SPECIAL EDITION: Interview with witness of Charlie Kirk shooting.

Summary

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Tangle Podcast – SPECIAL EDITION

Interview with a Witness of Charlie Kirk Shooting
Host: Will Kbach (Senior Editor), Tangle
Guest: “Haley,” high school sophomore and eyewitness
Date: September 14, 2025

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Overview

This special edition of Tangle features an extended interview with “Haley,” a 16-year-old high school sophomore and eyewitness to the shooting and death of conservative activist Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University (UVU) on September 10, 2025. In a candid, emotional conversation, Haley recounts the events from the perspective of someone present, the shock and trauma of the experience, and her reflections on political violence and its impact. The episode also explores the broader implications of such events on young people and communities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: Why Haley Attended the Event

• Haley is not a UVU student but attended out of curiosity and some admiration for Charlie Kirk, having watched his videos.
  • “I'm not actually a student at UVU. I'm 16. So I came to the campus… with a group of friends to see the debate.” (05:23)
  • She describes Kirk as a “very modern talker” whose priority is “discussion with others.” (05:45)
  • Haley generally “agrees” with most of Kirk’s views, but not all. (06:20)

2. Atmosphere Leading Up to the Shooting

• The event was her first political gathering; she noticed intense emotions from the crowd, which she describes as feeling almost like a “mob.”
  • “The first thing I noticed was that there was a very tense feeling in the air… people from all over, just different spectrums of beliefs there.” (07:19)
  • Protest chants: “Before we arrived, apparently there was… a group just screaming, ‘fuck, fuck, fuck, Charlie... fuck your beliefs and whatever else.’” (07:49)

3. The Shooting: Eyewitness Recollection

• Haley was with friends, trying to get a better view. Just before the shooting, she took a selfie.
• Kirk was ironically addressing “mass shootings” when the shot was fired.
  • “I was trying to peek around someone’s shoulder to get a better look at him… and then I heard a gunshot. And it was almost like the world froze for a minute because no one said anything, no one moved.” (08:36)
  • She describes confusion, some thinking it was fireworks; then a chilling realization: “Once I realized… the terror kind of settled in that, oh, we're under shooting. Someone just fired a bullet, right?” (09:40)
• Details of panic:
  • “Someone screams, get down. I crawl to the floor. I have to drag my friend down… and I make eye contact with an older woman… she was crying and I was like, this is real. I'm going to die here, exposed and afraid.” (09:53)
  • After someone yelled "run," she and her friends scattered. One friend had directly witnessed Kirk being shot: “...he kept saying, ‘Charlie's dead, Charlie's dead, he's dead, he's dead, Charlie's dead.’” (10:55)
  • The group debated whether to seek shelter or run, eventually escaping through building tunnels to their car parked off campus—a move she calls a "blessing" because it let them avoid chaos in the main parking lots. (12:30)
• Immediate aftermath:
  • Haley called her mother, barely able to communicate: “I was telling her, like, there’s a shooter but I’m alive, I’m alive, we’re okay.” (13:55)
  • At home, she realized, “I'm never going to be able to wash off or scrub off or like sleep off that feeling of terror that overtook me and thousands of other people…” (15:15)

4. Processing Trauma & Group Debrief

• Haley and her friends gathered to process what happened:
  • “All day yesterday, right after the shooting happened, we met up at one of my friend's houses and we just talked about it.” (19:00)
  • Her friend kept repeating “Charlie’s dead.” (19:19)
  • They watched the news/video footage together, still confused and seeking information. (19:30)
  • Frustration at others’ reactions: Haley describes anger at people both celebrating Kirk’s death and “flexing” that they were almost at the event. “No one who was there and who experienced it relished the idea they had to experience it.” (20:18)
  • Panic reactions persist: Haley recounts swerving while driving later, triggered by friends’ screaming: “I'm still there, right. Mentally, I'm still in that place of fear. So...it just kind of reminded me a little bit that I wasn't safe and I would never feel safe, really, for a long while.” (22:42)

