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- [00:00]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Hi, this is Farnoosh Tarabi, host of the Webby winning podcast Sow Money. If you're aiming for a goal, be it saving for a house, growing your family, or retiring life makes it difficult to stay the course. But with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Having the bull at your back helps your whole financial life move with you. So when your plans change, Merrill's with you every step of the way. Go to ML.combullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do Investing involves risk. Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Incorporated. Registered broker dealer, Registered investment advisor Member sipc. Hey there. It's Farnoosh Tarabi, host of the so Money podcast. Imagine having a super smart and reliable virtual friend to help you guide your finances. Well, besides me. Enter Claude by Anthropic. With the power of AI, Claude can help streamline your financial tasks. From analyzing data and charts to generating code for investment models or budget trackers, Claude's advanced reasoning helps you tackle the toughest financial financial challenges. Take control of your financial future with the right tools. Visit Claude AI today and start saving time and money.
- [01:13]
BetterHelp
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- [01:45]
Isaac Saul
All right, coming up, the media still doesn't understand Donald Trump. And I can't believe it. I stand up for the military, and we spend way too much time talking about Jake Paul and Mike Tyson fighting each other. You guys are gonna enjoy this one.
- [02:03]
From executive producer Isaac Saul. This is Tangle.
- [02:18]
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, and welcome to the Tangle podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, here with Tango managing editor Ari Weitzman, and we are in the middle of a hurricane of appointees from the President elect and the new incoming Trump White House. Ari, how are you doing, man?
- [02:45]
Ari Weitzman
Well, when it rains, it pours, Isaac. So maybe we're in the eye of the storm now, but we'll probably be getting plenty of more news about different appointees. I think this was the plan from Jump is to try to get these physician staff so we can keep hearing about it and hopefully we'll be hearing mostly from you about it today because as you could probably hear my voice is rough. I'm going to do my best, but getting through it.
- [03:10]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, I, I'm glad this is tonight or today and not tomorrow because it's Thursday night as we're sitting here recording and there's a massive, a gigantic, unbelievably important football game happening tonight. And I'm expecting to not have a voice tomorrow morning from screaming at my tv.
- [03:31]
Ari Weitzman
So, yeah, you can't go back to back losses, man. Got to get off, get up off the map.
- [03:36]
Isaac Saul
Better you than me. I just, I hate the entire city of Philadelphia today. I love this place, but I hate it. I hate all the Eagles fans. I walked to work today wearing my commander's jersey just looking for, looking for a fight, inviting it. And I really, really need them to win this game or else I'm going to have a really bad weekend and I'm going to hear so much from my Eagles fan friends who are insufferable every season.
- [04:04]
Ari Weitzman
I think putting negative energy out there into the city of Philadelphia is as Philadelphia as you could possibly be. So you're doing the right thing.
- [04:12]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, doing the right thing. All right. We, there's a ton to cover and I think, you know, we've obviously talked a little bit about this in our, you know, newsletter and a little bit on the podcast today. I want to start with just, I'm not sure the best way to frame it. Maybe like the continued inability for smart, prominent left of center people in the political world to misunderstand or their continued inability to understand Donald Trump in a way that is just kind of mind boggling to me. So as we talked about today, Trump nominated three people who I think are deeply unqualified to hold the post they were nominated for for different reasons. One of them, maybe the one that has caused the most kind of slack jaw. Oh my God. Is Matt Gaetz, the representative from Florida who got nominated for attorney General. Pete Hegsett, the Fox News host who's being nominated for Secretary of defense, is a former combat veteran. You know, has things that Trump typically loves, like prestigious schools on his resume. I think he went to Harvard and Princeton. I think there's a case you can make. I'm going to talk about this in a little bit that maybe you want somebody like him to come shake things up. Whatever. Tulsi Gabbard. I don't even know what to say. I mean, I respect elements of her and I think she's