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- [00:01]
Camille
Seeking, pushing, optimizing, creating, learning, discovering.
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Isaac Saul
At Aramco, we believe in harnessing the power of data to push the limits of what's possible.
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Camille
That's how we deliver reliable energy to millions across the world. Aramco, an integrated energy and chemicals company. Learn more about us@aramco.com a better help ad hold on one second.
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Isaac Saul
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Lemonada Media Narrator
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Young Mother/Student
I'm balancing work and being a mom at the same time, and I'm still on track to graduate with my Bachelor's next year.
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Lemonada Media Narrator
So what do today's young people need to truly thrive? Tune in to Good Things from Lemonada Media to hear the six part Thrive series
- [01:33]
Isaac Saul
coming up. Rand Paul's Son Makes a Very Big Mistake. We talk hantavirus and some AOC 2028 prospects, along with a few other very interesting clips from the Internet. It's a great episode. You guys are going to enjoy it. Good morning, good afternoon and good evening and welcome to the Suspension of the Rules podcast. This is a place where we have some level headed political dialogue. Try to disagree amicably and talk shit about Rand Paul's son who got hammered and did the worst possible thing you could do. I have two thoughts. First of all, let me introduce this story. This is my favorite cold open ever in the history of Suspension of the Rules.
- [02:28]
Ari Weitzman
I think because it follows immediately, let's be level headed and amicably.
- [02:34]
Isaac Saul
Rand Paul's son drunkenly berated lawmaker Mike Lawlor at a bar, pointed his finger at him and called him a Jewish in front of a reporter. And there's a lot to talk about here. Everybody's going to be talking about the anti Semitism and whatever and have debates about that. As a fellow Jew, I'll say, well, Mike Lawler's not even a Jew. But as a Jew. Yeah, which is the funniest part. As a Jew, I'll say. I have a hard time getting worked up about that in this current climate. But what I did feel was why doesn't this ever happen to me? As a reporter, I've never been sitting at a bar and and had an immediate automatic viral slam dunk story just fall into my lap. Like nobody's ever drunkenly approached me at a bar and said, hey, I work for the CIA. Let me tell you some secrets. And Rand Paul's son just makes this reporter's day by inter interrupting what was probably a really boring interview with Mike Lawler and then drunkenly berating him and handing this notice reporter a perfect layup of a story. Do we care about something like this? Camille, you're not allowed to answer. You're in the tank for Rand Paul. So, Ari.
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Ari Weitzman
Okay. Can I answer as Camille?
- [03:56]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, please. That's a good exercise.
- [03:59]
Ari Weitzman
Okay. Well, first of all, I find it exceedingly strange that we have to preface our answers with these constructions such as, as a Jew, I don't know why my point of view as a Jew would have to matter. As a rational person in this sit. I have to go off the rails there. It's really tough to stay in this character in an.
- [04:18]
Isaac Saul
That sounds pretty good.
- [04:19]
Camille
I mean, Ari, I've never heard you sound so bright and thoughtful and interesting, honestly. Wow.
- [04:25]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah, I feel like. Yeah, I'm way out of my depth for sure.
- [04:29]
Isaac Saul
Let me just briefly, just for our audience, I just want to read an excerpt of this notice story in full view of this notice. Reporter. The younger Paul, who introduced himself as the Republican senator's son, confronted Lawlor about Representative Thomas Massie's GOP primary election in Kentucky. Paul said to Lawler, if Massie loses, it's going to be because of your people. My people? Lawlor asked Paul. Yeah, you Jews. Paul responded. Do you think I'm Jewish? Lawlor asked. I'm not. Oh, wow. I'm so sorry for calling you a Jew. Paul said. He then continued on a tirade about how Jews were anti American. Now, Lawler and his Jewish supporters served Israel more than America. So the story goes on like this for a little while. And then finally, Lawlor tried to end the conversation and said, well, you just seem to hate Jews, so there's no point arguing anymore. Paul then shoved his finger in Lawler's face, saying, don't put words in my mouth, Mike Lawlor, I never said that. He then began to complain about Mike Lawler's push to raise the salt cap and then turned around and flipped off Mike Lawler, to which Lawler said, did you just give me the middle finger? And Paul said, I'm sorry. Yeah, I did. I'm just really drunk. I'm going to leave. He then paid his tab and started to walk away. And on his way out, he knocked his barstool down and tripped over it. This is one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. Most incredible straight news reported stories I think I've ever seen. Camille, thoughts anything you want to add to this?
- [06:00]
Camille
I didn't know if I was allowed to comment. I didn't know if I was allowed to comment on this. Yes, it is true. I do know Rand a bit. I would say that we're somewhat friendly, but I think I'm always fair. It's in this particular case though, it seems really important that the kid was drunk. And I actually don't know how old he is, but it says in the story that he was drunk. I do think that that ought to matter in circumstances like this. It also seems appropriate to say, and I think I text this to you as well, Isaac, and this is probably an unpopular opinion. We probably need to acknowledge that it's sometimes okay to talk about groups in this way and that there are weird double standards and there are all sorts and it's always crude, it's always ick. But people say categorical things about white people and whites and it's again, always crude. And I think I would just love for there not to be a double standard. That doesn't make this okay. What it does in general is say, do you sometimes talk like this? Maybe you should not talk like this. Maybe we should all do better.
- [07:06]
Isaac Saul
You're saying let's not talk about the Jews in broad stroke terms. We should have the sensitivity we have about that. The same way somebody might say like all white people are racist, they're all black people. Whatever, Whatever.
- [07:19]
Camille
Yeah, get rid of all those categorical generalizations about people based on identity. And certainly Rand Paul's son ought to do precisely that.
- [07:27]
Isaac Saul
Fair point. I love that. All in on that. Take, you've got me sold. Drunk matters like yeah, matters. And I think it matters like because he tripped over a bar stool and fell and I'm like, okay, yeah, he's not just a clumsy guy. He was shit faced. Does it matter when he's accusing non Jew lawmakers of being Jews and they're. I mean that just feels like he got drunk and his real feelings came to the surface. Yeah.
