Suspension of the rules. - Father's Day special.

Summary

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Tangle Podcast Episode Summary

Episode: Suspension of the Rules – Father's Day Special
Date: June 18, 2026
Host: Isaac Saul
Guests:

• John Lowell (Executive Producer)
• Bailey Saul (Isaac’s father)
• Camille Foster (Editor at Large)
• Ari Weitzman (Managing Editor)

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Overview

This special Father’s Day episode of “Tangle” departs from the usual politics news and debate to focus on fatherhood. Host Isaac Saul brings together the Tangle team and their fathers (with his own dad, Bailey Saul, joining) for a multi-generational and personal conversation. The episode explores first memories of their fathers, the quirks of family language, transitioning between phases of parenting, the values they hope to pass on to their children, and even how they approach discussing America and politics with their children. The lively, heartfelt discussion is filled with anecdotes, wisdom, humor, and some emotional moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Father's Day Episode & the Tangle Team

[02:02-05:51]

• Isaac introduces the team and special guests, setting the tone for a unique, unscripted, and personal episode.
• Team’s current life stage: Isaac and John are young fathers, Camille has two older kids, Ari is expecting his first, and Bailey is bringing the OG dad energy.

Notable quote:
"We thought this was a very special moment in time…one person on the team in kind of the pre-dad but pregnant wife phase all the way up to my father…maybe we could do something fun for Father’s Day.” — Isaac Saul [04:59]

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2. Quaker Pronouns: The Family Language Quirk

[06:02-09:58]

• Isaac and Bailey use Old English “Quaker” pronouns (“thee,” “thy,” “thine”) when speaking to each other; a family tradition that baffles outsiders but creates familial clarity.
• Stories of how and why this practice started and the social reactions to it.

Notable quote:
"My father would have explained it by saying, it's very much like the French familiar versus formal, the tu versus vous… the first time my classmates heard ‘f thee’ from a sibling was pretty shocking and hilarious.” — Bailey Saul [07:02]

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3. First Memories of Their Fathers

[10:48-21:58]

- John Lowell

[11:43]
Story about his dad tumbling during soccer and laughing it off:
"My dad was a complicated guy, but he knew how to laugh about things...he was game for a laugh, which I appreciated."

- Ari Weitzman

[13:08]
Remembers posting garage sale signs and questioning if the grass would obscure them:
"I remember that answer not being convincing...I don't know, I think the grass might grow. I think I might be right."

- Camille Foster

[14:55]
Racing with his non-biological father who didn’t let him win:
"The fact that he didn't let me win is something that has always stayed with me...they will know that day and they will remember it."

- Bailey Saul

[16:45]
Describes keeping up with his track-star sons and the realization of his father’s athletic prowess:
"I could not get away from him...when you realize that the old man actually has some prowess."

- Isaac Saul

[20:23]
Recalls being last in line at breakfast and fighting for pancakes:
"My most distinct early memory is just being in line for food at the kitchen counter, waiting to be served pancakes and just, like, wanting so badly for there to be enough left over for me."

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4. Advice for Welcoming a Second Child & Gender Observations

[22:32-32:39]

• John is expecting a second daughter and seeks advice for introducing “baby #2.”
• Bailey: “Clarify that this is not a toy…” and be prepared for sibling curiosity.
• Camille: Describes his daughter’s gentle maternal instincts with a newborn brother. Notes subtle differences between boys and girls as infants.
• Isaac jokes about the “spin, eat, smash” test his son does with objects, highlighting behavioral contrasts between boys and girls.

Notable quotes:
"They can help with this activity. But I distinctly remember being on the boathouse booth table...and Noah wandering over and he looked like he was just gonna see if those eyeballs might pop out." — Bailey Saul [23:01]
"I see myself in him all the time in ways that quietly surprise me." — Camille Foster [25:06]

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5. Tenets & Mantras of Fatherhood: Advice for Expectant and New Dads

[36:39-43:14]

• Isaac: “Don’t spend any time looking forward to the next phase. Just enjoy the one you’re in.” (Advice originally from Camille.)
• Camille: “Take their questions seriously, however kind of strange or ridiculous they may be...they’re constantly becoming these new people.”
• John: "They just want to be witnessed. They just want to be seen."
• Bailey: “Enjoy the time...I was determined to spend more time with them at a young age than my dad did with me.”
• Ari: On prep and nesting, balancing practical readiness with mental preparation.

Notable quotes:
"Every stage...don’t waste any time wishing that he was in a different place. Just enjoy the one you’re in." — Isaac Saul [37:17]
"Taking the time to slow down, take a beat, and actually address their questions, I think it matters." — Camille Foster [39:26]
"We never say 'what?' to our kid... I always say, 'Yes, darling.' I want her to know, like, it's no trouble, whatever it is." — John Lowell [42:03]

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6. Parenting Across Generations: Shifting Timeshare & Societal Patterns

[52:32-56:07]

• Bailey and Isaac discuss how time spent parenting has increased across generations and how roles have shifted towards more hands-on fathering.
• Isaac’s perspective as a “millennial dad” who witnessed increased involvement compared to previous generations.

Notable quote:
"My father's generation spent more time with their kids than the previous generation... Now they're doing something they've never really seen modeled." — Isaac Saul [55:07]

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7. How to Talk to Kids about America and Politics

[58:07-69:46]

- Camille:

Navigates his kids' perceptions formed at school; tries to “complicate the picture” and emphasize gratitude for living in America.
"We love America and we respect the president...there are challenges in every era...the present moment is so much better than what preceded it."

- Isaac:

Will instill the idea of being lucky, having rights, and not taking them for granted:
"You as an American citizen have all these extraordinary rights, and you should exercise them."

- John:

Hopes to empower his daughter to form her own opinions and recognize America as a place of opportunity.
"It's a place where you can say how you feel, even if people don't like it, you get to say it anyway."

- Bailey:

Shares stories about protests and his own active upbringing, the necessity of participation, and balancing patriotism with dissent.
"Both my parents were ahead of the curve when it came to civil rights, Vietnam War protests...I don't have to like it, but I'll defend to the death their right to say it."

- Ari:

Plans to raise his child with the ethic: “Loyalty to your country, always; loyalty to your government, when it deserves it.” (Quoting Mark Twain.) Also, intends to cultivate a local Vermont sense of community and resilience.

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8. Reflections on Turbulent Times & Parental Influence

[71:10-73:58]

• Bailey reflects on the impact of assassinations and social upheaval in the ’60s/’70s, noting the limits of parental control over how children perceive their country during turbulent times.

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9. Father's Day Appreciation: Heartfelt Farewell

[72:46-75:56]

• Isaac expresses gratitude and admiration to each participant for their parenting style and influence.
• A rare moment of vulnerability and emotion wraps the main segment.

Notable quote:
"You're a role model for patience and thoughtfulness with children...the North Star...Ari, you'll be an awesome dad. Dad, thanks for reading me the newspaper...and always openly loving thy children." — Isaac Saul [73:46–74:45]
"Like, glasses fogging up for some reason, Isaac. You asshole." — Camille Foster [75:14]

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10. Grievances of the Week

[76:06-83:14]

• John grieves the loss of his beloved dog.
• Ari deals with a birdstrike on his window; laments animal deaths.
• Isaac rants about surprise sewer maintenance fees as a homeowner.
• Camille complains about the high-pressure, “highest and best” bidding homebuying market.
• Bailey rails against unwanted, recurring credit card charges—“Impossible to reverse? Impossible my ass.”

Notable quote:
"Don’t say that to a Taurus, please." — Bailey Saul, on being told a fee is “impossible” to reverse. [82:55]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Bailey on Quaker pronouns:
  “For instance, might be an expression you hear me use… keys rattling… that’s my father, Bailey Saul.” [06:31]
• Camille on parenting:
  “They are constantly becoming these new people all the time, and there is this aspiration for my part to be in kind of constant pursuit of who they happen to be in the present moment.” [38:22]
• Isaac on teamwork:
  “My framework has changed so much so quickly and I really thought that I was going to have terrible FOMO… no, I just want to be home.” [51:21]
• Ari on Vermont values:
  “We know the names of the trees and the animals around us. We go outside no matter the weather, and we have the right clothing for it… that’s a culture I’m excited about pressing forward into this boy.” [69:46]

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Closing Tone & Takeaways

This episode is a rare and open-hearted departure from hard politics—a winding, warm, and deeply personal dialogue about dads, growing up, the challenge and privilege of fatherhood, and what it means to raise kids with intention in today’s world. Parental love, generational shifts, and the value of both tradition and present-moment awareness anchor the conversation.

Whether you’re a parent, child, or just curious about the experiences that shape thoughtful men, this episode offers real wisdom, plenty of laughs, and a few tearful moments.

