PREVIEW - The Sunday Podcast: Isaac, Ari, And Kmele talk about Kmele's appearance on CNN, Trump's tariffs, and Elon's departure.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Tangle – PREVIEW: The Sunday Podcast

Episode: PREVIEW - The Sunday Podcast: Isaac, Ari, And Kmele talk about Kmele's appearance on CNN, Trump's tariffs, and Elon's departure
Host/Author: Isaac Saul
Release Date: June 1, 2025

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1. Introduction

In this preview episode of Tangle's Sunday Podcast, host Isaac Saul engages in a dynamic discussion with Managing Editor Ari Weitzman and Editor at Large Camille Foster. The trio delves into recent political developments, focusing primarily on Camille's contentious appearance on CNN, the ongoing saga of Trump's tariff policies, and speculations surrounding Elon Musk's departure from his ventures.

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2. Camille Foster's CNN Appearance

Camille Foster recently participated in an intense panel discussion on CNN's Abby Phillips Show, where she found herself in a heated debate with Kevin O’Leary, famously known as Mr. Wonderful from Shark Tank. The conversation primarily revolved around the effectiveness and repercussions of the Trump administration's tariff policies.

Notable Quote:

“The economy is on fire. The economy is doing.”
— Camille Foster [05:58]

Camille recounted how the debate quickly escalated into a confrontational exchange, highlighting the challenges of maintaining substantive dialogue in a highly polarized media environment. She emphasized her role as a more nuanced voice on the panel, contrasting with other participants who held firm partisan stances.

Camille's Insights:

“I will say that I was perhaps the only person on the panel who wasn't a kind of dyed in the wool partisan. And there's a sense in which the takes you're going to get from me on various topics are going to be a little bit more nuanced...”
— Camille Foster [08:30]

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3. Trump's Tariff Policies and Judicial Rulings

The discussion shifted to the recent legal challenges facing Trump's tariff initiatives. A pivotal moment was the U.S. Appeals Court's decision to pause a ruling that struck down Trump's tariffs, effectively putting a temporary halt on their implementation.

Isaac Saul provided a detailed breakdown of the court's decision, noting the composition of the three-judge panel and their diverse appointments spanning Reagan, Obama, and Trump administrations. The ruling deemed that Trump lacked the authority to impose sweeping tariffs under existing emergency legislation from the 1970s.

Notable Quote:

“The legal problem with President Donald Trump's tariffs is that the United States has a constitution. And the Constitution says that Congress has the power to impose tariffs and the President doesn't.”
— Isaac Saul [25:19]

Camille Foster elaborated on the economic indicators, suggesting that unemployment rates are lagging and may not yet reflect the negative impacts of the tariffs. She also criticized the incomplete implementation of the tariffs and their dubious benefits, arguing that mutual losses from obstructed trade negate any potential gains.

Camille's Analysis:

“The reality is that unemployment is in fact a lagging indicator for the economy. And when the tariffs are announced, the stock market plummets immediately... we have a really weird situation where we went through weeks and weeks of uncomfortable uncertainty and we're still there.”
— Camille Foster [09:25]

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4. Economic Impact and Public Perception

The team discussed the tangible effects of the tariffs on small businesses and the broader economy. Isaac Saul highlighted social media as a platform where small business owners shared firsthand accounts of layoffs and economic struggles directly attributed to the tariff policies.

Isaac's Observations:

“People are doing this sort of performative thing where they're like, 'oh, look, we're in trouble. Buy my product,' just like literally announcing that their business was shutting down because of the implementation of these tariffs.”
— Isaac Saul [12:03]

These anecdotes underscore the real-world consequences of the administration's trade decisions, painting a picture of economic instability and loss of trust in institutional policies.

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5. Future Trajectory of Tariff Policies

The conversation then turned to potential next steps for the Trump administration in light of the court rulings. Ari Weitzman speculated on Trump's possible maneuvers, including appealing to the Supreme Court or seeking congressional approval to legitimize the tariffs. He expressed skepticism about both options, citing the unlikelihood of gaining Supreme Court support and the improbability of securing bipartisan backing in Congress.

Ari's Perspective:

“Another one of them that I'm reading about is this section 301 of the Trade Act, which allows the President to start an investigation into procedural groundwork to apply tariffs in countries that are taking advantage of the United States in some way.”
— Ari Weitzman [30:54]

Isaac Saul concurred, drawing parallels to past administrative strategies and expressing doubt about the administration's ability to navigate the legal and political hurdles ahead.