- [07:55]
Ari Weitzman
I don't know if the most bombastic accusation is calling somebody a Jew when they're not one is probably more his assertions about what Jews do in general.
- [08:03]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, yeah, it was.
- [08:04]
Ari Weitzman
I mean we're all kind of laughing because it's like so absurd, you know, like this idea that ridiculous. It is something I could see like a good Jewish Screenwriter writing the scene. Like, your people are like this. And a person's like, what me? Do you think I'm Jewish? And he's like, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know you weren't Jewish. It's like, that's such a good, classic setup. It's also, like, pretty terrible. And I think that contrast is funny. I mean, I'm also a little bit with Camille that it does kind of matter that he's drunk, but like, in as much as, like, he's acting like an asshole. But I, you know, I guess in vino vera tassel, as they say.
- [08:41]
Camille
I mean, you get like a discount. It's. It's maybe 20% discount. That's it.
- [08:45]
Ari Weitzman
But it is. It is like, kind of revealing of a worldview that is pretty.
- [08:51]
Isaac Saul
It's like, I mean, let me put it like this. After reading this article. Do you think the Republican senator, Rand Paul's son hates Jews or not?
- [09:02]
Camille
Well, he says.
- [09:03]
Isaac Saul
I would say I think he. No, no, I would say I think he does. I read this article, and the conclusion that I leave with is that Rand Paul, who's a Republican senator, his son seems to kind of hate Jews. And like, the reporters reached out to Rand Paul for comment. They reached out to his son for comment. They didn't get comment. Which, like, great opportunity to say, hey, I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have. You know, I was tuned up. Me and the fellows went out. We were a little banged up. We were talking about aipac. I got carried away. I saw Mike Lower there. He's Italian, kind of looks Jewish. I don't know. I got confused. I mean, you could throw all sorts of stuff out there. But no, they didn't say anything. No apology. So I don't know. I'm just. I got my eye on Rand Paul's son and maybe just guilty by association, a little bit of Rand Paul. That's all I'm going to say.
- [09:48]
Camille
But you read the quote where he says, it sounds like you. Lawler says it sounds like you hate Jews. To which he responds, don't put words in your mouth.
- [09:55]
Ari Weitzman
I didn't say that very much like Ben Affleck in that scene at Good Will Hunting. No, no, I didn't say that.
- [10:01]
Camille
Actually. Purportedly determined, determined anti Semites, when you say something like that to them, they generally don't respond with, hey, don't put words in my mouth. They say. Well, obviously, that's what they say.
- [10:13]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah, I think, like, they probably do. I think that there's a very, very Small number of anti Semites who. They're like, oh, you're just saying that you hate Jews. And they're like, yes, that is correct. I am saying that I hate Jews. I think more often than not, the response is like, that may be. I didn't say that. Wow. I think there's a lot of wink nodding going on there. It's so, like, I agree with Isaac here. I think it's really tough to come away from this without any other kind of interpretation. Then, like, this guy probably has some. He's harboring some generalizations about the Jewish folk, I think, and many probably not positive.
- [10:49]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, maybe he's just. I wouldn't say his feelings are, you know, that like, Pew study, like, are your feelings warm or cold about this religious group? I would say his feelings were not particularly warm about the Jews, is probably how I would put it. All right, well, we've got real news reports. Sorry, that story just popped up in the tangle Slack right before we got on the show. So I couldn't help myself but talk about it. I think one of the, you know, one of the ways that I take the temperature of the people, of the electorate is just based on what kinds of text messages I'm getting from my friends in any given week, what sorts of stories they're asking me about. It's like, that is my straw pole. I'm the politics guy. So people in my social group, when they have a question about something that's going on, they message me like, hey, is this a big deal? Should I care about this? Et cetera. And so I get a lot of interesting signals just from that immediate social group.
- [11:43]
Ari Weitzman
And.
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Isaac Saul
And I would say one of the things that I've gotten the most text messages about in the last few weeks is the hantavirus. Some people. Hantavirus. I kind of like the sound of hantavirus more. I've heard it pronounced both ways, which is interesting. I will be saying hantavirus for the foreseeable future. As far as I understand, by the way, both are correct. There's some weird maybe, Ari. I don't know if you've looked into this, but I find it interesting and a compelling signal that a lot of people have been asking me about this. So I. I wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about it today. We covered it on the show. Ari wrote the take in today's newsletter and talked about it on the podcast that came out on Wednesday as we record this. So maybe, Ari, you could introduce a little bit of the story. What we know Right now, kind of where things are. And then I've got some stuff I want to kind of explore with you guys.
- [12:33]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah, I'll try to give as high level and basic the details as I can without introducing any of my feelings about it. I'm also saying hantavirus here. That's the way that I've heard it pronounced most of the time by people who are discussing it, who are informed about it. I don't prefer the way that sounds, but I do think that that is just the way that it's pronounced more often than not. The story is basically this, this cruise ship, a very particular small cruise ship, about 150 people were on board. It's called the MV Hondius. It was a Dutch Polar expedition cruise. So a smaller people set of people going to a specific location for a longer period of time went on its expedition. At one point a couple of the passengers who had embarked in a port of call in South America returned to the ship. Later we discovered, or one of them discovered had contracted hantavirus. Fast forwarding a bit. One of those people in the couple that had disembarked ended up dying of the disease. Several of the people disembarked at St Helena, which is an island, remote island, in the southern Atlantic. And, and fast forwarding again to today. What we know is three people have died of the disease. There have been nine confirmed cases, two more suspected based on symptoms but not confirmed based on test. As of now, those passengers have been identified and are disembarking in their various home countries. So as relates to the U.S. 18Americans have disembarked in the United States and they're being tracked and followed by the cdc. And that is where we are as of right now.