5. Family’s Support & Haley’s Emotional State

• Her mother and father tried to comfort her after the event. (23:20)
• She struggled to sleep: “I don’t think I slept until about 4 a.m. I tried writing down details… but by the time I got to the beginning of the shooting, I physically couldn’t put the pen to the paper.” (24:38)
• Haley observes the disconnect the next day as the world continues as normal despite her trauma: “It’s a bit frustrating, honestly, to see… so many people around acting so normal and doing things… when I thought I was going to die yesterday.” (25:45)

6. School, Social Media, and the Broader Reaction

• There’s a strong, visible split among her peers on how to react, some celebrating Kirk’s death, others talking about avenging it.
  • “There’s a very defined line between who thinks the death should be celebrated and who thinks the death should be avenged. And… people fighting out their different ideas of what it should be and what should happen next.” (26:35)
• Fear and anxiety remain heightened, especially knowing the shooter was still at large. (27:26)

7. Political Discourse Among Teenagers

• Political discussion is common among her friends and within her debate team: “We all have varying views.” (29:18)

8. Reflecting on Political Violence

• On violence in politics:
  • “I don’t think I’ve ever thought an assassination was justified… I honestly think political violence is very abundant on both sides of the spectrum. And I think it’s never really justified… regardless of what people believe… they have a right to life.” (30:07 – 31:18)
• The perspective of the “crowd” turned “animal-like” out of self-preservation:
  • “What struck me was… how quickly humans can turn almost animal… people were running over each other and pushing each other and trying to fend for themselves without really having a thought of what was happening around them.” (31:44)

9. A Message to Listeners and Society

• On how society processes (or fails to process) trauma:
  • “We tend to push a lot of things down… There’s a lot of things that aren’t talked about openly… I think we should be able to learn how to experience it with others.” (32:31)
• Final plea:
  • “We need to change as a world… I think it’s important that we realize that how we’re dealing with things right now isn’t okay… We are capable of change and nothing’s going to change… unless we make it.” (34:41–34:53)
  • “Regardless of whether you were in or out of the event… take action and speak on what your belief is…” (34:55)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It was almost like the world froze for a minute because no one said anything, no one moved. And I think really what was going through everyone’s mind was that a gun?”
  — Haley (08:36)

• “I looked to my right and I make eye contact with an older woman… she was crying and I was like, this is real. I'm going to die here, exposed and afraid.”
  — Haley (10:09)

• “I’m never going to be able to wash off or scrub off or like sleep off that feeling of terror…”
  — Haley (15:09)

• “You would think that this is the kind of thing that happens to other people or in other countries… The idea of America is that people are protected by what they say. The civilians shouldn’t have to fear for their lives ever.”
  — Haley (20:45)

• “Mentally, I’m still in that place of fear. So… it just kind of reminded me a little bit that I wasn’t safe and I would never feel safe, really, for a long while.”
  — Haley (22:42)

• “I think definitely before I thought political violence was a problem… I don’t think I’ve ever thought an assassination was justified… political violence is very abundant on both sides… it’s never really justified because… in the end they have a right to life.”
  — Haley (30:07–31:18)

• “What struck me was… how quickly humans can turn almost animal… people were running over each other and pushing each other and trying to fend for themselves...”
  — Haley (31:44)

• “We need to change as a world... We are capable of change and nothing’s going to change in this world unless we make it.”
  — Haley (34:41-34:53)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 5:23: Haley introduces herself and her reason for attending
• 7:19: Describing the event atmosphere prior to the shooting
• 8:36–10:09: The moment the shot was fired and crowd’s initial reaction
• 10:55: “Charlie’s dead”—panic and chaos as the crowd flees
• 13:55: Immediate aftermath and escape, calling her mother
• 15:09: Reflection on trauma’s lasting effects
• 19:00: Friends debrief, emotional reactions and consumption of news
• 20:45: Anger at social media responses and the disconnect of “almost” witnesses
• 22:42: Panic persisting in unrelated settings (driving incident)
• 24:38: Sleep problems and the surreal quality of resuming normal life
• 26:35: School and peer conversations, polarization on social media
• 30:07–31:18: Haley’s reflections on political violence and its justification
• 31:44–34:53: Animal panic response, society’s emotional suppression, and the call for change

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Closing Reflections

This emotional, unfiltered interview offers critical insight into the personal toll of political violence, the lasting psychological aftereffects for young people, and the urgent need for empathy and societal change. Haley’s narrative is both raw and reflective, providing a vital human perspective often missing from news coverage.

