Podcast Summary: Tangle – "Suspension of the Rules"

Host: Isaac Saul
Co-hosts: Ari Weitzman, Camille Foster
Interview Guest: Elliot Williams
Date: January 30, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of Tangle features a wide-ranging, candid discussion on law enforcement interactions, the latest developments in ICE operations under the Trump administration, and the public and political response to Kanye West’s apology. The episode concludes with an engaging interview with Elliot Williams about his new book, Five Bullets, which delves into the infamous Bernard Goetz shooting in 1984 New York. The mood is personal and lively, blending news analysis with first-hand stories and spirited debate.

Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. Recent Law Enforcement & ICE Developments

Timestamps: 03:10 – 14:00

• Backdrop: Isaac is in a “sour mood” due to a theft in his office, a personal example setting a tone for a conversation on crime and law enforcement.
• ICE Policy Shift:
  • The Trump administration is purportedly drawing down ICE operations in Minneapolis and Maine, focusing enforcement only on those with criminal records.
  • Isaac: "Something has shifted, clearly, I think positive direction … ICE in Minneapolis is now gonna no longer engage, quote, unquote, agitators. … Other ICE agents will not be targeting people without criminal records anymore." (06:00)
  • Ari: Expresses skepticism but notes it's rare for Trump to bluff about de-escalation. (07:45)
  • Camille: Frames the shift as a genuine pivot responding to pressure from both parties, especially Democrats leveraging negotiation power: "This is a very real pivot for the administration." (09:42)

Memorable Moment:
Isaac: "It's so crazy that they've been operating for the last year under different, you know, use of force laws than a typical police officer might when they're trying to do police work in the community. … How is this not how it is already?" (12:28)

2. How to Talk to Kids About Law Enforcement

Timestamps: 15:55 – 44:45

• Prompt: Ari asks how each host would advise their children to handle encounters with police or ICE.
• Camille’s Approach:
  • Emphasizes situational awareness, calmness, respect, and documenting encounters—advoctes not escalating, even if provoked.
  • Camille: "To imagine that your car can be the courtroom is probably to your disadvantage." (18:39)
• Personal Experiences Shared:
  • Camille: Getting pulled over in Manhattan and refusing to get out of the car, and a near-miss with guns drawn during a misunderstanding as a teen.
  • Ari: Disputes with Chicago Police, including being mistaken as a vagrant and the challenges of knowing and exercising one’s rights without escalating.
  • Isaac: Run-in with undercover NYPD after jumping a subway turnstile, and being singled out by Border Patrol at a checkpoint for having a "stoned-looking" friend.
• Best Practices:
  • Keep your hands visible.
  • Don’t make sudden movements.
  • Comply to instructions, but understand and respectfully assert your rights when appropriate.
  • Record interactions if you feel unsafe.

Notable Quote:
Isaac: "You're never gonna win in the courtroom of this car, which I think is a really good attitude." (31:35)

3. Kanye West’s Apology & Accountability in Mental Health

Timestamps: 46:07 – 59:19

• Context: Kanye West published an apology to the Jewish community in The Wall Street Journal, attributing his past antisemitic remarks to a manic episode tied to bipolar disorder.
• Isaac: Advocates forgiveness, seeing Kanye’s outreach as sincere and meaningful.
• Camille: Pushes back, raises question about public and celebrity accountability when severe mental health issues are at play:
  • "There's something strange about us recognizing that someone is neurodivergent or is severely ill ... and then kind of having this expectation that there will be kind of a moment where they realize that all the bad things … were happening." (51:00)
• Ari: Highlights the importance and value of apology, quoting Phoebe Bridgers: “Forgiveness is overrated. Apology is underrated.” (54:43)

Notable Exchange:
Isaac: "We like, expect them to be subservient to us in some weird way that I don't totally understand." (56:55)
Camille: "I'm kind of heartbroken for him as a guy and I suppose for myself as a fan on some level. But I hope I would extend the same grace to just about anyone who was in crisis and kind of suffering as a result of it." (58:13)

4. Airing of Grievances – Speed Round

Timestamps: 59:19 – 62:39

• Isaac: Annoyed and inconvenienced by the theft in his studio, but recounts a positive encounter with a considerate Border Patrol agent who let him through quickly because of his sleeping baby.
• Ari: Frustrated after receiving a speeding ticket in New York for a violation he didn’t commit and now stuck in bureaucratic negotiations.
• Camille: Annoyed by technical difficulties prompted by stolen gear but feels overshadowed by Isaac’s incident, lamenting not being able to complain more.

