toxic as I think the events have borne out, that became very toxic for our political culture. And I don't think it's solely responsible for, but it participated in the kind of backlash white identity politics that we're experiencing now.

[Podcast Break Announcer]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

[Podcast Announcer]

The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression and even suicidal thoughts. That's where GAB comes in. GAB offers safe phones and watches with no Internet or social media. Just the right tech at the right time. From smart watches for young kids to advanced parent managed phones for teens, GAB keeps kids connected safely. Visit gab.com getgab and use code getgab for a special offer that's G A B b.com getgab Gab Tech in steps independence for them Peace of mind for

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

parents this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching your insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Will Kbach]

Do you think that the backlash that you're describing, sometimes I hear it described as like the woke, right. Do you think that that is the right taking its cues from the left from this period that you're describing in the book from this summer of social justice post, George Floyd or do you think it speaks to something maybe just more human, deeply seated human and how we have these like polarized Groups and these tribal camps, and then this is what naturally results from that. I'm curious how you think about that.

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Well put. Your question is it's both. It certainly is very human. And I don't think that it would be fair at all to say that identity politics was invented by the left or invented anytime in recent memory. A version of identity politics has probably been going on since Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden. But I do think that in recent years from the left, there was created a kind of permission structure that this is how politics is going to go, that this is how culture within institutions will operate now. And so I think that opened a Pandora's box that it's very difficult to put back together now. You know, advocating for yourself as part of a group became, you know, it was never perfect, but it became disreputable. For some years there was this sense that we should be moving towards a kind of, you know, everybody laughs. It's so terribly naive. A kind of post racial, colorblind, multi ethnic ideal. That was something that was, you know, was considered, if not possible, at least the horizon towards which we should be aiming towards. And then this kind of progressive fixation on reinvesting in racial difference and identity difference and the identitarianism that we were talking about, I think that was an extraordinary mistake. We gave up this idea that advocating as a identity block was disreputable. And then I think it was from that moment on, it was inevitable that more and more whites would start to advocate for themselves as politically as a block as whites.

[Will Kbach]

I know Tangle's editor at large, Camille Foster, who I know you also know he's written about that idea a bit in Tangle too. And I know for some people it can almost feel like heretical to say the idea of a post racial society or moving past the idea of just seeing someone as what their identity is or what their racial category is. But just to close the thought on this, the start of the book and how you outline it. Why do you say that it's mutually assured destruction, this identitarianism?

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Oh, well, because I don't think that there's going to. I mean, I think you can see that the society is coming apart. It seems when people split into groups and then go into a kind of battle royale, all against all struggle for what's considered to be, you know, a limited pie. This country isn't working well when we divide this way. It's, you know, you could say that we have never achieved the post racial society, but that kind of idea that that is that the liberal society where we come together and we share or we, we negotiate universal principles that everybody can buy into and that everybody can benefit from, regardless of ethnic background, that fundamentally works better than the kind of low simmering, kind of civil war almost that is happening under Trump now when some Americans are more fitting in the society than others and some, you know, relish the punishment of or expulsion of others. I think it's a very dangerous place to be. And I think that, you know, that was a kind of, even two years ago when I wrote that line, that was a kind of a claim that people could say, oh, you're exaggerating, you know, mutually assured destruction. Okay, I get the point. But actually I think we have moved well into the realm of a kind of mutually assured destruction.

[Will Kbach]

Yeah, so you mentioned this at the beginning, that the world we live in now feels very different from when the book was published or when you wrote the book. But I am curious, thinking specifically about these elite institutions that you describe in the book and the time period you're covering. You say they're become dominated by this, this moralized anti racist consensus. And the focus of that is suppressing dissent and ideological conformity. And that in itself undermines the reason that those institutions are supposed to exist and their credibility and leads to some of this backlash that we're talking about. But in the past year, especially since Trump was reelected, I do think we've seen some changes in those institutions, some of them brought on by the President acting like taking retribution against these institutions, but also I think in response to the election and feeling like they had gone a little too far astray. So I'm curious, do you see changes happening in the past year relative to the time period you covered in the book?

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

It's a really hard question to answer because in the fields where these kinds of progressive orthodoxies took strongest hold, I think that they're so deeply entrenched in academia, in the media, in the art world. It's certainly the case that there is more awareness of excesses and that people are more careful. But I don't think that there's fundamentally been buy in that these ideas were wrong or that in the future they wouldn't be implemented again in these spaces. I really don't see this change among faculty and universities specifically, but there is a sense that you can't do what was happening before in quite the same way. But I don't know. Do you spend time on Bluesky?

[Will Kbach]

I don't actually. I'm still an X user.

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

It's an interesting window into the world because those voices, of course, all are mostly left Twitter. And it's a kind of insulated world in which you hear, you know, plenty of people who are quite prominent in media engage people that don't disagree with the kind of woke worldview at all. And you see that there's no kind of reconsideration. There's no assessment that, you know, perhaps we went too far, these ideas were wrong. There's just a kind of biding their time until, until they, until they're politically and culturally ascendant again.