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Contact:

• For nice comments: [e-mail]
• For complaints: [e-mail]

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(End of summary)

Transcript

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[Isaac Sowell]

Coming up, a very special Father's Day episode. John Law out from behind the producer's deck and my father joins us for the show. It's a very good and unique show. You guys are going to enjoy this one. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. Good evening and welcome to the Suspension of the Rules podcast. A place where you typically get some level headed and nuanced debate on the political happenings of the day. But Today's a very special episode. We're calling this the Father's Day episode. I'm here, as always, with managing editor Ari Weitzman and editor at large Camille Foster. But we have two special guests this afternoon, which I'm very excited about. The first is John Lowell, our executive producer of the show. Round of applause for John, who does all the hard work behind the camera.

[John Lowell]

Thank you.

[Isaac Sowell]

Now, out in front of the camera, and then that beautiful burly voice you hear in the background, keys rattling. That's my father, Bailey. Saul. Dad. Welcome to the show. Anything to say? Aside from the keys or.

[Paige Desorbo]

No.

[Bailey Saul]

Good to see you guys on screen. It's fun to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, we're glad to have the. This is a unique episode. I'm not entirely sure what's going to happen in the next hour, but I'm excited for it. I'll set the table or pull the curtain back on the tangle happenings a little bit, which is. We were just, you know, we've been talking about different holidays. We always check the editorial calendar. What sorts of stuff can we do tied to specific dates on the calendar that are interesting? You know, like the 250 anniversary and memorial Day happens. How are we gonna navigate that? That sort of stuff. And we saw Father's Day up on the calendar and something occurred to us. I can't remember if there's my idea or someone else's, honestly. Might have been John's. But what occurred to us was that we had this really interesting spread on the Tangled team. I am obviously a father of a one and a half year old, which I talk about sometimes on the show. John has a daughter who is how old now, John? Four.

[John Lowell]

She's four. Four and then one on the way.

[Isaac Sowell]

One on the way. Okay. I didn't want to be the one to say it. I didn't want to be the one to say it.

[Bailey Saul]

Yeah.

[John Lowell]

I don't know if I officially announced it or anything, but yeah.

[Isaac Sowell]

Okay. She's pregnant with the second kid, so

[John Lowell]

that'll be in late August, early September.

[Isaac Sowell]

Very excited for that. And then Camille has two children, four and six. Close. I'm not. Eight.

[Ari Weitzman]

Eight.

[Isaac Sowell]

God. I was gonna say eight, but then that felt too big of a spread.

[Camille Foster]

8.

[Isaac Sowell]

4 and 8. And then my father has three children, three boys, of which I'm the youngest, so he's in, like, the older your kids are grown state. And then Ari has his first child on the way. And we thought this was a very special moment in time that would never happen. Again with this sort of one person on the team in kind of the pre dad but pregnant wife phase. All the way up to my father, who edits the newsletter every day, who has three grown children, and maybe we could do something fun for Father's Day to talk about it. So I invited everybody on. I thought this would be a special way to celebrate. So first of all, a happy Father's Day to you, dad, and to the rest of the squad. And I don't know what you say to people whose wives are pregnant, Ari, but I guess we're going to have

[Ari Weitzman]

to navigate that throughout the happy impending Father's Day. This is something I feel like the Nepo baby where John checks the box that I was supposed to bring too. So I'm just like, yeah, yeah, right.

[Isaac Sowell]

I also have a dad, happy impending Father's Day. So. Okay, really quick. One thing that I want to get out of the way now because it has already become distracting for Camille, and I suspect it will become very distracting for our listeners very quickly, is that you might notice throughout the podcast that when my dad and I speak to each other, we use Old English pronouns.

[Bailey Saul]

We call them the Quaker pronouns.

[Isaac Sowell]

The Quaker pronouns. So you'll hear us, you know, instead of saying you to my dad, I will say thee and thy instead of you and your and thine instead of yours. So I might say, like, dad, can thee please figure out how to plug in thy fucking microphone? For instance, might be an expression you hear me use. In the pre production of the show, Camille asked as we were interacting, am I mishearing? Is something going on right now? Why does Isaac keep saying, I can't believe he's not.

[Bailey Saul]

He's not been clued into that long ago. But of course, you are the newest of these associations for us. So, yeah, that's something that. Well. And my father would have explained it. My father would have explained it by saying, it's very much like the French familiar versus formal, the tu versus vous. Tu is the and vous is you in the French parallel. So the thy and thine. You know, the first time my classmates heard f thee from a sibling was pretty shocking and hilarious to them. It's especially funny in those contexts where you use archaic or Shakespearean English to curse and. And wish a pox upon someone's house or whatever it is. But yeah, it was a gift from my mother because I guess both of my parents had Quaker in their families.

[Ari Weitzman]

It's also weirdly addictive, I think. Like, before the end of the show. I think one of Us is going to slip into using it as well,

[Bailey Saul]

at least before the end of the show. What?

[Ari Weitzman]

One of us is going to slip into using it, too? At least once?

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, well, My wife has started. Me and my son now. Now that he's here, she hears me using it with him. And so she started to pick up on it, which is kind of a funny thing. And it's so helpful. Like, you know, in a setting like this, when there are other people in the room, I know exactly when my dad is talking to me and not to somebody else. And when I'm in a larger group, my family, it makes it very clear and specific, too. I'll tell one quick story about this, and then we'll really start the show. Though this is very close to the Father's Day stuff. Just a year or two ago, I was sitting at a restaurant in Philadelphia next to a table of women, three women who are out to dinner. And one of the women at the table was reading text messages off of her phone between her and her aunt where they were saying thee and thy to each other. And another woman at the table was like, wait, why do you guys talk like that? And she was like, well, like, my grandparents are Quaker. And so it's this kind of, like, old English Quaker thing that sort of. And I was. And Phoebe and I, like, stopped in our tracks, and we were all just, like, listening to the table. And then finally I turned around and said, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just couldn't help but overhear you talking about this. My family also uses the and thy pronouns. And she was, like, 36 or something. And I was, like, 34 or 33 at the time. And both of us were like. We had never met anybody who had this experience. It was the first time either of us. But she was, like, from the Philadelphia area. Like, my family is on my dad's side. And, yeah, there was just some weird descendant of the Quakerism that had. That had come down.

[Bailey Saul]

So one of the really convenient things about it is that if you guys were all family and I used the word you, you would all know I was talking about more than one of you. Because if I'm saying thee, it's always singular. Always. And you is not like that without thee and thy and thine. So thy is yours, and thy or thine is yours, and thy is your without the s. And thee is you. But, yeah, it's very convenient for that. So, you know, if I'm talking to all three of my sons and I say, when are you coming I don't have to say guys, they know I mean all of them.

[Ari Weitzman]

We have the reverse of that in Pittsburgh, where it's you for anybody. But Jens versus plural, which also works.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yin's for everybody. All right.

[Ari Weitzman]

Yin's for all of us.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yin for all of us. Let's start here. I think I am curious to hear from everybody. We'll start at the beginning, which for us is our own fathers. Before we get into our experiences or forthcoming experiences in fatherhood. So just. I'm gonna time back, you guys. There's five. I have to manage a show of five very talkative people now who all have feelings. But maybe in a minute or two we could all go around to start and describe our first memories of our own fathers. Whatever's burned into our brains. And why don't we start with you, John? I feel like you've earned the first swing at this, given how much time you have to spend behind the camera listening to us gab without being able to say anything.

[John Lowell]

I appreciate that. Well, I mean, I don't know if it's the first memory, but it always springs to mind. I have this memory of my dad and I playing soccer outside. And where I lived, there's a bit of a hill and also a kind of an incline. It's a little hard to describe, but I just remember I had kicked the ball up this incline. Cause I thought that made me look strong or something like that. My dad went to go chase it and he tripped on something and came tumbling down the hill. And it's like a long tumble. And I was scared. I was like, I hope he's okay. I got down to the other side and he was on his back and he just starts laughing. And I just. I don't know what it is about that, but it just. My dad was a complicated guy, but he knew how to laugh about things and he had like a tough life. So like for him to just like fall and like, just like crack his head and his back was hurting and everything like that. But he still laughed about it just cause he thought it was so goofy. That's like the kind of thing I remember about him on top of all the other things. But he was just like. He was game for a laugh, which I appreciated.

[Isaac Sowell]

Ari, how about you? Next? That's a great memory.