Humor Highlight:
Camille (to Ari): "You're complaining that you can't complain more." (62:38)

5. Interview with Elliot Williams – “Five Bullets”

Timestamps: 64:27 – 96:37

• Topic: Williams’ book unpacks the Bernard Goetz subway shooting, which became a cultural and legal touchstone about urban crime, self-defense, race, and vigilantism.
• Story Recap: On December 22, 1984, Goetz shot four unarmed Black teenagers in a subway car, claiming self-defense during an attempted mugging. The incident divided New York and the nation, raising questions about race, safety, gun laws, and the role of media.
• Key Parallels Discussed:
  • Similarities/differences between Goetz and more recent cases like Daniel Penny.
  • The legal precedent set by State vs. Goetz on what constitutes “reasonable” self-defense.
  • The unsafe, lawless image of 1980s NYC contrasted with today.
  • Broad national sympathy for Goetz, with 23 of 25 San Diego callers supporting the shooter before his identity was known.
• Racial Framing:
  • Williams—interviewed as a Black journalist—reflects on navigating personal identity while writing with objectivity:
    • “I stayed as objective as I could while injecting myself and my experiences … where appropriate.” (74:14)
  • Invites readers to ask: If the races were reversed, would society view the case the same?
• Behind the Scenes:
  • Williams attempted (unsuccessfully) to secure on-record interviews with victims’ families and Rupert Murdoch.
  • Bernard Goetz continues to send the author emails commenting on the book.

Standout Quotes:
Elliot Williams:

• "The case was kind of a Rorschach test at the time. Was this sort of racist vigilante violence or just self-defense? And people have been debating that about this case since." (66:09)
• "The more the public learned about Bernard Goetz, the man, the more skeptical they got about him." (89:22)
• On Goetz’s reaction to the book: "He said it's surprisingly not bad … better than a lot of the BS that's out there. And I don't know how to feel about that." (94:04)

Most Memorable Quotes

• "To imagine that your car can be the courtroom is probably to your disadvantage." — Camille Foster, on law enforcement stops (18:39)
• "It's so crazy that they've been operating for the last year under different, you know, use of force laws than a typical police officer might when they're trying to do police work in the community … How is this not how it is already?" — Isaac Saul (12:28)
• "Forgiveness is overrated. Apology is underrated." — Ari Weitzman (quoting Phoebe Bridgers) (54:43)
• "[Goetz case law] set the standard in New York law for what constitutes acceptable self-defense or acceptable or reasonable … in the face of a threat." — Elliot Williams (69:41)
• "The more the public learned about Bernard Goetz the man, the more skeptical they got about him." — Elliot Williams (89:22)

Additional Noteworthy Moments

• Genuine laughter and banter over minor infractions, negative policing experiences, and the challenge of being civil with authority when unjustly treated.
• Personal reflections on the difficulty of applying best practices when strong emotions and principles conflict with compliance.
• The surprise at how many influential political and cultural figures intersected with the Goetz case.
• Subtle critique of U.S. media and political reaction in high-profile crime cases, both past and present.

Concluding Thoughts

This episode of Tangle offers thoughtful, relatable perspectives on policing, personal freedom, and the complications of public accountability, all delivered in an open, vivid, and approachable style. The conversation acts as a bridge between lived experience and policy, blending the hosts’ political insights with humor and humility. The interview with Elliot Williams is a strong finish—informative for those interested in legal history, urban life, and the enduring debates over justice and race in America.