[Will Kbach]

Dormant.

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Yeah, I think that it's more like what does Camus say about the plague? It never actually is eradicated. It lies quietly in like old furniture and waits for, you know, a city's unsuspecting rodent population to reinfect.

[Podcast Break Announcer]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game, shifting a little money here, a little there and hoping it all works out well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill, too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help you find options within your budget. Try it [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states. Over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust bill to simplify and secure bill pay. That's proven financial infrastructure built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. Visit bill.com proven for a special offer.

[Will Kbach]

I do wonder the degree to which these people have been vindicated in some form. Not about the, the illiberal elements or the ideological demands, but as we've seen the first year of the second Trump administration play out. I do think that they can point to many of these things that they were saying and say this played out exactly how we said it was going to and we were called overreactive and we were pushed out of, or attempted to be pushed out of the Democratic coalition or the left coalition. And so I do wonder where is the space for that when in some ways they have diagnosed what we've seen in the first Trump administration well in advance?

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Oh, well, I would separate those two things a bit. I think that we can really say that the worst kind of crazy Trump derangement syndrome fears have been fully validated in the second term. But I don't think that that was the exclusive property of the woke left. I think quite a lot of very reasonable centrists and even center right conservatives also had that level of Trump derangement syndrome that's been borne out. So I would just say that yes, they have been proven correct on a number of issues, but that is not exactly what wokeness is about. It wasn't synonymous with anti Trump kind of. I would actually say that there were too many similarities between the kind of illiberal left and illiberal right for them to be able to claim that as the more moral high ground

[Will Kbach]

in some ways, not necessarily positive ones. I'm glad that we're having the conversation now after we've seen the events in Minneapolis over the past month with the two killings by DHS agents in Minneapolis again, so obviously bringing to mind memories and aspects of the summer of 2020 after George Floyd's death. I grew up in Minnesota. I grew up in a suburb of Minneapolis. So this is all very close to home to me. I was in Minneapolis when George Floyd was killed. I was in Minneapolis. Renee Goode was killed last month. From my perspective, there's a lot of similar feelings coming up now among the people in Minneapolis and that's obviously spreading across the country. We're seeing that protest movement resurface again. At the same time, I think there are also some very interesting differences. The point we are in Trump's term versus George Floyd, which was at the end of his term, the fact that there appears to be more of a public backing for the core goals of the protest movement. I mean, I think abolishing ICE is now like a majority view based on some recent surveys of the US Populace. But I am curious. When you see the kinds of protests that are taking place and you see the rhetoric that exists around these events, do you see parallels to this time period that you're talking about in the book? Do you see that illiberal sentiment rising back up in response to immigration enforcement, mass deportation efforts? And where do you see differences exist?

[John Law]

Hey everybody, this is John, executive Producer for Tangle. We hope you enjoyed this preview of our latest episode. If you are not currently a newsletter subscriber or a premium podcast subscriber and you are enjoying this content and would like to finish it, you can go to readtangle.com and sign up for a newsletter subscription. Or you can sign up for a podcast subscription or a bundled subscription which gets you both the podcast and the newsletter and unlocks the rest of this episode as well as ad free daily podcasts, more Friday editions, Sunday editions, bonus content, interviews, and so much more. Most importantly, we just want to say thank you so much for your support. We're working hard to bring you much more content and more offerings, so stay tuned. I will join you in again for the daily podcast. For the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day, y'.

[Will Kbach]

All. Peace.

[Podcast Break Announcer]

Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul and our Executive Producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editor Audrey Moorhead, Lindsay Knuth and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tango and to sign up for a membership, please visit our [e-mail].

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

Over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust Bill to simplify and secure bill pay. That's proven financial infrastructure built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. Visit bill.com proven for a special offer.

[eBay Advertiser]

Guys, it's no use putting it off. The best time for an underwear refresh is now. Tommy John Underwear is design for a perfect fit that stays put all day. There's zero chafe thanks to four times more stretch than competing brands and their innovative horizontal Quick Draw Fly is a game changer. With over 30 million pairs sold, there are thousands of men out there more comfortable than you. Don't settle for less. Go to tommyjohn.com today for 25% off your first order with code comfort. That's tommyjohn.comfort Tommy John comfort Perfected Exhausted

[Podcast Announcer]

from spending half your night cooking. Factor eliminates the stress with chef crafted fully prepared meals delivered to your door fresh, never frozen, ready in two minutes. Factor delivers zero cooking, zero stress. Just heat and eat over 100 dietitian approved options weekly with no refined sugars, artificial sweeteners or refined seed oils. Right now go to FactorMeals.com Easy50Authentic and use code Easy50OFF for 50 off and free breakfast for a year. That's FactorMeals.com Easy50OFF and use code Easy50OFF.