[Ari Weitzman]

I remember a lot of things from when I was really young. I have a lot of memories from like learning to walk, even like being pushed in a stroller and being carried by my mom. So a lot of my early memories are of My mom. But the earliest that I can remember from my dad, I think I might have been like three, maybe. We were putting up signs to advertise a neighborhood garage sale and yard sale event that was on our cul de sac of like 10 houses or so. And my dad brought me to the end of the street with our other neighbor, Vince. Vince Miller. I remember big guy with a very Pittsburghy accent. And Vince and my dad were stopping cars that were passing us and asking them if they thought the location they had put the sign in was going to be noticeable for vehicles that were driving by. And the only thing that I remember was one guy was like, yeah, I don't know, I think the grass might grow up and block that. So I'm not sure. And Vince was like, yeah, the garage sale is next week, so we think it'll be fine. He's like, yeah, but if you leave it there, like, the grass might go and get it. He's like, all right. And then the guy drove off. And then my dad's like, I think we don't have to worry about that. And he's like, dad, is he right, though? Like, maybe the grass will grow. And he's like, it's going to take a couple months, kid, like, for the grass to grow that tall. So I think we're all right. And I just remember that answer not being convincing. I guess. A three year old. I'm like, I don't know. I think that grass might grow. I think I might be right.

[Isaac Sowell]

Very particular Ari memory there. There's. There's some depth to that. All right, Camille, you're up.

[Camille Foster]

Well, you know, I should clarify that the man who raised me is not my biological father. My biological father did not have much of a relationship with him. And while I have some memories, I don't think that they're worth sharing. But my dad, the thing that I. And this memory, like, always plays back in my mind is us having a race. And my dad was a little over 20 years older than my mom, who had me when she was quite young. And at 8, 9 years old, I am aware of the age difference. He's an older man, and I guess I just never seen him run. He was an athlete. He played football, actually, as a kid, and he played before the NFL was fully integrated, so he played for the semi pro Negro team. And yeah, he beat the hell out of me in this race. And I just. I remember us starting and me feeling extremely confident, and then I just heard this roar come from beside me and he accelerated and just Took off and housed me. And I was so impressed by this man who I was sure, as a kid I would be. And the fact that he didn't let me win is something that has always stayed with me. And it's something that I have used as an excuse to just embarrass my children whenever I get the. When we're competing in some sort of athletic competition, there'll be a day when they beat me at things, but they will know that day and they will remember it. But for now, Daddy is still vital and he can still hop in the ocean and swim laps and he can still outrun you and outlift you and out everything you.

[Ari Weitzman]

So, yeah, I know that this wasn't the question, but like, Bailey, do you remember the first time you were beaten by your kids in, like, an athletic event?

[Isaac Sowell]

Good question.

[Bailey Saul]

Do I. Yeah, I'm still waiting,

[Isaac Sowell]

right? Yeah, fucking right.

[Bailey Saul]

No, I remember. I remember noticing when they could start to out throw me, they had to get through high school to be able to outrun me. I was still pretty quick, in my late 30s and early 40s. And in fact, when, you know, there are kids in our summer ultimate league who come into the league who have told me their dads remember me. And I asked them, well, what does your dad remember? And this kid says, he said, you were quick as shit. And I said, now, see, that's accurate. He's got a good grasp on how things work. And it's funny, I mean, my earliest memory of my father was probably, you know, setups. They're evoked by photographs we have of family portraits that he took mom and the four kids, you know, at certain ages. And I remember we always had fun. And we were laughing as we set this up. Even though we were dressed nicely, there was always joking going on. And it was sort of a sweet family time. But I also have a memory very much like Camille's, where I discovered the athlete that my dad was and where I got some of my own athletic skills and speed. I hadn't really known that he played soccer all through prep school at Germantown Friends here in Philadelphia, and then was captain of Harvard's soccer team. And like many Ivy League sports, they were way better than people gave them credit for. And so we had a little game of touch football at his mom's place on Westview street in Philadelphia. Big, beautiful backyard. And I was an 8th grade track star who was just confident I was gonna roast this poor old pot bellied son of a guy. And, you know, I was getting ready to run around the end, and just escape him. And everywhere I went, he was standing in front of me.

[Camille Foster]

Wow.

[Bailey Saul]

I could not get away from him. And we actually talked about this the night before he died because

[Isaac Sowell]

he had

[Bailey Saul]

ALS and lived three years with that disease with the help of wonderful healer in New York, which is a whole nother story. And the cat was with him and his wife while she was feeding him dinner and sat on the phone, which dialed me up. And I was sort of whistling on the phone. And Judy noticed it, picked up the phone, said, oh, Bailey's calling. And picked up the phone, and I said, no, Judy, you called me. And she said, oh, I'm so sorry. That must have been Nora. The cat's ass called you. Actually, it wasn't me, but let me give you to your father. And she handed him the phone, and we had a lovely little chat. And somehow this episode came up. And after I described how he was, I said, I remember that he was everywhere I went in front of me, standing. Then he said, I seem to remember scoring untouched around the left ear. And I sort of hung my head and went, yeah, yeah, God damn it. Yes, that's true. That's true. He did. So he also roasted my ass that day. And it was at once one of my most embarrassing but most enjoyable humiliations. You know, when you realize that the old man actually has some prowess. He sucked that gut up and just let it, you know, let it lead him around the yard way faster than I could.

[Isaac Sowell]

That's good. I like that. There's a theme developing here, though. My first memory, I'll say, of the dad is less physical, though I do have very. I have very early memories of sailing together in Cape Cod and being on the boat and being kind of like on a little sunfish or catamaran and being terrified while the kind of work the things and ducking the boom every time it came around. But I think my very earliest memory is actually food related, which is hearing thy voice yell out that breakfast was ready and then, like, tumbling down the stairs or from the family room and fighting for position with my older brothers Noah and Ruben, to, like, await pancakes or bacon and usually getting steamrolled and then kind of circling back and, like, begging thee for seconds and getting slipped bacon or pancakes or something that I missed from the first round. Yeah, so that is like, my most distinct early memory is just being in line for food at the kitchen counter, waiting to be served pancakes and just, like, wanting so badly for there to be enough leftover for me after my brothers beat me to the kitchen and then like or if they didn't beat me just like showed up and threw me into the back of the line and then took the pancakes and the always finding one and make sure I ate. Which I appreciate. It helped me grow full time job. Yeah. I love it.

[Camille Foster]

Wow.

[Isaac Sowell]

It's very distinct. All answers. I wasn't sure what everybody was going to say, but I like that there is a good athletic trend here. We're now Camille, you have a boy and a girl. John, you have a girl and I can't remember. Do you know the gender? Are you waiting to find out of incoming baby?

[John Lowell]

Nope. We know we have another girl on the way which I'm stoked about. I'm very excited about that.

[Ari Weitzman]

That'll be interesting to see Lils as a sister to another girl. That yeah, we'll see how that'll work out.

[Isaac Sowell]

How about maybe a relevant. We can make this a useful exercise for John. I'd be curious advice Camille and Dad, I suppose on introducing baby one to baby two. That seems tricky. I don't know if what the strategy. Camille, you had a almost exact same age spread, right? Camille, four year old to that's what John's going to be. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Lowell]

Crazy.

[Bailey Saul]

Yeah. Well those right there's the first thing that you have to do is just clarify that this is not a toy. This is not a new activity for them though it can be in certain ways and they can help with this activity. But I distinctly remember V being on the boathouse booth table just a few months old and Noah wandering over and he looked like he was just gonna see if those eyeballs might pop out.

[Isaac Sowell]

Will those come?

[Bailey Saul]

And I'm like Noah, no, no, we're not going to try that. No.

[Isaac Sowell]

Camille, what did you.

[Bailey Saul]

Of course, Isaac's constant expression as a baby was WD just rich alert brothers bouncing around the room.

[Camille Foster]

Yes. A kind of oblivious astonishment in the early days. Like constantly amazed by everything. You know, it's funny, I think gender differences are not really a thing except they are. And my daughter has this. Had this innate kind of maternal thing going on. And as soon as Cohen came home, we didn't really do much in the way of explaining how to handle him or any of that other stuff. She just seemed to intuit it right away and she wanted to cradle him and was very gentle. And it was really extraordinary to see. I think for me, interestingly John, like I fully expected that number two was gonna be a girl. I had just after four years you become so accustomed to being a girl. Dad. And when we finally got pregnant again and it took. And that is. I always feel strange saying that we got pregnant again, but I've done it.

[Ari Weitzman]

I think the theory that I like with that Camille is like, we may get pregnant, but she is pregnant.

[Camille Foster]

Yes.

[Ari Weitzman]

Like, she's caring and she's pregnant.

[Camille Foster]

She's doing all the work.

[Ari Weitzman]

We have now achieved pregnancy.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yes.

[Ari Weitzman]

And she's doing it.

[Camille Foster]

Yeah, we achieved it. I certainly helped in the in and the practicing, and I enjoyed that.

[Bailey Saul]

You're a good man, Charlie Brown.

[Camille Foster]

Thank you, sir.

[Isaac Sowell]

Thank you.

