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- [00:00]
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Isaac Saul
From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
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Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening and welcome to the Tangle Podcast, a place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking, and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul, and on today's episode we are going to be talking about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And his moves at the CDC to remove all 17 members of the Independent Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices. Not great, you'll hear. I'm not a fan of this one, y' all, but I'll make my case when it's my time in the proper space. Don't want to poison the well too much. Before we get into that, though, I do want to give you a quick heads up that on Friday we're going to be releasing a new newsletter. Well, I should say a new writer in the newsletter. I don't know how to Camille's writing a piece. Camille, our editor at large, who you are familiar with. If you've been listening to the podcast is going to be contributing his first written piece. I've seen a first draft of it. It's spicy, it's interesting, compelling, thought provoking, challenging. It's an essay that tackles America's 2020 racial reckon, describes his philosophy about the country's racial movements. I found it very thought provoking. I'm excited to keep editing it and working on it. I'm excited to share it with you, the tango audience. So keep an eye out for that. It's coming out on Friday exclusively in our newsletter, which is where you'll find it and I encourage you to check it out. All right. With that, I'm going to send it over to John for today's main story and I'll be back for my take. Also, thank you, Ari for covering for us yesterday. It was a crazy day for us down in D.C. which I'll be talking more about soon.
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Will Kbach
Thanks, Isaac. This is Senior Editor Will Kbach jumping in here. Let's get into our quick hits for the day. Number one, the United States and China reached an agreement on a plan to implement a trade deal, though President Donald Trump and Chinese President Xi Jinping must each approve the deal before it goes into effect. Number two, the Trump administration is reportedly planning to begin transferring non citizens in the US Illegally to the US Military base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The transfers could begin as early as this week. Number three, Secretary of State Marco Rubio ordered U.S. embassies to proceed with firing all remaining staffers with the U.S. agency for International Development, also known as USAID, and he said the State Department will assume control of USAID's foreign assistance programs by Monday. Number four, U.S. attorney Alina Habba announced federal charges against Representative Lamonica McIver, a Democrat from New Jersey, for allegedly obstructing Homeland Security agents during a protest outside a Newark immigration detention facility in May. Number five, a man in Austria killed 10 people and injured at least 12 others in a shooting at a secondary school where the shooter was a former student. The attack is the deadliest mass shooting in Austria's recent history.
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Isaac Saul
Fierce blowback tonight to HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr's decision to remove all members of the CDC's vaccine advisory committee.
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If this committee stops recommending vaccines, insurance won't cover it anymore. People will not get it. It will have a real impact on people's access to vaccines.
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Will Kbach
I think we're likely to see diseases that we've that many people have never seen before or even heard of. On Monday, the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services. HHS Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Removed all 17 members of the independent Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices, also known as the acip, for the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention, the cdc. The panel is responsible for developing recommendations for vaccine use and setting the US Adult and childhood immunization schedules and the HHS secretary appoints its members to serve four year terms. Kennedy said the move will allow the Trump administration to appoint its own members and restore public trust in vaccines. Kennedy's decision follows other reforms recently announced by agencies overseen by hhs. In February, the Food and Drug Administration, the FDA canceled a meeting of an expert committee on vaccines scheduled for March to decide which influenza strains should be included in the next flu shot. In April, Kennedy announced significant layoffs at the CDC and the fda. Then in May, the FDA announced it would only recommend annual COVID 19 vaccine boosters for adults over 65 and people with a chronic health condition. The problem isn't necessarily that ACIP members are corrupt, kennedy wrote in a Wall Street Journal op ed. Most likely aim to serve public interest as they understand it. The problem is their immersion in a system of industry aligned incentives and paradigms that enforce a narrow pro industry orthodoxy. The new members won't directly work for the vaccine industry. They will exercise independent judgment, refuse to serve as a rubber stamp and foster a culture of critical inquiry unafraid to ask hard questions, end quote. Kennedy has yet to propose individuals to replace those he fired from the panel and the ACIP is next scheduled to meet on June 25, but it's unclear if its new members will be announced by that time. Many leaders in the public health space expressed alarm about Kennedy's decision. Quote with an ongoing measles outbreak and routine child vaccination rates declining, this move will further fuel the spread of vaccine preventable illnesses, Dr. Bruce Scott, the president of the American Medical association, said. Others disputed Kennedy's claim of widespread conflicts of interest among the panel. Senator Bill Cassidy, a Republican from Louisiana and a licensed physician who cast a critical vote to confirm Secretary Kennedy in February, also expressed worries about the move. Quote of course now the fear is that the ACIP will now be filled up with people who know nothing about vaccines except suspicion, cassidy wrote. Today we'll get into what the left and right are saying about the ACIP firings. Then Isaac will give his take.
