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- [00:00]
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- [00:29]
Ari Weitzman
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- [01:33]
Isaac Saul
Coming up, we are discussing the murder or assassination or whatever you want to call it of Charlie Kirk. It's pretty much all we get into today. I saw on our the Tangle Reddit recently somebody said I wonder if Isaac will ever say coming up, this is a bad episode of the podcast because I always say it's a good one. Today might be that this might be. I don't know, you might want to.
- [02:00]
Camille
It's a good one.
- [02:01]
Isaac Saul
I'm just kidding. It's a good one. It's a good one. It's just really depressing. All right, here it is.
- [02:08]
Ad Voice
From executive producer Isaac Saul.
- [02:12]
Isaac Saul
This is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Suspension of the Rules podcast. I don't have a fake drawn up introduction for today's show to test Camille and Ari, you know, do a little focus group on something I've written. It is a weird and uncomfortable and sad and kind of just difficult day. I think I don't really know. Yeah. I don't even know how to start the conversation we're having. I think the three of us have all been talking a good deal behind the scenes in the last 24 hours. We're recording this on Thursday afternoon. It's about one o' clock in the afternoon Eastern Time on September 11th, which, wild. Today's 911 anniversary, that's kind of just faded to the background. And, yeah, basically all anybody's talking about, I think rightfully so, is that Charlie Kirk's been killed. I have, you know, not really felt this shaken up by somebody dying whom I didn't know personally, I think, ever, maybe in a really long time, for sure. I think it's the most surreal death I've felt since Kobe Bryant died, probably where it was just like, I just couldn't believe that what I was hearing or seeing was actually real. And, you know, I think I guess I'll start by saying I feel in my most pessimistic heart of hearts that we've crossed some invisible line and that this is going to change the world in ways that we don't really know yet, and probably not for the better, which, I mean, it's just honestly how I'm feeling. I just. I. The rage on the right, the. I think, you know, corners of the left, small corners for sure, but corners of the left where, like, there's this tone of justification, if not outright celebration, this feeling that, like, this is now just gonna keep happening. This is just gonna be the world we're living in. I just. Something, to me, the ground seems to have shifted, and maybe that's for personal reasons about, you know, Charlie's age and the fact he has kids and that I see some of my own life a little bit in his world. But I don't know. How are you guys processing this? I mean, I'm curious to hear what you guys are thinking and feeling.
- [04:50]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah. This has been unusually challenging in ways that are very surprising to me. I'm not sure that I haven't been in a room with Charlie at some point in the past. Like, we've both lurked around in the halls of News Corp and various other media buildings at the same time. I'm sure we've probably been at a conference or two in the past together, but I didn't know him personally. I do happen to know a lot of people who know him personally, and over the course of the past 12, 18 hours, I've had some text and email exchanges with a number of them and found myself sufficiently distraught last night again. In a way that really surprises me that I just wanted to be around some other people and went to go see some folks. I'm here in New York now, actually close to downtown on 9 11. And yeah, I think part of what is so difficult about all of this is Charlie was young. He had these two young kids. I've got two young kids. Charlie does. I do professionally, which is have an opinion about things and share it with people and try to talk to them about public policy and their values. And I think what Charlie did and you really did, I think a great job of kind of framing this Isaac, in your post today was he was in the business of trying to persuade people. And it goes without saying that if you are in a public place and you're sharing your opinion about something, this shouldn't be a capital offense. No one should be under the impression that this is. It's justifiable to murder someone for expressing their opinion, for advocating for things in the context of politics. And something that kind of occurred to me and I think is part of the consternation that I'm feeling is I've been using the phrase political violence for a while now. I've been kind of banging the drum about how concerned I am about the specter of it and our politics and our Nepality anyways. And I realized last night that there really is just this. There's an important sense in which the phrase is somewhat incoherent. Politics is about how we figure out how to live together and navigate our differences. Politics is about ensuring that we do not have violence while we're trying to figure out how to adjudicate what we will do together as a society and how we'll live together. And political violence, as a phrase, suggests that there might perhaps be some universe in which the two things can coexist. But once you've resorted to violence, you've abandoned the political process all altogether. And it can be politically motivated violence, I suppose we could say that, or ideologically motivated violence. But it feels really important for us to not merely understand that politics is a necessity, that we have to have this, but to understand exactly the purpose that it's supposed to serve. And the purpose it's supposed to serve is helping us navigate our challenges, our several differences, and work together towards particular ends and in a way that allows us to pursue our own individual ends and the ends of our particular community and families and affiliations of concern. And there's something wrong. It's been wrong for some time. And I think this particular attack assassination has really, just. It's amplified my concern in a way that's surprising, but also, like just kind of navigating it and talking about it with people is also giving me some reasons for optimism, which I'd like to talk about a little bit more as we go on. But I have to say in advance that I worry that I will only be so clear today. And even after a difficult day of trying to navigate these issues yesterday and waking up this morning feeling like I had a better handle on things, I'm probably a little bit more fractured in terms of my thinking today about what makes the most sense and how to navigate all of this, how to think through the various dimensions of what's happening here, politically and socially and otherwise. So I'm hoping that our exchange can be somewhat cathartic for us and for me in particular, but hopefully also for the audience.