[Camille Foster]

I should have medals. It was wonderful, but I fully expected it to be another girl. And I can remember the kind of shock and surprise. Not quite disappointment at all, but just shock and surprise. And I was like, whoa, it's a boy. I'm gonna have a son. And then when he arrived and showed up, an experience I've had over and over again since he's gotten here, is just having these moments of recollection related to my own childhood and upbringing in a way that I just didn't with Leah. With Leah is just this persistent love affair and me kind of falling madly in love with this girl. And with Cohen, I just. I see myself in him all the time in ways that quietly surprise me.

[Isaac Sowell]

John, what's your strategy gonna be home, Taking the baby home from. I'm sure you've thought about this and read a bunch of stuff about it.

[John Lowell]

Just, I mean, well, really quickly, just to follow up on something Camille said. Summer had imagined that this was going to be a boy. And I said I was kind of trying to will it into existence, and I wanted it to be a girl because I really enjoy being a girl, dad. And the day we got the call, Summer was so confident. She's just like, the person called. And they were like, all right, you ready to know the gender of the baby? Like, yes. And Summer's like, yeah, sure, whatever. It's gonna be a boy. Just go ahead and tell us. She's like, it's a girl. And Summer's reaction. Summer's reaction was what? And mine was, yes,

[Bailey Saul]

I win. The odds are that your second child will be the same gender as your first. That's simply most likely. And if you have two of the same gender, the odds increase that the third will also be of that gender.

[Isaac Sowell]

Interesting. I haven't fact checked that, but it sounds right. Yeah.

[John Lowell]

Yeah, it feels authoritative.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, it feels authoritative.

[John Lowell]

Just in terms of lilz. She seems excited to be a big sister. So, you know, like many, many, many kids her age, she's obsessed with frozen. She calls herself Elsa, and she's now eagerly awaiting her Anna. So I think it's gonna be fine. The one thing though, I will say this, and this is like one of those things that just, it's kind of just amazing what you think kids know and what they are aware of. But she said to my wife the other day, she said to Summer, mama, I know you're gonna be busy with the new baby, so I'm gonna be spending more time with Dada. And I'm really excited.

[Ari Weitzman]

Oh, wow, that's nice.

[Bailey Saul]

And just like, that's like big girl stuff right there.

[John Lowell]

I can't. Im like, I don't remember being that self aware. I think I was like smashing Ninja Turtles on the ground or something like that.

[Bailey Saul]

How old is she?

[John Lowell]

She's four.

[Isaac Sowell]

Oh yeah.

[Ari Weitzman]

I encountered very briefly Lils and you interacting at your home over a year ago now. And I think I would describe her as like borderline problematically precocious.

[John Lowell]

Problematic is right. She, she's like, she's, she's reading, she's writing. She, she was, I mean, she was reading. No one will believe us either, which was strange. But she was like reading at like

[Camille Foster]

two and a half. It was, you're right.

[Isaac Sowell]

I don't believe that. I buy it.

[Ari Weitzman]

Believe it.

[John Lowell]

So terrifying that she could just like actually make out words. I think it's mostly just that she's got a great memory. So she can like, if she hears a word, she sees it, she knows how to repeat it.

[Bailey Saul]

But I mean, isn't it all it is really?

[John Lowell]

That's all it is?

[Bailey Saul]

The first word of memorizing words and letters.

[Ari Weitzman]

The first word I read was an exit sign. Like that's kind of cheating. I think that's how it works.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, I like that.

[Bailey Saul]

You know, this whole gender thing was funny because we decided not to find out the gender of our second pregnancy. And we were on the way to Cape Cod with our very active first boy, Ruben, and we met. We sat in the booth next to a couple who had a boy and a girl. And we asked them, they said, we see you're pregnant, but do you know what it is? And we said, no, we're trying to decide whether to find out or not. And I remember my mother asking them, which do you think is easier? And they sort of thought for a minute and then they said, it really doesn't matter. I mean, one beats you up physically, the other does it emotionally, you know, meaning the boy and the girl. So it does, you know, and behrouz thought thy mother's philosophy always was, oh, I want a boy. They're just so much easier, you know, feed them and give them a warm place to sleep and poop and they're going to be fine. And essentially, I mean, you know, if you really wanted to still it down to stupidity, it can be that simple. And I think we were lucky. I mean, they all enjoyed each other's company. They still do. Even though Isaac was definitely abused early on, we had to keep an eye on that.

[Isaac Sowell]

Thank you for acknowledging that.

[Bailey Saul]

Yeah, he definitely got the crappy end of the stick more often than we intended. And when we had a young man living with us in high school, we got to a point where I had to have a little discussion with him, that his quickest ticket out was to join Isaac's older brothers in ganging up on him. And that that was something up with which I would not put, as my dear old dad used to say, shout

[Isaac Sowell]

out to Vinos, who's a regular podcast listener, probably tuned in right now. So.

[Bailey Saul]

And he was very emotional and sweet about that and complied instantly. And I asked him if he was okay and his reply was to say, yeah, of course. I just wish I had a dad who, you know, took up for me the way you do for Aisa. And that just, oh God, one of my many sons. So, yeah, those things were interesting, those encounters with other pregnant people early on,

[Isaac Sowell]

I do think I've learned, you know, we were, when we had Omri, Phoebe and I's only experience with our siblings and their kids were all nieces, daughters. And so like we had this vision of what it was like to have a two year old or a one and a half year old and how they would behave, you know, in a room while everybody was eating dinner that was solely defined by three well behaved girls, which has not been my experience with Omri. It's really odd. He won't like sit down and color for 30 minutes straight without any interrupt.

[Bailey Saul]

Henry the Barbarian.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, he just kind of waddles into a room and my new thing that I've been explaining to people, they ask about his behavior and I say basically anytime he sees a new object, he has this three part test he does. He tries to see whether he can spin it because he's really obsessed with tires and stuff. So he gives it a quick slap and sees if he can spin it. If that doesn't work, he puts it in its mouth. Puts it in his mouth and tries to eat it. And if eating fails, then he immediately tries to break it. And those are the. Basically, it's spin. No. Can he eat it? No. If not. Okay, smash time.

[John Lowell]

Right. Spin.

[Bailey Saul]

Ingest. No. Smash.

[Isaac Sowell]

And literally, Phoebe just a few weeks ago brought home this beautiful wooden lamp that goes in our dining room that's like five feet tall and it has these nice little ridges that are all beautifully carved. And yeah, we set the lamp up, he woke up in the morning, did a double take on it, went over to it, ran his fingers across it, didn't work. Grabbed it, tried to take a bite out of it. That didn't work, and then immediately just started shaking it and smashing against the wall. Seeing it, I was like, I don't know what this, what to make of this behavioral style. Yeah, it's been different than all the little girls I know. And what I've gleaned is the girls tend to develop that kind of behavior more advanced. They're a little slower physically at that age, but are better verbally and have longer focus. And on average, not a rule, just a generality. But I've certainly observed that. We'll be right back after this quick break. One of the biggest sighs of relief I had recently was when I finally got life insurance. With a newborn son at home and my wife, who I want to make sure is taken care of forever no matter what happens to me, getting life insurance was just one of those things that took a big weight off my shoulders. Ethos makes getting life insurance fast and easy 100% online, you can get a quote in seconds, apply in minutes, and get same day coverage. There's no medical exam. You just answer a few simple health questions. You can get up to $3 million in coverage, and some policies are as low as $30 a month. And you'll get your lowest rate from their network of trusted carriers. Ethos has 4.8 out of 5 stars on Trustpilot with over 4000 reviews. So take 10 minutes to get covered today with life insurance through Ethos. Get your free [e-mail] Tangle that's Ethos E T H O S.com Tangle Application times may vary and rates may vary. When people talk about energy recovery and performance, what do they usually overlook? The truth is, it's fiber. Most people think fiber is just about staying regular. But fiber actually plays a major role in energy stability, recovery, focus, and overall performance. Once you understand how gut health works, momentous Fiber plus stops feeling like just another supplement and starts feeling foundational. As a lifelong athlete, I'm always looking for the edge and the kinds of supplements that can really make me feel better in my body. And I have to say, I feel like I've found it with Momentous. Whether I'm using their creatine chews or their momentous fiber plus, I have to say I just feel a lot better. I don't usually advertise supplements, but these are some of the best in the industry used by professional athletes and, of course, people like me who are just trying to stay fit and feel good. Right now, Momentous is offering our listeners up to 35% of your first order with promo code Tangle. Head to livemomentous.com and use the promo code Tangle for up to 35% off your first order. That's livemomentous.com promo code Tangle. I guess here's something that this all makes me think, like, as a. I guess a jump ball to the room, but I'm thinking about Ari sitting here with incoming baby, and I'd love to hear, like, one core tenet of fatherhood that you tell yourself as, like, an act of wisdom that I'll. That we could sort of impart onto Arya or offer up maybe as advice to him or other fathers listening. On this Father's Day episode, I will go first to sort of set the table. And this is one that I got from a dear friend of mine named Camille Foster who told me before Omri was born. He said, or actually, maybe it was shortly after Omri was born. He said, don't spend any time looking forward to the next phase. Just enjoy the one you're in. Which was great advice because when Omri was like, a week old, all I could talk about or think about was like, oh, I can't wait till he can walk and talk and whatever. And Camille was like, dude, you will miss this part and every stage. It's like, don't waste any time wishing that he was in a different place. Just enjoy the one you're in. Which has become a mantra that I give to myself. Whenever Omri's like, you know, he's going through some stage or something where he's, like, grabbing or biting, and I think, I can't wait for him to get out of this. And I'm like, no, I will miss this part. I'll miss this stage. I should embrace it and enjoy it.