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Transcript

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[Will Kbach]

Hey everybody, and welcome to a special edition of the Tangle Podcast. This is Will Kbach, Tangle's senior editor. On Wednesday, we watched in Horror as the news and the video of Charlie Kirk's shooting and death spread on social media and in news outlets. In Tangle, we covered the shooting on Thursday as our main addition, and I'm sure this will be a topic that continues to come up in our future coverage. On Thursday morning, I received an email from a Tangle reader who quickly identified herself as someone who had been at the event at Utah Valley University where Charlie Kirk was shot. She said that she was interested in sharing her perspective on what happened and her reflections on the event. About 24 hours after the fact, I reached out to her, connected with her and learned a little bit more about who she was. She asked to only be identified as Haley from for this episode. She lives in Utah. She is a sophomore in high school and she was attending the event out of curiosity because she was familiar with Kirk and had followed some of his videos and was interested to see what the debate with students was going to look like. And she was in the crowd when the shooting occurred and was forced to rapidly evacuate along with her Friends and as she describes, tried to get out of the area completely on her own without really any direction from any officials or authority figures. As you can imagine, it's an incredibly visceral and, in my opinion, moving recollection of the events. And in the course of our conversation, I thought that Haley made several profound observations about how witnessing something like this changes a person immediately and forever. And I really admired her willingness to come forward and share her story, you know, so soon after a traumatic event like that. And after the conversation, it was clear that this was something that we felt would be valuable for the entire Tangle audience to hear and engage with. So that's what we'll be doing here in this episode. We haven't edited this interview in any way except to remove a few identifying details that Hayley and her family asked. We remove after the fact that you'll also hear that for the first part of our conversation, she's in a car. She's not driving, but she's a passenger in a car. And so you will hear some environmental noise, like turn signal sound of the car hitting the brakes at a few points and the like. So we understand that this is not the greatest audio quality, but this was one time opportunity to have this conversation and we felt it was important to publish, even though the audio quality was. Wasn't as good as we would have liked. Towards the end of the conversation, Hayley was in her home and the audio is much cleaner. So without further ado, we'll get right into the conversation. You know, we'd love to hear your thoughts on this and on our coverage in general, but we felt like this is a pretty unique opportunity to hear from somebody who was at the event and witnessed what happened. Here's my conversation with Hayley about the shooting of Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University on Wednesday, September 10th. Can you just set the scene for me and let me know, you know, where you are as a student, what your background is, where you're from, and what you're studying at Utah Valley?

[Haley]

Yeah, so actually I'm. I'm not actually a student at UVU. I'm 16. So I came to the campus not as a student, but with a group of friends to see the debate. I've seen a lot of Charlie Craig's videos, and I was really excited to kind of see him in person and see the debates that would happen because he's very. He's a very like, more modern talker who I think had a priority of discussion with others. And I found that it was very interesting. So that's what kind of drew me to the event at uq.

[Will Kbach]

And you mentioned that you have engaged with Kirk's content before. You're familiar with him. Would you say, if you're comfortable sharing, that your personal political views tend to align with his and the ideas that he espouses, or would you say that you more often disagree with him?

[Haley]

Yeah, so I think I. I agree with him on most topics. I think seeing some of his views, I've definitely, like, disagreed or have or have had a different opinion, but for the most part, I generally agree or, like, lead to what he leads to and on opinions, so.

[Will Kbach]

So would you say that in addition to attending, to hear the debate and hear the question and answer, that you were also maybe attending because you were a fan of his and you were interested in seeing him in person?

[Haley]

Yes, that was definitely a big part of it. Cool.

