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- [00:02]
Turtle Wax Host
This is Car Tracks with Turtle Wax. Your car says a lot about you. So if we asked your car what it would say about you, what would it say? Listen, you dropped one of those tiny cheeseburgers under the seat like last week and now we're both dry heaving the stench. Do us a favor, grab some Turtle Wax and let's get to work. This has been Car Tracks with Turtle Wax. You are how you car out here.
- [00:31]
Isaac Saul
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- [00:46]
Turtle Wax Host
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- [01:22]
Isaac Saul
From executive producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle.
- [01:37]
Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Tangle podcast. The place we get views from across the political spectrum, some independent thinking and a little bit of my take. I'm your host, Isaac Saul and on today's episode we're going to be talking about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Versus the food additives versus big food. He's taken on big food kinda. We're gonna talk about some of the stuff happening. Pretty interesting story. Some opinions from the left and the right and today some opinions from experts in the space which I think are really worth highlighting. And then as always, I'll share my take. It is Wednesday, July 30th. It's gonna be a good one. This is a good episode. I'm gonna send it over to John for today's main topic and I'll be back.
- [02:26]
Turtle Wax Host
Thanks, Isaac, and welcome everybody. Here are your quick hits for today. First up, an 8.8 magnitude earthquake off of Russia's Pacific coast triggered tsunami waves that reached Hawaii and other US States along the west coast. A tsunami warning initially issued for all of Hawaii was downgraded to AN Advisory number two. The Senate voted 50 to 49 to confirm Emil Bove to serve on the 3rd U.S. circuit Court of Appeals. Bove formerly worked as President Donald Trump's personal lawyer in his New York hush money trial and defended the president in two of his federal criminal cases. Bove also served as Acting US Deputy Attorney General from January to March 2025. Number three British Prime Minister Keir Starmer said that the United Kingdom would recognize a Palestinian state if Israel did not take immediate action to end the war in Gaza. The announcement follows France's decision last week to recognize a Palestinian state. Number four the Environmental Protection Agency released a proposal to rescind regulations on vehicle emissions and scale back rules on power plant emissions. The agency argues that it does not have the authority to regulate these emissions under the Clean Air act. And number five Union Pacific and Norfolk Southern announced an $85 billion merger deal. The companies will seek to create the first US Transcontinental railroad network. The Surface Transportation Board will review the proposed merger.
- [04:01]
Isaac Saul
Keeping his campaign promise to make America Healthy again, Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Says he wants food makers to stop using synthetic dyes made from petroleum to color what we eat and drink.
- [04:14]
Problem is, industry is making money.
- [04:17]
Paige
I'm keeping us sick.
- [04:19]
Isaac Saul
The FDA Citing a new epidemic of childhood diabetes, obesity and adhd, in January, the FDA banned red dye number three. The new ban targets six more synthetic dyes and two food colorings, common ingredients found in cereals, candies, cakes and even medicine.
- [04:39]
Turtle Wax Host
In the past two months, several major US Food companies have voluntarily committed to removing artificial food dyes from from their products, following a plan from the Food and Drug Administration to work with the industry to phase out petroleum based synthetic dyes. In June, Heinz and General Mills committed to removing synthetic dyes from all their products by the end of 2027, while Nestle committed to their removal by the end of 2026. Then in July, the International Dairy Foods association announced that dozens of brands will remove artificial dyes from ice cream products by the end of 2028. For context, in April, the FDA announced a series of actions to begin phasing out eight petroleum based dyes that are commonly used to add color to beverages, cereals and children's foods by the end of 2026. Specifically, the FDA said it would work with producers to phase out six Food, Drug and Cosmetics, or FDNC dyes by the end of next year, green 3, red 40, yellow 5, yellow 6, blue no. 1 and blue no. 2, and initiated a process to revoke the authorization for two citrus red 2 and orange B. The FDA also asked the industry to remove fdc red dye no. 3 earlier than the 20272028 deadline. The agency had initially set in January. The push to remove synthetic dyes from foods is part of Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr's Make America Healthy Again agenda. Kennedy alleges that artificial additives are linked to chronic health conditions, particularly in children. Some studies have linked petroleum based dyes to cancer risks and behavioral problems in children. Another June 2025 study found that synthetic dyes were present in 19% of consumer products and that products with synthetic dyes contained 141% more sugar on average. Secretary Kennedy has praised recent commitments from industry leaders. America is entering a new era of nutrition, secretary Kennedy said in a statement. Replacing synthetic food dyes with natural colors marks another major victory in our mission to make America healthy again. The regulations are not limited to the federal government. In September 2024, California banned six petroleum based FD&C dyes identified by the FDA for removal from public school food. Additionally, the European Union and Canada are already require that Products containing FD&C dyes come with a warning label. Separately, in March, Kennedy directed the FDA to explore potential revisions to its Substances Generally Recognized as Safe rule, which allows some food additives to bypass the pre market approval process if their safety is generally recognized by qualified experts. Some food companies have reportedly struggled to replace the artificial dyes with natural ones. Meanwhile, some experts think the effects of the proposed bans are overstated. Taking petroleum based food dyes out of our food supply certainly can't hurt and it may have some health benefits, but it is unlikely to appreciably reduce the burden of chronic disease in the United States, emily Barrett, a public health professor at Rutgers University, said. Today we'll explore what the left, right and health experts are saying about Kennedy's efforts and then Isaac's Take Foreign we'll.