Isaac's Take:

“It just... the plain letter of the law question here looks so straightforward to me that I don't really understand how that could be the outcome.”
— Isaac Saul [32:36]

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6. Elon Musk's Departure and San Francisco School Board Proposal

While the primary focus was on tariffs and Camille's CNN stint, brief mentions were made regarding Elon Musk's exit from his current ventures and a controversial proposal from the San Francisco school board. Although detailed discussions on these topics were not extensively covered in this preview, they set the stage for deeper exploration in the full episode.

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7. Conclusion and Grievances

The preview concluded with the hosts expressing their frustrations with the current state of political discourse and media representation. They underscored the challenges of fostering meaningful conversations amid increasing polarization and sensationalism.

Camille Foster shared anecdotes about past media appearances, highlighting the performative nature of cable news debates and the ensuing personal grievances resulting from such encounters.

Camille's Reflection:

“Working in cable news and seeing how the sausage gets made, nothing will make you more cynical about the state of the media business than that.”
— Camille Foster [18:34]

The trio emphasized their commitment to providing balanced and nuanced perspectives on political issues, aiming to bridge gaps across the political spectrum.

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8. Final Notes

While this preview offers a glimpse into the upcoming full episode, listeners can anticipate an in-depth analysis of the discussed topics, including exclusive insights from Kmele's CNN appearance and the latest developments in political and economic arenas.

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Stay Tuned: For the complete conversation and additional content, subscribe to Tangle’s newsletter at readtangle.com or become a premium podcast subscriber.

Transcript

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[Isaac Saul]

All right, coming up, Camille goes on CNN and gets dragged into the mud. Courts strike down tariffs and maybe put them back on right as the show ends because I just saw an update that the US Appeals Court has paused that ruling. We talk about Doge Elon Musk and a new San Francisco school board proposal that I think is rife with insanity. But we hear some counterpoints as well. And then, as always, some grievances. It's a good one.

[Ericsson Representative]

From executive producer Isaac Saul. This is Tangle.

[Isaac Saul]

Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast. The place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent Thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul. I am here with Tangle Managing Editor Ari Weitzman and Tangle Editor at large Camille Foster. I'm still getting used to saying that. Fellas, how we doing today? Camille, you're fresh off a classic cable news hit, Brother.

[Camille Foster]

Yeah, yeah, I'm feeling. Feeling pretty good. A little tired, cuz Abby show tapes really late. Um, so didn't leave the building until a little after 11, so. Yeah, but good. How the hell are you?

[Ari Weitzman]

Pretty good. I'm good. My voice is a little. I'd say 80% maybe right now, after a long weekend of yelling at kids, which is my favorite hobby, um, coaching. College, Ultimate Frisbee. I don't know which one of those two things sounds sillier, but it's. It's affecting everybody listening. So hopefully Camille assured me that it sounds raspy and smooth in a sexy way and not like, in an audioly degrading way.

[Camille Foster]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Ari Weitzman]

Maybe not good enough to get me on cnn, though, with eight other people talking.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, I think. I think we should. I think we should actually start there. This is so for. I'd be curious. I mean, I haven't really checked our staff inbox today if anybody actually caught this, but Camille went on CNN last night. We're recording this on Thursday. So on Wednesday night at 10:00pm, Camille went on CNN. It's kind of hard to describe what happened or what the show even is. I mean, it. Yeah, I don't know. I have so many questions. All I know is that Mr. Wonderful, aka Kevin Leary, was sitting across from Camille. Uh, I'm a huge Shark Tank fan, so he'll just always be Mr. Wonderful to me. Um, debating some of the. Some of the tariff outcomes that we've observed in this second Trump administration. I think maybe a good table set before we ask Camille some questions is just if John, you could just drop in this vigilant Fox clip that was going around on Twitter. I think that's a good. Just to give people a little taste of. Of what was happening.

[Camille Foster]

Well, here's the question. What percentage of job loss is fine and. Okay, you're making an argument.

[Ericsson Representative]

At a time.

[Camille Foster]

Let me ask a question. That there have been absolutely no jobs lost because of the disruptions created by the tariffs.