- [09:22]
Camille
Yeah, I mean, I want to. I'm a little torn right now on whether to continue responding to the comments that you made there, Camille, because there's a lot that I want to talk about about, like, political violence and the incoherence of the phrase and whether or things are getting worse or better. And then Charlie Kirk himself and whether or not, like, the different ways in which we can sort of empathize or not empathize with him, depending on who we are and what our experiences are. There's a lot of. A lot for us to talk about with this, for sure. And I feel you're. I also feel the same thing about wanting to come through this conversation with a little bit more clarity for myself, and maybe that's something that we'll. We'll all share and people who are listening will get some, too. But I do think I should start by just answering Isaac's question, just like what our personal reactions are, just so we can all have it. Isaac wrote his today. I think we saw the edition or listened to it on the podcast. For me, I'm struck by the fact that I again, and I'll say once again, I'm at a wedding for something like this happening. I'm in Plymouth, Massachusetts, for a friend's wedding. And the last time that I felt something similar was in. I don't even remember the year anymore. It was October 2018, I think, for the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting was at a friend's wedding for that, too. And I remember waking up in the morning and getting ready and one of my friends telling me about the news and saying that she just read a report and she said, this is in Squirrel Hill in Pittsburgh. Ari, do you have any family who might be there? And I said, maybe. And then learning that I did, and then having to go through the rest of the wedding thinking about that, and then having that date forever, their anniversary, be a date that's shared with that tragedy. And now having this date or the date yesterday, September 10, will always be something that is shared. And my friends are getting married on 11 September, which, as Isaac alluded to, is something that marks obviously a shared national tragedy. There was the issue that we covered yesterday, irina Zurowska's murder, August 22, which is my anniversary. And feeling all of these things that are supposed to be tied up with joyous celebrations all marred in some way, just like really personally feels just hurts just to think about, like, we're all married right now, and right now there's a pessimistic statement, but all three of us are married, and I think we appreciate that. Even just the desire to have a long, committed, happy relationship with somebody is a struggle sometimes, not always. But on some days, you have to try to work to do it. Because I think finding peace takes work. And it's so weak and easy to pick violent fights. And it fills me with this feeling of upset. And I can. I know how easy it is to feed it, that when you have this feeling of injustice or wrongness that you want to then take up arms yourself. And it's just. I have such contempt for people who feed that emotion when there is so much else that's already hard. It's already so hard to even just have conversations with people you love. And it is hard to have conversations with people you don't like and distrust and even sometimes are animated by feelings bordering on hate with. And I think there were things that Charlie Kirk said and did that I didn't agree with, that I would have disagreed with pretty strongly. But he was always saying things, saying, saying, saying, saying. He was never taking up arms. And the doing of that is what stirs me the most. Just the contrast between being willing to try to do something hard and maybe Charlie Kirk wasn't sowing the seeds of peace as much, but I do think at times he was. And I think sowing the seeds of discord is so easy. Like these are weeds that are always going to bloom. But to actually try to do the work of creating peace is really difficult. And I think it's more difficult now than it's been. And it feels pretty. I feel pretty, I don't know, soured by it currently. Everything feels shrouded. The last couple of days Just thinking about it, and I don't think I'm quite ready to think about what comes next either.
- [14:06]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, I. I feel like something that I'm realizing is almost like it's actually impossible to include Charlie in the conversation. I think I tried to do that today in our take and talk about how I viewed his project, what he was doing. And then the quibbles and the obsessions and the comments are just all about people believing that I mischaracterized his work. And. And it's hard because, like, there is, you know, I said this. I mean, I said this in the piece. But at his worst, like, Charlie really is somebody who loves and revels turning the temperature up. And so I think there were a lot of people who got pissed about the way I wrote what I wrote today because they feel like I'm mischaracterizing him. I think that those people misread him because I really do think his fundamental goal always was persuasion. And I think, like, he often felt like turning the temperature up or being, you know, sensationalist or, you know, saying really provocative things, being offensive was a good way to get people's attention and make them pay attention to the stuff that he was saying. But I was just looking at, like, the comments on the website of my take, and it's like, you know, the point is less about how I might characterize his work or what he did and more about the fact that he was killed for speech. I mean, probably we still don't know the motivations for sure, but, like, again, as I said, I'm working on a presumption that I think is going to end up being right. But he. I mean, he certainly wasn't killed because he did something, you know, criminal. He. He. He got the death penalty for having views that some people find a warrant is what I think happened. And to me, that's all that really matters, regardless of how people feel about his perspectives or his YouTube videos or how he went about things. And, you know, it is true that tangle and the work that I'm doing is trying to fight and. And, like, battle the partisans. And Charlie's obviously a partisan, but, like, I appreciated the fact that he was somebody I could criticize. That didn't mean that I hated him or, you know, wish something like this upon him. Of course not. And that there's so many people who do, I find deeply alarming, though it's been nice to see, you know, every living president's made a statement against political violence today. I mean, I haven't seen Any elected Democrats or really influential Democratic leaders or liberals say anything that I was, like, shocked or disgusted by. Most of it's coming from, like, these anonymous troll accounts and stuff, which is good. I mean, that's really good. But, yeah, I almost, like, it's. Yeah, it's hard. I'm almost like, you're handcuffed to talk about who Charlie was and how he conducted himself in the arena. When it's like, I'm then getting in the weeds on that debate. I'm like, this isn't at all what's fucking important. Like, what's important is that somebody killed him. Because I can't even believe we're. I can't even believe we're talking about, like, I can't even believe that I'm using his name in the past tense that we're talking about this. Like, I'm not even. Like, I cannot even process the fact that we're having this fucking conversation right now. That's actually what I'm feeling is like, Charlie Kirk is dead. Like, what are we even talking about? Like, wake. I don't give a shit if, like, he was, you know, evil, quote, unquote, as all these people and, like, that he was, like, a racist or whatever you want to say about him. Like, he's fucking dead. Like, I can't even believe those words are coming out of my mouth. I'm sorry for the profanity, but, like, what are we talking about? You know, like. And then I'm just so frustrated that I'm in the weeds on that conversation. And, you know, people are upset that I described him as a parent, as if I was, like, implying that his parenthood makes him more valuable. That's not my point. My point is that, like, he's a person and he would want to be remembered as a father. And he would probably want people to be praying for and thinking about his family right now. And I'm considering that by pointing the fact out. If he were single and, like, a pianist who loved going to the opera, I would have mentioned that were written about that in the piece to emphasize his humanity. I think the thing that he would have wanted to be emphasized in terms of his humanness was the fact that he was a dad and a husband, and those are the things he cares about. Like, why? Like, when I see that, I'm like, what are we taught? What are we arguing about? There's no, I'm not trying. That's not the point of any of this. It's that, like, somebody's dead now and like, we have to do something about it. Like, the collective. We have to do something about it. And the thing we have to do is not quibble about to what degree his partisanship was making the problem better or worse. It's that you literally are responsible for stopping the spread of the acceptance of this kind of violence. And right now, it doesn't feel like there's enough people interested in that. There's way too many people on the right who are like, this is civil war. And I've been fully radicalized. I'm seeing a lot of that, too, which is just as alarming as the people on the left celebrating his death. And it's like, yeah, man, it's a really tough environment to be operating in right now. Yeah.