[Bailey Saul]

Exactly. Like listening to Faye, thy niece, talk about her little brother.

[Isaac Sowell]

Well, he can't play yet.

[Bailey Saul]

He can't talk yet.

[Ari Weitzman]

He can't.

[Isaac Sowell]

You know, she lists all the things

[Bailey Saul]

he cannot do yet and that she can't for him to be able to do. But now that he's doing some of them, you know, I think the old careful what you wish for sequence is about to arrive because he's getting a lot more attention, of course. But, yeah, that's.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah. All right. So my fatherhood mantra advice, maybe that you catch yourself saying to yourself that maybe you'd impart on a soon to be father, as if there were one on the podcast right now, and pretend

[Ari Weitzman]

that he's, like, open to hearing it.

[Camille Foster]

Hmm. Well, maybe I'll go second here. And Isaac, thankfully gave my perhaps best piece of parenting advice. The second, though, is one that's for when they get a little bit older. Ari, since you got the early advice, I have to constantly remind myself of this, but I think it's really important to take their questions seriously, however kind of strange or ridiculous they may be, even when you're getting that kind of recursive. Why? Why? Why? I think there's something important about just respecting these tiny humans and taking their inquiries seriously so that you're constantly in discussion with them. As Isaac mentioned, you know, this whole paying attention to the phase that you're in, they're constantly becoming these new people all the time. And there is this aspiration for my part to be in kind of constant pursuit of who they happen to be in the present moment. And I think one of the best ways to do that is to just be in dialogue. And it is so easy. Like, we get so busy, we have these demanding jobs and lives that are filled with all sorts of other stuff, and you're getting the questions, and it's easy to just kind of blow them off, especially when it's a kind of a silly, a ridiculous question. But taking the time to slow down, take a beat, and actually address their questions, I think it matters. I get the sense that they appreciate and really do understand when they're getting meaningful attention from you.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, that's a good one. I will say, with the nieces and nephews I have at that age, at the Y age, I struggle with that. And sometimes they ask questions that I'm like, you know, like, why. Why are there thunderstorms? Why does it rain like that? I'm like, oh, my God, I don't know the answer.

[Camille Foster]

They're great questions.

[Isaac Sowell]

It really makes me realize, like, I really wish I could remember seventh grade science. I'm like, there is hot. There's cold pressure and warm pressure, and the clouds come together and it creates moisture.

[Bailey Saul]

That's a good start. Yeah, yeah.

[Isaac Sowell]

They're like, well, why? And I'm like, I don't know. Nothing about this is easy for me to remember. Yeah, that's a good one. Any others open for.

[John Lowell]

I mean, again, a lot of this stuff just comes later. Those first few months are just, you know, they're precious. They do go really, really quickly. I don't even know where the time has gone. Sorry, give me one second. Hey, Some. We're recording, like, a whole episode right now, and you're, like, doing the most. She just came in and, like, pulled the drawer open. She's, like, ripping paper.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, it sounds like she was tapping on a keyboard.

[John Lowell]

Thank you.

[Isaac Sowell]

If you want a Summer appearance, flexing her pregnant belly, you have to go to our YouTube channel.

[Bailey Saul]

I love it.

[John Lowell]

You just made the episode, babe. Just so you know, you're looking good, Dominic. The later advice is the. It may be a little bit of a tag onto what Camille is saying there, but just understanding how much they want to be witnessed. They just want to be witnessed. They just want to be seen. Like, everything they do that is kind of just like, oh, look, you drew a line on a piece of paper. Like, it's, you know, after the hundredth time they've done it, you're kind of like, yeah, okay, I've seen the line job.

[Bailey Saul]

Yeah, right, right.

[John Lowell]

But they are just, like, so, like, hoping for you to be so impressed and. And. And thoughtful and loving about what you say to them. Like. And it's. It can be hard at times to remember kind of again in that pursuit of being a provider or whatever it is. But just. I tell Summer, and we try to make this, like, a thing all the time. We never say what to our kid. We never say what to Lilia. So she says something. I always. She says, da, da, da, da, da, da. I always say, yes, darling. And that's just a thing because I want her to know, like, it's no trouble, whatever it is. I might be doing something, but I see you, and I know you just want to be seen as well.

[Isaac Sowell]

Ari, what's the. Like, where are you at mentally right now? Because you're getting close.

[Ari Weitzman]

We're getting close.

[Isaac Sowell]

I'm curious. Like, take me back to. I'm trying to remember what I was going through at like, eight and a half months or whatever it is, but where's your head at? Are you feeling, like, wholly prepared? Terrified. What's your current state?

[Ari Weitzman]

For me, personally, I think that I've been telling people for going on nine months now is as much as you can ever feel like you're ready. I don't know when I felt like I was kind of ready for that step to be a dad. We weren't in a good place as a couple yet to be able to have a kid. We weren't even engaged. When I felt ready, like, I felt a paternal drive. So when I felt that feeling, I got a dog, and my dog's 12,

[Bailey Saul]

so that was a minute ago.

[Ari Weitzman]

Yeah. So, like, I've. I've been looking forward to this for a while. And when people are like, man, getting close. Are you nervous? I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm not nervous. I think, like, it'll happen, and the things that happen will happen, and we'll get through it. The place where we're at as a household is I live with a person who is a professional researcher and a serial planner. And we're just a year and a half into our home. So I have been with somebody who has been nesting for 18 months. And now my wife has taken off work, so she's officially beginning her leave starting this week. And it is overdrive. The floor mats in the cars are getting washed and scrubbed down. The. It looks like we just had a vinegar clean of our cookwares downstairs, according to the things that I can smell. And, like, the baseboards are getting clean. And she has a lot of drive right now. Like, I can kind of see the nesting phase, even for somebody who's a nester, is getting kicked up another notch. And. Yeah, the nursery's ready. It's been ready for, like, a month. We've got our lists. The lists have been printed and out for, like, a month. So now we're, like, going back over drafts and revising. It's very much what you would expect from a household with, like, an editor and a professional researcher in it, I think.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, that tracks to me. Yeah, there's no. I'm gonna be very curious to see when this baby arrives and in what fashion. Cause having just done it so recently, I, like, it was nothing like what it was a little bit like what I imagined, but mostly nothing like what I imagined. Especially for me, because as I told in the story that I wrote in Tangle, it was Basically the best 24 hours of my life, because the commanders had just beaten the Lions in the NFC playoff game. And then I came home, and Phoebe told me, I think I'm going into labor right now. And I just immediately started weeping. This is the best day ever. Yeah. And so I just. I'm excited to see we've got some. There's plenty of gambling going on behind the scenes in the Tangle Slag channel. But I'm curious to just see how the arrival actually happens.

[Bailey Saul]

Cause, you know, the actual date and all that.

[Isaac Sowell]

The actual date and just like what's going on and what's gonna go possibly.

[Ari Weitzman]

What could we have not anticipated? I'm excited about that too. I mean, as much as I'm nervous about the fact that it's an enormous medical thing that's happening to the person that I love more than anything in the world. Like it. It's all the most interesting things in life are the things that you're sort of like hanging on to, like a rodeo steer. And I think anytime things go 100% according to plan, it's like, I don't know, doesn't feel like it has the full scent of life to it. So whatever ends up happening, I'm also very curious to see what it is and I'm. I'm eager for that experience.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, there is a Go ahead, Camille. We'll be right back after this quick break.

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[John Lowell]

Oh, sorry, it was me. I've got a. I've got a question that's kind of actually related to this that I wanted to ask everybody, but this is kind of like, I want to get Ari's answer to this now and then his answer later, after. After the baby's born. But the question I have is, what's something you worried about during the time of pregnancy that ended up not being a big deal after the kid was born?