[Isaac Saul]

Have you not looked at the other.

[Dani Pellegrino]

You better read.

[Camille Foster]

No, I'm asking a question.

[Isaac Saul]

We're almost saying full employment. Employment. What are you talking about? And that's what Trump was.

[Camille Foster]

That's an invasion.

[Ericsson Representative]

That's what he was hand.

[Isaac Saul]

American economy.

[Ericsson Representative]

Nobody is taking us.

[Camille Foster]

What is this job loss? The economy is on fire. The economy is doing.

[Ericsson Representative]

Damage. Damage to the American brand.

[Isaac Saul]

Okay, Camille, that sounded like a rather productive conversation about the efficacy of tariffs.

[Ari Weitzman]

Nuanced.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. How does this go down? What's it what like? Tell me about how. What's happening in the room. Actually not just what we see on tv.

[Camille Foster]

Yeah, I mean, well, this is Abby Phillips show on cnn, which I suspect most people have seen. I believe Abby's show might be the best rated show in primetime on cnn, if I'm not mistaken. Generally there's five panelists plus the host. And I think what Abby and her team have attempted to do that is laudable, like genuinely laudable, is create an environment where people are having serious strenuous disagreements, if not always substantive. Because I'm gonna be on the program and someone will be disagreeing with me. And it's hard to be substantive if you're disagreeing with me. Haha. See what I did there? But it's an interesting experience. There was a time not so long ago, within the last few years where it would be pretty unusual to have a robust debate about diversity and equity and inclusion. Diversity, equity and inclusion. In a cnn, on a CNN panel. And we talked about that for a good while. And the disagreement there was perhaps some of the most robust disagreement. But Abby's show being one where she's not always going around and asking everyone individually questions. They tell you, you know, we're having a conversation over dinner, just jump in. And it starts off calm and at some point you've got four or five people trying to talk. At the same time. It becomes this insane ca. And it has kind of the best and worst attributes of cable news in my estimation. But it's also just a challenging task to try to create these environments where you can have serious strenuous disagreement during this particularly polarized political moment. And everyone doesn't want to just kind of stab each other in the face, which again, I think they also do a good job of cultivating during the breaks. Everyone is talking to each other. They're not taking things overly personal. I will say that I was perhaps the only person on the panel who wasn't a kind of dyed in the wool partisan. And there's a sense in which the takes you're going to get from me on various topics are going to be a little bit more nuanced and are probably going to come at you in directions that you don't expect. And that's not always the case for some of my co panelists who, if you know that they are maga, they will find a way to say something supportive of maga, even in contexts where there really isn't much to say because it's very nearly indefensible. And that gets a bit weird. And for it to get shouty in a context where people are saying things that you suspect they can't actually believe, that's a little daunting to take. And I think that particular clip that everyone just heard is a great example of it. We're talking about the tariff policy, which I suspect we'll get into in a little bit more detail later in this conversation. And I mean, I'm asking a pretty pointed question. Is it your contention, since you're citing the current unemployment figures when talking about these tariffs and their impact and how the economy is just fine, everything is fine. Is it your contention that there were no jobs lost as a result of these tariffs being announced and creating profound economic uncertainty? And I couldn't get a straight answer to that.

[Ari Weitzman]

Did we ever get an answer to that during that conversation?

[Camille Foster]

No, there was no answer. There was no answer to that question. Because I suspect, and again, I'm speculating here, and this is a little self serving, but I suspect the reason Kevin didn't provide an answer to that is because there isn't a good answer, at least not one that's helpful to his side. The reality is that unemployment is in fact a lagging indicator for the economy. And when the tariffs are announced, the stock market plummets immediately. But what unemployment is going to do is a story that has to play out over a longer period of time. And the fact is that the terrorists were never fully implemented. And in a similar manner, all the various deals that the Trump administration was supposed to be brokering never fully materialized. So what we have is a really weird situation where we went through weeks and weeks of uncomfortable uncertainty and we're still there, to be totally honest. And it's not clear that there's been any durable achievement that the Trump administration can hang their hat on here at all. This seems to be like a almost textbook loss, loss or lose, lose situation for kind of the country broadly, for the administration perhaps in particular, and certainly for our various trading partners, because generally there are benefits to all parties from trade. And when you create obstructions to trade, there are generally mutual losses from that.

[Isaac Saul]

We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.