- [20:20]
Camille
Does it feel a little bit like, what about ism to you? I don't know. I think there's. I don't want to do the whole thing that you just said you're disinterested in doing, like, getting into the weeds on it, but there. So let me know if this is what I'm doing here. But when we get a response to what we're writing of, like, okay, but what was the response to Melissa Hortman's attack? And sure, but the people on the right said this, and the people on the left are saying that, and then we're responding to the things that Charlie Kirk said versus what somebody else said before they were killed. I sort of had this thought about what. Whataboutism. Like, when it. When it's actually a logical fallacy and when it isn't. And I think, like, when we are bringing up something to try to deepen the point, it feels like it's worthy to discuss. But when it feels like something that's changing the subject, that's when it doesn't. And I'm just wondering if there's any element to this that feels like, okay, that's worthy of us discussing versus us changing the subject. Because I do think some of it, like, almost all of it, feels like we're changing the topic. Like, it doesn't. It's not gonna be productive for us to revisit what we said about Hortman's murder and whether or not we were appropriately sad. You know, like, that's a little ridiculous, but I think there are some elements to this that feel like maybe it's deepening the discussion. I don't know if there's anything there. There. Curious to hear your thoughts.
- [22:04]
Isaac Saul
We'll be right back after this. Quick break. Cooler temps are rolling in and as always, Quince is where I'm turning for fall staples that actually last. From cashmere to denim to boots, the quality holds up and the price still blows me away. Quince is all the kinds of fall staples you'll wear non stop, like Mongolian cashmere sweaters that start at just $60. Their denim is durable and fits right. They're real leather jackets which I'm not nearly cool enough to wear. They bring that clean, classic edge without the elevated price tag. This past summer I became a huge linen guy thanks to Quince. I bought up all their best linen shirts and now the fall's here so I'm getting pants, sweaters, longer tees, all the good stuff that I need. Keep it classic and cool this fall with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.comtangle for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Which I've used before. That's Quince Q U I n c e.com Tangle Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Tangle this episode of Tangle is brought to you by Wildgrain. Wild Grain is the first baked from frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, seasonal pastries and fresh pastas. Plus all items conveniently bake in 25 minutes or less. Before we decided to run this ad in Tangle, I told Wildgreen that I wanted to try the product, so they sent me a box and I have to say I was pretty much blown away. They have everything from apple cider donuts and pumpkin cinnamon biscuits to perfectly fresh sourdough bread. This fall, treat yourself and your loved ones to warm sourdough breads and seasonal baked goods from Wild Grain. Rumor has it, which I just confirmed, they have apple cider donuts and pumpkin cinnamon biscuits and you can get them before these items sell out. For a limited time, Wild Grain is offering our listeners $30 off the first box plus free croissants in every box when you go to wildgrain.comtangle to start your subscription. You heard me. Free croissants in every box and $30 off your box when you go to wildgrain.com forward/tangle. That's wildgrain.comtangle or you can use the promo code Tangle at checkout. Don't miss their seasonal products.
- [24:20]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah, it's funny. I'm going to try to approach this in a in a roundabout way and come back to exactly what you were just talking about.
- [24:29]
Camille
I'm glad we're being normal then.
- [24:31]
Ari Weitzman
I may get this. I may get this all wrong. But it's interesting, you know, we'd had this. The podcast has a name now, a Suspension of the Rules. We've gone over this. We are perhaps some of you are familiar with my criticism or at least dissatisfaction with the name. That said, today it feels weirdly appropriate. What we often do on the podcast is have conversations about the various topics of the day, but also the kind of editorial decision making process that is taking place behind the scenes at Tangle. The way that we go about trying to arrive at a carefully reasoned and constructed presentation of facts. The way that we will often agonize about figuring out how to articulate our own points of view on really difficult, kind of touchy matters on a regular basis. And here the fact that we try to have really honest, unguarded conversations about a lot of these same things, and sometimes it can intersect with things in our personal lives that we're dealing with in a very, very real sense, but it is always mediated through the lens of our own experience of the world. And I think that there's this question of like, what is appropriate right now? And at least in the context of this particular podcast, and I think today and every day the question is probably about earnestness and a kind of a willingness to engage with ideas generally. And it feels like there's probably nothing that ought to be off limits to at least raise, to at least speak aloud and to perhaps be able to kind of pull back the stick on and even retract after it's said. And there's a sense in which all of what I just described is what is conspicuously absent from our politics in many instances. There's the kind of willingness to interpret people in the worst imaginable way which we see people do on all sides of the aisle, which perhaps we are sometimes guilty of ourselves in our less than best moments and perhaps the most high profile people in our politics do on a regular basis in one way or another. The absence of kind of grace, the unwillingness to step back and to view someone else who you disagree with severely as fully human and worthy of your respect, even if they do things that you find somewhat difficult to understand, to empathize with or respect. And it can be really difficult. And I think we're trying to kind of pick our way to it. So it does seem totally appropriate. And sometimes we're going to have differences of perspective on when this ought to happen, to both memorialize Charlie, to see him as a human and as a father and these other things, and to have careful conversations about his legacy, his Contributions to the policy and to the polity broadly. And the just kind of nature of public discourse, like how we apportion blame and perhaps to draw contrasts to other things that have happened. And some people won't be prepared to do that today. Other people will be. And there's just. There's a meaningful difference there. I can. I can remember burying my father and like, driving to. To the church for the funeral. And I'm. I'm doing the driving. I've got various members of my family in the car with me. And like that first moment where someone like, cracks a joke or shares something like, other than the kind of morbid awfulness of the moment.
- [28:18]
Isaac Saul
Is.