- [14:12]
Isaac Saul
It's interesting kind of being in a moment like this. I think this is probably the first real public health scare. That's reminiscent of COVID in a way where it's. It's just like carrying a lot of social capital. You know, we had monkeypox and bird flu, but I feel like they had, they didn't really break through in the same way. Like this feels hantavirus is not a novel virus like the novel coronavirus, but it does feel not. I'd never heard of it. It feels novel for the public. So everybody's kind of learning about this new thing. We're tracking these people. They're very similar to Covid where it's already international. Interestingly, because of the cruise ship dynamics, there's like, there's people in America with it. There's people going back to Germany. They're like South Africa. They're, you know, traveling all over the world. So it's like it's touching all corners. And if it were super contagious, it would be like on every continent pretty quickly, basically. And it got me thinking and I'm interested to hear from you guys. I didn't prepare either of you for this question, so I'll be curious what comes to mind when I immediately ask it, which is like, what did we learn from COVID From a media perspective, maybe a public health perspective, you feel inclined. But how do you think about approaching a topic like this the same or differently after the experience of going through Covid, I think like the probably most obvious and interesting different dynamic here, which we talked a little bit about today in the newsletter, is the COVID pandemic drew incredible alarm from public health officials who very early on were like, this has the potential to be terrible. And I think it's undeniable. Whoever you blame it on, like Covid was terrible. It shut down the. Not locked down the country, but it shut down the world for weeks and then impacted the world very negatively for months and years in ways that we're still feeling. And millions of people died from the virus. I mean, it was a very deadly, all awful pandemic. In this case, the public health officials don't seem alarmed. They seem like they're raising the alarm. But I'm not hearing any of them say, this is something you really need to be worried about. The public, they feel like the tracking's working. We've got it pretty contained. I wouldn't describe their demeanor as nervous, so I think that's pretty different. But I've just been thinking about this as we approach it with tangle. What did we learn from COVID How do we do the job better? Sort of transmitting this information from public health officials, bringing skepticism of what they're telling us, taking the input of the public, collectively giving this sort of holistic look at something like a public health issue. I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about that or how you're feeling about it.
- [17:11]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah, I think the first thing is just really working to remain neutral and reporting and repeating the things that we are the most certain of and leading with that. And in that spirit, I just want to add a little bit of color to the story and agree with the aspects that you're saying. Identify this as something that feels the most similar as a post COVID pandemic esque story. The first, the cruise ship dynamic like that's a sort of made for TV kind of thing, where we learn about the ship and we're following it along as the passengers are on board. Like it's irresistible fodder for the cable media ecosystem. The second is the international aspect and the third is the novelness of it and the deadliness of it. The mortality rate reportedly for this strain of the virus is 40 to 50%. That's huge. And this hantavirus is something that a lot of people didn't know about. I mean, something that I didn't know about before the, the story broke and then we had to read and learn a lot. This is the only strain of this family of viruses that can be transmitted from person to person. It requires much, much closer contact in order for that to happen. And then COVID 19 did than other respiratory diseases do. And for that reason, like, that tempers a lot of the, of the reporting, the tenor of the reporting that you're hearing. And to answer your question directly about what we learned and try to transition to that, just trying to ask, like, are we sure about those things and why are we sure and how do we know? Like, the two things that I just said that we really have to get more specific knowledge about, I think are one, that this is the only hantavirus strain that can be transmitted person to person. The papers that I've read all say it's the only known strain to be transmitted person to person. So we should be really careful not to say as an absolute fact this is the case. Because if it, if it turns out that there's a mutation or some very poorly understood or extremely rare version of this that can be transmitted person to person, us repeating this claim and saying this was the only one is going to cause a lot of decreased trust. So as of right now, it's the only one we know about. The second thing is how it's transmitted. That's something that there isn't a lot of specific knowledge about. And from what I've read, nothing confirms this is the mechanism. We all know it. The reported, just empirical data shows that all of the transmissions have been through close contact. The theory is through aerosolized saliva. And not like, I'm breathing 10ft away from you and you could pick it up, but like really, really close, like to the level of I'm spinning in your face. And again, this is just me characterizing. It's not reporting it, but it is to say, like, we aren't certain. So there is a level of detail here that we still have to leave room for so that we can make sure as we know things, we aren't making retractions. Because I think when we look back at what happened over Covid, a thing that caused a lot of alarm and a loss in public trust and reporters and and so called experts, I think people who were expert, but it was just the overconfidence and the way that things were reported as fact when they were really best understandings at the time that needed to change. I think giving a little bit more respect towards the public to pick up on differences in phrasing is important to say this is what we know, this is what we can believe based on best evidence and trust that people understand the difference between those things. Right now, what we believe based on best evidence is it's the only strain that transmits person to person. It's not very transmittable, but we don't know exactly how and we aren't certain that that is the only one so steadily that's scary. But it does not, based on everything we know, look to be a virus that is highly contagious. So we can continue with that understanding and then as we learn more, that's going to give us more information on either edge of that thing, then we can adjust. But we have to leave room on the margins for us to adjust our worldviews as we learn.
- [21:20]
Isaac Saul
Camille, what do you think we've learned since the COVID pandemic? What lessons for the media to take away?
- [21:26]
Camille
I mean, Ari, I think gave the kind of rosiest assessment of what we've learned. I mean, I think the truth is that with respect to the media, I've certainly seen some reporting that's a little hyperbolic and speculative. Is this the most devastating?
- [21:41]
Isaac Saul
Is this Covid?
- [21:41]
Camille
Are we doing it again with the scary music? I've also seen more thoughtful coverage that's a bit more cautious. That is doing precisely what Ari said. What I'm really interested in is what public health officials are going to be saying and how frequently they're going to be updating people. I think what Ari said earlier about overconfidence, that certainly was one of the problems with COVID But more often than not, I think it was actually the reversals and where the recommendation would just change dramatically without much explanation and without any acknowledgement that the recommendation had been different before. I think that can create a pretty profound sense of uncertainty. It can degrade trust in the institution. And I think to the extent that kind of messaging happens again here, that would be pretty devastating. So perhaps the reason why I am still waiting to see what US Public health officials in particular are saying is actually a good thing. I would hope that they're being cautious, selective about the things that they say, even the perception of them kind of going out front making a big announcement with kind of a gaggle of doctors there trying to communicate a sense of we're the experts, you can trust us. I think even that might be poorly received in a circumstance where we don't yet have reason for extraordinary concern. I think you wait until there's a set of circumstances that at least give you an indication that, hey, this could be as big as Covid before you even try to kind of bring out the big guns in that way. So at the moment, folks seem to be being cautious. That's great. I think that's totally appropriate. My hope would be, as we learn more, as Ari was saying, that we would kind of qualify our learning and that we would be careful in the event that there had to be some sort of change or revision to the guidance that was being given to the public.