[Will Kbach]

So could you just talk me through the order of events as they transpired from where you were, and maybe could you start by just describing where you were in the crowd and where you were when the shooting occurred and what happened afterwards?

[Haley]

Yeah, of course. So me and a group of friends, one of our friends had texted me the day before and told me about this event that was happening the next day because we all kind of interested Charlie Kirk. And so I got tickets the night before, and me and my friend were actually going to go to McDonald's and, like, get food and then go and see the event at uvu, but we ended up leaving late. So we just tried going straight to UVU and finding parking, which was hard. And so we went over to the McDonald's Walmart parking lot. And that actually ended up being a really big part of how we were able to get out so quickly later on. So we parked at McDonald's. We were trying to find kind of our friends, and we walked in, and the first thing that I noticed was that there was a very tense feeling in the air. And this is my first political event that I've been to, and naturally. Right. Something like this, like a discussion, is very polarizing to groups. Right. You have, like, people from all over, just different spectrums of beliefs there. And I actually turned to my friend before one of them, when we met up with the rest of our friends, and I said, this looks almost like a mob. Not that. And there were, of course, people before. There was different groups of people saying different things. But before we arrived, apparently there was, like, a chant off, and there was a group just screaming, fuck, fuck, fuck. And we're like, fuck, Charlie. Kerr again, fuck your beliefs and whatever else. And so anyway, getting there, it was a lot of new experiences for me. Right. So we could see a lot of different signs on either side, just people sharing their beliefs, a lot of chanting, a lot of just excitement in the air. And we tried to find like a better spot. So some of our friends are like a little. Some of my friends are a little bit taller than I am. We had like about three or four guys and they were like six foot over six foot. So they could see better than me and some of my other friends could. So us girls, we went a little further down into the grass area on the first steps of the. Just of the courtyard. So we were in front of Charlie Kirk a little bit further back. And starting off, I could hear him speak. And I was really excited just seeing how he was handling different things of what people were saying. And he had started talking about mass shootings ironically while just kind of kicking off this whole thing. And I was trying, actually in the moment, I was trying to peek around someone's shoulder to get a better look at him, just to see what his expression was while trying to talk about this. And then we. And I got a little distracted actually. I took a selfie. Sounds so ridiculous now. But we were taking a selfie just seconds before the actual shooting happened. And so I took a selfie. I was putting my phone back into my pocket and turning around to say something to my friend and then to look to Charlie and. And they heard a gunshot. And it was almost like the world froze for a minute because no one said anything, no one moved. And I think really what was going through everyone's mind was that a gun? I mean, like what happened? Because I don't think anyone was expecting anything like that really. And talking about it after, some people thought it was fireworks. I thought it was a gun. I thought maybe it was a start off gun or a kickoff thing. But once I realized that there was silence, the terror kind of settled in that, oh, we're under shooting. Like someone just fired. Yeah, someone just fired a bullet, right? And so someone screams, get down. And I crawl to the floor. I have to drag my friend down next to me because she's not moving. And I look to my left and there's someone's like kneeling kind of with her head covered over. And I can see like their orange and green kind of sneaker outline. And I look to my right and I make eye contact with an older woman. She's probably my mom's age and which is like 40ish. 40 years old, and she had. I remember she had, like, freckles on her face and little. Like a little bit of wrinkles that said it. And she was crying and I was like, this is real. I'm going to die here, exposed and afraid. And I think, really, I thought my life was over and we were going to get shot. So someone screams, run. I don't know if it was a policeman or a person. And someone drags me up and we start running towards the end of the building, my group and Ira. And so I've got one person on my right, one person on my left, and I'm grabbing there by their wrists and dragging them. And I keep saying, we have to go to the exit, we have to go to the exit, we have to leave. And my friend next to me, the one who's one of the ones who was taller, actually saw Charlie get shot. And he kept saying, charlie's dead, Charlie's dead, he's dead, he's dead, Charlie's dead. And really, I didn't process it until we were actually in the building. I was like, what do you mean Charlie's dead? Like, who. Who's Charlie? And then I realized that he was saying that Charlie Crick had been shot. And so there was. There was a moment in the building, once we'd made it inside the building where we didn't know where the shooter was or if they were going, if it was a mass shooter or if he had already killed Charlie and he was going to kill other people. And so we started, I think, and we lost one of our group members. And so I was trying to figure out what to do. Everyone else was trying to figure out what to do. And we're split between staying inside the building where the shooter might be, or going outside where they also might be, because we didn't know where the shot had come from or what all had happened yet. And so I think that's when I really started just to kind of realize that I needed to get myself out of here and that no one else was going to tell us what to do. Right? There was no clear plan of how to escape the danger. And so anyway, what we ended up deciding on was going through the tunnels and back over to the Walmart and McDonald's where we parked and just running, driving out of there. So I remember calling my mom right after, and she didn't understand what I was saying, but I was telling her, like, there's a shooter, but I'm alive, I'm alive, we're okay. I'M gonna go to my friend's house and we're gonna, we're gonna wait there. We're gonna stay there. So really, it was kind of a blessing that we parked so far out because I had, I knew some other people who they're car. There was obviously a lot of car crashes right when everyone was trying to get out. My friend got his car smashed by a motorcyclist and then another car while trying to get out of the UVU parking lot. So I was really, I was really blessed, I think, that the story ended there.