- [28:19]
Ari Weitzman
It's difficult, it's weird, it's a little awkward, but it's important. Like, it's really, really important. And getting there, I think perhaps as quickly as you can, is also quite important. And doesn't do anything to kind of denigrate the importance of the person or the severity of the awful thing that happened. I think what it does is it underscores the fact that we have to navigate these difficult circumstances while navigating a. A bunch of other stuff. I mean, we're talking about Charlie today on the anniversary of 9 11, as the United States is approaching, we're dealing with two rather dramatic, not two, three, and perhaps more, depending on how you define it. The situation in Venezuela, the Israeli Palestinian conflict, the situation between Ukraine and Russia. And those things don't stop. And we're still having serious arguments about a number of things. Like the. I guess a week ago we were having conversations about some sort of gun restrictions being imposed on trans people. And that might become a more prominent part of our conversation. These discussions don't take a break because something tragic happened. We can take a beat to think about that tragedy and to think about it carefully. But I think what I'd also like to see us do is perhaps take a beat and step back from politics for a little bit. And whether that's in the context of us who work in a publication that is particularly interested in politics, or just the people who are listening now who care about politics enough to be tangled subscribers to digest a podcast like this on a regular basis, but who know, or at least ought to know, that the most important thing in our lives is not our political affiliations, our particular political commitments, the most important things in our lives are any number of things beyond that. And at moments, politics can intersect with the most important things of our lives. But it's supposed to be a mechanism for permitting us to live our lives in the most fulfilling ways. And I worry that a lot of the problem these days is that people are perhaps trying to find their fulfillment in their politics and imagining that everything has to be mediated through their politics as opposed to the other way around.
- [30:39]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, I think it's beautifully said. I wonder about how feasible it is now because people are. The politics are so deeply tied to people's identities, which is, of course, such a core part of all of this is, you know, every. Most people see Charlie Kirk first as a conservative MAGA guy before they see him as, like, a father or son or Christian or, you know, whatever else he's into. And many Americans now identify themselves primarily by their political worldviews and the political groups that they operate in. And it's like, such a core part of the identity that, yeah, I feel like. I wish I thought more people were capable of sort of separating the politics to see it. And I'm skeptical about the possibility that they are right now. I mean, there's also this effect that I'm really conscious of, which is like. I mean, literally every single person that I've spoken to in real life that I know is basically just, like, mortified right now, including, like, friends of mine who are super lefty, like, commie loving libs. I love you guys, but, you know. You know, even then, like, the most radical who, like, hate half the shit I write and are always giving me a hard time about my political positions being too moderate and stuff. Like, they're, like, checking in on me, asking if I'm okay. Like, dude, this is really scary. I can't believe this happened. You know, interestingly enough, this piece came out after we published today in Jacobin. I don't know if you guys saw this. I'm assuming not. I think it came out Jacobin. Sorry, after.
- [32:52]
Camille
Yeah, showing how you're not a true leftist again.
- [32:55]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, exactly. I'm not a Jacobin, that's for sure. Phoebe always gives me a hard time because I mispronounce so many commonly used words, because I just, like, I read so much that I teach myself what things sound like in my brain without hearing them.
- [33:15]
Ari Weitzman
Did you hear that humble brag there?
- [33:16]
Isaac Saul
Yeah. Yeah, because I'm like a walking encyclopedia, not a podcast.
- [33:21]
Ari Weitzman
That's right.
- [33:23]
Isaac Saul
Yeah.
- [33:23]
Ari Weitzman
These ain't audio books, baby.
- [33:25]
Isaac Saul
But I make a surprisingly few number of those mistakes on the podcast. I think at least I get correction sometimes from people.
- [33:31]
Camille
But, yeah, you still haven't corrected Andrew Callahan. He likes saying Callaghan, but we'll move on. We'll Move on.
- [33:35]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, that's a good one though. Anyway, they published a piece, two authors there. Oh it was Ben Burgess, whose stuff I follow a lot, and Megan Day, whose writing I don't know as well. But I just want to read an excerpt of it because I think this is actually surprising to me because a lot of the stuff I read on Jacobin is complete trash. Hate to say it, but this I thought was really beautifully written. And there's a whole few introduction paragraphs about how this is like a terrifying moment that if we descend into tit for tat political violence it's going to be terrible for the left movement and for the country as a whole. But then they wrote this, which again coming from a super left wing perspective and I think is a really strong example of writing critically about somebody while also making the right respectful points. They said Kirk ran a well funded political propaganda machine that promoted a simple message. Liberals, radicals and socialists he rarely bothered to make fine distinctions were ruining the country. Colleges were insidious left wing indoctrination factories. America was being overwhelmed by violent immigrants. Women should devote themselves to the domestic sphere. America was a Christian nation and should stay that way. And Donald Trump was a force for good. Four years ago, one of us, Ben, did a debate with Kirk on democratic socialism versus conservative populism. His politics have trended in an even worse direction over the years, flirting with much uglier forms of nationalism and xenophobia. But even in 2021, the substance of Kirk's side of the conversation was indefensible. While claiming the mantle of populism, he defended a series of positions that would have been at home on the Wall Street Journal editorial page. He was steadfastly opposed to even baby steps toward a more equal society like universal health care and building a strong labor movement. At the same time, he didn't descend into personal attacks. He stuck to the substance of the arguments, largely steering clear of cheap gotchas and giving Ben the space to hammer home the contradiction between Kirk's populist rhetoric and the ugly inegalitarian substance of his politics. In a country where substantial numbers of our fellow citizens unfortunately agree with Kirk's perspective, discussions like that are absolutely necessary. The shooting yesterday points the way toward a much uglier path and and one that won't and can't end anywhere we should want to go. And then the piece goes on to sort of describe how there's a promise in lefty politics that ordinary people are capable of self governance and that that's only something we can, we can like hold true to if people are actually exposed to various viewpoints and understand the different arguments that are out there. And like Charlie was one of the people who's making sure that that happened. Like, I don't agree with everything I just read. I'm just reading that piece because it's like these are people who can take really strong principled lefty stances against what they think Kirk stood for. They can describe him in like extremely critical terms. And they can also say like, he operated in the space in good faith. And like I, one of those authors like saying, I debated this guy and he didn't attack me personally, he didn't talk over me, he allowed me the room to make my points and he argued against them. And like what? Like, you know, what else is there in this country at this point? Like, what else do we have? It's like that is like the shining north star of the thing that we're supposed to be doing. And I think if some writers from Jacobin can take that position, then, you know, maybe some tangle readers with particularly left leaning politics can also hold space for a viewpoint like that. It's, it's a fair and reasonable read on the man, in my opinion. And you can hold it while thinking that he had despicable views and operated in bad faith ways sometimes.