- [23:41]
Isaac Saul
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Get your free quote@ethos.com Tangle that's Ethos E-T-H O S.com Tangle Application times may vary and rates may vary when people talk about energy recovery and performance, what do they usually overlook? The truth is, it's fiber. Most people think fiber is just about staying regular, but fiber actually plays a major role in energy stability, recovery, focus and overall performance. Once you understand how gut health works, momentous Fiber plus stops feeling like just another supplement and starts feeling foundational. As a lifelong athlete, I'm always looking for the edge and the kinds of supplements that can really make me feel better in my body. And I have to say I feel like I found it with Momentous. Whether I'm using their creatine chews or their momentous fiber plus, I have to say I just feel a lot better. I don't usually advertise supplements, but these are some of the best in the industry used by professional athletes and of course, people like me who are just trying to stay fit and feel good. Right now, Momentous is offering our listeners up to 35% of your first order with promo code Tangle. Head to livemomentous.com and use the promo code Tangle for up to 35% off your first order. That's livemomentous.com promo code Tangle. You know, one of the quotes that I got into the newsletter today, which I passed on to Ari, a text message that I received from a friend that I think sort of gives us or gave me an interesting pause and consideration about the mindset of the public. I'm just going to read it really quick was everyone I know who has a Ph.D. thinks that hantavirus is going to be nothing. So I think it's gonna be a huge deal, which I thought was just, it's such a nice little slice of the psyche that we have in kind of the post Covid world, which I find fascinating. I mean, for so many reasons. Like I feel like I could write a whole book about that sentence. One thing I would just say is like, I think the experts on Covid had a decidedly mixed bag record. They got a lot of things right and they got some big things wrong. And most of what they got wrong to me in retrospect feels more like communication errors than scientific errors. And I don't think the lesson that I took away from COVID was that the experts are wrong about everything. I think there was groupthink and I think there were dissenting opinions who were silenced. And I think there were perfectly inbounds perspectives that were labeled as misinformation and dangerous conspiracies. All of that definitely happened. But I think if we had done everything that the epidemiologists wanted us to do and the public health experts wanted us to do, and there was actually buy in and there was across the board support from that in our country, which there was not, probably a lot fewer, many fewer people would have died and we would have been much better off, maybe not economically in the immediate term, but potentially the longer term and, and the virus could have sort of dissipated quicker. We saw in other countries that there was a downside to slowing the Curve, flattening the curve early on, places like South Korea that had really good buy in got crushed by Covid later because they didn't have the initial wave that gave everybody immunity and changed the dynamics of how the virus would spread later. So there's like, it's really complicated. There are all these different variables. But I'm not in a position now where some Johns Hopkins epidemiologist who's been studying how viruses mutate for the last 20 years in a lab or by tracking public health issues is like an idiot now or I trust them less than I trust some contrarian influencer on YouTube. No. And that's not just deference to the experts. I will still have skepticism about those sorts of things. But like, it's just basic common sense. There are people who know how this stuff works and understand it at the most detail oriented, like granular level. And then there's the rest of us that sort of read the dumbed down versions of their reports and the knowledge that they've accrued and tried to make sense of it. And so I am certainly not coming into something like this where I'm gonna go listen to, you know, some YouTube host named Isaac Saul and do what he says. Like, that is not the right thing to do. You should listen to the professional public health experts. Like I still feel in that camp. But there is an emotional appeal to the. All the PhD people think this isn't going to be a big deal. So I think it's going to be huge. That kind of resonates for me. And I don't really know how to bridge those two things which I find interesting. Like both positions seem compelling to me.
- [29:34]
Ari Weitzman
Well, I think it's sort of the answer to the opposite question when you phrased or you framed it to us as what have we learned? And the other question is like, what if we not learned or what haven't we solved for? I think identifying the things that we're thinking back to the pandemic, it's all going to come, coming, like rushing back. Like for instance, South Korea is a great example because the way that I remember that wasn't that they were punished for flattening the curve early, it was that they were vulnerable to a variant that came up later. And like, I don't know which one of us has the right narrative still. I think the way I remember flattening the curve when it was a theory that was articulated to me was we just don't want a spike that's going to overload the system right now. We want more time. So just spread it out so that the resources don't get overwhelmed. I think a lot of people understood flatten the curve to mean like never let there be a spike at all. And I think like those are sort of tough things to communicate but, but again like the, the holes in the communication were that the messages weren't ever like really consistent which is tough because we're learning about these things in real time. They're developing the right messages. They go and I get it, it makes sense. But at the same time people have a high expectation for what they want for the communication to be at the time. And now I'm just going to read off like an anonymous email that we got in the staff inbox today, which I think read really puts a bow on the question now that we're asking of like what don't we know? Which is where's the place to go for this information? So this reader wrote, writes in and asks or they say, I commend you for cautioning Americans not to be swayed by scare tactics by either side. I'm a science first person but I'm not sure who to trust. I have faith in the scientific community. I don't have faith in our politicians. I also distrust the American people at large because of how we collectively respond to the pandemic. Maybe my concerns are not warranted, but I'm not sure. Or what sources are you using to just get the facts? I don't know what the source is that everybody can agree on that they want to go to to just get the facts. There's reasons for anybody on either side of the spectrum to distrust the CDC or the World Health Organization. And that's an unfortunate thing that's come out of the COVID era and right now like that is the big vulnerability that I think we're staring down in the hantavirus era. Hopefully it is extremely short and it's just a warning shot across the bow but it's also an opportunity to try to level set. So my hope is that right now we can say let's look at the cdc, the World Health Organization, compare it to things that other countries are saying, compare it to things that we can read. We found for tangle a lot of primary source studies on PubMed which you can go find for yourself that have the data that the CDC is referencing on their site so you can see them for yourselves and then you just see the ones that when there's consistency that's a good sign. But hopefully CDC uses this as an opportunity to model the right communication, regain that trust back so that we can say if you want the information, go there. That would be really wonderful. But it's a huge vulnerability right now.