[Will Kbach]

Yeah.

[Haley]

And. Oh.

[Will Kbach]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Haley]

Oh, and then what I was going to say is another thing is when I finally got home after kind of just sitting through the shock of the whole experience, I remember thinking, oh, maybe taking a shower would feel better because it's, I don't know, when something like that happens, it was just so out of body that I didn't realize what I could do to process it. So I was like, oh, I'll do what generally makes me feel better. And I just remember thinking. And then I, like got dressed and stuff and changed and I still felt the same. And I kind of realized I'm never going to be able to wash off or scrub off or like sleep off that feeling of terror that overtook me and thousands of other people when realizing what had happened and what could have happened.

[Will Kbach]

Foreign.

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[Will Kbach]

Well, that's a really powerful recounting and I really appreciate you sharing it. I have a few follow up questions. First of which is have you debriefed at all with your friends who were there with you? And if you have, what have you guys been talking about in the past day?

[Haley]

Yes. So all day yesterday, right after the shooting happened, we met up at one of my friend's houses and we just talked about it. And three of my friends who were taller who had actually seen Charlie got shot. One of them, he kind of just kept saying like, Charlie's dead. He's dead. I can't believe he's dead. And once he got out of his stupor a little bit, he looked up the news. And I remember we kind of, we were all trying to like cope in our own ways. But once someone pulled out with the phone to search the news, everyone had rushed over to just see what was happening. Because although we were there, I mean, no one was really in the know of what was going on with Charlie. Right? So yeah, we saw the news. My friend showed me the video of what actually happened to Charlie that I missed because I was distracted. And so just kind of. What else? Sorry, there's a lot of noises. I'm just gonna wait for a second. But another thing that we kind of debriefed is you would think that this is the kind of thing that happens to other people or in other countries. Right. Because the whole idea of America and its protection is that our laws are made in such that people are protected by what they say. Right. And the civilians shouldn't have to fear for their lives ever, really. And I remember looking at just different texts that people had been sending, and it made me so angry. Some people were cheering, others were trying to demonize the people who were there who didn't have anything to do with the shooting, but happened to be liberal. And it frustrated me. And there were other. And there were. Sorry. And there were other people trying to flex the fact or brag about the fact that they were almost there, that they went to the campus. And I think seeing that really frustrated me because no one who was there and who experienced it relished the idea that they were in an event like that and that they had to experience it. So. And really, I thought it might have been okay from there trying to just talk with people and see what was happening. But I remember, like, on my way home driving, I was taking other people in the. In the car, and we took a wrong turn and there was a very risky, like, swerve that I did as a driver and people in the back started screaming. And I was thrown back to just a couple hours earlier being in that mass. Really kind of just hoard of people. Right? Because I don't know, you're. You feel like very dignified and human and evolved. But in that moment after that gunshot, everyone was looking after themselves and it kind of became just a mass panic. Right. So.