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[Isaac Saul]

I, I mean, the other thing too is that he, I mean, you sort of, you dealt with this a little bit on Twitter afterwards, posting, you know, some screenshots of articles about some of the job losses and stuff that have occurred. And there have certainly been these kind of large scale, you know, Volvo layoffs or Stellantis laying people off. The kind of stuff that really catches headlines. I mean, I think what maybe has impacted my view even more than that is actually being on Twitter as or X. As honestly awful as the platform has been for the last few months, one of the most valuable things that I've gotten out of it in recent memory has been these kind of personal anecdotes I've seen that have gone viral from small business owners. Just like, here is literally what's happening to my company right now with like screenshots of their books just like straight to camera. I am going to fire 15 people tomorrow because of this nonsensical tariff policy that like we literally can't navigate and we're too close on the margins to deal with. I mean, I, I would say there's been like 20 plus kind of threads like that. I'm not. People like doing this sort of performative thing where they're like, oh, we're in trouble. Buy my product. Just like literally announcing that their business was shutting down because of the implementation of these tariffs or just the uncertainty that they created. So it seems pretty, I don't know, to me at least like inarguable about some of the destruction that they've caused without any real clear upside. And we're going to talk in a second about just, you know, some of the latest news we've gotten. I think that pretty much came down as or right after you're on the show. Yeah, but I mean, yeah, there is like this sort of performative thing that happens in this interaction where Kevin's just saying the same thing over and over again, a little bit loud.

[Camille Foster]

Unemployment hasn't moved. The stock market is doing great.

[Ari Weitzman]

We are on fire. America's economy is.

[Ericsson Representative]

Are you.

[Isaac Saul]

I will say it was, it was nice to sort of see you degraded to like the cable knees. Yeah. I haven't really seen. I haven't seen you operating just because.

[Ari Weitzman]

It didn't say tango at the bottom. So that's why you liked it.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, yeah. Which is another problem.

[Camille Foster]

My degradation. Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

Makes you happy. Yeah, I watched that and I thought.

[Camille Foster]

There'S a name for that.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. Yeah. But no, I mean it's, it's, it's kind of indicative of just how hard that participating in that cable news Thunderdome type stuff is that even you, who I know you're just in a lot of ways allergic to having those kinds of conversations get dragged into it so easily. I'm wondering, like, I mean, I've done CNN hits, I've done one on one sort of Thunderdomes. I've never been on a panel like this where there's like 12 people. It seems totally unwieldy. I don't know how they do.

[Camille Foster]

I love how the number keeps going up every time. Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

32 people on panel is insane.

[Camille Foster]

Camille versus 30. 30 atheists.

[Ari Weitzman]

Jubilee video.

[Isaac Saul]

Like what happens after the cut? Are you in like, what's the post show vibe situation looking like in there with you and these panelists?

[Camille Foster]

Well, yeah, there's multiple cuts because this, we were on for. This is an hour long show. We were on for the entire hour together. So every break you essentially get a beat to kind of collect your thoughts. And sometimes it ends and there's silence while the commercials are going on. People are kind of scrolling through their phones. Other times the conversation continues. And I found those to be the kind of most, the most instructive moments. I thought there were some times where kind of Abby had more things to say afterwards, which again just made it very clear that she's really interested in the substance of the story and wants to get the facts right and is interested in trying to call balls and strikes in as sober a way as possible. And I think that's indicative of the broader change that's happened at media organizations like cnn in particular, that the first go round with the Trump administration. It would have been a fair criticism to say that they were pretty severely critical of the President of the United States. Now they're much more willing to have on advocates for the Trump administration. But I think also, and Abby is proof of this, willing to Say, well, no. I mean, maybe he shot the sheriff, but he didn't, in fact, shoot the deputy, which is Marley's razor.

[Ari Weitzman]

So many razors these days.

[Camille Foster]

That's the best one. That's the best one. I'm pretty sure I coined that.

[Ari Weitzman]

You're Marley?