[Ari Weitzman]

If you're asking me first, I don't know enough yet. I think the thing that I'm. But, like, the thing that I've been worried about the most over the last month, I guess it's just like, what position he's in in the womb. Just like we've seen now a couple sonograms where he's in this particular position. He's, like, very well located the way that you'd want him to be. And he's descended even in the last couple of days. But every sonogram, he's got his hand up to his face. It's like. Like this. Like, he's sort of, like, ready to punch or he's on the phone and I'm like, I hope he's gonna. He's gonna be able to, like, control that arm when it comes down. He's gonna be able to move it. Like, what does that mean? Does it mean, like, is he sucking his thumb? Is he gonna have a weird, like, thick where he touches his face too much? I think I touch my face too much. Is that something he's going to get from me, or is he going to be, like, a fight? Is he going to come out punching? Like, we had a friend who said their kid came out punching the world. Is that what she meant by that? Or is it, like, bad?

[Bailey Saul]

Is his arm forming weird just means he's already working?

[Ari Weitzman]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Bailey Saul]

It's just where his arm is on the phone.

[Ari Weitzman]

So, like, those thoughts cascade a little bit and then they kind of quickly go. And I'm like, yeah, it's just where his arm is. I guess we can't control anything about it, so we can't worry about it. But that's as much as there is a thing that's worrying me. It's just like, is he ready? Is he set up well right now? And I'm probably going to be asking a version of that question for 80 years.

[Isaac Sowell]

I think that it's a good John, I would say My pre birth worry was like selfish. Very. I mean transparently, very selfishly. Like how much less time I was going to have with sort of friends and to party and travel and go out and just like, you know, enjoy the nightlife and just like knowing that this was gonna be this huge limiting thing. And I think what I underestimated was just how much immediately that would all seem like meaningless and didn't really matter at all and hasn't like a. I still. It's actually not that hard to like travel with kids. I think that's a totally overblown thing. I hate to. I just. Maybe that's gonna upset some people. I think it's a totally overblown thing. I have a one and a half year old. It's getting harder. I'm sure it gets harder. I'm sure there are periods where it'll be really hard, like certain ages and stuff. But I have friends who have like two or three kids who I feel like they've figured out how to travel with them as a group and I've witnessed it and I'm like. So like the traveling hasn't really been impeded that much and like I definitely go out less and spend less time with my friends like socially. But the times I do are so much more joyous and eventful and I'm never like at home putting Omri to bed like God, I wish I was out right now. It's just like a very rare. I feel like my framework has changed so much so quickly and I really thought that was going to be. I was going to have like terrible FOMO and whatever and it's like no, I just like I actually want to be home with him and I want to be fresh in the morning when he wakes up at 6am screaming like a banshee and like ready for that. So I don't want to stay out till one in the morning or whatever. And I think like that changed the most for me from what I was worried about before versus what actually happened after.

[Bailey Saul]

I never really got to mention my early parenting advice, but we also had a dog first who basically adopted us while we were taking a trip across the country. And shortly after we were married and Cleo rode with us from the Navajo Nation in Arizona out to the west coast, up to Pacific Northwest, back through Chicago and home to Maryland on basically a three quarter trip around the country. Sat between us in the little Nissan and when we got home to Takoma park and she came in the house and smelled us everywhere, she knew the trip had ended and this was going to be it. And that was really fun to watch. And she taught us amazing things just by her existence. So I think both of us felt we were much better prepared for our first child than we would have been had we not known this dog or had this dog. And, you know, I think Camille's advice of enjoying every phase as they're happening and don't worry about the next one is critical. My father loved his work and so I don't remember seeing him much at all in my formative years, which is why, you know, my earliest memories of him were so few and far between. It wasn't that he didn't care for us, it was just the way things were at that time in those days. And Isaac's mom and I were. Beru and I were very much into the equal sharing. You know, you couldn't have kept me out of the kitchen making food for these boys. And of course, when Reuben went to daycare initially and started going into kitchen and cooking all his classmates breakfast, all the moms wanted to know who's modeling this for this child. Said, oh, his dad. Yeah, his dad is in the kitchen all the time, you know, and this was, this was my great joy. I mean, it's one of the things you do. It's the modern day equivalent to hunting for the family, you know, as much as shopping is. So I always enjoyed that. And my, you know, my advice would just be enjoy the time. I was determined to spend more time with them at a young age than my dad did with me. And I think that's shown huge dividends for our relationships over the years, no question about it. And theirs, all three of them together.

[Isaac Sowell]

It is interesting the way the parenting timeshare has changed over the last few decades. I just read this piece from Derek Thompson a few weeks ago about this, about just like the millennial dad, my generation is spending more time with their kids than ever before. And like my dad's generation spent more time with their kids than the previous generation. Just how much it's shifted and it's still, you know, across the country in America at least, on average, moms are carrying more of the, like, the parenting workload, which I'm sure would not surprise anybody. But just like that shift has been, I think, really impactful on society as a whole and is, you know, creating this, like, this current generation of dads, I feel like, who are finding a balance between work and childcare that's kind of unlike anything that's happened before. I saw an interesting video, you Know, I mean that I think in the popular culture it is a very common thing. You read the Atlantic or something, there's all these think pieces about all the ways dads are falling short. It's still a cultural topic. And I think on the whole, there's probably a lot of merit to that in terms of just the weight that the mental load that moms carry. But at the same time, it is an interesting. I was saying, I saw this Instagram video, this woman who was like, shout out to all the millennial dads doing something most of them have never seen modeled before. Which is. I mean, what my dad just said is true for me. He was always super involved, coming to all of our sports games and chaperoning Frisbee, and he coached the teams I played on and made dinner every night. And I very much felt like he was present. But I think for a lot of millennial dads my age, they sort of experienced the last generation of fathers who were not that present, who were really work dominant. Yet now they're doing something they've never really seen modeled, which is kind of like an interesting modern day phenomenon. This is a politics show. So I did want to inject a little bit of politics into what has otherwise been a very lovely conversation. And I guess I'm curious to hear how you might talk about the state of the country to your children right now, which is interesting. My dad's answer to this, I think will be different, given that I'm a grown man who writes about politics for a living. But for us, the parents of young children, like, you know, and Ari, this is one. I mean, as an expectant father, I think you could answer too, like how you imagine you'll talk about the country

[Bailey Saul]

to your child or how I might talk to my grandchildren about it.

[Ari Weitzman]

I think I know how you would because I'm in the dock with you every day. So I can answer if you want.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, I mean, I. Yeah, I don't know. I'm curious. And maybe we can start with you, Camille. Like what? Yeah, what's your framework for describing America to your children in this kind of moment that we're living through?

[Camille Foster]

It's a really interesting question. I mean, it's not as though they aren't being primed with things at school. My kids go to school in Marin County, California, just outside of San Francisco. Unsurprisingly, they have heard all sorts of horrible things about Donald Trump and the kind of destructive, awful menace that he is. They just call him Trump. I hate Trump. And they'll talk about the things that they hate, and they mention Trump. And I perhaps, true to form, attempt to complicate the picture just a little bit. And I also talk to them about, he's the president. And we in this household, we love America and we respect the president. And I do try my best, to the extent it's possible, to help them understand that the country itself is this kind of unique gift that plenty of other people wish they could live here. They know that Gigi, my mom, is from Jamaica, and that my family immigrated to America looking for a better life. So I at least introduce these concepts. And certainly there are challenges, but I think my own perspective formally is there are challenges in every era, and I hope at least that America is not in decline. So I certainly don't tell them that. And to the extent there are things that frighten me and concern me about the state of the country, I'm not talking to them about that yet. And I'm not sure what the right or appropriate age will be for talking about that. I think the thing that is best to understand is that the present moment is so remarkable and so much better than what preceded it in virtually every way imaginable. So I can kind of be my dispositionally optimistic self in that context and just try to help give them a sense of the context that they find themselves in. And I hope that takes hold. I don't know that any of that is working just yet. I don't know that either of them are particularly patriotic. Cohen does talk about the military a bunch, but I think that's just because he's in that phase.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I also. There's no. You know, I don't think I'm going to be communicating to Omri anytime soon about the virtues of a free country, though I imagine when the time's right. I think the thing I'll emphasize is we're incredibly lucky to live in this place. And you, as an American citizen, have all these extraordinary rights, and you should exercise them. Not just like the right to vote, but also to speak your mind freely and not be scared of repercussions for that. And just like, sort of, these are, like, fundamental virtues of being here that you should embrace and embody and not take for granted, I think, and hopefully expose him to experiences traveling and seeing other places where he can understand the ways America is falling short. And also the ways America is uniquely awesome, which I still believe it is. But that something I hope they get, I mean, I think from my dad, I definitely got you can speak your mind and nobody can tell you to shut up or they can tell you, but you don't have to listen. And I think the idea that it was valuable to care and be engaged and be civically minded. My parents both sort of imparted on me. Like, they paid attention and they cared and they voted and had opinions, and you don't have to shield your opinions, and it's okay. You can be honest about what you think. I think all those kinds of, you know, they're not unique to America, but they're uniquely American, too, which I think is cool and is, like, a really positive thing. I don't know. John, do you have thoughts about how you navigate that or how you might navigate it in the future?