- [32:41]
Isaac Saul
Yeah. I mean, just to give a quick plug to a friend of the show who I think does awesome work on. This is Caitlin Jettalina from your local epidemiologist. She runs an amazing newsletter. She's plugged Tangle before. She's a former Johns Hopkins epidemiologist who's now kind of an independent writer and almost like in this sort of journalist influencer space as somebody with a very specific expertise. But she is literally an epidemiologist and I think she's super fair minded. She, you know, some of my favorite work that she's done has been documenting her, her experience going into like the Make America Healthy Again movement and meeting with lots of Trump supporters and RFK Jr. Supporters and kind of dialoguing with them about areas where they see eye to eye in areas where there are differences in trying to bridge the gap. Basically out of a recognition that public health experts like her have traditionally come up short on their communication skills and basically how they get through the public. And yeah, throughout the pandemic, she was a super reliable voice who got a ton of things right. And anytime there's like a huge flu outbreak or some new virus or something like this, I'm always reading her newsletter or shooting her text messages asking her questions. When there was the measles outbreak in Texas, I was going to Texas with an eight week old unvaccinated baby. And so her and I had some back and forth and she gave me like some risk assessments and stuff. Anyway, your local epidemiologist is the newsletter. I recommend it and you can, you can tell her we sent you. We'll be right back after this quick break. Missed calls and slow follow ups are silent killers. That's how businesses leave money on the table without even realizing it. And that's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O. That's the business communication system built so you never miss a call. With Quo, your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number, so you don't miss messages or drop conversations. Everyone sees the full thread, replies are faster and customers actually feel taken care of. Quo has become the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3000 reviews built for how modern teams work. And more than 90,000 businesses, from solo operators to growing teams, rely on it to stay connected, professional and consistently reachable. Money is on the line Always say hello with Quo. Try quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com that's quo.comtangle that's quo.comtangle.
- [35:30]
Lemonada Media Narrator
48 million people in the United States are adolescents between the ages of 14 and 24. They're working, parenting, leading, sometimes all at once.
- [35:43]
Young Mother/Student
I'm balancing work and being a mom at the same time, and I'm still on track to graduate with my bachelor's next year.
- [35:51]
Lemonada Media Narrator
So what do today's young people need to truly thrive? Tune in to good things from Lemonada Media to hear the six part Thrive series.
- [36:09]
Isaac Saul
All right, I want to keep the show moving and get onto our next segment here, which is a new one. This is something I'm really excited for. We've been thinking about all these fun little segments that we want to introduce into the show to break up the monotony of the headlines and the news cycle a bit. And one of the ones that I'm really excited about is just taking some of the crazy clips from our political world and giving them a little bit of airtime and convo and reaction right here on the podcast. And I asked John, our wonderful executive producer, to pull together some clips with our social media editor, Russell Nystrom to just keep an eye on the things that were happening in the political space that he felt like might be some good podcast fodder. And they came up with a pretty banger list of things, three for us for this week that I'm excited to dive into. So I'm going to start by pulling up clip number one, I think. Yeah, I think we'll tackle three today. All right, go ahead, you can play the segment. This is Trump with Kirk Signetti, who's the head coach of the Indiana University football team. Think of this, the press conference in 2023 shortly after joining Indiana. Kurt. Who's Kurt? Kurt Signetti. Where is Kirk Signetti? Right here. Huh? Oh, come here, come here. Kurt Signetti has turned out to be, I believe, I think he's the coach of the last decade because definitely seems
- [37:50]
Ari Weitzman
like he knows what he's talking about, right?
- [37:51]
Isaac Saul
Yeah. All right, so for the podcast listeners who maybe can't, aren't on YouTube, Trump is looking around the crowd for Indiana University's football coach, Kirk Signetti, who's standing next to him. And he sort of looks over, he says, who's Kurt? And looks over him a couple times. And then Kurt Signetti, who just won a college football national championship, raised his hand and says, I'm Kurt, sir And then gets a nice big hug from the President. I love this segment because it is the Trump retail. It's like peak Trump retail politician where he is clearly working a room where he knows nothing. He doesn't know who the head. He doesn't. He's like, who's Kurt? The guy is. Their shoulders are literally touching and he still has the, like, the juice to just get a laugh, to get him the smile. They look warm. And then he just, like, immediately pivots into this very clearly. Somebody wrote him this statement where he's saying that he's like the best football coach of the last decade. And we're like, you didn't know who the guy was three seconds ago when your arms were touching. So I'm not so sure.
- [39:02]
Ari Weitzman
He's probably right. I mean, yeah, look at that resume. Holy.
- [39:06]
Isaac Saul
I don't know if he's right. Whoever wrote the speech for him is probably right. Yes. Agree.
- [39:12]
Ari Weitzman
Yes.
- [39:13]
Isaac Saul
All right, let's get to this next clip. This is from a Virginia public radio. I believe it's public radio, but it was a Virginia radio show. A little bit of controversy around some comments made about Hakeem Jeffries. And we'll just play the clip and we'll let you guys react. If Hakeem Jeffries wants to be involved in Virginia politics, then I suggest he does what all a bunch of New Yorkers are doing. Leave New York, move down here to Virginia, run for office. Down here. You can represent us. If not, get your cotton picking hands on, off of Virginia.
- [39:51]
Camille
That's right. Ditto.
- [39:53]
Ari Weitzman
Yes. Yes to that.