[Camille Foster]

Yeah, I named it. I named it. So, yeah, it's an interesting thing. And then after it's over, generally, no one's mad at each other. But I do remember one of my very first media appearances was on Fox Business. I was with Charlie Gasparino and someone else, but Charlie, I remember in particular because on set, we had this. Violent is the word I want to use. But there were no fists thrown and no actual insults. But he was denigrating me, so. You would have loved this, Isaac. I mean, like, you're dumb. How could you believe that? That's so ridiculous. And I was getting increasingly angry because I don't usually participate in arguments with people where I'm not actually mad and I'm saying things as if I'm mad. And as soon as the segment was over, Charlie looks at me and says, that was great, and just walks away. And I am still fuming. And that was the day I learned that there is some theater involved here. And I could tell you other green room stories as well. Again, I wouldn't tell you the network, but situations where you're in the green room and you're prepping for a conversation, and the person who's in the green room with you is supposed to be your opponent, and they ask a question like, what is quantitative easing? Wait a minute. You're supposed to have an opinion on this, I'm on the other side of it, and you want me to give you talking points?

[Isaac Saul]

Okay, yeah.

[Camille Foster]

And she did proceed to participate in that conversation about quantitative easing and disagree with me publicly, which is insane. I mean, which is a generally bad idea. But when you have to ask me for insights about this, that's a problem. So, yeah, working in cable news and seeing how the sausage gets made, nothing will make you more cynical about the state of the media business than that. And a lot of these stories, again, like 2014 and before, it's not better. Now, let me just put it that way.

[Ari Weitzman]

I do call balls and strikes live. I mean, that's props to Abby for trying that. Seriously.

[Camille Foster]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

Not incidentally, by the way, Charles Gasparino sort of has been a major critic of the Trump tariffs.

[Camille Foster]

Oh, yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

So he agrees with you now, at least.

[Camille Foster]

Oh, yeah. Various things. Yeah. And Charlie's a nice guy. Like, we got to know each other a little bit after that. So I've been surprised.

[Isaac Saul]

He's been going hard on Twitter. I mean, he's, you know, still at Fox, and he's like a Fox Business senior correspondent. He's been going pretty hard on Trump. And I guess outside of this CNN hit, which I enjoyed watching, like, as we now know, for various reasons, I think it's, I think it's worth adding a little bit of substance here because I don't know. Were you on the show when this ruling came down last night, Camille?

[Camille Foster]

It was, it was maybe an hour and a half before, so I didn't have a chance to read the ruling. I did get to read some of the coverage about it, so I wasn't completely cold. But that's the other thing that happens. The subjects, the topics you're going to discuss change in some instances moments before you go on set and there is an expectation you'll have an opinion.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. Well, this podcast is going to come out on Sunday, and I think there's honestly a pretty good chance we cover this story in the Monday edition of Tangle. But if anybody is not caught up yet, it seems just worth briefly explaining that this three judge panel, a kind of obscure court, the Court of International Trade, has three appointees on it. One a Reagan appointee, one an Obama appointee, and one a Trump appointee. For whatever it's worth, those who like to keep track of that kind of thing effectively ruled that Trump does not have the authority to impose sweeping tariffs under this kind of 19, this 1970s era emergency legislation that he had cited. And the judges didn't just put an injunction in place, they said there was, they issued a summary judgment invalidating, blocking almost all of Trump's trade levies to date. And then after this bombshell ruling happened last night, on Wednesday night, this afternoon, a second federal court issued another major ruling against his tariff authority, which has more ramifications for the administration's kind of trade agenda. But the, the first one was the most notable. I think it caught the most interest from a lot of people. I mean, I, there's sort of like this funny thing that happened. I'm almost ashamed, honestly, in our coverage, that I didn't spend more time on just this question of, like, whether the terrorists would even survive. I mean, I think we offhandedly said like, oh, they might be illegal. But in retrospect, now that this ruling is here, it's like, oh, this was so obviously going to happen. And I love this. There's, you know, Matt Levine, who's one of my favorite writers in the world, he is a total inspiration for me, writes for Bloomberg and has this opinion column, money Stuff, which is just latent with his personality. And he opens a piece on the tariff ruling this way. He says the legal problem with President Donald Trump's tariffs is that the United States has a constitution. And the Constitution says that Congress has the power to impose tariffs and the President doesn't. And this is just like, oh, yeah, and you're reading it and you're reading the ruling and it's like, yeah, this isn't some weird technicality. The Constitution just says, literally, the Constitution has the power to land, collect taxes, duties, impose excises, to regulate commerce with foreign nations. And, you know, there is this law from the 1970s that gives the President these emergency powers. But the, the, the theory of what Trump was putting forward was basically every trade deal we've made in the last, I don't know, three or four decades constituted some unusual emergency. Like, just, it's like the definition is just totally undermined by the facts. Like, these are an unusual emergencies if they're literally the trade policies that are the most common thing touching all of our trade over the last several decades. And so I kind of feel like there's just like, almost like an idiot, like, I took my eye off the ball and just missed this larger question of it was obvious that this part was coming in retrospect, now that it's here, but it does feel like a really nice summation of some of the things we've seen with Trump. I mean, I just saw this morning, the universities who are challenging his, or, excuse me, the law firms who are challenging his sort of like, you know, pressure campaigns against them are now 30 in court against him. The ones who actually stood up and didn't bend the knee. And now this tariff thing is just totally on hold. This massive landmark policy that is like the thing that was supposed to define his economic agenda is sort of halted dead in its tracks. And I guess tariffs are now not. At least these tariffs are now not a thing foreign. We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.

