Isaac Saul (2:23)

From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.

Ari Weitzman (2:38)

Good morning, good afternoon and good Evening and welcome to the Tangle Sunday podcast. A place where you get views from across the local spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of our take. I'm your host, Ari Weitzman, managing editor at Tango News, and I'm joined by the substitute co host who's taking my place as I'm taking Isaac's take place in hosting. The Sunday editor, Will K. Back. So, Will, what's up? How you doing?

Emma Varva Lucas (3:04)

How's it going? Happy Super Bowl Sunday. To people listening to this in the future. Not right now for us quite yet, but when this is out, it'll be a national holiday.

Ari Weitzman (3:16)

Do you think? Oh, yeah, that's. You're just kind of trying to slide that past me there. Do you think the super bowl should be a national holiday? That's been discussed before.

Emma Varva Lucas (3:24)

I think that it should be. I think that's one of those ideas that would get people to rally around either the day itself because they're a big fan of the sport, or getting some time off the day after. I think that's an idea that probably would net 80% plus approval.

Ari Weitzman (3:42)

Yeah, I'm with you. My only hesitation is that it feels a little odd to have us like a national holiday for the benefit of what is essentially a private company in the NFL. Yep.

Emma Varva Lucas (3:56)

Yep.

Ari Weitzman (3:57)

But I still would want it.

Emma Varva Lucas (3:58)

And I'll. I'll be honest with you, I'm okay with blurring those lines. In this case, it's great.

Ari Weitzman (4:04)

We're an organization that spent a lot of the last couple weeks with tripwire alarms about the norms or the violations of the executive branch and government. And we're like, but if it's football, for me, I think it's gonna be okay.

Emma Varva Lucas (4:18)

The Super Bowl. Everyone loves the Super Bowl.

Ari Weitzman (4:20)

So we're basically agreed that the federal government should not be in bed with big private companies, except when it comes to giving us a Monday off to celebrate the NFL.

Emma Varva Lucas (4:30)

Yeah. Or if the government is going to be wink, wink in bed with private companies like it already is, then why not just give us a day off for the super bowl while we're at it?

Ari Weitzman (4:40)

I don't know. Well, I. I don't. I don't know. I don't quite follow the wink, wink here. It's not as if there's some large multinational company that a contractor is the CEO of or several who is running some secondary extra governmental organization that. That would. That sounds like it would be news. I don't know if that's happening.

Emma Varva Lucas (4:59)

Yeah, that would be troubling if that was the case. But you're right.

Ari Weitzman (5:03)

It must be a day off.

Emma Varva Lucas (5:04)

It must not be. And maybe a day after the super bowl is, is a little bit too much for me to ask.

Ari Weitzman (5:10)