ideologically kind of a heterodox. And she was willing to buck and leave the party when she felt like her values no longer aligned. And I appreciate all of that. I do not think she's a particularly serious person. And the idea that she's going to be leading the, you know, being the Director of National Intelligence is odd to me. I don't believe a lot of the left wing and in some cases right wing talking points that she's like some secret Russian agent. I think she's a normie American who got a little bit radicalized going down the Internet rabbit hole. But I also think that, like, there's enough people who are qualified who have access to information I don't that express real genuine, kind of measured fears about her motivations to be the person she is politically, that I worry about her running the national intelligence community. Not at all enthusiastic about her. Matt Gaetz is the big one, though, in the sense that he's the one that I think just sort of blew everybody's top off. He's not qualified for the job, which is fine. We talked about this attorney General job, right? Yeah, we talked about this in our newsletter today. You know, the classic example that I'm sure we'll hear a lot from Republicans and you know, I think rightfully so, is like, you know, JFK nominated his 35 year old brother who had never tried a court case to be Attorney General. And Bobby Kennedy was actually a pretty good Attorney General. He did a lot of stuff that today was and is supported by people from across the political spectrum, including, but not limited to prosecuting the Teamsters, going after the Ku Klux Klan. I mean, he, he had what a lot of people believe was a successful tenure. So I'm not questioning the Matt Gaetz thing because he's inexperienced, though he is. And I would prefer it with somebody with more and different experience. I question it because the guy is like an ethical vacuum. I don't really know how to say it. I know there are people who probably support him and love him because he supports Trump who listen to this podcast. That's fine. I think he actually is a really fantastic surrogate for Trump. I think a lot of liberals imagine Matt Gaetz, like walking around with a clown nose on or something. The guy is not a clown. He's smart, he's incredibly articulate. He, as a, you know, someone who's prosecuting the conservative case on issues, as a member of the House Judiciary Committee, has been extremely effective. You can go watch a 20 minute interrogation that he levels against Merrick Garland in a congressional hearing from a few months ago. He is very good at what he does and I think he's a very smart guy. I do not think he's an idiot. I don't think he's a clown. I think that he's has a well known reputation for being deeply unethical in lots of different ways. And a lot of conservatives say that and a lot of people who work in D.C. say it on the record and many, many more of them say it off the record. And I'll just say that, that like you can throw a rock randomly and hit somebody who has a story about Matt Gaetz doing something really gross and sleazy during his time in Congress. And I know there are these allegations against him about, you know, underage girls and drug use and parties and all this stuff. I'll just say based on everything I know that I've read on the record and heard off the record, I would not be surprised at all if many of those allegations are true. I don't trust him, not even one bit. But I don't not understand. I'm not incapable of understanding why he was picked. And it seems like a lot of people are. And that's kind of what I want to talk about a little bit is just like this narrative that I'm seeing bubbling up from a lot of really smart people. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.
- [10:29]
Jonathan Fields
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- [11:01]
Merrill Advisor
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- [11:50]
Isaac Saul
I'm going to read something from Ezra Klein. Who, what do we, what do you say about Ezra Klein? I listen Ezra Klein's podcast. I think he is really tapped into Democratic politics and he's, you know, he's a former policy reporter and he is really, really good on public policy. I think he gets stuff wrong pretty regularly about just sort of like the narrative and the culture of the country and where we are. I think he's detached and divorced from realities about America. But he's an incredibly good policy reporter and he is, in my view, someone who is really, really well connected in the Democratic movement and is incredibly influential there and I think played a not insignificant role in Joe Biden dropping out of the presidential race this year because of his position that that was the right thing to do and how he articulated it and how many influential people trust and listen to him as a voice.
- [12:58]
Ari Weitzman
He's a titan of thought in the center and center left of the U.S. absolutely.