[John Lowell]

I mean, sort of. I feel like one of those things that I've learned is they'll kind of come to you with questions. And I'm trying to make sure that I don't want to put too much on her or, like, you know, muddy the waters for her. Like, she may end up being completely different from me politically. I want to make sure that I am able to embrace that. Like, I wonder how many parents who are politically active or, like, fear that, like, oh, my gosh, my. You know, if you're a Republican, my kid's gonna be a Democrat. Like, that could be crazy. But I think that it's important for her to be able to, you know, take in everything and be able to come to me and for me to be able to openly talk to her about whatever it is that she's feeling. I think the thing I hope that she takes away is maybe what I did when I was a kid. I. Again, two immigrant parents who came to this country. It was very hard for them, but somehow they just. They just worked. They were just so determined to give me and my brother a fighting chance. And I want my daughter to understand that this is a place where that can happen, that you can make your chances happen. That's not the case everywhere. And America is a unique place to encounter diverse political thoughts. And it's a place where you can say how you feel. Even if people don't like it, you get to say it anyway. I want her to understand that. I want her to feel empowered by that. Just really briefly, one thing that I remember, I talked to a friend who was kind of talking a little bit about how she didn't. She thought America kind of sucked and whatever.

[Bailey Saul]

And

[John Lowell]

she went abroad for a little bit, came back a few months later, and we had had that same conversation again. She's just like, I just never realized how much I loved America until I was somewhere else. So all that to say, I kind of agree with Camille here on that idea. Like, love your country. It's a great one. You can be respectful of people and still disagree with them. And that's the beauty of this place.

[Bailey Saul]

And it doesn't mean it's perfect. It's never meant that. Yeah.

[John Lowell]

Nope.

[Bailey Saul]

It's always been a work in progress.

[John Lowell]

Yes. And she gets to contribute to it. Next, dad.

[Isaac Sowell]

I'm curious how thee would not just talk about it now, but, I mean, thy father was also extremely politically active and involved very much.

[Bailey Saul]

Yeah. Both my parents were ahead of the curve when it came to civil rights, Vietnam War protests. I was being a marshal at anti war protests by the time I was 13, 1968. I remember watching the American Nazi party come around the corner.

[Isaac Sowell]

And,

[Bailey Saul]

you know, this was one of those conflicting moments where you realize, yeah, they have a right to say something too. I don't have to to like it, but I'll defend to the death their right to say it. Then they started engaging the crowd. And they were in brown suits, jack boots, swastikas on the armbands, the whole nine hats and everything, company of about 40 of them. And they started engaging what we noticed were only the women in the crowds and trying to yank signs from people's hands. Well, then all the guys started stepping up to the front and the guys started getting very chippy with these Nazis. And we called the D.C. police, who were by then pretty good at this kind of thing. They'd been doing it since the very early 60s. This was 1968. And we said, you know, these peace loving hippies are about to jump the barricade and beat the snot out of all these American Nazis. You might want to show up 15th and G, you know, and about, I don't know, two minutes later, we started hearing a noise like angry hornets. And 50 DC cops come around the corner on their little Vespa scooters. They park them right in the middle of the street. Big blue Department of Corrections bus follows them in. And they each escort Nazis and give them the choice. You can stay here and converse with the crowd or we'll give you a free ride out. Of course, all the Nazis chose their free ride out, which my father loved and was very hasty to remind everybody of. But he was, you know, the joke among my older cousins. And almost all of them were older. Cause he had four older sisters. And the joke there was, if you want to sit down and have a politics discussion with Dick. Saul, you better pour yourself a tall one and pull up a comfy chair because you're going to be there a while. And that was my dad. I mean, he was. You know, he had no.

[Isaac Sowell]

It's funny because that's exactly how I would describe thee, but yeah. Yeah, I guess I inherited that as well. Yeah. Ari, we'll give you the last word here before we start to wrap, but any thoughts or feelings about how you might frame a country that you live in to an expectant son who you don't have yet?

[Ari Weitzman]

It's tough because probably the things that are on my mind now won't be relevant as much in four years or three years when the conversation's going to be ready to be heard and had. I think I'm going to have a household that's pretty rich with music and reading and speaking. And one of the things that I know my boy is going to be raised with is the works of the great American author Mark Twain. And I evoke this quote a lot, so I'm sure you guys are maybe used to hearing it for me, but Mark Twain said, loyalty to your country, always loyalty to your government when it deserves it. And the way that I interpret that is like, we are all here together. There's a concentric circle of morality. Like you have. You have the requirement to do what it takes to take care of yourself and then to help your family, help your community, your state, your country, humanity at large. And your country is an essential part of that. So when the country is doing something, you're going to be there to either help it course correct or support it. And if the government is doing something that you don't like, it is your right as an American and your privilege and your expectation responsibility to try to work towards changing it if you feel it's important. And that, again, probably not something I'm going to welcome a newborn into the world with looking them in the eyes and saying, like, a little bit of a load.

[Weight Loss by Hers Announcer]

Yeah.

[Ari Weitzman]

But like a thing that I'm cognizant of is I was raised as kind of a suburban kid. I didn't really feel a sense of being connected to a greater culture. Like, I didn't really have something that was, what is the way we do things? How do we do things as X group? And I think that's something that I'm excited about with being in Vermont. Like, I'm going to have a kid who's a Vermonter and I'm not one, which will Be weirdly alien at some point. But there are things that I think this is the way we do things here. We know the names of the trees and the animals around us. We go outside no matter the weather, and we have the right clothing for it. We don't complain about it. We help people, and we don't talk about it. We just do it. Like someone's on the side of the road, you get your winch out and you send them on the way. You need help, you ask for it, you get it, you're a little embarrassed, and then you move on. And, like, that's kind of a. That's kind of a culture that I'm excited about pressing forward into this boy and then seeing him, like, become a Vermonter in knowing that I'm not quite one as. As he becomes an American. I'm not sure. Like, I think. I think I'm. I'm one of two people on this call who wrote a piece for Tangle about loving America. So I expect that there's going to be a healthy amount of appreciation for the country in this household. But as he grows up, the country that we're a part of and the country that he's going to help shape are going to be different, and then we're going to be really open to what that looks like as it happens.

[Bailey Saul]

I would say that part of that is going to be shaped by what happens in the time that he's growing up. And point out that I felt very much at sea politically and sociologically, sort of from the time I was. Well, from the time Kennedy was shot and killed, because that was inconceivable to me. That was not even a possibility. And when I was first told, I wouldn't believe it was true until I saw people weeping and watching the TV and then understood that it was true and how effed up this was and that this was really goddamn serious. You know, the world had been reshaped somehow. And then when it continued to happen through the next three, four, and five years with his brother, Martin Luther King, you know, it's. There's only so much a parent can do to shape the view of a child who is subjected to. That is how I will put it.

[Ari Weitzman]

That was a really transformative era, really.

[Bailey Saul]

Yeah, there's nothing to prepare you for that. And, you know, saying how this country is. Can just change like that. So that's how it was, you know, before this moment in time.

[Ari Weitzman]

But country, world, animals.

[Bailey Saul]

And I think that's. That's also part of what's responsible for my energy about those kinds of things. Because it became clear very quickly that things could go off the rails a lot faster than we thought. And that was harrowing. Very harrowing.

[Isaac Sowell]

Gentlemen, I'm going to end this with a quick Happy Father's Day monologue to each of you. Camille, you're a role model for patience and thoughtfulness with children. I think the lesson of enjoying the phase you're in is a perfect encapsulation of your view. John. The ultimate open hearted, sensitive, kind.

[Camille Foster]

The.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yes, darling. Not something that I'm saying a lot of. What I'll tell you that. Me personally. What. What do you want? But you know, you're.

[Bailey Saul]

That's a good one to reflect on.

[Isaac Sowell]

It is. Yeah. You're the North Star. For that. I respect it. Ari. Expectant father. You're gonna be an awesome dad. Dude. You will be tremendously curious and open minded and thoughtful with your children or child, as it were. I'm super excited to see what you're like. Also very interested to see what sorts of things blow your mind. And dad.

[Bailey Saul]

How much you love this little thing.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah. Dad. Happy Father's Day.

[Bailey Saul]

Thank you very much.