- [08:04]
Isaac Saul
Be right back after this quick break.
- [08:09]
We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes. Nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app Today.
- [08:39]
Strawberry Me Host
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- [09:48]
Turtle Wax Host
Alright, first up, let's start with what the left is saying. Many on the left say Kennedy's philosophy on food is inconsistent. Some share his concern about food additives, but question whether HHS has the tools to act on them under his leadership. In Salon, Ashley D. Stevens criticized the hypocrisy of RFK Jr. Preaching real food. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Wants to make America healthy again. That phrase turned slogan has become a tentpole of the health secretary's political ethos, one that places a righteous halo around real food. Clean, unprocessed, additive free, stephens wrote. So it was a curious pivot then, when Kennedy, fresh off a tour of an industrial food facility in Oklahoma, applauded the company Mom's Meals for delivering additive free trays to sick and elderly Americans on Medicare and Medicaid. The offerings he praised Chicken Bacon Ranch pasta, French toast sticks, ham patties, meals that, while technically low on petroleum dyes, are otherwise textbook examples of the ultra processed fair Kennedy has spent years denouncing. Kennedy has built his political brand on the idea that food is medicine, going as far as to call processed foods poison. But as anyone paying attention to American health care knows, that promise plays out along a fault line, stevens said. We live in a two tiered system, one kind of care for the haves, another for the have nots. And Republicans by and large, are comfortable with that. If food is medicine, it follows that real food, the kind Kennedy lionizes, should be reserved for those who can afford it. Sick poor people serve them Chicken Bacon Ranch pasta. In the Washington post, Representative Rosa DeLauro wrote, I'm a Democrat, RFK Jr is right about Gras Kennedy and I don't agree on much, but we both know that the Food and Drug Administration needs to get serious about food regulation, delauro said. Most Americans have no idea that the FDA put synthetic and potentially carcinogenic additives and in the same category as salt. It's called grass, generally recognized as safe. Yet it's anything but. The grass loophole was created in 1958 to exempt staple ingredients such as sugar, vinegar, flour and baking soda from an extensive FDA review process. But over time it has been exploited by big corporations that have included hundreds of artificial chemicals and novel additives in food products. If we are going to more rigorously test food additives, we need to give the FDA the necessary resources and staffing to succeed. It is impossible to run an extensive food safety oversight program with a skeleton crew and a shoestring budget. Rigorous scientific testing and analysis as well as public review processes take time, funding and expertise, delauro wrote. If Trump and Kennedy acknowledge these facts, there may be a bipartisan path to reform. As someone who has worked on this issue, which had overwhelming Democratic interest for years, I am glad to see the momentum for grass reform expanding across the aisle and the country. Alright, that is it for what the left is saying, which brings us to what the right is saying. Many on the right celebrate Kennedy's push to curtail food dyes and other additives. Some argue his policies reveal his progressive big government roots. In PJ Media, Paula Bolliard praised Kennedy's huge Maha wins on food dyes. Artificial colors in foods have been linked to a number of behavioral issues in children, including hyperactivity, irritability, memory problems, restlessness and volatile moods, according to Henry Ford Health, Bolliard wrote. While it's true that there's no single gold standard study proving that food dyes directly cause behavioral problems, the evidence continues to mount every year, with or without conclusive studies. Parents have long been aware of the detrimental effects of certain food dyes on their children, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy said in April. For too long, some food producers have been feeding Americans petroleum based chemicals without their knowledge or consent. These poisonous compounds offer no nutritional benefit and pose real measurable dangers to our children's