So that's as good a transition as any, I think, to get us to talking about the government and the person at the head of it, which, no, it's not Elon Musk, it's Donald J. Trump, our 45th and 47th president. I wanted to run past you an operating theory that I have on Trump actually, too. So as, all right, we, we are learning more about the way that Trump is governing in a second term, starting to do some pattern recognition of the man from the past eight years, eight years plus. And I have two theories. So here's my first theory. It's pretty simple, based more on the recent Trump that we've seen, which is he is running the executive branch and sort of managing his policies and agenda like a poker player who has the biggest chip stack and keeps getting a great hand. And his first bet every time is to go all in. So when it comes to I want to negotiate the border for Canada and Mexico, all in, 25 tariffs, I want change here in Canada, all imports, everything other than petroleum. But yeah, 10 on that, still not right. And then saying, I want to see real changes on the border. And Mexico comes back and says, I can give you 10,000 troops on the border like we did for Biden. And he's like, great, I won. And then brings his chips back from the center of the table, brings the ten dollar chip that Canada threw in, calls it a win. Saw it with negotiations or we see it ongoing, I think, with negotiations with dei, hiring and spending freezes at the government, saying, I want to weed out any government spending that goes against my agenda. We'll talk a little bit more about DEI and what that means to Trump. But it's essentially going the route of I'm going to pause all federal spending or say that I'm going to create some confusion about what that means, because that means Medicare, Medicaid, things that people depend on daily in addition to things that people's jobs depend on daily. NIH grants, contracts with the Defense Department. It's a big, big, like we can go on and on about the trillions of dollars that the federal government spends, but saying, I'm going to pause all of it so I can root this stuff out. Couple mailers go out saying, we're going to cancel DEI programs, we're going to remove the terms equity from our communications, take some things down from the government websites, Starting to bring his chips back a little bit here. I won here. And I think he's sort of doing the same thing with foreign policy. I think we're seeing it with Israel right now, at least I hope that we are. Something we talked about today in the newsletters we're recording on Thursday about how Trump said the US Is going to take over Gaza. All chips in the middle of the table. That's a huge, huge bet with huge stakes and something that we wrote, I think as a team, we're pretty, pretty critical of. As critical, I think, as we've been about a thing that he said. It's a plan that would require a massive amount of effort from the US as well as potentially hurt long term stability and safety for Israelis because it's going to create more hardship for Palestinians, which is the first thing you are saying. We're going to take 2 million people, we're going to put them elsewhere against their will. He said permanently. The White House said temporarily. Then he came back and said, no, I meant permanently. And it's something that is risky, unfeasible to the point of it being unbelievable. And I don't know what the thing is that it's going to make him bring his chips back from the middle of the table on this one. But he's. If we're reading the president as this poker player with a big chip stack that's trying to throw it around, first of all, not a good way to get your wins. If you want to maximize the nation's interests, play a little bit more of a long game. But also an incredible way of risking your giant chip stack when you have it where the United States, we have the world's biggest military, we have huge influence on the global stage. We don't have to risk so much every time you want to enact a policy that you want. And then the wins that we get are small. And that's going to be the way that I see him until otherwise. Until I see otherwise. But I want to see what you thought about that. That's my first theory.

Emma Varva Lucas (9:56)

Yeah. I think that that framing is exactly how I'm seeing it too. In terms of what you mentioned there at the end about what is going to cause this dynamic to shift. I think right now everyone's a little bit in the world is a little bit on their heels and they're reacting to the things that he's doing or they're anticipating him doing things and trying to get out in front of it in a very defensive way. I think that a Lot of countries are going to get tired of that if this continues. It's been two and a half weeks and he's threatened several countries, allies, as well as pulled the US Back from the international stage in several areas. I don't think this is Paris agreement. Who with Paris Agreement? World Health Organization. We actually saw Argentina yesterday also announced it was pulling out of the World Health Organization. I would say following Trump's lead there. But I don't think this is sustainable. I don't think this is a dynamic where just because the United States has the biggest economy and has the most powerful military, that people are just going to abide by the situation where, okay, we need to appease this guy, we need to show him some kind of a symbolic gesture, we need to make some kind of an effort so he'll pull back from the brink. I don't know what that's going to look like or who is going to be the country or the person to lay down the line, but I feel very confident that this can't continue for four years.

Ari Weitzman (11:22)

And my, my big worry, we're sort of torturing the hell out of this metaphor by continuing it here. And it's a little, it's a little inhumane. But I do think it's, like, somewhat helpful to think about things in frameworks like this. My worry is that we could be seeing that actor that's going to push back in Hamas, because this is an organization that clearly has shown very consistently that they're willing to put the lives of their population that they're tasked with governing on the line for instigation and for anything that's going to hurt their enemy. And their risk reward calculation is something that is totally different than other world leaders. So Trump's saying, we'll come in and we'll take over Gaza. They're like, we're not going to give you hostages, then we're not going to surrender. Sorry, like, this is what's. What happens next. Does the United States actually come in with tanks in Palestine?

Emma Varva Lucas (12:25)

And you brought it up in your take today. What has been more of a galvanizing force for Hamas than the actions of Israel during this war? And the United States is just going to slot right in next to Israel as this common enemy for Hamas to direct the Palestinians living in Gaza to direct their grievances towards. It's not just a recipe for disaster. It's a recipe for disaster that's kind of played out over the last 15 months. And Trump is saying, no, we want to get in on this too we want the US to be a perpetrator of this right alongside Israel.

