Loading summary
Transcript42 lines
- [00:00]
Advertiser
This Mother's Day. Show the moms in your life just how much they mean to you with A stunning bouquet from 1-800-flowers.com for almost 50 years, 1-800-flowers has set the standard for high quality bouquets. Right now, order early from 1-800-FLOWERS and save up to 40% on gorgeous bouquets and one of a kind arrangements guaranteed to make her day. Save up to 40% today at 1-800-flowers.com acast that's 1-800-Flowers.com acastra, the official florist of Mother's Day.
- [00:30]
Will K. Back
We all belong outside.
- [00:32]
Advertiser
We're drawn to nature.
- [00:33]
Will K. Back
Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the.
- [00:37]
Advertiser
Succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about.
- [00:44]
Will K. Back
Our busy lives removed from it, but the outdoors is closer than we realize. With AllTrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation.
- [00:56]
Advertiser
Download the free app today.
- [01:01]
Greg Lukianoff
Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom. You realize you're missing a part. It's okay, because, you know, whatever it is, it's on ebay. They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes. Whatever you need. And it's guaranteed to fit. Which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you've ordered the right thing. All the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. Ebay Things People Love.
- [01:38]
Advertiser
From executive producer.
- [01:39]
Will K. Back
Isaac Saul this is Tangle.
- [01:52]
Isaac Saul
Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place where you get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Stahl. If you have followed the controversies around free speech and cancel culture on college campuses over the past decade, you've probably heard of fire, the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. The group is a non profit civil liberties organization that was originally founded with a mission of protecting free speech rights on college campuses. But recently it has broadened its focus to freedom of speech issues throughout American society. In the mainstream press, FIRE is sometimes described as a conservative or libertarian organization, but that label feels short sighted sometimes. While the group has defended countless conservative students, teachers, and organizations in cases involving freedom of speech, it's also defended progressive causes and figures. In fact, at this moment, it's involved in the challenges to Mahmoud Khalil's deportation and is defending Iowa pollster Ann Selzer against a consumer fraud lawsuit brought by President Trump in response to her infamous Iowa poll that showed Kamala Harris ahead in the state in the final days of the 2024 election. The First Amendment, what it means and who it applies to. It's at the center of some of the most controversial issues in the United States today. So we thought it would be a perfect opportunity to talk to Greg Lukianoff, FIRE's president and a First Amendment legal expert. Greg is a co author of the Coddling of the American Mind with Jonathan Haidt and the Canceling of the American Mind with Ricky Schlott. And he spent his career talking, writing and thinking about free speech and US Society. In this moment in our country, where I believe free speech rights are under attack from this current administration, and in many ways we're under attack from the previous administration, I thought it would be a great time to have Greg on the show, and I envisioned the conversation would focus primarily on the high profile cases is involved with at the moment. But as Will K. Back directed the interview and talked with Greg, it turned into a conversation covering considerably more ground, touching on the history of free speech rights in America, the downstream effects of the Trump administration's legal actions against colleges and law firms and individuals, and whether FIRE is taking up the mantle of organizations like the American Civil Liberties Union that now seem to be driven more by political considerations than free speech principles. Will K. Back, our senior editor, sat down with Greg Lukianoff to talk about all of this and more. I thought it was an excellent conversation and we're excited to bring it to you here. So without further ado, here's Will's conversation with Greg Lukianoff.
- [04:45]
John Law
All right, Greg, thanks so much for joining the podcast.
- [04:48]
Will K. Back
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [04:49]
John Law
So I think to start for our listeners and our audience who aren't familiar with the work that you do and the work that could you just give a high level overview of the kinds of issues you focus on and kind of the guiding principles of the organization.
- [05:02]
Will K. Back
Sure Fire just celebrated its 25th anniversary. I've been here for about 23 of them. I am a First Amendment specialized constitutional lawyer and we're about 120, 130 person team now that focuses on defending freedom of speech for the whole country. We used to focus just on higher ed, but then several years ago, we expanded to defend speech both on and off campus. But unfortunately, campuses keep trying to drag us back in by having either ridiculous cases originating from campus or ridiculous cases originating from the current Trump administration. So we're busy.
- [05:44]
John Law
Yeah, I can only imagine. And I have a question. I think you raised that point of maybe some of the speech issues that have been happening on college campuses before the Trump administration. Maybe some of the different issues we're seeing come up now that I wanted to get to in a little bit. But just for you personally, I know this is obviously something. Free speech issues are something that you've worked on for your entire career. I'm curious what drew you to this issue, to really make this the focus of your work, and what maybe some of the principles you personally hold are around this issue of free speech? Because I know that many people have different conceptions of exactly what that means.