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Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this quick break.
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Isaac Saul
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Will Kbach
Here's what the Left is saying the left sharply criticizes the move, suggesting it's transparently anti vaccine. Some say that Kennedy clearly lied to senators when he said he wouldn't take actions like this. Others say the move will endanger public health. The Washington Post editorial board wrote, RFK Jr's purge is about reducing access to vaccines. Quote, Kennedy is targeting the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices because he sees it not as an independent scientific body that has helped tame multiple infectious diseases over the past half century, but as a political instrument to control. Kennedy criticizes the committee for having served as a rubber stamp for vaccines. He complains that it has never recommended against a vaccine. Even those later withdrawn for safety reasons, these attacks are unfair. The purpose of ACIP is to develop recommendations for vaccines the Food and Drug Administration has already approved as safe and effective. Committee guidelines affect insurance coverage, the board said. No one argues that vaccines are perfect. Some of them inevitably come with side effects that even sophisticated trials fail to capture, even if those studies recruit thousands of participants. Calling for more testing often sounds good, but FDA trial requirements are already time consuming and expensive, driving up the cost of drugs and curbing the availability of life saving treatments, the board wrote. Only one person can stop Kennedy from making the country much less healthy President Donald Trump. Republican officials who understand the stakes should try to convince Trump that reducing access to vaccines now would endanger the public and, by extension, his legacy. In msnbc, Steve Bennon argued Kennedy is doing the opposite of what he told senators during his confirmation hearing in early February, when there was still some question as to whether or not the Senate would confirm Robert F. Kennedy Jr. To lead the Department of Health and Human Services. Senator Bill Cassidy delivered a closely watched speech on the Senate floor. The Louisiana Republican, a physician by trade, not only endorsed the anti vaccine conspiracy theorist during his remarks, he offered assurances about the future, benon said. Four months later, Cassidy has been proven wrong. Complicating matters is the degree to which these new developments add to a radical and dangerous pattern. Indeed, Kennedy's announcement came just days after a pediatric infectious disease expert resigned from her position as the co leader of a CDC working group that advises outside experts on Covid vaccines, bennett wrote. As unsettling as the news has been, none of it is surprising. RFK Jr. S anti science reputation was well established long before Trump nominated him. That an unqualified anti vaccine conspiracy theorist is behaving like an unqualified anti vaccine conspiracy theorist is painfully predictable. In stat, Richard Besser said the move endangers every American quote. Like countless other physicians, I relied on the independent evidence based recommendations of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices to support the patients in my career, besser wrote. For more than 60 years, ACIP has informed vaccine recommendations that physicians provide to patients, saving lives and improving health. Yet ACIP's pivotal role in our nation's vaccine system has now been upended due to HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr's decision on Monday to indiscriminately fire the entire committee. This misguided decision sends a devastating message. Our nation's top health official cannot be trusted to protect America's children and their families. Kennedy has accused ACIP members of serving industry interests over public health. Nothing could be further from the truth. ACIP meetings are livestreamed, all votes and records are fully accessible to the public, and every meeting has a public comment period. Members must disclose conflicts of interest and recuse themselves from votes if any conflicts arise, besser said. Rates of routine vaccination are falling and outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases are becoming more common. Yet Kennedy is intentionally pursuing policy policies to exacerbate both trends at a time when the administration and Republicans in Congress are also pushing legislation that would cause millions of people to lose health insurance coverage. Now let's move on to what the right is saying. The right is mixed on the decision, Though many praise Kennedy for reorganizing a committee they see as deeply biased. Some argue that Kennedy distorts the ACIP's flaws. Others say Kennedy rightly called out issues with the acip, but his solution carries significant risks. In PJ Media, Catherine Salgado called the move a shot of sanity. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Is inoculating America against false scientism, his latest move? Canning the entire CDC vaccine advisory panel, salgado wrote. After the COVID 19 debacle, when experimental vaccines without tests for efficacy and safety were forced on many Americans and recommended to pregnant women, vulnerable seniors and children despite kids being in almost no danger from the virus, reform was clearly necessary. And for those leftists about to have a heart attack over Kennedy's firings, the HHS clarified that all 17 members of the ACIP now removed were appointed by the Biden administration, with a whopping 13 of them appointed just last year. It would seem clear that the Biden administration was trying to rig the panel as much as possible ahead of a potential election defeat to undermine any reform efforts under a new president. The press release explained that if the Trump administration had accepted all of those appointments, no chance for a less biased majority would have been possible until 2028, Salgado said. Fortunately, RFK wasn't about to be daunted by such dishonest manipulation. A clean sweep is necessary to re establish public confidence in vaccine science, the secretary declared. Imagine trying to prioritize transparency, objective science and the American public over Big Pharma profits and political ideology, the Wall Street Journal editorial board wrote. RFK Jr. Conducts his vaccine Purge Quote the HHS secretary has broad discretion over the panel's remit and composition. There might be a constitutional argument for eliminating the committee and other outside advisory panels because they can weaken executive accountability. Agency leaders have sometimes shifted political responsibility for controversial decisions to advisory panels. The board said. But Mr. Kennedy's beef seems to be that the committee's members know something about vaccines and may have been involved in their research and development. Mr. Kennedy this year posted members self identified perceived or potential conflicts on the CDC website. They show that members have properly recused themselves from decisions that involve products for which they served as trial investigators as well as those of their competitors or if they held stock in companies. In other words, the conflicts of interest were honestly handled, the board wrote. The secretary says the new members will refuse to serve as a rubber stamp, but ACIP doesn't automatically approve what the industry wants. The committee has often recommended narrower applications for vaccines, including for rsv, HPV and Covid booster shots. In Reason, Liz Wolf explored RFK Jr's big shakeup quote Kennedy cites the Rota Shield incident as an example of the conflicts of interest at the acip quote. Committee members regularly participated in deliberations and advocated products in which they had a financial stake, he argues in the journal. Like with so much of what RFK Jr peddles, there's a grain of truth within the Rotoshield incident was disturbing, and increased transparency into advisory committee's actions would be good. But an incident from 30 years ago that was subsequently investigated and rectified doesn't necessarily mean the whole advisory board should be thrown out or that all of their decision making is invalidated. It's hard to say how much this actually changes things or how worried you should be. ACIP reviews new vaccines, but is also tasked with evaluating existing vaccines. Lots of families already make the choice to deviate from the standard vaccination schedule, mostly in minor ways. That doesn't really cause significant issues with herd immunity, herd wrote. But it will definitely take a long time for school immunization schedules to drastically change, and parents decisions will probably continue to roughly track those requirements. That said, it's also possible that a new ACIP could overhaul all of this, give parents worse recommendations for how to vaccinate their children and that lead to cyclical outbreaks like measles.
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Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take. So one of the people that I really trust on issues of public health is Caitlin Jettalina, who writes the newsletter, your local epidemiologist. Over the years, including through Covid, Jetalina has taken level headed, nuanced approaches to public health issues, rarely issuing sensational or over the top warnings. And over the last few months she's been making a concerted effort to engage with the Make America Healthy again movement and to better understand why medical professionals like her are losing people's trust. She makes a good faith effort to explain her perspective through data, but also to meet people where they are and address the experiences that drive skepticism of public health recommendations. Here's how she started her newsletter yesterday. Quote in an unprecedented and deeply alarming move, Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Has removed every single member of the nation's Vaccine Policy Committee, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, and announced plans to hand pick their replacements. In other words, someone with an established track record of ignoring reality made the unilateral ideological decision to gut one of the most trusted and effective pillars of America's vaccine infrastructure, a system that helped eliminate smallpox, drastically reduce childhood diseases, safeguard schools, expand insurance coverage, and save millions of lives. A system that empowered 90% of Americans to protect their children and families confidently. It's now becoming unrecognizable. The impact of Kennedy's move is hard to describe. As many writers above have noted, Kennedy made a promise to Republican Senator Bill Cassidy to maintain the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices without changing. He had to make this promise because Cassidy understood that tearing down ACIP would be a five alarm fire. Kennedy is now most of the way toward completely violating that promise. All he has left to do is stack the committee with