Ari Weitzman (12:59)

So, and you know, I'm worried that it's going to be a repeat of what the US did with involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan for 20 years in Afghanistan took a long time for the US to disentangle. We got involved with nation building and put a lot on the line for destabilization and arguably marginal benefit, if not more cost to people in the region as well as to our own national security. There's actually a person who for the last 10 years or so has been speaking very critically and convincingly about the harms of nation building and about pulling the US out of these conflicts abroad. And that person's the president. So it's, it's a stunning thing to imagine that Trump could bluff his way into an incredibly hypocritical, harmful, and counterproductive to all parties except for members of the Israeli right who are willing to risk a lot to see Hamas and people they are tasked with governing sort of no longer be their problem. But everybody else will be destabilized and won't be cheering for it. And to see Trump potentially be bluffing his way into doing a thing that Trump doesn't want to do or has said he doesn't want to do is pretty frightening. But that's, that's my framework first framework, which sort of leads me to my second. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.

Unknown (14:44)

Will full coverage make me look cakey? Is my undertone neutral? Or is it cool? We get it. Finding the right foundation is hard, but with IL Maquillage, it's easy to find your perfect match online, customized for your unique skin tone and coverage needs. Plus, with Try before youe Buy, you can try your full size at home for 14 days. With over 600,000 five star reviews, this best selling foundation is going viral for a reason. Take the Power Match quiz now@ilmakiage.com quiz I l m a k I a.

John (15:12)

G e.com quiz when you think of skyrocketing brands like Aloe, Allbirds or Skims, it's easy to credit their success to great products, sleek branding and brilliant marketing. But here's the overlooked secret. The real magic lies in the engine behind the scenes, the business powering their business. For millions of brands, that engine is Shopify, making selling seamless for them and shopping effortless for us. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout Alo Yoga uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comretail all lowercase. Go to shopify.comretail to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.comretail.

Ari Weitzman (16:03)

Trump seems to be, whether or not it's his mania, he seems to be invoking a mania for one bad guy at a time. We're seeing that right now with dei. I almost. If the, if the alternative is that the bad guy is the Middle east and Arabs again, like, I think we'd lived through a little bit in 2001 and 2002, not a very, not a very stable time, I think, for xenophobia in our country. If the bad guy becomes Middle Easterners again, that would be worse. But right now, I think it's sort of dei. If we turn back the clock and look, the last four years with Canada, Trump, it was Biden and the DOJ and witch hunts and lawfare and attacks against what Trump's been doing, like, as a citizen or what he did at the end of his presidency, looking for votes to try to challenge the results of the election and saying that the DOJ was like the enemy of him and thus the enemy of the people, which, like, there are. There were definitely ways that the DOJ overstepped. So it's not as if he's totally making things up. And it broke precedent, which we knew, a lot of us knew was a risk. But those four years was Biden and the DOJ. The year before that, 2019, 2021, that area, it was China, especially following up on Covid, that was the bad guy that we pointed to for the spread of the pandemic, partially for good reason, but also partially unfairly because it wasn't. I don't believe that that was an intentional thing that they did to harm the global economy of which they're a part. I think that's a bit of an overread. But they. The virus did originate in China and was something that Trump held onto for a while. Before that, it was Hillary and the deep state. I think when it comes to the movements that Trump inspires, a lot of it. The America first movement isn't always just America first. It's America first and then the enemy second. And I think that's sort of my theory also. I'm a little bit less confident in this one, but my theory is that Trump sort of inspires these smaller manias amongst a lot of his more ardent supporters. And I think the one that we're seeing right now is dei.