health and development, bolliard said. That's how it should be getting manufacturers to make changes voluntarily rather than sicing jackbooted federal bureaucrats on them. This is a major step in the Make America Healthy movement that will undoubtedly be cheered by millions of American parents. In Reason, Liz Wolf wrote, RFK Jr plays the hits over the past two generations, we have failed to address the alarming rise in childhood chronic disease, reads a new report issued by the President's Make America Healthy Again Commission, Wolf said. Though I think some of the specifics cited within the report rely on casual leaps and faulty research, I'm not sure this diagnosis of the problem is really incorrect, Kennedy's team continues, noting that the goal is for the next 10 years to see a revolution in living standards and prosperity, during which we understand how to better manage the increased threats to our children's health that come from industrialization. These are worthy goals if you can stomach some of the anti corporate leftism that creeps in throughout Kennedy points to ultra processed foods as a major contributor to obesity rates, artificial sweeteners as possibly responsible for gut microbiome imbalances, red dye 40 and other food colorings as associated with symptoms consistent with adhd. At times he takes an anti corporate tone, showing some of his lefty roots, wolff wrote. Of course, he's also giving indicators that he favors a more paternalistic state that intervenes in people's personal choices to stop them from making what he perceives to be bad ones. Alright, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to what experts are saying. Some health experts say the risk posed by food dyes is unproven but worthy of attention. Others suggest Kennedy is focusing on the wrong problem with children's nutrition. In Parent Data, Emily Oster offered a dive into the food dyes controversy. In talking about food dyes, one common response is we should eat only natural whole foods. Food dyes are generally a part of ultra processed foods, which have their own detractors. But as I have written about before, there is more nuance to the ultra processed food debate than is often represented in public discussion. It is fairly unrealistic to avoid all ultra processed foods, and it's not fun, asta wrote. Sometimes food is about enjoyment and joy. Dyes tend to make food more enjoyable, which is good for consumers, but they also enhance demand, which is good for food companies. It is absolutely true that foods do not need dyes though. Do food dyes cause hyperactivity? There are a number of food dyes that have been linked to hyperactivity in kids. Most notable is red dye number 40. This is the one in Swedish Fish, by the way. But there are blue and yellow dyes that raise the same concerns, oster said. My overall read of this literature, which aligns with what the FDA has said in the past, is that it's unlikely that these food dyes have any meaningful effect on behavior. Others obviously disagree. Here but having looked carefully at the data, it does not seem compelling to me. Instead, James Smoliga suggested RFK Jr. S synthetic dye bands miss a much bigger problem. I'm not defending artificial dyes. I see no health benefit to adding petroleum derived pigments to food, and I personally avoid using them when I bake, which I do. No one needs petroleum products to make cupcakes festive, Smoliga wrote. But focusing national attention on them risks missing the real story. To consume enough Red Dye 3 to remotely approach the doses used in rodent studies, a child would need to eat enormous amounts of ultra processed foods like candy, snack cakes and sweetened drinks. Parents may feel reassured that lunchboxes are dye free, but the real danger isn't the artificial color itself, it's the sugar and refined carbohydrates that deliver it. From a public health perspective, synthetic dye bans are a trivial drop in a much larger bucket. Removing artificial food colors may clean up ingredient labels, but it won't clean up the metabolic toll of ultra processed sugar laden foods, the very vehicles that typically carry these dyes, smoliga said. The metabolic fallout of high sugar, pre diabetes, obesity and an estimated $413 billion in annual US healthcare costs is documented in humans and and growing every year. Unlike the theoretical dye risk, sugar's metabolic toll is clear all right, let's head over to Isaac for his take.