[Will Kbach]

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[Haley]

Oh, yeah. And so what I was going to say is it threw me back to that panic and I really, in all honesty, we almost crashed because I spun the car around, trying to kind of regain my senses and my grip on what was happening. And so we missed the cement barrier by a little bit and we drove in and I. I don't normally swerve, by the way, ever, just because of. I don't know who I like, try to be, but I just started crying and I was like, it's the screaming. It's the fucking screaming. Like, it's like I'm still there, right. Mentally, I'm still in that place of fear. So it was very. And it wasn't anyone's fault, obviously, but it just kind of reminded me a little bit that I wasn't safe and I would never feel safe, really, for a long while. Yeah.

[Will Kbach]

Have you talked with your parents about it?

[Haley]

Yes.

[Haley's Friend]

So.

[Haley]

I obviously, like, I called my mom going right out and she, I don't think she understood the gravity of what happened at first, but once she kind of understood, she tried to help me as best she can because. And right. Just because she, I mean she didn't really know what was happening at all. And so she came to support me. Yeah. And she, she actually brought bread for everyone there at my friend's house just so we could kind of calm down a little bit. And then I came home and I talked to my dad. He was a really good help and just kind of supported me. Just helping me think through like what I felt and why I just experienced. So yeah.

[Will Kbach]

I obviously have no way to imagine what it was like to go through this. I am curious though, how things have felt today. How did you sleep last night? What was it like waking up this morning and how has the day after Ben, for you?

[Haley]

Just trying to see. Yeah. Well, the irony of all of this. A lot of people have been talking about it, but I keep saying that today is 9 11. Right. And yesterday was kind of my 911 of realizing that this, I mean obviously this has happened before in different scenarios with different people, but just the world is so broken that we're doing the same things again. Right. So just the same acts of violence. So sleeping. I don't think I slept until about 4am I tried writing down details of what had happened, but by the time I got to the beginning of the shooting, I physically couldn't put the pen to the paper because it was hard for me to think that I had been in that situation, that I still felt the so. And waking up today. I've been trying to go about life as normal, but it's a bit frustrating, honestly, to see it's not anyone's fault, but just to see so many people around acting so normal and doing things.

[Haley's Friend]

That are so normal when everyone's.

[Haley]

I mean, lives have been changed and someone just got murdered. Right. So there's also people whom just don't know what happened. And so like I just got out of a class and you know, like I obviously wasn't like, oh, hey guys, like I was in a shooting yesterday. And so it's been kind of interesting just trying to act like everything is fine and normal when I thought I was going to die yesterday. So. Yeah.

[Will Kbach]

And are. What's, what's the chatter like at school today? I mean, I think you talked a little bit about it earlier, but are your peers. Is this the main topic of discussion today? And what have you thought about the comments from people who weren't there.

[Haley]

Yeah. So a lot of people have been posting things or just talking in different groups and also just talking in person about what they can't believe. I do think there's a very like defined line kind of between who thinks the death should be celebrated and who thinks the death should be avenged. And there's been a lot of people, I was gonna say sharing but almost kind of just like fighting out their different ideas of what it should be and what should happen next. Obviously, as of now, I think the shooter's still at large and just knowing that that person is still out there and can know who was at the event is also kind of big topic of discussion right now. So seeing if we're ever going to catch him or who he is foreign.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

We'll be right back after this quick break.

[Will Kbach]

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[Will Kbach]

Are political topics often discussed with your peers? Like, is this something just in general? Would it be pretty typical for you guys to be talking about political issues?

[Haley's Friend]

Yes, there's definitely. I'm actually in debate. I have a debate class and so a lot of the time we have many discussions on different things and some of my friends kind of will just, yeah, tell me about random things that happen in politics and we'll discuss it. Because we all have varying views.