Emma Varva Lucas (18:27)

Yeah, no doubt. Just look at the communication that's coming from the two most visible people in the White House, from Trump and elon Musk and J.D. vance. The. I mean, DEI is appearing in the justification for most of the moves that they're making, or it's the rationale for programs and departments and agencies that are being targeted. I think that this is something that's been discussed at length. What do we mean when we say dei? I think it's kind of become a bit of an amorphous idea. I do think the response to it probably stems from that summer of 2020, the George Floyd protests, and also the Democratic primary and the campaign that Biden went on to run. The language, the messaging, some of the very explicit decisions that he made. Like, I promise that I'm going to nominate the first black woman Supreme Court justice. I promise I'm going to make a black woman my running mate. That was the seeds of this idea that DEI was an ideology that was being institutionalized in the United States and was an oppressive ideology. So I think that's honestly something that swung a lot of people to Trump between 2020 and 2024, was this sense that there was something that felt oppressive, felt wrong, felt out of step with people's values, and that was represented by Biden and the Democratic Party and also the institutions of government, and that Trump was an antidote to that. So I think Trump, being someone who has always had a really great sense of the issues and the ideas that are animating the average person or the populace writ large, tapped into that and is now really seeking to squeeze, now that he is in power, to use that as a justification for some moves that might otherwise really be eyebrow raising, even to his supporters.

Ari Weitzman (20:19)

Yeah, and I think one of those things is the infiltration of government agencies by a sort of quasi governmental agency, which is something that we've talked about before with Musk. We sort of alluded to in a tongue in cheek way off the top about the Doge, sort of infiltrating, if you want to call it that, or having access to, to put it a little bit more neutrally, payment systems and information through the IRS and through the Treasury Department. And it seems like it's all, like you said, like it's justified from this belief that diversity, equity and inclusion and the notion of racial identity being consciously part of an inclusive process had gone a little overboard. But almost like clockwork, reliably, any action has an unequal and opposite reaction, I think. So DEI goes too far. Then the response to DEI goes even farther the other way, meaning that we're going to uproot people's payment information, some of their identifying information, from payroll systems. We're going to do hiring freezes, we're going to do potential rollbacks of employment, cancellation of these meeting groups that were part of not just the irs, but other organizations of just like Pacific Islander meetup groups and advancements for like black women and just like these representation groups that are pretty, pretty benign but are being bycatch in this big trolling net of looking for DEI and uprooting it everywhere. And it's gotten to the point where it's like a mania. And I do think a question that you asked that I think is worth asking again is what are we even talking about when we say dei? Like people who are just part of a Hispanic working group or a Christian working group at work and just want to meet with people who have their same background and interests and talk about networking opportunities. That's not dei. That's not people who are given a job through affirmative action or who are given more advancement opportunities in a top down government oriented way. It's just people who are organizing their own free will. And I'm not sure what we mean, I'm not sure what we're talking about when we say dei.

Emma Varva Lucas (22:50)

Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest here. I think that it is a big problem in our society. I think that it is a problem that requires a significant response. Not the response that we're seeing from the Trump administration, but something that acknowledges that there's a lot of fundamentally illiberal principles that are underscoring a lot of these initiatives. I think the way that I've come to this belief is reading a book called what's Our Problem? By Tim Urban, in which he talks about what healthy societies and healthy communication looks like. And he cites a lot of examples as somebody who describes himself as a longtime Democrat, somebody who holds a lot of progressive beliefs. But there are a lot of environments in the past decade or so where certain ideas, and even broaching them as a discussion point, not even as an argument, are not tolerated in some really influential areas, academia, within institutions of the government, within really, really significant advisory capacities to people who are in power. And there is an expectation that you are not going to say certain things and you are going to say certain things, you're going to acknowledge certain things in the context of everything that you do. And I think that is kind of a fundamentally illiberal idea that has seeped into some really important aspects of our life. I mean, I just think back at my college experience and I know for a fact that at the liberal arts school that I went to a publication like Tangle would have been labeled a conservative publication news outlet because we recognize conservative views and because sometimes we agree with conservative views, even if on the whole the people who right Tangle might also hold many, many progressive or leftist center views. So that kind of experience makes me reflect on oh, is there a real problem that has been identified here that needs to be addressed while still believing that some of the original goals of DEI programs or initiatives may have been moral or just? And I think there is. I think the problem is that like you said, the pendulum has just swung so far in the other direction that it's equally unproductive.

Ari Weitzman (25:18)

We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.