- [06:18]
Will K. Back
Oh, sure. I mean, I worry about Americans sometimes because how consistently I find the people. People who are the most adamant about freedom of speech are people like me who has. My grandfather fought in the Bolshevik Revolution. My dad was a refugee to the United States. I grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of kids who were fleeing either communism in China or authoritarianism in South America or communism in Korea. They had a lot of experience with totalitarian regimes. None of us took free speech for granted. And so it was a really important cause for all of us. I also grew up in the 80s and 90s when free speech law and free speech culture were kind of like on ascent. So I went to law school specifically to study the First Amendment. I took every class that Stanford offered on freedom of speech. When I ran out, I did six credits on censorship. During the Tudor Dynasty, I interned at the ACLU of Northern California. I mean, this isn't just my career passion. This is my life's passion. And I think it is a. I think we got spoiled to a degree because free speech was so well protected in the United States that we kind of forgot what it looks like when you start to lose it.
- [07:35]
John Law
When I was preparing for the interview, I listened to another interview you had done, I think, last year, where you talked about some of the differences in conception of free speech between the United States and Europe. And you talked about this bedrock principle that we have in the United States around speech. And I'd love to just hear you kind of explain your thought There's. And outline how we have a little bit of a different conception of free speech that maybe is, I think, in your words, more right than they have it in Europe.
- [08:00]
Will K. Back
Yeah, well, there's this thing that constitutional lawyers do is when we go to Europe, we have a tendency to bash our own Constitution and be kind of like, oh, you guys. Particularly on free speech issues, it's like, oh, you guys are right and we're wrong. And primitive and backwards. You have these enlightened hate speech laws and I'm the impolite lawyer who goes over there and says, no, actually you guys are getting this terribly wrong. You're arresting people in Germany for calling a politician a penis. I mean, it's like, this is insane. And if you haven't watched it, there was a 60 Minutes episode or segment on morning raids of people for speech crimes in Germany. And the kind of stuff that they're saying can actually get you in trouble, included an actual example of someone simply calling a politician a penis. And some of the stuff that's going on in, in the uk, my mother's country is also just nuts. I think there was 12,000 arrests last year for offensive comments on the interwebs. That's three times as many. I always point out, by comparison to mass censorship incidents in the United States, that's three times as many people who were arrested on the first Red Scare, which was 1919 and 1920. And that's a two year period. So it's bad. And I think it partially comes from a major distinction between the United States and kind of everybody else is. In First Amendment law, we have something that the Supreme Court dubbed the bedrock principle, which is you can't ban something simply because it's offensive. And I think that this is right because particularly if you're in a. A diverse society, not to mention economically stratified, lots of different cultures, lots of different ages, lots of different regions with different ideas of what it is and isn't okay to say, it makes sense to say I can't actually impose one group's view of what's offensive and say, none of you are allowed to say this because always that is the view of whoever has the most influence in that society. So the postmodernists actually understand this to a degree. They kind of approve of it if it's the right people calling the shots. And in Europe right now, since they have this idea of. I think one of the things that Europe has in a way that is kind of almost lying to itself, is you can have an idea of what a modal German or a modal British person should think in a way that America's never really had. We were Boston and Richmond and Maine and Georgia. We never actually thought of ourselves as being all that similar to each other. And we're even less so now. And so I think that the bedrock principle is the right principle for a multicultural society. But I think that if you don't have it, you end up in a situation where you're constantly saying, and I've been at these conferences, was this cartoon offensive enough to get you arrested for Islamophobia or antisemitism? And then saying yes. And then you look at another cartoon that Americans I have no idea why this is supposedly less or more offensive, but you're still arresting people for cartoons.
- [11:33]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.
- [11:38]
Advertiser
1-800-Flowers.Com knows that a gift is never just a gift. A gift is an expression of everything you feel and helps build more meaningful relationships. 1-800-FLowers takes the pressure off by helping you navigate life's important moments by making it simple to find the perfect gift. From flowers and cookies to cake and chocolate, 1-800-flowers helps guide you in finding the right gift to say how you feel. To learn more, visit 1-800-flowers.com acast that's 1-800flowers.com acasta if you're alignment in charge.
- [12:11]
Will K. Back
Of keeping the lights on, Grainger understands that you go to great lengths and sometimes heights to ensure the power is always flowing. Which is why you can count on Grainger for professional grade products and next day delivery. So you have everything you need to get the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [12:45]
John Law
So I think we're seeing that issue come up in the US as well, along partisan lines and something that actually jumped out to me about FIRE as an organization. I was reading Tim Urban's new book last year and he called Fired the Modern ACLU with the implication that the ACLU has kind of given itself away to partisan considerations. Yep, there it is. Which is which is a great book. You know, I can can recommend that maybe both of both of us can. But, but this idea that that the ACLU and maybe some other organizations that have traditionally been these defenders of civil liberties, civil liberties in the United States are now moving towards just partisan considerations in the cases that they take up and the issues that they champion. And that fires maybe filled that vacuum and that space that they I would love to just hear how you think about the work. What do you think about that characterization? And do you agree that we're seeing partisan considerations kind of take over some of these organizations that in the past would have defended cases on principle and not which political group it serves?