- [18:39]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for what the left and the right are saying. Which brings us to my take. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Is a challenging person. He's challenging to write about, he's challenging to support. He's challenging to contextualize. Pretty much everything about him evokes mixed feelings in me, some amalgamation of support for the big central problems he takes on and frustration with how far he believes the causes to those problems go. This has become a recurring theme in our last few weeks of coverage, and maybe it's just the theme of this administration and life more broadly, but I think the central question here is can you hold a few things at once? Number one, studies on red dye's relationship to hyperactivity are inconclusive at best. As Emily Oster put it, about half of the studies on this topic find an impact of food dyes on hyperactivity, but half do not. Anyone claiming a scientific consensus on artificial food dyes is overlooking or unfamiliar with half of the studies on the topic, and nobody I trust on this topic and has highlighted a gold standard study proving or disproving causality. Furthermore, Asser is right to call out that the differences that existed before Kennedy's appointment between the US and European regulation on food dyes are actually pretty small. Number two, for a lot of parents and consumers, a few compelling studies provide ample justification for regulation and the risk threshold we have for what we put into our kids bodies and our own should be extremely low. And add to that the convincing findings that show food dyes make people eat more food by making it more appealing and contain more sugar, and the argument to regulate them in some way becomes pretty strong. Number three, the FDA has relinquished far too much of its food additive review process to food producers, and Kennedy's instinct to reform the GRAs, generally recognized as safe process, is on point. A blitz on this initiative is likely to garner bipartisan support. Number four, Kennedy, like the Trump administration as a whole, has been laying off researchers and leading a charge to gut funding for the very groups and scientists who test, analyze and study food safety. The FDA and CDC have already been gutted, which is going to impact not just food safety and disease control, but the testing of new drugs and cosmetics. Thanks to the administration's cuts, we are less prepared now to back new policies with evidence than we were six months ago. And number five, let's be blunt about this. Removing the dyes and additives Kennedy is focusing on contextually is small potatoes. Banning petroleum based dyes or substituting high fructose corn syrup for cane sugar and coke is not going to meaningfully change American health habits. Ultra processed foods sound big and scary, but at the end of the day, the big bads in our diets are too much sugar and refined carbohydrates. James Smoliga had a great piece about this in Statin News that is worth reading. But the upshot is that the banned dyes could cause issues if consumed in doses the FDA already recommends against, but they aren't causing obesity, diabetes and other chronic health issues. Those problems are caused by sedentary lifestyles, lack of sleep and diet. Of course, the larger relative size of other problems is not a good reason to dismiss this one. Again, while the impact of removing these dyes may be muted, there's little evidence to suggest that doing so would produce negative outcome outcomes. It's just to say that it doesn't represent a major challenge to big food that Kennedy purports to represent. Not to be nitpicky, but the image of Kennedy endorsing Mexican Coca Cola or eating at fast food restaurants is just as damaging to American health as his awareness campaign against red dyes is helpful. He is correct directionally to put such a massive emphasis on what we are putting in our bodies. It's not as if he is the first person to center that idea, but he seems to have a particular skill for messaging it that other public health officials don't. I think he is right to be skeptical of the food industry, to want reform at the fda, and to raise awareness about all the synthetic additives laced throughout our diets. These talking points pluck at all those skeptical thought bubbles that pop up for me and many other Americans. Almost every American I know who has ever traveled to Europe has a story about the food, how much different or better they felt eating there, how the bread didn't upset their stomach, or how they ate constantly and didn't gain weight. Many of us intuit that something about how we get our food is broken. The mass production, the uncertainty about where it came from, the list of unpronounceable ingredients, and trends towards growing your own food and buying from local sources seem to be skyrocketing in popularity. But intuition and feeling should not guide regulatory action. If Kennedy wants to be the champion for clean eating that he says he is, he'll need to be a lot more ambitious than pursuing boogeymen. Like food, food dies. In a lot of ways, I'm rooting for him, but I question how he can achieve his stated goals while gutting the agencies capable of doing so. And it'd be a lot easier if he could accurately represent the risk and the reward while championing his causes against big food. We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [23:57]
Strawberry Me Host
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- [24:18]
Paige
This is Paige, the co host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just Uber Eats it. The amount of times I've had to Uber eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it. On Uber Eats, you can get grocery alcohol everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get almost anything with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region and see app for details.
- [25:27]
Isaac Saul
All right, that is it for my take. Which brings us to your questions answered. This one's from Jess in Omaha, Nebraska. Jess said, what are your thoughts on the Fairness Doctrine? Do you think its abolishment contributed to today's political division? And do you think something similar being implemented today could help bridge the political divide? As your existence proves, modern news is quite biased. Was it better under the Fairness Doctrine, or is that just more viewing the past through rose colored glasses? Okay, so first of all, for context, for people who don't know, the Fairness Doctrine was a policy that was instituted by the Federal Communications Commission. That's the FCC, from 1949 until 1987, and it required major broadcasting networks to devote equal time to contrasting opinions of public importance. That meant that any television show or news anchor expressing an opinion on a topic like war or taxes would have had to provide reasonable opportunities for opposing perspectives to be heard on air. The FCC repealed the doctrine in 1987, citing First Amendment concerns. Congress passed a bill to preempt the decision and keep the doctrine in place, but President Ronald Reagan vetoed it for the same reasons as the fcc.
- [26:35]
Strawberry Me Host
See.