- [37:47]
Camille
Yeah, I mean, like you said, we're talking about a person in the past tense now and that's the screaming headline in the subhead here. And I think there's something that even that description in Jacobin that you just read out reminds me of is that I feel like biologically it's tough for us to conceive of people we don't know. There's many multiples of millions of people that we're sharing not just the earth, but our country with. And it's tough to appreciate them all as humans like us. And so when we read about somebody that we don't know and anything happening to them, we interpret their actions in ways that interact with ours. So it's easy to see this person who you can think of as a debater, a fellow pundit, somebody in the news media, father, husband, things that we share and understand that and empathize with those labels. Whereas for other people, the thing that they have in common with Charlie Kirk is political spectrum. Identify him for the views that he said, for the things that I've interacted with, whoever the eye is here and what these opinions mean to me. So it makes sense to me that you would operate through the lens that you know, which is trying to find a way to relate to him. And if all you know is the 30 second soundbites, the descriptions of the viewpoints, and the ways you've interacted with similar viewpoints before, that's what you're going to be reacting to. And I think it takes a little bit of time to try to get deeper into understanding the screaming headline, which is it's a person who is now in the past tense for those things. And it's not like we're not talking about the things he argued anymore, because he can't argue them anymore. And that's like. That should remain the point. But I just want to reiterate that I understand why we're talking about the things that we know. And for most people, the things that we know about him are the things that we see.
- [39:54]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah. It is interesting that when you encounter people who are vehemently critical of someone in politics, oftentimes they haven't listened to to one of their speeches or presentations in full. What they mostly get are soundbites and the most uncharitable descriptions of who these people are from people that they trust, pundits who they trust. And not to say that those pundits are fundamentally wrong. It's just oftentimes the representations are as biting, as rising as and toward a specific end. And the goal in those instances is not humanizing. It's not to generally find kind of common ground in the ways in which he kind of has a point. But there might be something to this. It's always to try to find the ways in which it is the most absurd. And to the extent you do that, especially with people who work in public who operate in the universe of ideas, good, better, bad and worst. And you're gonna find examples of those terrible things. I imagine if you were to scrutinize my own record, you would find examples of things that I've said that I'm perhaps not very proud of, that I no longer agree with, or that I totally agree with and are completely radical and strange. And it's just a place where we disagree. I do appreciate, Isaac, the few times you've mentioned that you kind of have friends who are on the left and who are on the right, people who are critical of you. I wonder how unusual it is for us to be people who kind of operate in these spaces, but who also have that kind of diversity of perspectives within our friend groups. And I just know we've talked about this quite a bit, so I suspect it's very much the same for both of us. I know lots of people who are on both sides of these issues and who think about things differently. And I think it makes it a lot easier to try to find my way to kind of humanizing people. It's also the case that I have and have had for much of my adult life some strange, eccentric political views, even many of which have moderated in recent years. That's a conversation for another day. But having that makes you perhaps a little bit. And recognizing the degree to which that's the case makes it a little easier, I think as well, to access that empathy muscle and to try to search for understanding and to be willing to bypass the fact that we have these strenuous points of disagreement, disagreements that I think are not only dramatic, but are consequential and still be able to maintain a productive, more than cordial relationship with someone. And that feels like something that's worth striving for. And to the extent you hope to make progress at all, and you believe that there are people like Charlie Kirk out there who are much more nationalist than you are, who perhaps you regard as illiberal in certain ways, how do you expect to fix this problem at all? You talk to each other or you could fight. And I tend to think that what we want, and again, to the extent it's a political project, what we have to do is engage with one another. And again, Charlie was a model of that, if nothing else.
- [43:18]
Isaac Saul
So, I mean, I think there's like a genuine reality in our country today which gets talked about a good bit now, but is relevant in moments like this where most Americans don't have a friend, let alone several friends who they vehemently disagree with on politics or political issues like that is. I mean, there's all sorts of social studies and Gallup polls and Pew Research and whatever bearing this out. But the reality is that a lot of Americans socially are fully isolated in moments like this and sequestered among people who agree with them and see the world the same way they do. So you can imagine somebody who heard about Charlie Kirk's death yesterday, who's maybe a 30 something year old progressive liberal living in some city somewhere. And their group chats that they have with their friends are just being dominated by people like making jokes about it or saying he deserved it, or arguing just the idea that he had it coming. And they're not in any group chats with any people who are like, they just saw like an icon of theirs get killed on a live stream. And they're like completely Broken and furious and see this as like the continuation of this new kind of lefty violence popping up that they attribute to, you know, like some of the stuff we've seen from anti Israel protesters or the second Trump assassination. The first one in Butler, we don't really know anything about the politics or what we do know is confusing. But the second one, you know, the guy who got arrested, like wrote a letter about wanting to kill Trump because he was unfit to be president. You know, like, it's not, I'm not saying it's only left wing violence. There's in fact, historically it's typically right wing violence. But in just the last couple of years, there is this new thread popping up. I think we're seeing something new. And whatever these people are in this isolation. They're not exposed, they're not getting that at all. My experience yesterday was like my fantasy football chat, which is normally just a bunch of people shit, posting and saying stupid things about stuff that doesn't matter that much and talking crap about each other's football team, is mostly guys, friends of mine who are like huge MAGA dudes. And they're like, and they might like these guys who are just like always lighthearted and messing around with each other and saying like vaguely offensive stuff. It was just like all of a sudden them just like totally shocked, furious, mourning, couldn't believe, you know, like asking me what was going to happen next, you know, posting clips of like the insane stuff these MSNBC anchors were saying on tv, you know, worried about like which of their other conservative icons are going to get killed tomorrow, you know. And then like a group chat I have with a bunch of my friends are all lefty, are like sending each other these like terrible memes that are making fun of Charlie Kirk with like his little hands or whatever being killed. And I'm like, I'm just like seeing these two worlds and I'm just like, they're so disconnected, you know, and there, I know that there's just not a lot of people who have that experience now anymore in our country. And it's, dude, it's really scary. And it's like, I think it changes the tenor of these conversations. And I mean, it made something like what I wrote today. I think it, you know, what I'm observing in our comment section is that there are a lot of people with left leaning politics who like, they read what I wrote and it was one of the first pieces they had encountered in the last 12 to 20 hours that was like defending Kirk or prosecuting the idea that you shouldn't be making light of this or claiming that he deserves it. And it pissed them off that they encountered that perspective because they hadn't seen it yet. And everything else they'd been consuming was, like, making the argument that we shouldn't mourn him. And he deserved it because he said there's a cost to gun violence and this.