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[Isaac Saul]

I'm curious to hear your guys reaction to this ruling and sort of what, what sort of thoughts it evokes for you. Because it seems like a pretty major moment in this whole thing, I think.

[Ari Weitzman]

It'S worth editing quickly to say we, we did say we're not sure if these are going to stand like pretty much consistently. It was always the background thread to me was these are the tariffs Trump is issuing using this emergency power for now. Because it's pretty clearly a stretch to use this emergency power this way, just in a different sense, but very similar to how Biden was stretching to use the emergencies powers that he had to say the Heroes act from 911 was going to allow him to forgive all these student loans. So this was always something that was on a legal footing that was pretty tenuous to begin with. So we're sort of waiting for the bolt from the blue that was going to come to rocket and I have what I think for me personally in my personal canon, a tweet that's going to live in infamy, which came from July 8, 2019. I just want to read it to you, Camille, and see what you think about it.

[Camille Foster]

Oh boy.

[Ari Weitzman]

Tell me, tell me why you think this is relevant. Because talk about a bolt from the blue again. July 8, 2019. I'm going to withhold the tweeter's name for a second.

[Camille Foster]

Okay.

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[Camille Foster]

I don't know. That is so out of left field.

[Ari Weitzman]

Yeah, it is from a small winery in upstate New York called Vos Selections, brought a lawsuit against the United States that ended up being heard by the court and became v. U.S. elections versus the United States, where that three judge panel issued a ruling saying, yeah, Donald Trump doesn't have these powers, like the emergency powers are being abused here because of this winery that last tweeted six years ago. And I'm, I'm watching to see how the thread of comments to this one tweet is going to evolve because it's anyone's guess, that's the real story here. That's the headline.

[Camille Foster]

I love that. Well, there's no question that if they're involved in this particular industry, they do have some standing because if you trade stuff with anyone outside of the borders of the United States, because they do probably outstanding. You know, it's pretty remarkable to watch this. And I would say, Isaac, I can remember us talking about these issues in fairly real time around the time that Liberation Day was happening and before. So it may have even happened on this podcast at some point. But, yeah, we'd been waiting to see how the legal challenges would play out. The Trump administration has had a lot of bad luck. There's a sense in which Trump has kind of brought this old, rather old for him, habit of engaging in these, like, nuisance lawsuits, his kind of slip and fall approach to trying to get things done.

[Ari Weitzman]

Certainly the case slapping the Congress around, as it were.

[Camille Foster]