Isaac Saul (25:24)

To make switching to the new Boost Mobile risk free, we're offering a 30 day money back guarantee.

Ari Weitzman (25:29)

So why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile?

Isaac Saul (25:32)

Because you have nothing to lose. Boost Mobile is offering a 30 day money back guarantee.

Ari Weitzman (25:35)

No, I asked why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile?

Isaac Saul (25:39)

Wouldn't because you love wasting money as a way to punish yourself because your mother never showed you enough love as a child.

Ari Weitzman (25:46)

Whoa, easy there.

Isaac Saul (25:47)

Yeah.

Ari Weitzman (25:48)

Applies to online activations, requires port in and auto pay. Customers activating in stores may be charged non refundable activation fees.

John (25:55)

Bombas makes the most comfortable socks, underwear and T shirts.

Ari Weitzman (25:59)

Warning, BOMBAS are so absurdly comfortable you may throw out all your other clothes.

John (26:03)

Sorry, do we legally have to say that?

Ari Weitzman (26:05)

No, this is just how I talk. And I really love my bombas.

John (26:08)

They do feel that good. And they do good too. One item purchased equals one item donated.

Ari Weitzman (26:12)

To feel good and do good, go to bombas.com acast and use code acast for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B-A-S.com acast and use code Acast at checkout. Yeah, and this is actually kind of helpful because it sounds like hearing you talk it to me. Sounds like a conflation of a couple different things. On one hand, like the classic DEI idea to me. Gork classic. It's not very, very old, but it seems like it's the inheritor of the affirmative action movement of consciously trying to correct for pre existing biases is the way that that's generally framed saying that because of historical inequalities we need to do a little bit more to create a more equitable future to correct for those inequalities. But at the same time there are other sort of leftists you're calling illiberal movements amongst the progressive Circles of Puritanism with thought of saying desire. I'm like, you know, a week or two older than you. So I went to school during the, the era when George W. Bush was our president and Obama was running for office. And if you were going to say anything that was sympathetic towards Romney especially, I went to school in Chicago. So it was like a double dose of pure.

Emma Varva Lucas (27:45)

That's a tough one.

Ari Weitzman (27:46)

Yeah, it was like a scarlet letter. So that is something that I think is very true. But at the same time, I think that us thinking about being open to different perspectives and opinions that challenge an orthodox viewpoint or even wording that challenges an orthodox viewpoint is different than dei. I think maybe trying to root out all of these sort of liberal ideologies is what DEI is standing for. But when it, when the rubber meets the road and you're enacting policies at a government level that falls apart and it just starts to become, like I said at the top, it feels like a mania. It feels like we're looking for things to root out. And it's poorly defined to me, so I don't know how to talk about it.

Emma Varva Lucas (28:39)

Yeah, I think that the people who are railing against DEI like that, it's not very well defined because they can use it as a catch all feature, not a bug. Yeah. And it's like that classic line from the Supreme Court about pornography. I know it when I see it.

Ari Weitzman (28:56)

You know when you see it.

Emma Varva Lucas (28:57)

And I'm, and I'm serious. I mean, especially since Elon took over Twitter, I see a lot more probably conservative accounts than I used to, just by the way that the algorithm has changed and there are accounts that will literally, they'll be responding to somebody on the left who has said something and it'll just be that person's profile picture. And you can tell the signifier is, this is a DEI person. This is a woke person. There's no caption. It's a completely unspoken thing that's developed, but for the people who are on that wavelength, they know exactly what it is. And, and that's what it's become. And that's why Elon or anyone else can just say, oh, yeah, we found out that the National Weather Service had DEI programs and there's not going to be a lot of questioning of that because it's seen in every facet of our society almost like a boogeyman.

Ari Weitzman (29:48)

Yeah. Okay. Well, that's another thing that, like the term woke is DEI just copy paste woke. That's the new thing that we're using to call that because WOKE also is a thing that sort of was co opted to become more than what it was originally intended to mean, which was just aware of structural inequalities in society. It was the signifier that that or the mimetic idea that that stood for and then it was sort of taken to become any progressive ideology. I think it starts to fall apart when we talk about it of like what are the problems that are actually being addressed? Is progressive culture being too pervasive and becoming normalized? Whereas like I'm a, like my big principle, my overriding principle is tolerance. Like that's my number one thing. So if there are aspects of gender ideology that I don't personally adhere to, I don't practice them and I tolerate them even if they're things that I disagree with when it comes to any ideology writ large. Like foreign.