- [13:47]
Will K. Back
I mean, I'm a fan of the ACLU. I worked there back in 99. The former president of the ACLU is actually a fire fellow now, Nadine Strossen. And I'm writing a book on free speech that we just handed in that's coming out this summer with her. Ira Glasser, the former executive director, director of the ACLU is on our advisory council, for example. And we've worked with them a lot. But I have been a little bit. I was kind of surprised to see Anthony Romero refer talk about the ACLU as being a progressive organization because I always, when I so admired the ACLU back in the 80s because they were willing to defend the Nazis at Skokie and these were progressive Jewish lawyers defending Nazis. I was like, that's incredibly principled. That was a remarkable thing, particularly for a, a kid from my family background to see that kind of principle in action. It was really inspiring. And I think FIRE is trying to do. I wrote a series on this trying to avoid what's called the curse of O'Sullivan, that essentially there was this guy O'Sullivan who said that essentially any nonprofit, any cause based organization that is not explicitly conservative eventually drifts left is his theory. And I'm trying to make FIRE the group that doesn't do that, that actually does have, that is not explicitly conservative or even libertarian, that doesn't drift left. And we do that through a hard and challenging approach. Particularly in these times we try to prioritize having staff that is actually politically diverse. When I interned at the ACLU back in 99 wasn't. We have only one practice area, which is freedom of speech, whereas The ACLU has 17 or 19. I forget which one it is. And the problem with having too many practice areas is, and I remember this back in 99, is that, say, from a free speech perspective, whether or not someone protesting abortion clinics has free speech rights is not a hard question. Of course they do. Even if I'm pro choice, which I am, of course you have the right to oppose it. But within an organization that also had a really powerful pro reproductive rights arm, it led them in detention with different departments of the ACLU to take some of these, I think common sense free speech stances. So definitely having politically diverse organization having only one cause. And you also never, you never throw your client under the bus. You never actually say, my client's a bad person for their speech. And not because they aren't necessarily, but because it muddies the idea that you're not defending the person, you're defending the principle. And also it's very hard to at least or for that matter be perceived as genuinely nonpartisan and say, for example, when the ACLU defended the nra, and very rightfully so, and got a great victory out of the Supreme Court when they defend the NRA after there was a very clear attempt to get them more or less banished from the State of New York by going after their insurers and all this kind of stuff. And the aclu, sorry, the Supreme Court had a unanimous case saying this is obviously a First Amendment violation. But the ACLU also said we're defending the NRA and here's why we oppose the nra. And it's like, but that's the problem though. You wouldn't have done that for any other group. So you're kind of showing your hand. So I think there are ways that you can try to keep your organization as nonpartisan as possible. But here's something I tweeted about actually today. I don't know when this is going to come out, but I tweeted there were people over the weekend talking about how principled we are, have been in the face of all these different kinds of threats and but there's another reason why organizations aren't you can raise a lot more money if you tack hard right or hard left. You then have a built in constituency and they will give you gobs of money to tell them that they're right. It's a much, much harder sell to be like, listen, you may have agreed with us when we were saying that the campus shout downs that were out of control over the past two years are really bad. But now you might be really mad at us because we're also defending all the pro Palestin people that they're trying to deport. But that's also what it means to be principled. From a principled standpoint, I don't feel like these cases are particularly hard. It is hard to build a coalition around anybody but just the genuinely principled people when you're willing to piss off partisans of both sides.
- [18:49]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick commercial break.
- [18:56]
Greg Lukianoff
Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom. You realise you're missing a part. It's okay because you know, whatever it is, it's on ebay. They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes, whatever you need. And it's guaranteed to fit. Which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you ordered the right thing. All the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. Ebay Things people love.
- [19:27]
John Law
Work management platforms. Ugh, endless onboarding it bottlenecks, admin requests. But what if things were different? Monday.com is different. No lengthy Onboarding, beautiful reports in minutes, custom workflows you can build on your own. Easy to use prompt, free AI.
- [19:49]
Will K. Back
Huh.
- [19:50]
John Law
Turns out you can love a work management platform. Monday.com the first work platform you'll love to use. So, as a quick aside, I guess to the last point you raised, how does an organization like FIRE make it work on the, on the business side when you don't have that ability to tap into the partisan considerations on either side?