- [13:04]
Isaac Saul
He said the Gates domination is so off the wall that I half believe he's sacrificial. So Senate Republicans will give an easier time confirming, will get an easier time confirming all the other questionable picks having shown their independence by icing Gates. And then this narrative just sort of took off on, you know, in the kind of punditry world. And I saw so many smart people saying one of two things. One, that Gates resigned from Congress to avoid this, the results of this ethics probe coming out. So the context there is we found out that a House Ethics committee was about to release a report on all these allegations, not just sexual misconduct stuff, but it sounds like genuine corruption and mishandling of campaign funds to various things, ethics violations. And because Gates resigned, he the, the committee can no longer release that report to the public because they don't have jurisdiction over him. So the narrative goes, Gates resigned to protect himself from this ethics report. Trump's going to appoint him knowing that he's not going to, you know, get confirmed and then he gets this graceful exit from Congress and he'll probably pick up some other lobbying job or like a non Senate confirmed job in the b. In the, in the Trump administration. I think this is all preposterous and I think it is hilarious that this is what some people think is going on. I don't really know. I'm going to try to put this as clearly as I possibly can. Donald Trump was elected in 2016 and was immediately the subject of an FBI investigation, the Department of Justice basically probing his entire campaign and him allegations that he was a Russian asset that he was, you know, going to Moscow and peeing on hookers. And I mean, literally, like, everything from the most sordid to the most fantastical, just like literally right hand man for Putin, and this is a Russian takeover of US Government. They turned his life inside out, upside down. And to be clear, I think Trump invited some of this on himself by bringing people like Paul Manafort, who were genuinely corrupt kleptocrats in his campaign. But it happened then. He left office in 2020 and immediately became the subject of DOJ investigations by the Biden administration. The classified documents case he brought on himself. The January 6th case, I think you could make a very strong argument, was a sort of Frankenstein of US Law. And in many ways, Jack Smith was reaching in ways that he really shouldn't have, and that's probably why we didn't get a trial or any kind of determination on Trump's guilt before the election. But regardless of what you think, like, the last eight years of his life have been made hell by the Department of Justice. He didn't pick Gates because he's some sacrificial lamb that he's going to feed to the wolves. He picked Gates because he's been the subject of what he believes is this corruption, deep state that has tried to destroy his life and his presidency. This is not complicated. That he could not be clearer about his view that he's the subject of a witch hunt, that these are the most corrupt, nasty, gross, disgusting people in the world, that the deep state tried to take him down. They tried to kill him. They tried to assassinate him, they tried to put him in jail. They failed. He won the presidency. He's thr. Like, Gates is a grenade. And Trump pulled the pin and he's rolling it into the doj. He does not care about Gates qualifications. He doesn't care about his ethics probe. He doesn't care about giving Gates, like, a nice exit. Donald Trump cares about giving Matt Gaetz a, you know, a nice exit from Congress. Give me a break. None of that matters to him. He doesn't care about any of that stuff. He wants to blow the thing up. People think he's. It's like the same thing we did during his first term, like 4D chess. Like, what's Trump's move? Who's he really going to pick for ag? It's not chess. He's literally telling you his move. He's doing it in the open. He's saying, bring it. He's testing the boundaries. He wants to see what Senators are loyal to him and who aren't. And if he can, he's going to appoint Matt Gaetz and that would be like an incredible coup for him. He would have somebody leading a department that has traditionally been independent from the executive branch with a complete and total loyalist who owes his entire career to him. I mean, there's nothing better for Trump in that than that outcome. So I can't wrap my head around why people are having trouble. Like, maybe because that is scary to people like Ezra Klein. And they are, they don't want to believe that, but it's like, what are you missing? Like, how are you professional at this? And you still can't see what is so obvious to me, which is like, this is Trump's governing style, for better or for worse. Sometimes it's great and I love it, sometimes it's not. And this is one of the times I don't love it. But like, Gates is the blunt force object to go over there and smash heads. This is not 4D chess. Like, please wake up.