G (30:58)

Hey everybody, this is John, executive producer of YouTube and podcast content and co host of the daily podcast. I hope you enjoyed this preview of our Sunday podcast with Ari and Isaac. We are now offering this podcast exclusively to our premium podcast members along with our ad, free daily podcasts, Friday editions, in depth interviews, help, couple upcoming new podcast series, bonus content, and much more. If you want to receive all that and give your support to help us grow Tangle Media, please head over to tanglemedia.supercast.com and sign up for a membership. If it's not the right time for you to sign up, please don't worry. Our ad supported daily podcast isn't going anywhere, but if it is in your ability to support by signing up for a membership, we would greatly appreciate it and we're really excited to share all of our premium offerings with you. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day y'all.

Ari Weitzman (31:58)

Take care.

Emma Varva Lucas (31:59)

Bye y'all. Our podcast is written by me, Isaac Saul, and edited and engineered by John Wall.

Ari Weitzman (32:07)

The script is edited by our managing.

Emma Varva Lucas (32:08)

Editor, Ari Weitzman, Will K Back, Bailey.

Ari Weitzman (32:11)

Saul and Sean Brady.

Emma Varva Lucas (32:13)

The logo for our podcast was designed.

Ari Weitzman (32:14)

By Magdalena Bova, who is also our social Media manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75 and if you're looking for more.

Emma Varva Lucas (32:23)

From Tangle, Please go to readtangle.com and.

Ari Weitzman (32:25)

Check out our website Foreign.

Emma Varva Lucas (32:41)

To get.

Ari Weitzman (32:42)

People excited about Boost Mobile's new nationwide 5G network, we're offering unlimited talk, text and data for 25amonth.

Isaac Saul (32:48)

Forever.

Ari Weitzman (32:49)

Even if you have a baby.

Isaac Saul (32:50)

Even if your baby has a baby.

Ari Weitzman (32:51)

Even if you grow old and wrinkly and you start repeating yourself.

Isaac Saul (32:54)

Even if you start repeating yourself, even.

Ari Weitzman (32:56)

If you're on your deathbed and you need to make one last call or text, right? Or text the long lost son you abandoned at birth, you'll still get unlimited.

Isaac Saul (33:02)

Talk, text and Data for just $25 a month with Boost Mobile forever after.

Ari Weitzman (33:06)

30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.

Unknown (33:12)

I used to think buying foundation online was impossible. How am I supposed to find my shade when I can't even get it right in store? Then I discovered IL Maquillage. I took their AI powered quiz to find my custom match and wow. This foundation is literally my skin in a bottle. The undertone and coverage are spot on. It's so neutral and weightless I can't even tell I'm wearing makeup. Plus, with Try before youe Buy, you can try your full size at home for 14 days. Take the Power Match Quiz now at ilmaquillage.com Quiz I L M A K I A G E.com Quiz there's nothing.

Will K. Back (33:43)

Better than indulging in the mouthwatering taste of unrivaled quality, and the Omaha Steaks Big Yum event is the perfect time to save on legendary flavor. Backed by their 100% guarantee with endless variety, you can bring home the world's best steak experience@omahasteaks.com plus get an extra $20 off with promo Code Holiday at checkout. Their legendary steaks are hand selected from the finest grain finished beef for superior marbling and hand cut by master butchers in America's heartland to deliver exceptional taste and tenderness. The fan favorite Filet Mignon has even earned the coveted title of USDA Certified Tender. The Omaha Steaks Big Yum event is the perfect time to discover something delicious@omahasteaks.com plus our listeners get an extra $20 off with promo code holiday at checkout. Visit omahasteaks.com and get an extra $20 off with Promo Code Holiday. Minimum purchase may apply.