Yeah, it's certainly the case that the lawsuit, for example, against CBS that is still very much playing out is one of these cases where if it were actually to go to trial, it might be expensive for everyone, more expensive for CBS than for Donald Trump, but he would almost certainly lose that case. And I think that the grounds, the justifications for this were always highly dubious. In fact, the panel discussion that we were going to have, as I mentioned, this was something that happened maybe an hour before we went on air and they changed the topic. The topic we were going to discuss before that was this media scrum that took place after Jeanine Pirro of Fox was sworn in as DC's new top prosecutor. There were a bunch of questions leveled there. And one of the questions was about Donald Trump and the tariffs. And he went on to give this exposition of how he's gotten the better of his trading partners. And it was always him kind of a negotiating tactic to raise the tariff and then raise it again and then just eliminate it, because the goal wasn't ever to institute the tariffs. It was always to get some other kind of abstract, more abstract goal with respect to better trade terms. In which case you're acknowledging that this wasn't really an emergency at all, ever, which does understand whatever justification you would have had. Which apparently doesn't even matter. But he made that acknowledgement yesterday before these rulings came down. So I do think that that is clearly, this whole thing is just indicative of their general approach to governance, which in many instances appears to be, we will do a bunch of things. Most of it won't actually stick or have any kind of durable consequence, but our supporters will give us credit for at least trying, which. That's a weird way to govern if you actually believe the policies that you are pursuing are the best possible thing for the American people. Because, I mean, there are two things that could happen here. The Trump administration just tries to kind of circumvent these rulings or appeals to a different court. So that's one way for them to move forward. The other is to try to go to Congress to get these tariffs passed in the way that one would expect when you have both houses of Congress. The only problem for Donald Trump is Republicans have never loved these tariffs. Republican Congresspeople have generally been averse to tariffs. They hadn't been excited about the extraordinary breadth of the tariffs that the Trump administration had been pursuing, and some of them had been vocally critical of these tariffs. And I just can't imagine these people wanting to have their fingerprints all over the gun with respect to a really bad policy that, at this point, everybody knows you don't actually mean it.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, it seems like there's basically one of two outcomes here. One is that Trump goes to the Supreme Court. The Trump administration takes this to the Supreme Court and wins a case that I feel like there is zero chance they win. I don't. Again, it just. The plain letter of the law question here looks so straightforward to me that I don't really understand how that could be the outcome. I'm sure there's a lot of people on the left who are, you know, believe the court's totally corrupt. I think they've proven that they're not. And we've seen them sort of break in surprising ways, even with this sort of 6:3 conservative majority against the Trump administration. So I just don't see that happening. And then, yeah, to your point, the only other option is that Trump manages to get Congress to give him this authority. And on that, it's just like there just aren't 60 Senate Republicans who are gonna allow green light this from Trump and put their name on this when, you know, many of them are gonna be serving long past Trump being in office. And if they believe what it seems like, a lot of them believe that there's economic risk to this. They're just not going to do it. I mean, it does. It's funny. It kind of reminds me of the sort of contradiction that's happening with the border stuff right now, too, where Trump is simultaneously boasting about how they've completely closed down the border in three months, which they kind of have. Like, the illegal border crossings are at historic lows, and then also saying there's this invasion that necessitates an emergency that means we must grant Trump all this power. It's like, well, actually, those two things can't totally coexist. So.

[Camille Foster]

Yeah. And the numbers were falling before he even took office. The moment he was elected, the flow of immigration was halted. And quite frankly, that's probably the single most clear victory for the Trump regime, is the fact that they've been able to get immigration under control across the southern border and pretty quickly without doing almost anything after that. The. The record looks a hell of a lot more dodgy for them.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. I mean, which, by the way, only really matters if they do something. They take advantage of the moment and do something about the massive backlog of millions of people who need their cases adjudicated, which so far, they have not seemed to lay out any plan for handling that, aside from trying to round everybody up and deporting them. You know, it's just a thing I've been constantly banging my head against. The wall on is like, we have this now. We have this moment where the border's under control and we should do something to handle this massive backlog, but nobody's really doing it. I want to just one last thing about the terror stuff that, I mean, just made me sort of laugh was I saw Peter Navarro get interviewed after the ruling came out or got quoted by Bloomberg, and he just said, if anybody thinks this caught the administration by surprise, think again. Nothing's really changed, period. And I'm like, what? What? Nothing's. Nothing's changed. Like, the US Court of International Trade just said that you can't impose these tariffs, and now you can't impose the tariffs, and they can't. I mean, it's like that is. They will. They just. There's no mechanism for them to do that now. So I guess they're just gonna push forward, and they assume that down the road they're gonna win this legal case. But I don't really. I think everything has changed. I think, you know, the. The thing to me that's going to be really interesting and that is really frustrating about all this, is I spilled personally, and a lot of writers have spilled a lot of ink talking about what the impact of these tariffs would be. And you know, I think I said something a few months ago like if this turns out to work, if the tariffs actually, you know, they, they aren't inflationary and they onshore jobs back to the US and they raise a bunch of revenue and they don't cause a massive recession, this will be like the biggest dent, almost bigger than Covid. Maybe not, not as quite, but like the biggest dent in trust in institutions and the kind of mainstream. Because there's just been so, it's been so, so, so clear from the kind of consensus expert, whatever talking at opinions that this was going to be really devastating, aside from a few, you know, the Orin Casses and stuff out there. But now we're not even getting the controlled experiment like we, we're not getting the real thing because the tariffs have just been on again, off again. They haven't really been implemented here. He's been starting and stopping. Now they're being, and now all this economic stuff is about to happen and everybody's going to judge it as if we got the tariffs and what were the outcomes. And we're going to have to deal with this awful, infuriating commentary that's like, oh, look, you know, the job losses haven't really hit and GDP is growing and inflation hasn't come and, and all that happened despite the tariffs. So everybody, all the experts were wrong once again. It's going to be like, well, not really, because this agenda just keeps getting delayed or stopped in various ways. So I'm very much not looking forward to that. I think it's going to drive me insane potentially.

