Tangle – "Suspension of the rules." (Nov 14, 2025)

Host: Isaac Saul
Guests: Ari Weitzman, Camille (Kmele) Foster
Setting: In person, New York City

Episode Overview

In this in-person episode, Isaac, Ari, and Camille (Kmele) dive into three main topics dominating the political conversation:

• The controversy surrounding Tucker Carlson's platforming of Nick Fuentes
• The recent drop of Jeffrey Epstein-related emails and documents, and implications for Trump and others
• A retrospective on the recent government shutdown, asking if Democrats may have quietly "won" the fight

Woven throughout are discussions of media responsibility, social dynamics of political radicalization, and critiques of how both left and right handle controversy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nick Fuentes, Tucker Carlson, and the Cost of Platforming Controversial Figures

[06:13–22:24, 25:05–61:00]

Background: Tucker Carlson, a major figure in conservative media, recently hosted Nick Fuentes—a known white nationalist, antisemite, and "incel" leader—provoking backlash even in right-wing circles. Isaac’s recent Tangle piece and the subsequent media reactions set the stage for a discussion on platforming, media responsibility, and combating toxic ideologies.

Key Arguments:

• Deplatforming vs. Exposure:

  • Ari: Bringing someone like Fuentes into the open is valuable. "Understanding tends to de-radicalize people." – [14:38]
  • Isaac: Deplatforming "doesn’t work... bringing them on and shining the light on them is helpful in a lot of ways." – [12:00]

• On Fuentes Himself:

  • Isaac: "I left [the interview] feeling like I really understood him and I pitied him in a lot of ways... [it] made him so much less threatening to me." – [13:45]
  • Ari: "If we’re able to approach people who are forming these views with a little bit of compassion and grace, maybe they don’t deserve it or haven’t earned it, but it’s better for everybody." – [16:53]

• The Appeal of Fringe Figures:

  • Kmele: "Nick Fuentes can seem profoundly brave because he's simply willing to defy this convention over and over again... That is part of the power he’s been able to wield." – [44:08]
  • There’s a discomfort in acknowledging how the rigid enforcement of social taboos can give fuel to trolls and extremists who transgress them.

• Pushback within the Right:

  • Debate on whether figures like Tucker or Candace Owens warrant engagement or condemnation, and the importance of 'policing one's own.'

• Majority vs. Minority:

  • Kmele: "We outnumber them and we should remember that…They don’t outnumber us… gives more people more courage, especially people on their side, to speak out." – [25:05]
  • Echoed by Isaac and Ari: Yes, views like Fuentes’ are horrifying but remain fringe.

• How to Respond:

  • Responding with "compassion and grace" is not about excusing, but about strategically undermining toxic worldviews—while maintaining that not everyone has the capacity (or responsibility) to respond this way.

Quotes & Moments:

• Ari (on seeing the value of open engagement):
  "If you're looking to understand Nick Fuentes, I think [the interview] was really valuable." – [11:18]

• Isaac (on the effect of the Tucker/Fuentes interview):
  "If you left feeling like Nick Fuentes was some sort of ideological leader…you're a rube." – [12:00]

• Kmele (on backlash and what worries him):
  "I'm particularly interested in the phenomena… where a number of conservatives were deeply concerned that there was infighting happening because of all this flap," leading to reluctance in self-policing their own side. – [40:00]

• Isaac (quoting Reddit criticism of his piece): "The root of the problem is minorities are too mean to people who do racist and sexist things is incomplete…" – [30:19]

2. The Jeffrey Epstein Email Drop & Trump Connections

[62:34–85:32]

Background: On the day of recording, both House Democrats and Republicans released thousands of pages of Jeffrey Epstein-related emails and documents. There’s renewed interest in possible incrimination of Trump and broader speculation around Epstein’s relationships.

Key Arguments:

• Content of the Emails:

  • House Democrats released exchanges showing Epstein and Trump were familiar, referencing Trump’s knowledge of women ("girls") Epstein was associated with.
  • Michael Wolff, a well-known journalist, appeared to be giving Epstein PR advice about handling media mentions related to Trump—a finding that both Isaac and Kmele considered quite damning for Wolff’s reputation.

• Do These Emails Move the Needle?

  • Kmele: Even if the worst-case scenario were spelled out by Epstein, "one would still have to read an email like this with a degree of profound skepticism given the source." – [70:53]
  • The emails arguably add context, but don’t provide a "smoking gun" regarding Trump’s direct criminal involvement.

• Conspiracy Theories & Impossibility of Closure:

  • Ari: "We're always going to be asked for more Epstein files… this is never going to be a story that gets fed sufficiently..." – [72:25]
  • No matter how much is released, suspicions will linger—total closure is impossible.

• What’s Plausible?

  • Isaac: "A less sophisticated… more plausible theory is: Trump and Epstein partied together in the ‘90s and early 2000s, and Epstein was trafficking women and underage girls… It feels totally… within the realm of possibility."
  • All agree that, while serious, there is still no direct evidence tying Trump to criminal conduct—but the overall proximity is disturbing.

• Why Is Trump So Eager to Bury the Files?