- [48:09]
Camille
Or at least the Jacobin argument of some kind.
- [48:13]
Isaac Saul
Right? And it's like, you know. Yeah, that part is really alarming to me. I've been saying for years, people ask me all the time because of the nature of tango. Like, you know, I have a neighbor who flies like a MAGA flag, and I'm scared of him. Like, do you have any advice about. I'm just like, dude, buy a six pack of beer and go over there and talk to him. Like, I really don't know what else to tell you. There's just, like. It is so true. I've had the experience so many times with people on the left and on the right who I interact with online. And then I meet them in person, and I'm like, oh, you're like, such an awesome person, and I really like being around you. Why are you so insufferable online? Like, why is that your personality when you're tweeting or. Or, you know, it's like. It is.
- [49:03]
Ari Weitzman
It's true, that experience so many times.
- [49:06]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, it's so many times. It's like we meet in person, we.
- [49:09]
Ari Weitzman
Spend hours together, and suddenly we're like, best friends. Why are you ever the other way? And then I go home and I read your piece in the opinion section of the Washington Post, and it is just awful. Like, who is this monster?
- [49:22]
Isaac Saul
But, yeah, it's really, really, really wild. And it. It's like a lot of the country is experiencing these people only through, like, the personalities that they put out online. And they don't have these personal relationships. They have no touch points for it, you know, So I don't know. Like, if you're listening to this and you are someone who, like, you're having that itch of. He. He deserves it, or. I'm not gonna empathize. I don't care that he got shot. Why aren't we talking about the kids in Denver, which, like, heard. We should be talking about the fact there was a school shooting where a bunch of high school kids died yesterday. And these are of the same kinds of. You know, it's not political violence, I don't think. At least the school shooting. But, like, you know, it's another gun situation, mass shooting type vibe, public killing, whatever. If you're having those thoughts, like, my challenge to you is literally find somebody who loves Charlie Kirk and is mourning right now and just see if you can open a door to a relationship or conversation with them. If it's like a colleague you haven't spoken to in a while who's posting something on Instagram and you're like, I can't believe this guy is like a Charlie Kirk Stan or whatever, actually reach out in good faith and see if you can, like, get a beer with them. And like, we, we literally need, I don't know what else to say. Like, we are in deep, deep shit. And if people don't start doing this kind of thing and learning how to operate with people, I don't care what you think about Charlie Kirk, his politics, whatever. At least he was in the arena talking to people, arguing, trying to move people to his side. And he was, you know, he was inflammatory sometimes. I'm not going to pretend he wasn't. He pissed me off so much, you know, some, somebody, like, searched my, like, Charlie Kirk Twitter history and pulled up screenshots of, like, all this super critical stuff I was saying about him and sent to me like, you don't care. You're celebrating, right? I'm like, no. First of all, Charlie Kirk, trust me, would have appreciated that somebody was engaging his points and arguing and being critical of them in good faith. And second of all, the fact that I was so critical of so many of his positions is the point I am perfectly comfortable holding that while also being like, this guy seemed like he was an incredible dad and a generous dude who took care of his friends and, and was a good person who saw the world very differently than I did and, like, he didn't deserve to get shot. So I don't know, go find somebody to talk to. Touch some grass, get offline. I, I, I don't know, like, I don't know what else to say. It's like, you have to do that or you're going to lose your foreign. We'll be right back after this quick break.
- [52:24]
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- [54:00]
Camille
I kind of want to ask this because compared to where we started when we were talking, we're like, we'll see what comes up as we're going through this discussion for ourselves. And we spent a lot of this discussion so far, I think rightly wafting, wading through some of the reactions that we've gotten and the different to what we've written as well as the reactions of different people to Charlie Kirk's killing. But what we started was like, how are we doing? And one of the things that you wrote today, Isaac, was, you know, honestly, this makes me want to quit. And I just want to ask how you're feeling now. Like just having gone through the process of writing, editing, speaking, talking for the last hour, like, where are you at currently?