- [39:57]
Isaac Saul
Okay, so that is Jen Kiggins who's saying, yes, ditto to get your cotton picking hands off of Virginia. Jen Diggins is a Republican representative who was on this, this radio show. Camille, I saw you do a little. I saw you do the Camille head tilt. You're like a. It's like a dog. Camille's kind of. He's definitely evolved from canines. The curiosity of Camille peaks. There is a very interesting divide about this segment. Obviously, I hear this guy with a Southern drawl, presumably some white dude on the radio station. Jen Kiggins, white representative, cotton picking hands, talking about Hakeem Jeffries, a black representative, the House minority. Not that race is a construct. It's not real. Camille, excuse me, but, like, in our common vernacular, the limited melanated individual framing that we're all forced into, he is a person of color. And I think this seems like a kind of like, slave labor reference. Get your cotton picking hands off Virginia. Go back to New York, et cetera. But not everybody took it that way because apparently this is like a pretty common little Southern turn of phrase. There was some commentary in the tangle Slack. We have a number of people from the. I would say south of the Mason Dixon line, let's just say who said, you know, I kind of heard this. Ari, you were in the Slack. Who said, this is kind of a filler phrase older generations sometimes used. One member of our team who, because of the sensitivity of this topic, I will not name, said, eh. I actually used this phrase a good bit when I was younger growing up in the south and it wasn't. I mean, I'm sure there's racial connotation to it, but it wasn't like an expressly racially combative term. Gentlemen, thoughts. I'd like to hear how you guys heard that clip or what immediately came to mind.
- [42:11]
Camille
I mean, the head tilt for me is because I know exactly how that's going to be interpreted. But yes, that is a colloquialism that you will encounter sometimes. And when I hear it, I actually hear Foghorn Leghorn's voice. So I learned that from, from cartoons. It was years, I was certainly an
- [42:30]
Isaac Saul
adult when I realized, oh, oh,
- [42:33]
Camille
that's where that comes from. That's probably inappropriate. People should probably stop saying that. But the suspicion that most people who say it aren't trying to invoke slavery and the slave trade or make some reference to the person's race who they're referring to. I think that it's fair and reasonable to give people the kind of benefit of the doubt there, just given the fact that this is a part of our speech.
- [43:02]
Ari Weitzman
I had the same kind of reaction. I thought of Bugs Bunny first and remember hearing this phrase in Looney Tunes cartoons. I even put a kind of slack of like Bugs Bunny, like using the phrase saying now just wait a cotton pick and minute. That's like a thing that Bugs Bunny said. I'm quoting Bugs Bunny, like he's a person. But I think I'll refrain from elaborating anymore and just stand behind the opinions of a strong black man such as Camille. Let you do my thinking for me.
- [43:35]
Camille
There's some qualifications there, but sure.
- [43:37]
Ari Weitzman
That was very much said to get a reaction and you gave me none. So commend. Commend you for that.
- [43:44]
Isaac Saul
I, I mean this, this has to be. I guess I'm a woke lib. We gotta retire this phrase. I mean there is, there is a direct. This isn't like, like inextricably linked from slavery I would say, yeah. Cotton picking?
- [44:04]
Ari Weitzman
I don't know.
- [44:05]
Camille
Well, I just think the important thing here is, like, who. Who is being wounded? Like, the. The reality is that when we start to police speech in this way, it's like, well, wait, we should be offended by this. Do we know. Do you know, like, Camptown Racers and a bunch of other songs that we sung as children, that the original versions of them are, I mean, unbelievably bad? Like, really, really, really bad. Does that mean that we should stop singing them now and that children should stop singing them going forward because of the history associated with them? I mean, we can do that if we want to, but we're not really saving anyone when we do that. We're just being puritanical. And I think in this particular instance, I don't know that we need to be puritanical. We know what he was trying to say. Should people try to be a little bit more sophisticated? Fine. But no one is being let out of subjugation because we police our language a little bit more forcefully in a context like this.
- [45:00]
Ari Weitzman
We do have good alternatives, though. We could just say they're great alternatives.
- [45:04]
Isaac Saul
Yes.
- [45:04]
Ari Weitzman
Dad gum's great.
- [45:05]
Isaac Saul
Yeah. You know what, Camille? Of all the things you said, I think that last part is the most compelling to me. Like, who's being wounded? What do we gain from kind of policing this sort of interaction? Because nobody's mad at the radio host. Everybody's mad at the Republican representative who said, like, ditto. I agree.
- [45:26]
Camille
She didn't even say it.
- [45:27]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, right. The expectation is that she should, in this public radio thing, say to the host. He was clearly giving her some friendly. Some friendly interview. Like, I don't think you should use that expression anymore, which is, yeah, you have to have a very certain high standard of what's, like, socially unacceptable in order to interject in a way like that. I think it is. There's a lot of social complication in policing somebody else's language. And she clearly chose not to do anything other than just say, yeah, I totally agree. And even her. You can hear. I think there's some awkwardness for her. You can almost pick up on where it's like she recognizes she's backed into a corner. Bad if I police this guy's language. Bad if I disagree with what he's saying. Kind of, oh, yeah, ditto what you said. And just like, interview over. Yeah. All right, let's get to our last clip here, which is Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.
- [46:24]
Camille
There are a lot of people who would like you to run for president in 2028. Apparently some of them are here and there are people who. There are others who would like you to run for the United States Senate. Senator Schumer's up in 2028. I don't know, it sounded like even more, should we do it to New
- [47:03]
Young Mother/Student
York or to other parts of the country?
- [47:07]
Camille
How many would like AOC to stay in Congress? See, they want you to make a move. Yeah. What say you about all of this?
- [47:21]
Young Mother/Student
You know, it's funny because in this op ed that Jeff Bezos paid for in the Washington Post, there was this line that you had mentioned earlier about, well, as a potential 2028 contender, XYZ. And in the context of that, it was very clear this was a veiled threat. Right. So the elite saying, if you want this job, you just stepped out of line. And we want you to know where the real power is. And it's in the modern day barons who own the Post and own the algorithms. And we're gonna, we'll make an example out of you. And what's funny about that is that they assume that my ambition is positional. They assume that my ambition is a title or a seat. And my ambition is way bigger than that. My ambition is to change this country. Presidents come and go, Senate, House seats, elected officials come and go, but single payer health care is forever, a living wage is forever, workers rights are forever, women's rights, all of that. And so anyway, But a finer point to your question is that when you aren't attached, right, when you haven't been like fantasizing about being this or that since the time you were seven years
- [49:15]
Isaac Saul
old,
- [49:19]
Young Mother/Student
it is tremendously liberating because I get to wake up every day and say, how am I going to meet
- [49:27]
Isaac Saul
the moment she's running? She is definitely running.
- [49:34]
Camille
No, this is for the Senate or the presidency?