ideologues. Here's just one example of why gutting the panel is a huge deal. ACIP is responsible for making recommendations that provide the basis for what vaccine insurers must cover. If Kennedy stacks the decision making group with like minded and inexperienced officials, I.e. vaccine skeptics or outright adversaries, their recommendations could lead insurers to stop covering important vaccines. Without insurance coverage, vaccination rates could plummet quickly. Insurance aside, nearly half of all children in the US Are covered by the Vaccine for Children program, which provides free vaccinations. ACIP determines what vaccines that program includes, and if it makes certain vaccines no longer available for free, then you can guess what that will do to vaccination rates in children. Let me say this. Since Kennedy first started musing about a presidential run, I've tried to give him a fair shake. I've criticized the corporate media who framed him as little more than a rabid anti vaxxer, empathized with his reproval of modern American life and personally connected to the appeal of his discussion of healthcare issues. But I was very critical of Kennedy's nomination to lead the hhs, the federal government's biggest agency by budget, in large part because he does believe a lot of nonsense. The first few months of his term have not inspired any confidence. He's already wasting untold time and resources hunting for a link between autism and vaccines that we know doesn't exist. The MAHA report he issued on life expectancy was riddled with errors and made up studies because his team apparently used AI to put it together, a disqualifying and fireable offense in any normal administration. He ended public comment periods for HHS policies, a direct violation of his promise to promote more transparency. He cut off funding for bird flu vaccine development, a valuable initiative to protect our livestock and limit the risk of transmission to humans. And now this. Even in his Wall Street Journal op ed announcing that he was gutting acip, Kennedy's words were rife with misleading claims and outright falsehoods. For instance, he claimed ACIP has never recommended it against the vaccine, even those later withdrawn for safety reasons. This is both bizarre and false. It's bizarre because ACIP's job isn't to authorize new vaccines for public use. That job belongs to the Food and Drug Administration, the fda. What ACIP does mostly is determine who gets those vaccines once they're approved. It's also false because ACIP has on several occasions recommended against or pulled their approval of vaccines. In both the 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 flu seasons, the ACIP recommended against the use of live attenuated flu flu vaccine because of its low effectiveness. In 1999, ACIP withdrew its recommendation for Rotashield, citing an association between the vaccine and bowel obstruction in infants. In 2021, the ACIP recommended MRNA vaccines over Johnson and Johnson vaccines, citing the risk of blood clots from the Johnson Johnson product. It has also recommended restrictions on Denvaxia, the only vaccine approved in the United States for dengue fever, limiting its use to specific age groups in specific situations. For what it's worth, I have no idea how this line made it through the Wall Street Journal's fact checking process, which applies even for OP eds. And I actually emailed their editors requesting a correction, something I rarely do. It's also true that ACIP has been plagued with persistent conflicts of interest and has become little more than a rubber stamp for any vaccine. It also isn't true that ACIP has been plagued with persistent conflicts of interest and has become little more than a rubber stamp for any vaccine, as Kennedy said. Kennedy backs up this assertion with the Flimsy claim that 97% of ACIP members conflict of interest disclosures had omissions, which is misleadingly taken from a 2009 report finding that these forms had missing dates or information in the wrong section, not grievous withholding. The claim is also contradicted by the full review of the current committee's disclosures that Kennedy called for and which found no significant conflicts of interest. Also in March, the journal Science launched its own investigation into the committee's conflicts of interest and similarly reported no troubling findings. As has been common with Kennedy, he has diagnosed a real problem and prescribed it for entirely the wrong medicine. True, ACIP's appointment process is less than stellar in its transparency, but its members are vetted for conflicts of interest, its meetings are live streamed, it posts evidence for its recommendations online, and it provides a list legally required public comment period on those findings. This entire story is a nice encapsulation of why I've become so disappointed with Kennedy since his appointment, despite doing my best to temper my skepticism. It's a classic example of him pushing seemingly positive and innocuous ideals. Transparency, no conflicts of interest, public trust in a totally backward and broken way that undermines the very goal he says he's trying to accomplish. His job is to protect the country's health, and barring a shocking turn of events where Kennedy stacks ACIP with highly qualified experts that do not predominantly share his own views, this move will unambiguously make us less healthy and make our children less safe. In normal times, the collection of these actions would lead to someone like him getting fired, but in 2025, it's just another Tuesday. We'll be right back after this. Quick.