  • Isaac: "Maybe there’s another reason he doesn’t want all this stuff to come out… It’s weird." – [81:50]
  • The panel speculates that embarrassment or political fallout is as likely a motivator as a smoking-gun criminal secret.

Quotes & Moments:

• Isaac (on Michael Wolff):
  "Michael Wolff, this guy who’s a journalist… is at the same time giving media advice to Jeffrey Epstein, who by now… is understood to be a sexual predator… that gives me big time ick." – [66:34]

• Ari (on public hunger for the ultimate 'Epstein file'):
  "There's so many gradations… we can just be talking in circles." – [75:23]

• Kmele (on the never-ending demand for more evidence):
  "Whether this is true or false… we will never have sufficient evidence to make this go away." – [72:55]

• Camille (on the credibility of allegations):
  "If he and I had actually engaged in criminal activity together, I'm not sure I would suggest in the email he knew what was going on because he was hanging out with a girl at the house. I would say 'of course he knew, he's guilty as sin. We committed crimes together,' not 'he was hanging out with a girl at the house.'" – [79:38]

3. Government Shutdown: Did Democrats Quietly Win?

[85:48–97:22]

Background: The panel revisits the outcome of the recent government shutdown, considering an argument (citing Bulwark’s Tim Miller) that Democrats may have come out ahead—even if the optics were muddy or a "fold" was apparent to the base.

Key Arguments:

• Political Argument:

  • Democrats forced Republicans to own potentially unpopular positions—particularly on healthcare (ACA/Obamacare subsidies).
  • Even though Dems didn’t get everything, the fight sets up future leverage and puts the opposition on record.

• Was It Really a Win?

  • Ari: "Instead of saying Democrats folded, it's just that they played their hand wrong…They could have picked a different hill and died on it… something less debatable than ACA subsidies." – [91:13]
  • Kmele: "Not every occasion of escaping defeat is, in fact, a victory." – [93:45]

• Reader Poll:

  • Ari shares that 47% of Tangle readers thought Republicans "won" the shutdown, while only 45% said "neither" and just 2% "unsure/don’t care."

Quotes & Moments:

• Isaac (setting up the new argument):
  "A couple things could happen… All of those things will happen under the threat of another shutdown… and maybe that puts Democrats on stronger, more solid ground than… standing up to Trump’s authoritarianism." – [89:41]

• Ari (on Democratic strategy):
  "They had a stronger hand." – [91:13]

• Kmele (on the limits of 'winning'):
  "Not every occasion of escaping defeat is, in fact, a victory." – [93:45]

4. Other Memorable Exchanges & Quotes

• On the "Bravery Magic" of Truth-Telling Extremists:

  • Kmele: "Nick Fuentes can seem profoundly brave because he's simply willing to defy this convention over and over again with confidence and verve…" – [44:08]

• On Nostalgia & Perceived Decline:

  • Isaac: "Can we just…move on to what we have now and deal with it… If I see one more video of 1990s New York City and everybody’s like, look how much better life used to be…" – [103:09]

Notable Lightning Round: Airing of Grievances

[102:07–108:09]

• Kmele: Wishes the podcast could be done in person more often, "It’s always better to be sitting down..." – [102:31]
• Isaac: Fed up with nostalgia porn and those claiming the past was better, especially regarding safer times for kids. – [103:05]
• Ari: Chagrined by procrastinating on winter tire changes and being buried after the first snow. – [106:15]

Memorable Quotes With Timestamps

• "Deplatforming ... hasn't worked with Fuentes."
  – Isaac Saul [12:00]

• "Understanding tends to de-radicalize people."
  – Ari Weitzman [14:38]

• "We outnumber them and we should remember that."
  – Kmele Foster [25:05]

• "If you want to change somebody's mind... you have to take a different path."
  – Isaac Saul [33:52]

• "Not every occasion of escaping defeat is, in fact, a victory."
  – Kmele Foster [93:45]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:35–06:13: Light banter and setup for in-person episode
• 06:13–61:00: Tucker/Fuentes controversy, radicalization, platforming
• 62:34–85:32: Epstein email dump, Trump implications, conspiracy culture
• 85:48–97:22: Shutdown retrospective
• 102:07–108:09: Airing of grievances (lightning round)

Takeaways

• Open engagement, not avoidance, is more effective in countering fringe, hateful ideologies—but requires skill, patience, and courage, and isn’t for everyone.
• The Epstein email drop raises new avenues of suspicion but little concrete evidence—and the hunger for a grand revelation might never be satisfied.
• Democrats’ handling of the government shutdown wasn’t a clear victory, but the political consequences remain open to interpretation, with some seeing a clever long game and others a missed opportunity.
• Honest self-critique, acknowledgment of complexity, and the necessity of self-policing within political tribes emerged as recurring themes.

For listeners who missed the episode:
This conversation is an intricate, at times philosophical, behind-the-headlines tour of political media, radicalization, and the realities of American partisanship—punctuated with humor, candor, and depth. If you care about how ideas spread, the media's power, or the state of political argument, it’s a must-hear (or must-read) episode from Tangle.