- [26:36]
Isaac Saul
Do I think the news media was less biased when the Fairness Doctrine was in place? Yes, definitely. Recent studies have shown that media bias is getting worse. And just as important, the public's perception of bias has skyrocketed in recent debates. Trust in the media has been declining since the 1970s, and a large majority of Americans think the media is biased. Now. Do I think the repeal of the doctrine contributed to this era of polarization? It's hard to ignore the correlation, since polling on distrust and increased polarization followed the removal of the Fairness Doctrine. In the wake of that, we saw things like the rise of mostly conservative talk radio shows. But would I rank it as one of the top reasons? Probably not. To me, the 24 hour news cycles that were kicked into overdrive by cable news, the dangerous monetization incentives that effectively turned news into entertainment, and hiring practices that left legacy media dominant dominated by left leaning thinkers, were all much more impactful in creating distrust driving demand for explicitly partisan media outlets and ultimately making way for the polarization that we see today. All of this was then supercharged by social media, news feeds and the rise of the podcast era. In 2022, I wrote a piece called How Media Bias Works that explored how we got here. We'll link to it in today's show notes, and it is worth reading if it's a topic you're interested in. To be honest, I have to say I also share President Reagan's First Amendment concerns about the Fairness Doctrine. If we as a news organization were forced into the current format we have every day today without exception by government regulation, I'd probably feel pretty negatively about that. It's easy for us to say that media polarization is a big problem, but I think it's much harder to say definitively that the FCC could have done anything to prevent it. All right, I'm going to send it over to John for the rest of the pod and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Have a good one.
- [28:34]
Turtle Wax Host
Thanks, Isaac. Here's your under the radar story for today, folks. On Tuesday, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy announced a review of the Biden administration's potential disregard for safety concerns for scores of wind projects built near highways and railroads. Duffy alleged that former Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg in particular ignored potential interference of wind turbines on radio communications in his efforts to advance renewable energy projects. The Department of Transportation claims it has uncovered at least 33 such projects approved by the Biden administration, and Duffy has asked Congress to also review the matter. The Washington examiner has this story, and there's a link in today's episode Description all right, next up is our numbers section. In a sample of 39,763 products, 19% of food and beverage products sold by U.S. manufacturers in 2020 contained synthetic dyes. According to a June 2025 study in the Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the approximate value of those food and beverage products containing synthetic dyes is $46 billion. The percentage of products that contained food, drug and cosmetic read number 40. The most common of any dye in the study is 14%. The maximum number of observed synthetic dyes in a single product in the study is 7.28percent of products in the top five categories marketed to children contain synthetic dyes. The mean total sugar in products with synthetic dyes is 33.3 grams out of 100 grams, and the mean total sugar in products without synthetic dyes is 13.8 grams out of 100 grams, according to the study. According to a June 2025 Ipsos poll, 87% of Americans say that the government should do more to make sure food is safe, such as updating nutritional guidelines, adding labels to foods with artificial dyes, or reducing exposure to pesticides. And 56% of Americans say that chemicals or unsafe additives in foods are a large or moderate risk to their health right now. And last but not least, our have a nice day story. The war in Ukraine has displaced millions, forcing Ukrainians to leave behind their household pets and straining local animal shelters. However, volunteers are stepping up to help the abandoned animal population. Veterinary surgeon Colleen Lambo traveled to Ukraine in April 2024 and within two weeks she and her team had sterilized over 600 animals and provided life saving care for community members pets. Lambo Lambo, who returned to Ukraine for a second volunteer trip this spring, says the work has provided a boost to the community in a trying time. It feels like we've accomplished so little in the grand scheme of their needs, but every person we've met has been so kind and so generous, lambeau said. Our work is a drop in a bucket, but no one has treated it as such. Nice News has this story and there's a link in today's episode description all right everybody, that is it for today's episode. As always, if you'd like to support our work, Please go to readtangle.com where you can sign up for a newsletter membership, podcast membership or a bundled membership that gets you a discount on both. We'll be right back here tomorrow. For Isaac and the rest of the crew, this is John Law signing off. Have a great day y'. All. Peace.
- [32:01]
Isaac Saul
Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Sol, and our Executive Producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by John Law. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman, with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editors Audrey Moorhead, Bailey Stahl, Lindsay Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75 and John Law and to learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com.
- [32:46]
Strawberry Me Host
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- [33:13]
Isaac Saul
Quince.com levelup1,800-Flowers.com knows that a gift is never just a gift. A gift is an expression of everything you feel and helps build more meaningful relationships. 1-800-FLowers takes the pressure off by helping you navigate life's important moments by making it simple to find the perfect gift. From flowers and cookies to cake and chocolate, 1-800-flowers helps guide you in finding the right gift to say how you feel. To learn more, visit 1-800-flowers.com acast that's 1-800-Flowers.com acast.
- [33:46]
Paige
This is Paige, the co host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just Uber Eats it. The amount of times I've had to Uber Eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it. On Uber Eats. You can get grocery alcohol everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get almost anything with Uber Eats. Order now for alcohol. You must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.