[Will Kbach]

Obviously you mentioned that there were varying views about what people felt about the killing. Some people feeling that it was justified, some people feeling like there needed to be avenged. Somehow. I'M curious to hear from your perspective what you think about political violence in general in the United States right now. And if you are concerned about it and how the events of yesterday maybe have altered your perspective.

[Haley]

Yeah.

[Haley's Friend]

To see, I think definitely before I thought political violence was a problem. I don't think I've ever thought an assassination was justified for regardless of whose it was in America generally. I think after the event, though, really, I've kind of come to realize how much it affects people from all different areas to have to, I mean, first choose right, to take the actions of violence against someone for their political beliefs. So a lot of people actually have kind of talked to me and been like, oh, it's a very leftist thing and it's. They're doing all the violence. And I don't think really that's true. I honestly think political violence is very abundant on both sides of the spectrum. And I think it's never really justified because regardless of what people believe or what they say or what they do, in the end they have a right to life. I mean, that's one of the basic parts of the American dream.

[Haley]

Right.

[Will Kbach]

My last question, but I'll open the floor up for you to give any other responses, but just in reflecting about 24 hours since the shooting occurred, is there anything else that stands out to you in your mind in the way that you are reflecting back on it or in your memory of it that maybe has changed from the immediate aftermath?

[Haley's Friend]

Yes, I think really what struck me was kind of how quickly humans can turn almost animal. Like, I mean, really, when everyone was told to scatter at the sound of the gun, people were running over each other and pushing each other and trying to fend for themselves without really having a thought of what was happening around them. So that really struck me, another thing was I really don't believe that.

[Haley]

Whatever.

[Haley's Friend]

Your belief is, like on what happened, you should be able to negate the experiences of other people.

[Haley]

So.

[Haley's Friend]

Like, and just how it's kind of struck me as interesting how in this society, a little bit like, we tend to push a lot of things down, right. So there's a lot of things that aren't talked about openly, like suicide, for example, which isn't necessarily related to politics. But I. We, yeah, we tend to look over it or to hide it when it happens to someone else. And I think it's very similar to people experiencing something that's out of the ordinary. And I think that's something that needs to change because as humans, we have things come up that are unexpected And I think we should be able to learn how to experience it with others.

[Will Kbach]

My last question would just be, is there anything else that you would say as somebody who was at a very horrific event, to the people who maybe don't understand what that experience is like and that you think is important for them to know? I know you've talked through a little bit of that already, so it's fine if the answer is no.

[Haley]

No, you're good.

[Haley's Friend]

No, I do. I'm just kind of trying to, like, formulate my words a little bit.

[Will Kbach]

Yeah.

[Haley's Friend]

I think, honestly, what I would say to someone who hasn't experienced something like that and who's kind of looking from the outside in. We need to change as a world. And part of that change is the people, regardless of what their ideas are behind what the change needs to be. I think it's important that we realize that how we're dealing with things right now isn't okay. I mean, it's not acceptable to, I think, put the lives of thousands in danger and really to have hundreds of people who last night didn't sleep at all or couldn't sleep because of what happened to them, that they're not going to be able to live down or forget or like my. Yeah. Or the people who saw him die, the people who got into crashes as a result, or the people who maybe thought they might have saw the shooter and didn't and now are regretting their decisions to now. So I think we need to remember that we are capable of change and nothing's going to change in this world.

[Haley]

Unless we make it.

[Haley's Friend]

So I think regardless of whether you were in or out of the event necessarily, I think you need to take action and to speak on what your belief is, regardless of what the belief is, just to speak on it.

[Will Kbach]

Again, really appreciate your willingness to share, especially so soon after the event, which, again, you know, I can't imagine. But I'm. Obviously, I'm happy you're safe, that you and your friends are safe, and I'm sorry that you went through this and had to go through this. But, you know, I thought just, you know, personally your reflections were really moving, and I think it'll be amazing for us to be able to share it with others, too, who are still processing this. So thank you and of course, wish you all the best.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Sol. And our executive producer is John Wolfe. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing editor Ari Weitzman, with Senior editor Will Kbach and associate editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey, Saul Lindsey Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our [e-mail].

[Haley]

Foreign.

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