[Isaac Sowell]

Thanks for coming on and to be. Yeah. And relevant to this show. Thanks for reading me the newspaper when I was a kid. Every morning. New York Times, Washington Post. Sometimes it was just the sports section. But still kind of inculcated a love of journalism and writing in me. And also always openly loving thy children. Nobody would ever accuse thee of being an ashamed, standoffish dad. Yeah. Yeah. Full of hugs and kisses and very long monologues about how incredible we are. Which I don't take for granted. I used to.

[Bailey Saul]

We got a lot of that too. So I have to give credit to. Props to my folks for both of us.

[Isaac Sowell]

That's good. It passes on. Yeah. I have to regularly separate my father from somebody who's, you know, like dad. They don't want to hear the story about my high school state championship ultimate Frisbee. But always, always repping. So all of that goodness and loveness is one big happy Father's Day to each of you. I'm glad we thought of the idea of doing this episode.

[Camille Foster]

Like glasses fogging up for some reason. Isaac. You asshole.

[John Lowell]

It's too.

[Isaac Sowell]

No emails about the Mother's Day episode. This was just a perfect alignment of stars. We made it happen. We will honor Mother's Day in future episodes and places. We've honored some moms too here. So I want that to. I. Swell. We should. Yeah. I know there's gonna be at least one email about why we did a Father's Day episode and not a Mother's Day episode. And I'm gonna get defensive about it.

[Camille Foster]

Well, they didn't listen to the episode, so you can.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, that's right. They didn't listen to the end.

[Bailey Saul]

That's critical. That's a critical point.

[John Lowell]

Make sure to send that email to will wl.com.

[Isaac Sowell]

yeah, that's a good place to follow all your complaints.

[Ari Weitzman]

Speaking of complaints.

[Isaac Sowell]

All right, now. Yeah, speaking of complaints. Now it's time for all of our favorite times of the week. Today we're gonna have to be quick. Cause there's five of us. We can't let this take a full 30 minutes. But, John, this is usually the part where I say, john, play the music. But instead you're here sitting with us on the show. So maybe, John, you could kick us off with your grievance for the week.

[John Lowell]

Yeah, sure. I'll be quick. My grievance is a little sad, but also just, you know, it is the thing that it's a true griev. I'm truly grieving. My dog of 13 years died this week. That was really, really sad. My grievance of that is dogs should live forever. All pets, all animals should live forever. It's not fair.

[Bailey Saul]

And at least as long as we do.

[John Lowell]

At least as long as we. Yeah, go with me. What's up? Like, just come. Like, we should go together.

[Ari Weitzman]

No, I think forever's right.

[Bailey Saul]

You know, there'd be a bunch of them to deal with. I don't know who's picking up all that forever poop, but, you know,

[Camille Foster]

they

[Ari Weitzman]

just get smaller and smaller and smaller.

[Camille Foster]

Plank length poop.

[Weight Loss by Hers Announcer]

Yes.

[Isaac Sowell]

All right, Ari, your grievance for the week.

[Ari Weitzman]

It'll be animal related as well and brief. Something that that kind of reminded me of was when I was finishing up writing the take this morning from the desk in the bedroom. I heard a thud on the window, and there is still a dead bird on the window. So I'm realizing. And I'm gonna have to go take care of that once we get off this call. Don't want that hanging around. Very sad watching an animal die always. So, yeah, this is taking a turn, huh? Somebody make this more fun.

[John Lowell]

Yeah, I guess I shouldn't have started with that.

[Isaac Sowell]

I'll lighten it up and get away from the dead animal show.

[Camille Foster]

Thanks, guys.

[Isaac Sowell]

Really fun, lighthearted way to wrap the show. My grievance is related to homeownership, which is one of my buckets. I frequently fall into This I could not believe. This week, a letter came in the mail telling me that I had a sewer fee to pay. The local township sending me a letter telling me that there is a fee that I must pay on the order of about $275 for sewer maintenance. Sewer fee of some kind of. To which my immediate response was, what are you doing with all of my tax dollars? I would like to know why I'm paying you taxes that go to local, state, municipal things. And then on top of that, I'm getting a bill for the sewer. And at first, I'm not kidding, I literally thought this was a scam. And then today, the woman who runs the shared office space that I'm in, I said, I caught her at the coffee machine. And I was like, hey, do you live in Maplewood? Oh, no, sorry, we gotta cut that. I said, hey, do you live in Blank? And she said, I'll let you figure that out, John. And she said, yeah, I do. And I said, have you ever gotten a sewer fee in the mail? And she said, oh, yeah, they used to be $40 a year, and now it's like 300 bucks. And I'm like, oh, my God. God. So my grievance is that I pay thousands and thousands of dollars a year in taxes, and then I get a bill for the sewer on top of that, which seems totally obscene and over the top to me and could turn me into a dumb libertarian like Camille. So go ahead, Camille. You're next, man.

[Camille Foster]

Well, you know what? Mine is real estate related as well, and that I am shopping for a home in a seller's market. And my beef this week is with, highest and best, this practice of having weekends worth of open houses. And at the end of that weekend's worth, weekend's worth of open houses, declaring that everyone who wants your home must submit their highest and best offer. And, yeah, I hate it. I don't like it. And if I was selling a home, I'd probably be happy. But I'm selfish and I don't like this. And I don't want to pay several hundred thousand or fifty or even twenty dollars more than anyone else is willing to pay for your home. I want to pay just enough. So I'm suffering through that right now, and I don't like it.

[Ari Weitzman]

Sorry about capitalism, dude.

[Isaac Sowell]

We may be. We may be close.

[Camille Foster]

We may be close. We may be close. But we'll see, because I can't. I don't know how to do this. Yeah, I don't know.

[Isaac Sowell]

All right, Father Bailey, the man who taught me to complain, who brought grievances to me so naturally and organically. I have no idea what he's gonna say.

[Bailey Saul]

But oh, mine is simple and small. It's these unexpected and unwanted charges on one's credit card that one is then told are simply impossible to reverse. Well, now wait, Mf, you the bitch that put that charge on me, I'll bet you can take it off. I said this to somebody today. I said this to two people day before yesterday out of three and I said, is someone holding a gun to your head? Because otherwise, I'll bet you can do this. And I, you know, I don't pay Walmart to shop at Walmart. The profit is built into the products. I don't pay Sam's Club to shop at Sam's. I'm philosophically, adamantly opposed to, to the idea of paying you money for the privilege of going into your store and paying you more money.

[Camille Foster]

Let's go.

[Bailey Saul]

Yeah, the profit you charge ain't enough. You're in the wrong business. So I was bitching over a $13.73 charge. Little did I know they had done this for 3 months already. So I got my $13 back and 73 cents for each of the 3 months and got a $40 plus refund instead of just 13.73. Ultimately happy ending. But the gripe is that I have to go through this and I have people telling me on the phone, literally telling me these are impossible to reverse. I almost laughed out loud. And then I just kept coming up with smart ass things to say about it, which was great fun actually. So yeah,

[Isaac Sowell]

I got a 1500 text message, word text message about how my dad owned the Walmart customer service person told him that this charge was, was impossible to reverse and he declared, impossible my ass. Well, we're getting this money back. Which he did successfully. Yeah, good grievance.

[Bailey Saul]

Don't say that to a Taurus, please.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that Walmart did that kind of thing, but we've had some sneak charges pop up on the Tango credit card too, where somebody uses the card for something and then all of a sudden we've like signed up for some membership, which is just an obscene.

[Bailey Saul]

Yeah, in this case it was Walmart plus, which I do not recall signing up for and never wanted to sign up.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah, all right, well, a great grievance, a great way to end the show. Father. Dad, thanks for joining. I don't know why I keep saying father. I never called him, he's never called me.

[Bailey Saul]

That in my life. So except when we were joking about something.

[Isaac Sowell]

Yeah Camille John Happy Father's Day. Ari Happy impending fatherhood. Appreciate all you guys hopping on the show and we'll see you guys next week for some real politics next week. But hopefully you enjoyed this episode. If you have nice things to say, you can write to me. Isaac isaactangle.com all your complaints to Will W I l [e-mail] and we'll see you guys again soon. Peace.

[Bailey Saul]

Peace.

[Weight Loss by Hers Announcer]

Later.

[Isaac Sowell]

Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Sowell and our Executive Producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor we will K back and Associate Editors Audrey Moorhead, Lindsey Knuth and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our [e-mail]. Big news Boost Mobile is now sending experts nationwide to deliver and set up customers new phones at home or work.

[Bailey Saul]

Wait, we're going on tour?

[Isaac Sowell]

Not a tour. We're delivering and setting up customers phones so it's easier to upgrade.

[John Lowell]

Let's get in the tour bus and hit the road.

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No, not a tour bus. It's a regular car we use to deliver and set up customers phones at home or work. Are you a groupie on this tour? We deliver and set up phones. It's not a tour.

[Ari Weitzman]

Oh you're definitely a groupie.

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