- [49:37]
Isaac Saul
For the presidency. I think. Actually, First of all, I'm interested to hear from you guys. I have a good sense, I think, of what both of you might be thinking or saying. I actually think that's a great answer, for what it's worth. I mean, there's like political stuff in there that I would probe if I were on stage with her. But the idea that she cares more about the movement and these sort of things that will live beyond her than she cares about a title, I think that's actually a really nice. I mean, it's clearly a scripted thing that was concocted in the lab, but I like that. And I think, like, I wish more politicians thought about that, like what sorts of change for the positive vision of my vision for the country can outlive me and are detached from what my power, title or control is. But we had this event in Los Angeles in Orange county when we were on stage. Camille and I were on stage with Alex Thompson, the reporter from Axios, who I got to speak with backstage a bunch who's notoriously one of the most well sourced people in D.C. and he was just saying she is going to have the biggest war chest of any sort of rising star in the party going into 2028. And she kind of has her choice about how to navigate that. I think the Senate is a given and I think that she would beat Chuck Schumer. I think she could potentially mop the floor with him in a primary. I think people are that dissatisfied with his leadership and he's, you know, you, I don't know if you ever like watched a Chuck Schumer press conference, but it's not inspiring stuff.
- [51:34]
Ari Weitzman
It's hard to make it through one. I'll say that.
- [51:36]
Isaac Saul
It's hard to make it through one. And I don't think he's faced real, real combative challenges. And I think at this stage in his career he would have a really, really hard time fending her off. But as I think about the field for 2028, I, you know, aside from Gavin Newsom, maybe it's hard for me to imagine a more obvious front runner for the Democratic Party who is representative of the populist moment, who could fundraise, who could stand toe to toe with whoever comes up on the other side, whether it's Vance or Rubio or Don Jr. Or whatever. I mean, she's got the progressive bona fides and I think the Democratic base who typically in the past, in every election for the last 20 or 30 years has resisted that shift to the left or tapped out of the election. The general if it's come down to a progressive and more moderate Republican or something, the environment is not such that they would refuse to punch a ballot for aoc. I mean, she would get those votes too. So, yeah, a very interesting answer. That was very, very directly not a no, I'm not running for President in 2028, which I found quite interesting.
- [53:00]
Camille
It's the sort of thing, though, Isaac, where she knows that question is coming anytime she's out on public in a context like that. And I actually would have expected the answer to be a little bit better. It is certainly good that she leaned into policy and talked about the things that she would actually try to achieve on people's behalf. And we can talk about the kind of quality of those ideas another time. But you know, AOC as a candidate statewide, I think it's very different than running for her district in New York. I think that she and Mamdani are certainly very popular with a particular wing of the party. But as a statewide or a national candidate, they're kind of polarizing in certain regards. And given the choice between a more mainstream Democrat, even one that doesn't have the name recognition, I think plenty of Democrats might actually look the other way. So I'm perhaps a little less bullish on this. But that said, is she a dynamic political figure? Yes, absolutely. Is she? Certainly. I'm reminded of Jasmine Crockett's difficulty that she had in Texas. And I think AOC is more sophisticated and more polished than Jasmine Crockett is in a lot of respects. Also, Jasmine Crockett, as we've talked about on the podcast, was actually a more conventional candidate, despite the fact that she had this kind of appeal that made her seem as though she was a member of the squad. So I think that is perhaps a difference. But I also think that the outcome that Jasmine faced as a really, really high profile Democrat who wasn't able to get the job done against someone who was a little bit viewed as a little bit more conventional, might be a bit of a warning for someone like aoc.
- [54:39]
Isaac Saul
Can I just. Just something really quickly about the statewide stuff? Here's what I would say. I've actually spent a lot of time in more rural parts of New York. My wife's brother has a house kind of up in the Hudson Valley, and I've been to upstate New York a few times. I'm reminded of a.m. hickman, who's penned a piece for Tangle, who has written, you know, writes his newsletter, the Hinterlands. From ostensibly rural New York. Though he moves around quite a bit. It is a hollowed out, pretty dilapidated area all across. I mean, from the Hudson Valley up to Albany through Buffalo. Like, there are so many places in New York, the wider New York region, that have been crushed by de industrialization, that have basically watched the economy fall out, that are struggling with opioid addiction, that are just sort of representative of the kinds of places that Trump sort of thrived in as an entry point, as a politician, by delivering the burn it all down populist sentiment. And Chuck Schumer's not capable of that. I mean, he has no standing to walk that message into those neighborhoods. And AOC does. I Mean, I think on the cultural stuff, which maybe will continue to win the day, she has an uphill battle there. And for sure by being perceived as being far left and left of Schumer, that's a problem. But on the economics of it, on the anti billionaire, anti corporate power workers rights, raise the minimum wage, I think that message lands even in Trump country, in rural New York. That's my sense of the temperament and the spot that we're in as a country right now. And I actually disagree a bit. I think that she would win a statewide election pretty well. I think she's different from Mamdani in that she doesn't have the same sort of baggage of the, like the Muslim mayor in the post 911 city New York who is like in the commi. Like literally in the Communist Party, like she can, she can walk out the. I've supported Israel, I've worked with moderate Democrats. I have bipartisan legislation also. I have like the bartender story and the workers rights story and the Bernie story. You know, I don't know, it feels like a little bit of a different dynamic in terms of like the cultural, social things she would have to overcome to get there. But I mean, we're. I think we're gonna find out. I mean, I think her running for Senate is a given. I think the question is whether she actually takes a swing for the fences and goes for a presidential bid, which I think would be kind of silly, to be honest. I think doing a six year term in the Senate and then running if she's like got the long game in mind is the path. But yeah, interesting. Ari, any thoughts there on the AOC clip?