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All right, that is it for my take, which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Brian in Oakland, California. Brian said, what's the deal with George Soros As a person leaning to the left, I hear very little about him except as the target of right leaning anger and what have I assumed to be conspiracies? From my perspective, Musk is doing the very thing that Soros is regularly accused of. Am I just in a bubble? So some of the statements you might hear about Soros are definitely conspiratorial or anti Semitic, but he is more than just a regular billionaire political donor. Soros is a Democratic megadonor and in that way he is pretty comparable to Republican mega donor Elon Musk. However, Soros has been involved with politics for much longer. Musk donated hundreds of millions to conservative causes in 2024, not just to Donald Trump's campaign, but to other Republican candidates through individual contributions and super PACs. Conversely, Soros donated much less in 2024, but was the largest individual donor in the 2022 midterms and has been making political contributions for decades. In terms of his donations, I think he's probably more comparable to the Koch brothers. Both have donated hundreds of millions of dollars through various Super PACs over the past decade, with Soros primarily using the democr donate to left leaning politicians and initiatives, and the Koch brothers primarily using the Americans for Prosperity action pack to support conservatives. This year in particular, Soros is preparing to put a small fortune into backing Democrats in Texas. Those kinds of donations are uncomfortably large and invite the possibility of quid pro quo corruption, but as you say, they also aren't that unusual or even that outsized compared to checks from other mega donors. Where Soros stands out, however, is with his Open Society University Network, a global nonprofit through which he has donated 32 billion with a B dollars. The nonprofit funds over two dozen colleges and research projects through its Democracy Institute and other projects and initiatives, which makes the money much harder to track. Soros efforts sometimes overlap with government spending through organizations like usaid, which further muddies the waters over what exactly the Hungarian born billionaire is financing. In short, Soros is absolutely an impactful and influential megadonor, but what makes him unique is that his reach goes far beyond just the US or political campaigns. It is global, multifaceted and often hard to track, which invites more suspicion and interest.
- [30:49]
Will Kbach
All right, thanks Isaac Senior Editor Will Kbach here jumping back in with today's under the radar story. On Tuesday, the World bank cut its forecast for global growth in 2025 from 2.7% to 2.3%, as it noted that the 2000 and 20s are on pace for the slowest decade of growth since the 1960s, the group's Global Economic Prospects report lowered 2025 growth forecasts for almost 70% of economies, including approximately 60% of all developing economies. It identified trade tensions and heightened government borrowing as drivers of the projections, suggesting that a focus on job creation could help improve the outlook. Quote the world economy today is once more running into turbulence. Without a swift course correction, the harm to living standards could be deep, Inder McGill, the World Bank's chief economist, said. Bloomberg has the story, and you can check out the link in today's episode Description all right, now let's move on to some numbers about our main story. 1964. That's the year the U.S. surgeon General established the Advisory Committee on immunization practices, the ACIP. 19 the maximum number of voting members on the ACIP? 59% that's the percentage of US adults who say they have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to provide reliable information about vaccines, According to an April 2025 KFF 41% the percentage of US adults who say they have a great or fair amount of trust in Robert F. Kennedy Jr. To provide reliable information about vaccines. -18% that's the change in the percentage of Democrats who say they have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the CDC to provide reliable information about vaccines between September 2023 and April 2025, plus 11% that's the change between September 2023 and April 2025 in the percentage of Republicans who say they have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the CDC to provide reliable information about vaccines 36% and 43%. That's the percentage of Americans who say they approve and disapprove, respectively, of Kennedy's performance as health secretary, according to an April and May 2025 Pew Research poll. 66% and 9%. That's the percentage of Republicans and Democrats, respectively, who approve of Kennedy's job performance. And last but not least, here is today's Half a Nice Day story to send you on your way. After feeling like she was falling behind as a mom and in her career, Britt Riley decided to create an all in one support system to address this common experience. Riley's business, called Haven, now, has three locations across Rhode island, each stocked with gyms, fully licensed daycare facilities and co working spaces, aiming to help families prioritize their mental and physical health while still feeling connected to each other and their communities. I feel like it's critically important that every member of the family is supported, riley said. Because if we want to show up for our children, we need to support everybody who takes care of them, right? Nice News has this story and again you can find the link to it in today's episode description. All right, that is it for today. Thanks so much for listening. We will be back tomorrow and until then have a great rest of the day. Talk to you soon. Thanks all.
- [34:16]
Isaac Saul
Our Executive Editor and Founder is me, Isaac Saul and our Executive Producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor ON Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will Kaback and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Saul, Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
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- [35:42]
Isaac Saul
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- [36:16]
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