- [19:04]
Ari Weitzman
I think the. So I've got two places where I think I can jump in here and think of things from the viewpoint of the only way I can make sense of this pick of Matt Gaetz for AG is that there's some sort of secret back move. So I'm with you. First of all, that I think the primary goal of nominating Matt Gaetz for AG is so Matt Gaetz can be the ag. He's definitely a loyalist. He has a law degree. He's been a member of the US House of Representatives. He's a hardliner. He's been in the House Freedom Caucus visibly and supported Trump. He's a pick that Trump would want in that office for sure. I think the place where it gets confusing two places. First of all, Trump sort of opened this round of nominations with saying we need recess appointments, something we talked about in the newsletter today. On Thursday, there's this concept of recess appointments. What is it as a strategy? How does it work? And one of the basic mechanisms at play here of in order to avoid a Senate confirmation for high level appointments to the executive branch like Attorney General, you can do that by getting the Senate to go on recess and then appointing your nominee while they're on recess. So that avoids the confirmation. However, in order to do that, the House has to be in recess for or the Senate has to be in recess for at least 10 days. And any recess the Senate wants to call for more than three days is subject to an up, down, approval of the majority of the Senate as well as the majority of the House. And if this recess appointment thing is seen as Trump's strategy, that means any call to recess in the Senate is going to be seen in the House as a sort of omnibus. Do you want to approve of all of these nominees? Yes, no vote. In which case the House, where Matt Gaetz isn't the most popular person, I think it's fair to say he wouldn't probably have the votes to be confirmed by the House. And since this is a de facto sort of confirmation, yes, no in the House, if they want to approve the Senate's recess, that probably wouldn't pass. So if you're in the position of a person like Ezra Klein or somebody who's an informed political pundit, and you're on the sidelines looking at this, you're thinking, all right, so that's not going to work, so why would you do it? And you're trying to come up with answers that make sense to you. I think the answer that makes the most sense is Trump's playing every strategy at once. I think that's a thing that he's done before is to say we need reassess appointments, because that's one way for me to get my agenda, but also we need sending confirmations. And I'm going to be doing. I'm going to be talking about Matt Gaetz on one hand, but I'm also going to be talking about Tulsi Gabbard on the other, and I'm going to be talking about Hegseth for secdeath. And we're going to be moving on so fast that it's going to be the next thing. The next thing. Maybe one of them sticks, maybe one of them doesn't. And I think it's that bull rush strategy, not this. Like, I'm going to set up my move and advance strategy. So I think I understand where the point of view is coming from, but I think that's where the miss Is. And the second thing that I'm thinking about there is you also want to consider we're thinking about this from Trump's point of view, but I think you also want to consider Matt Gaetz's point of view, because very, very clearly, Matt Gaetz does get something out of being nominated right now. He gets to resign from the House. That buys some time with this report not being released to the public, and that's something that obviously benefits him. I don't think that Trump is having that be part of his calculus here too much. Maybe Gates asked And maybe Trump's like, yeah, I will nominate you now. I don't know, maybe that happened. Hard to say, but I think you could say that's Gates motivation. And if Gates is looking at the writing of the wall and he sees maybe I'm not going to win, that's fine with me. We'll go on to the next pick. I can understand that. So those two things kind of make sense to me. And, you know, I get where it's coming from.
- [23:29]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.
- [23:35]
Jonathan Fields
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- [23:37]
Isaac Saul
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- [23:39]
Jonathan Fields
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- [23:43]
Isaac Saul
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- [23:45]
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- [23:47]
Jonathan Fields
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- [23:50]
Isaac Saul
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- [23:53]
Jonathan Fields
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- [24:03]
Claude AI
Or dsw.com hi, this is Jonathan Fields, host of the Good Life Project, where each week I talk to listeners about investing in their future by increasing their own vitality. But when it comes to those financial goals, whether it be saving for a home renovation, growing your child's college fund or travel, life can make it difficult to stay the course. By working with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Having the bullet your back helps your whole financial life move with you. So when your plans change, Merrill's with you every step of the way. Go to ML.combullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company. What would you like the power to do? Investing involves risk. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Incorporated. Registered broker, dealer, registered investment advisor Member, sipc.