- [20:16]
Will K. Back
We cross our fingers and try real hard. A big part of my job is fundraising. We try to get people to think long term that as much as you might be mad at us right now, you're going to want your country to have a genuinely principled free speech defender that you can always trust to actually just doing what they might. You might always agree with them, but you know that they're doing just what they think is right, not what they think is politically convenient. But that sometimes could be a hard sell. And you have to be willing to lose donors and we'll see how we come out this year. But I learned very early on that you have to be willing to walk away from donors who want you to be partisan. What's interesting, though, is sometimes they actually come back on your terms. Sometimes they're like, I was really mad at you about that one case because I hated that dude. But I've seen what you've done since and we can agree to disagree on that one, but I'll support you again. So we'll see. But it's a very, very partisan moment and it's hard to be nonpartisan in a hyper partisan time.
- [21:29]
John Law
Yeah. And maybe as an example of that, just to talk about some work you're doing right now is Mahmoud Khalil's case, which I know FIRE has taken up and is doing work on. What is your role in that case and what are you hoping to achieve there? And how has that been going so far?
- [21:45]
Will K. Back
The biggest concerning thing is actually even bigger than Mahmoud Khalil. It is that the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, is arguing, and this is what this regulation actually says, that he has the authority to kick someone out even if they're here on a green card, which is supposed to be pretty much like almost the same thing as being a citizen, literally one step away if in his sole discretion, someone is found to be adverse to foreign policy. Now, I think this was probably put in place for a situation where, let's say, a Nazi Eichmann pops up in the US and is on a green card. That's like, oh, I could just send them back in order to avoid an international incident. I don't think it was ever intended to just go after student protesters, but we think this is way too much discretion for the Secretary of State to have. And by the way, there's a really interesting note here. The one time this provision has been challenged, it was found to be too broad and too vague, and it gave the Secretary of State too much power. So it was found facially unconstitutional by Trump's sister, who was a judge. She passed away a couple of years ago. So the only time it's been challenged, it's been overturned. But unfortunately, that case was overturned for reasons completely unrelated to that finding. So what we're trying to find is a plaintiff potentially to help us challenge that provision because we think we could get it defeated again. When it comes to the Kahlil case, we've definitely been trying to explain it to the public in a lot of cases because people come in, you know, the argument is essentially, oh, you're a guest in this country.
- [23:46]
Marc Maron
Hey, everybody, this is John, executive producer for Tangle. I hope you enjoyed this preview of our Sunday podcast with Ari and Isaac. If you are not currently a newsletter subscriber or a premium podcast subscriber and you are enjoying this content and would like to finish it, you can go to readtangle.com and sign up for a newsletter subscription. Or you can sign up for a podcast subscription or a bundled subscription, which gets you both the podcast and the newsletter and unlocks the rest of this episode as well as ad free daily podcasts, more Friday editions, Sunday editions, bonus content, interviews, and so much more. Most importantly, we just want to say thank you so much for your support. We're working hard to bring you much more content and more offerings, so stay tuned. Isaac and Ari will be here for the Sunday podcast and I will join you for the daily podcast on Monday. For the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a fantastic weekend, y'all. Peace.
- [24:47]
Isaac Saul
Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Law. Today's episode was ended at Engineered by John Law. Our editorial staff is led by Managing editor Ari Weitzman, with Senior editor Will K. Back and Associate editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey Saw Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet 75 and John Law. And to learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com.
- [25:24]
Advertiser
1800-Flowers.Com knows that a gift is never just a gift. A gift is an expression of everything you feel and helps build more meaningful relationships. 1-800-FLowers takes the pressure off by helping you navigate life's important moments by making it simple to find the perfect gift. From flowers and cookies to cake and chocolate, 1-800-flowers helps guide you in finding the right gift to say how you feel. To learn more, visit 1-800-flowers.com acast. That's 1-800-flowers.Com acast Ever wonder what your lashes are destined for?
- [26:04]
Marc Maron
The cards have spoken.
- [26:05]
Advertiser
Maybelline, New York Mascara does it all.
- [26:07]
Marc Maron
Whether you crave fully fanned lashes with Lash Sensational Big Bold Volume from the Colossal A Dramatic Lift with Falsies Lash Lift or Natural Looking Volume from Great.
- [26:17]
Will K. Back
Lash, your perfect Lash future awaits.
- [26:20]
Marc Maron
Manifest your best mascara today.
- [26:22]
Advertiser
Shop Maybelline New York and discover your lash destiny. Shop now at Walmart.
- [26:26]
Marc Maron
Hey, it's Marc Maron from wtf here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because you chose it well. Choose Progressives Name your price tool and you could find insurance options that fit your budget. So you can pick the best one for your situation. Who doesn't like choice? Try it@progressive.com and now some legal info. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states.