- [54:47]
Isaac Saul
I mean I look, we don't work in the coal mines, you know. Like, I'm not going to pretend like I live an incredibly blessed existence. I have a beautiful home, family, stability, roof over my head, a good paying job. I love doing this. Someone puts a mic in front of my mouth. I get to talk shit with my friends for a living. I get to, I have a platform to voice my views. I count my lucky stars every day. I'm not kidding. When I started Tangle six years ago, I was a broke journalist living in New York with like no career prospects and not sure what my next move was, getting rejected from every job I was applying to. Like, I, I've Been unbelievably fortunate to be here. This job is really taxing in a lot of ways. Like, it, you know, I wake up every morning at 5:30am and I open my computer and I am just inundated with terrible news from around the world. A bunch of people writing me emails, telling me about why my worldview sucks. You know, like, just, like, I'm mainlined into Twitter and Instagram and all the newsletters I subscribe to. Like, all these addictive different analyses and platforms. I need to click through and read, and I have to watch everything and, like, my heart rate's up and, you know, the world's burning. And also, I have to formulate a clear, coherent position on this in the next three hours and then publish it to 400,000 people, which is going to start the whole process all over again. Like, it's. It's hard sometimes. I. Again, I'm not, like, pretending that this job is something it isn't, but it is difficult. And I think it would break a lot of people because it does break a lot of people. And some days it's just, like, you just don't. Like, I just don't want to. I, like, I didn't want to step in the arena today. I told Camille this. I mean, we were texting. Camille was like, you know, I'm sure you don't mind me saying this, Camille. Like, he was. Said, like, this morning. He was just feeling, like, emotional. Dude, I. I put Omri to sleep this morning. I'm home alone with my son. I put Omri to sleep this morning. And, like, I came downstairs, he started fussing, he coughed. I went back upstairs, I grabbed him. I started rocking him back to sleep because he's sick right now. And he just fell asleep in my arms. Like, I felt that really heavy. He just, like, fell asleep, and. And I just started fucking crying, dude. Like, Charlie Kirk's got two fucking kids at home who are never gonna see their dad again. You know, like, what are we talking about? And it just broke me. It's like I was sitting there holding my son in the dark, and he's asleep in my arms, and it's the best fucking thing in the world. And I just, like, started crying. And it's like, you hold it in all day, you know, you, like, consume this shit all day. It's like you're going from, like, dead kids in Gaza to fucking Charlie Kirk's head getting blown off on a live stream. So, yeah, like, some days you want to quit it. It sucks. And, like, that's what I'm thinking about is, like, you know, this guy whose views you might hate. Like, he's. You know, he goes on a podcast with a bunch of, like, young women that. Whatever. Podcast, where they're, like. All they do is talk about, like, getting fucked up and hookups and whatever. And he's, like, in there with them, trying to tell them that they will be happy if they build a family and have kids and, like, explain to them how unbelievable it is to them what a blessing it is to them. Like, that's the guy. He is. And you can pretend that that sucks or that he's evil or whatever, but you're. I'm sorry. You're full of shit. And, like, so that's what I'm thinking. It's like, I'm upstairs in my house and I'm holding my kid in the dark, and Charlie Kirk's never gonna do that again, and his kids are never gonna be fucking held by him again because some lunatic shot him in the neck. So, like. Yeah, and what I wrote today, I meant, like, it could be me. Like, I don't know, I'm not as influential or important. And I'm sure there's way fewer people that hate me than there are that hate Charlie Kirk. But, like, I get the emails people write into me and tell me that, you know, I'm responsible for people being killed by the Trump administration or blood libel of Jews or dead guys and kids. And, like, I'm gonna get what I have coming to me, and I'm a dirty fucking Jew. Like, that stuff. Stuff happen, you know, I get that. So, like, it could be me. Like, is this what we're doing now? You know? So. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, what Camille said resonated with me, too. Like, I know that we're on the. I believe that we're on the good side, that we're, you know, we're fighting with the angels. We're, you know, we. We are trying to bring people back from the brink. Charlie believed that, too, by the way. Like, he thought that he was doing something just and moral. He was out there trying to proselytize Christianity and family and conservatism, and he believed he was bringing the country closer to something that was fundamentally good. I know that he believed that. So, yeah, I don't know, man. It's just like, God damn, what are we doing fighting with the angels?
- [60:23]
Camille
Jacobian, if you will.
- [60:25]
Isaac Saul
Yeah. Like, some days I feel like I want to quit, man. I mean, it's like it's just like. And it's not quit because I. It's quit. Like I just want to get out of the arena. Like, I'm. I read the people responding to the stuff I'm saying and I'm just like, I just, I don't want to do this. Like, I don't want to have this argument. I just want to think about the fact that like Charlie's kids don't have a dad anymore and that's that. And like mourn that. Like, that's all I want to do is just like mourn that in peace and not. Not have to hear somebody justify it or tell me that he deserved it or that this is the world he created or whatever else, you know, I'm just so sad for him, man, and for like his family and his friends and. Dude, we have to stop. Like we just. I don't know. And I don't know what the solution is either, you know? You know, like, I don't know how to get out of it. I really don't. I really don't.
- [61:23]
Camille
I think I. I don't know, like even listening to that based off of the thing that you said right before, it was like, just grab a six pack and go talk to that person. Like if. If one of the root causes that we're all sort of feeling, we can all feel is I don't really understand the people on the other side of the fence for me. And it's not even. I don't know them. I mean, some people do, but a lot of them just don't understand. And it's tough work to understand people who are different than you. But this is what happens if you don't do it. I mean, sorry, that's a little self aggrandizing. It's a little bit like overly like borderline quoting something that Charlie Kirk said. But it does. I think this is a pretty clear illustration, honestly, is if we don't do the work to try to understand and we'll never fully get there, some of these worldviews are going to be innately different than ours. We're never going to be able to get all of it, but to just sort of appreciate a little bit, just like 1% more every week or month, then we're going the other direction and that this is the risk that we kind of take when we don't do that work. I mean, I'd said it a little bit earlier, but I think the work of combating people is visible and it's something you can feel and it's Something that you can feel is meaningful, because combating people, you can see what you're doing. But I think the work of trying to find peace is harder, and I think it's more meaningful.