[Ari Weitzman]

Well, I don't think that's going to happen, actually. So there's maybe good news. I do think that tariffs are going to get imposed because there's more than one way to skin a constitution. I guess the justification under emergency powers, that's not real, like that's not going to happen. But part of the opinion that the court issued here was saying, yeah, the President does have powers to issue tariffs under what was section 122 of the Trade act of 1974 saying you can issue tariffs on any country of up to 15% for up to 150 days since Trump hasn't used that justification for the reciprocal, the quote, unquote, reciprocal tariffs. Very easy to theorize that he's going to do that. Now they'll say you have to stop these tariffs. All right, here's another executive order. If I were to Bet I'd say that's what's going to happen. And we'll have another 150 days, which will buy him time to use a different mechanism to impose tariffs. And there are different mechanisms to do that. Another one of them that I'm reading about is this section 301 of the Trade act groundwork, which allows the President to start an investigation into procedural groundwork to apply tariffs in countries that are taking advantage of the United States in some way. That, I mean, maybe is something that could also stand the test of a court, if it's something that Trump wanted to do. So the only thing still that is going to be preventing Trump, I think, is courts, the flexibility of increasingly probably utilizable laws. I think there will be some. And his desire to not break the market and say, I did good, I think that remains the. The best justification or the best mechanism we have is Trump saying, like, wanting to be able to claim, like, no, I'm just negotiating. Let me negotiate. And I honestly believe it's going to keep happening. It would be great if the court's like, yeah, you can't do this. And he's like, my bad, I'll stop. But I don't think that's going to carry out.

[Isaac Saul]

I think that's fair. I think they're. I mean, Navarro said himself that they were going to try and use the section 122 to impose these temporary tariffs. I guess it's just maybe more. My point is the way that the debate was initially happening was this, you know, around the vision that Trump was putting forward on what the sheriffs would look like and how they would be imposed and for how long, and that we would, you know, they were not going to back down. It would be permanent. You know, we just. And, and we haven't gotten any of that. We've. What we've gotten is the start and start and stop. We've gotten the, you know, the kind of on again, off again. The date for the tariffs to kick in comes, and then he delays it.

[Ari Weitzman]

Taco train.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah.

[Camille Foster]

Well, I don't know if you saw Taco Trump.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, Taco Trump. For those of you who are not as online, and I bless your hearts if you don't know, there's this new kind of hashtag going around, which is that Trump always chickens out. Taco. Hashtag Taco and.

[John Law]

Hey, everybody, this is John, executive producer for Tangle. I hope you enjoyed this preview of our Sunday podcast with Ari and Isaac. If you are not currently a newsletter subscriber or a premium podcast subscriber and you are enjoying this content and would like to finish it, you can go to retangle.com and sign up for a newsletter subscription or you can sign up for a podcast subscription or a bundled subscription which gets you both the podcast and the newsletter and unlocks the rest of this episode as well as ad free daily podcasts, more Friday editions, Sunday editions, bonus content, interviews and so much more. Most importantly, we just want to say thank you so much for your support. We're working hard to bring you much more content and more more offerings. So stay tuned. I will join you for the daily podcast on Monday. For the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a fantastic weekend y' all. Peace.

[Isaac Saul]

Our Executive Editor and Founder is me, Isaac Saul and our Executive Producer is John Wall. Today's episode was edited and engineered by John Wall. Our Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey, Saul, Lindsey Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75 and John Law. And to learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our [e-mail].

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