- [24:53]
Isaac Saul
I mean, I think that again, for Matt Gates, this is genuinely like, I mean, calling it best case scenario for him is, is the understatement of the year. Like he, he was probably not gonna lose his House seat anytime soon. But all indications are this ethics report was going to be damning. We've seen Republicans vote people like George Santos out of Congress amid ethics reports like this or ethics reports that had some, you know, some weight to them. I just like, yeah, it's nutty to me that he, that he's, you know, a few votes away from this role. I really don't know what the Senate's gonna do. For whatever it's worth, I think Collins, Murkowski are almost certainly no votes. Senator John Cornyn, I saw today Saying things that made it sound like he was a no vote, though I'd be a little bit surprised if he stuck to that. And that's three right there. So you've got like, a tiebreaker already. The Oklahoma senator, whose name is escaping me right now for some reason, who, like, very famously went on cnn described Matt Gaetz showing him videos of, like, women he had sex with and talking about snorting erectile dysfunction, drugs or something and like staying up all night. I mean, this guy clearly hated Gates and spoke to the press about this stuff because he hated him. Someone like that.
- [26:38]
Ari Weitzman
Mark Wayne Mullen.
- [26:38]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, yeah, Mark Wayne Mullen. Sorry. Thank you. Someone like that is just. There are just people like that who are in the Senate who you don't think about as being swing votes on this issue that I think are going to try and win him over. Hilariously, I saw Lindsey Graham do this unbelievable post on X, just like basically talking about how consistent he's been throughout his career, which is like the funniest thing ever. He is the most inconsistent, maybe biggest flip flopper in all of Congress. And his loyalty to Trump is like exhibit A in that. But just, yeah, saying that, you know, he's probably gonna rubber stamp all of Trump's nominees because that's what he does in nomination for any precedent, which is just like, no, that's not what you do. You haven't done that. And I can't believe. Yeah, he, he had a quote. I actually should pull it up. He had an incredible line about how he described his, his career. I have strived to be consistent over the arc of time is a real thing that Lindsey Graham said.
- [27:50]
Ari Weitzman
I just, it's very poetic.
- [27:53]
Isaac Saul
It's so good. I, and I'm not, you know, I know you could react this way to a lot of politicians, but like Lindsey Graham, especially speaking about himself that way, is just so rich to me. It's kind of hard to put in a word. So anyway, I, I don't know what's going to happen. If I was a betting man, I would bet that he's not going to get confirmed. But I could see a world where a lot of these senators don't want to start a fight with Trump before he even gets into office. I'm not going to read it, though. I'm tempted to read from it. I'm not going to, but I'm tempted to read from it. Is this Ben Dominic piece in his substack, the Transom, which gave me pause mostly because Ben Dominic is somebody who is, you know, he was Co founder of the Federalists. He was editor at large of the Spectator World, two very, very influential hubs of conservative thought. He published a newsletter. The headline of it is Matt Gaetz is a vile sex pest. And any senator who votes for him owns that. And the subhead is crush some Viagra and pour the Red Bull in your veins. I, I'll just say I don't know that I've ever read a piece published by a prominent journalist or pundit about a sitting member of Congress that is as aggressive and like over the top critical as this piece by Ben Dominic. It's a jarring read. And I think he might be right is the crazy part is like I think maybe he's just having the chutzpah to say the thing that's real that a lot of people know, which is that like maybe this guy is kind of like a sleazy, low key sex offender pretty much based on the reporting we have about him. I again, Ben Dominic is way to my right. He is like as conservative as it gets. And I was just shocked that he published this piece because I think there's a really decent chance Matt Gaetz is the next Attorney General. And I'm sure it's going to piss off a lot of people in conservative politics that he did, but he's speaking his truth and yeah, it caught my attention. So I don't know any other Gates stuff you want to.
- [30:24]
Ari Weitzman
I mean, let's remember that we're sitting here in mid November. These confirmation hearings aren't going to be held for another two months. So Matt Gaetz has the sort of Sauron eye of the liberal press on him at the moment as well as the various floodlights like Ben Dominic. And the tangled news is what have you of the world focused on him for the moment. But in two months we're going to be talking about, oh yeah, Gates. Gates has some baggage. And that'll, that'll just be the way he's referred to. Gates has some baggage.
- [30:53]
Isaac Saul
Yeah.