- [62:58]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah, I mean, I think I would go so far as to try and offer a kind of prescription here, which is to say succinctly, not that we disengage from politics, and this is perhaps a little bit of a restatement of something I said earlier, but I'm gonna try to be a little bit more specific, but to approach it in a way that permits one to kind of prioritize things appropriately. Like to always be pursuing nuance, to always be operating with a bit of intellectual humility, and for there to be a kind of determined curiosity in our pursuit. And I think skepticism is really important as well. Like a dutiful, well informed skepticism. Something that is radically different from cynicism, which I think cynicism and conspiracy are kind of the coin of the realm in way too many circles. And that there is the general benefit in our taking a step back even now, like in the moment where we feel, like, quite a bit of pronounced despair about the state of the polity and the state of our politics and our ability to talk to each other. In the 1970s, the radical extremist, politically motivated terror was a nearly daily occurrence. Plane hijackings were a routine occurrence. Bombings were routine occurrences. Things got dramatically better. And I think I'm the oldest person in this particular conversation by a little bit anyways. But the 80s and 90s, by comparison, were radically peaceful in a way that is virtually unprecedented in human history. And 911 rattled dark ages pretty. Pretty substantially, and ushered in a different period in global politics, but perhaps in our domestic politics as well. And it began in this moment where things felt very unified. I mean, the response to George W. Bush in the immediate aftermath of that account attack, who was not a very popular president by any stretch of the imagination at that time, was heartening. It was kind of remarkable. And the speed with which we got someplace else is pretty remarkable too. But I don't want to overstate the degree to which things are bad right now. I think that there are challenges, but there are reasons for optimism. There are lots of really great people who are writing thoughtful things today, who are reaching across aisles, who are thinking to themselves, like, how do we do better at engaging with one another? The fact that at Yankee Stadium last night, there was a moment to kind of honor Charlie Kirk. New York City is not a bastion of conservative sentiment. It is a place, however, filled with a diverse array of people, many of whom feel the way that we do and who are hoping for something better in our politics and from ourselves. And I think the question to ask ourselves all the time is, are we being part of the solution? You jump on X, you jump on blue sky, you jump into the comments over at Tangle, and are you saying something that's productive, that's useful, that is kind of appropriately recontextualizing things, that's perhaps expanding someone else's horizons, that's an expression of your own uncertainty? Or is it all a demagoguery all the time? And if it is, then there's probably something wrong there because there's plenty to be excited about, there's plenty to be optimistic about, and it's worth making certain that we're leavening our interactions with one another in the context of our politics, broadly speaking, with an understanding that we are all, in many respects, working towards the same things and at least motivated by much the same thing, like our concern for our families, for their well being, for their health, and for kind of the preservation and perfection of our national project. We want that, and what we mean by that can be somewhat different, but that means it's worth exploring and unpacking and talking about. However dangerous I regard those ideas, I will say that one sentiment that I hope goes away, and I have particular concerns about this as a kind of rabid free speech advocate and I'd even say activist, is this notion of speech being violence. It isn't ever. And I just don't. I loathe the phrase in a way that's difficult to overstate. And, yeah, I'd be very pleased if I never heard it again.
- [68:08]
Camille
And it's twin. That silence is violence. Yes.
- [68:12]
Ari Weitzman
Yes.
- [68:13]
Isaac Saul
Yeah.
- [68:14]
Ari Weitzman
Silence is consent.
- [68:18]
Isaac Saul
A good reminder.
- [68:19]
Ari Weitzman
That's your T shirt.
- [68:21]
Isaac Saul
It is a good reminder that.
- [68:23]
Camille
Let's move on from that.
- [68:27]
Isaac Saul
All right. Well, Camille, I think I actually would like to leave it there. Really well said. And I think a good call to action. And I'm trying to hear and let what you said settle in and not reject it out of hand with pessimism. But I think you're probably right. I mean, I do. I do, I do. I think you're probably right that it's, you know, we've seen worse and crawled out of worse.
- [68:56]
Ari Weitzman
We fought a civil war.
- [68:58]
Isaac Saul
Yeah. I mean. Yeah. And it. And. And there's no reason that we can't or won't come back from the brink here, too. It's just. Yeah. On days like Today, it's kind of hard to see the light, but I guess that's sort of all the more reason or reach for it or keep. Keep pushing people to, to catch it somehow. But, yeah, I don't. I gotta say, I don't feel the grievances today. I don't feel it in my bones. So I don't want to make it a habit to pick and choose, you know, what topics are worthy of skipping some sort of segment like that. But I think there's just like a certain soberness in the air that's appropriate and maybe we should lean into. Even if you guys don't agree, we'll call that the Isaac pulling the executive editor card.
- [69:57]
Camille
No, it's. That's all right. I think we. That's one of the benefits of running a media company. Right? You just get to make the call when you feel it.
- [70:05]
Isaac Saul
Yeah.
- [70:06]
Camille
I don't know this opposite of a grievance, but I don't. I'm not sure where all three of you or all two of you are. Like, Isaac, I know you're in Philly. I'm not. I. Camille, are you in New York?
- [70:16]
Ari Weitzman
I'm in SoHo. Yeah, in New York.
- [70:19]
Camille
Beautiful day here. I don't know about where you guys are, but it's just like. I don't know if that's part of it, like the contrast, but just walking outside, I could not ask for a more perfect time to be on earth right now, just in terms of what the earth's doing. It's just a beautiful time to go outside and sit and let the light hit you.
- [70:39]
Isaac Saul
Well, I've got a well timed Friday edition coming out tomorrow that I hope sprays some light into the world on just some of the restoration of my faith in society that's happened since I had a kid. So hopefully we can lean into a little bit of good vibes headed into the weekend. But I think today for sure, I'm just waddling in it a little bit. And not just Charlie, you know, but Melissa Hortman and Brian Thompson and Trump and everybody else who's been kind of on the wrong end of this tide of political violence. I mean, I think we should be thinking about all of them, not just Charlie. So, you know, like I said in the piece, he was somebody who called for dialogue over violence. He fundamentally did that. Again, whether you thought he incited bad behavior or not, he was really clear about what he was doing and what his project was, which was to make sure people were talking to each other so they didn't kill each other. And it's a deep and tragic irony that he ended up being the victim of political violence for that. So yeah, we'll be back next week, hopefully with, you know, less depressing news about the world. And I hope you guys take care of yourselves this weekend and keep an eye out for for the Friday edition in podcast form soon because hopefully that'll make you feel a little bit better about things. All right, peace. Big piece. Big piece this week onward.
- [72:13]
Ari Weitzman
Cheers.
- [72:15]
Isaac Saul
Our Executive Editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our Executive Producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by Managing Editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will K. Back and Associate Editors Hunter Casperson, Audrey Moorhead Bailey, Saul, Lindsey Knuth and Kendall White. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@readtangle.com foreign hey, it's Marc Maron.
- [72:58]
Ari Weitzman
From WTF here to let you know that this podcast is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
- [73:03]
Isaac Saul
And I'm sure the reason you're listening to this podcast right now is because.
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Ari Weitzman
You chose it well.
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Isaac Saul
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Isaac Saul
Not available in all states.
- [73:30]
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