- [30:53]
Ari Weitzman
If he gets to the confirmation hearing and we're going to be thinking about a dozen other posts because it's going to be firehose season when it gets to January and confirmation time and I can't even predict what other things are going to be in the spotlight and national attention by then. And there's a good chance that this dies away. And there's an equally good chance, I think, and I'm curious to hear what you think about this, that that ethics probe report gets leaked between now and then. If that happens, I Think you can say goodbye to the prospect of Matt Gaetz as an ag? It just, I know people have boldly made claims about this is the end of this politician before and nothing's come to light, especially in Trump world. But I think that just probably with the reputation already suspect would be a bridge too far and it could break either way, as far as I'm concerned.
- [31:49]
Isaac Saul
I would be absolutely shocked if the ethics report does not get leaked. I would be surprised if it doesn't get leaked today. I mean, I think there's almost a guarantee that we have it or at least the fundamentals of it in the coming couple weeks and maybe whoever has it holds on to it until right before the confirmation hearing. But like, yeah, the, they are going to get their hands on that because if they don't, like, if they don't, then there it'll come out during or right after the confirmation hearing and that'll be really bad for Republicans and they're going to want to know exactly who they're voting for. So, yeah, I mean, the House Ethics Committee leaks like a Steve and yeah, it's bad. So it'll be out sometime soon. Speaking of a little ironic, but yeah, yeah, there's sort of like a, there's sort of a subplot here that's pretty funny, which is, you know, we went into this week not knowing who the new Senate Majority leader is going to be. It turned out to be John Thune. There was a huge campaign on Twitter and in like online Republican, conservative, Trump, maga, world circles, Elon Musk, Vivek, Charlie Kirk, whatever to push Rick Scott. He got eliminated in the first round of voting. They, everybody was mo. Everybody in that world was most worried about John Dune. It's a secret ballot. Republicans don't care about what people on Twitter think. It's like, it was so funny to me that this was the narrative that Rick Scott was going to somehow come out of this. Senator Thunes like has the experience. He is well regarded, he's liked among his colleagues. He's, you know, he was up and that's just like how this stuff works in Congress. So it was not surprising to me at all that he won the selection to be Senate Majority Leader. I saw today that Shelly Moore Capito from West Virginia, she refused to say whether she'd support Matt Gaetz for Attorney General. When asked by Politico, she said no comment. Asked by Fox, she said he'll have to go through the Senate process. And then.
- [34:22]
John Wall
Hey, everybody, this is John, executive producer of YouTube and podcast content and co host of the Daily Podcast. I hope you enjoyed this preview of our Sunday podcast with Ari and Isaac. We are now offering this podcast exclusively to our Premium podcast members along with our ad, free daily podcasts, Friday editions, in depth interviews, upcoming new podcast series, bonus content, and much more. If you want to receive all that and give your support to help us grow Tangle Media, please head over to tanglemedia.supercast.com and sign up for a membership. If it's not the right time for you to sign up, please don't worry. Our ad supported Daily Podcast isn't going anywhere, but if it is in your ability to support by signing up for a membership, we would greatly appreciate it and we're really excited to share all of our premium offerings with you. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Lull signing off. Have a great day. Y'all.
- [35:23]
Ari Weitzman
Take care.
- [35:23]
Isaac Saul
Peace. Our podcast is written by me, Issac Saul and edited and engineered by John Wall. The script is edited by our Managing Editor, Ari Weitzman, Will Kabak, Bailey, Saul and Sean Brady. The logo for our podcast was designed by Magdalena Boa, who is also our Social Media Manager. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75 and if you're looking for more from Tangle, Please go to readtangle.com and check out our website.
- [36:06]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Hi, this is Farnoosh Tarabi, host of the Webp winning podcast Sow Money. If you're aiming for a goal, be it saving for a house, growing your family or retiring life makes it difficult to stay the course. But with a dedicated Merrill advisor, you get a personalized plan and a clear path forward. Having the bull at your back helps your whole financial life move with you. So when your plans change, Merrill's with you every step of the way. Go to ML.combullish to learn more. Merrill, a Bank of America company what would you like the power to do Investing involves risk Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Smith Inc. Registered Broker Dealer Registered Investment Advisor member.
- [36:44]
Isaac Saul
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- [37:07]
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- [37:16]
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