- [58:00]
Ari Weitzman
I'll try to edge in quickly. I think you break it down along two lines. So there's the second half of the answer and the first half of the answer. The second half of the answer is a good pivot towards the issues and away from the question of are you running in that way. It's apt and polished. I think it's very likely just to kind of rephrase what she said, that she runs for at least the Senate. The question is Senate or president. And I think, I mean, just like she should wipe the floor with Schumer in a Democratic Senate primary in New York, across the state, in New York City for sure. And then across the state, like Schumer is not a very compelling candidate at this point. I think he can just hang all of the Democrat minority party in the Senate issues on Schumer pretty easily and not entirely unfairly. And I think she would crush him. When it comes to running for a presidential primary nationally as a Democrat, I mean, it's possible, but I would see her as just the inheritor of the Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren fortune of, like, run from the left and lose. Like, I think that would probably. I. It's hard for me to foresee any other thing. The first part of the answer I thought was a little. Was kind of strange. I think she tried to pivot towards Bezos and get that in there. And there's something about me as a UChicago grad, and she's giving this speech in Rockefeller Chapel at UChicago, which was founded based on a very generous donation from the Rockefeller family, Thinking about, like, these robber barons give these huge donations to these giant institutions, and then we get to benefit from them. The Washington Post and University of Chicago are different things, but just thinking about the optics of going after the rich person who's invested heavily into an institution while you're sitting in a chapel that was bought by a rich person who invested into an institution is like, it's. It's noticeable to at least, you know, one person, I'm sure several. But I think that would probably be an issue that's representative of what a national run for her would look like. Whereas the Senate, I think, is right there. And I think she'd win for sure. She would belong in a national race, but I would be really skeptical that she would win it.
- [60:19]
Isaac Saul
All right, we're coming up on a little over an hour here, so I think it's time for that special part of the show where we get to complain a little bit about the mundane things in our lives that are really, really bothering us and then send you guys off. So, John, you can play the music for our grievances section, my friend, the airing of grievances.
- [60:46]
Camille
Between you and me, I think your
- [60:47]
Isaac Saul
country is placing a lot of importance on shoe removal. Any takers at first at bat? How are we feeling today, gentlemen?
- [60:56]
Ari Weitzman
Well, I've sort of had this new conception towards how I'm approaching the grievances section, which.
- [61:01]
Isaac Saul
Oh, God, I hope I like this.
- [61:04]
Ari Weitzman
It's essentially a platform to try to get everybody out there to crowdsource the small issues that we have. I. I discovered this last week when I was like, man, it's so hard to just get a prescription filled for albuterol. And we got all of these recommendations, and one person even said, you can get this thing that's essentially albuterol. It's just, like, aerosolized, and it's at a Smaller concentration. You could buy it over the counter. And I did that and now I have that. So, like, thank you to that breeder.
- [61:35]
Camille
Wow.
- [61:35]
Isaac Saul
Can I, can I just say, just to my, my staff concurrence, it is. Our audience is incredible. Like, I, I, I had a totally similar experience. I made that sort of offhanded comment about the plumbing stuff going on and was like, if anybody knows a good plumber in New Jersey, just, like, bullshitting. And then I got like 20 recommendations for really good ethical plumbers in northern New Jersey. And I was like, this is unbelievable. Like, we are. I underestimate the power of the megaphone, but totally endorse that statement. And this maybe could just be a space where we solve all the problems in our lives by crowdsourcing ideas, but
- [62:16]
Camille
I like this reformulation. All right, this works. This works really well. And now I actually have a grievance for this week. I was hoping you might.
- [62:24]
Isaac Saul
Yeah, a problem to solve. All right, well, Camille, why don't you get us started then?
- [62:31]
Camille
Well, this is week number two of me with the glasses. And as I mentioned last week, this is a real thing. These are not readers. I have both. I'm near and farsighted. I have astigmatism. This is my progressive lenses that I'm wearing now, which apparently also have the transitions thing in there. I essentially just took all the features. It's like, yes, give me all of the things. It was probably a mistake. I think they're transitioning a little bit too much. The progressive thing is hard to actually figure out. Maybe I should just have two different sets of glasses. Although it's hard not see far when you can't see through. Whatever. The thing that's really bothering me at
- [63:03]
Ari Weitzman
the moment, complaining about transitioning in progressives,
- [63:05]
Isaac Saul
it's just
- [63:09]
Camille
what's really bothering me at the moment is the reflection of the light on my glasses, which it hadn't even occurred to me that that was something I need to worry about. I did get the anti glare, and that's not really working as advertised. But also the frame is reflective too, so I'm not sure if there's something else I need to do. I think that these are very fetching frames and I don't want to have to get some other ones that aren't quite so fetching. And I definitely don't want to have to shove stuff in my eyeballs. So maybe someone has some advice, because it does feel like in 2026, like, this should be a problem for me, like it should be able to deal
- [63:43]
Isaac Saul
with that, you need crowdsourcing of one, which is me, as a fellow glasses wearer who does podcasts, YouTube stuff. The key is that your light has to be high. You've got to raise the light. That's the only option. There's. I've. I mean, maybe our audience knows a better choice, but. Yeah, I mean, you can see if I look at the light. Yeah, the glare, but it's. It's up here. You got a little bit of the shiny forehead, but you're a hat guy, so you'll be fine. That's kind of your only way out, man, I gotta say.
- [64:13]
Ari Weitzman
It's a geometry problem, really.
- [64:15]
Isaac Saul
It's a geometry problem. There's nothing you can do. Light reflects off of glasses. And I don't think. I actually don't think that we've solved that scientifically yet, though. If our audience has an answer to that, I will maybe retire or something. I will just quit. But, yeah. All right, Ari, let's hear it, man.
- [64:35]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah, I think my grievance is going to be, again, canine in nature. So I'm passing on a grievance for a member of my household, which is. Cali Dog is recovering from her ACL repair very well and very happy with the comments that we got from readers discussing what that would be like at this point. Now we're on to a new thing that we have to. I've been trying to think this is problem that we probably don't have to solve, but now I'm not so sure. She has this. Do you guys know what lipomas are?
- [65:08]
Camille
No.
- [65:08]
Ari Weitzman
It's essentially just a fatty cell tumor. It's, like, completely benign. It's just like, fat cells get masses into older dogs. And if you pet an older dog and you feel a lump, it's usually a lipoma or a lipoma. And it's like, not. It's only an issue if it's uncomfortable for their movement. Callie has one on her side. She's another, like, near her, like, breastplate, and one, like, kind of back on her hip. And they don't bother her. But she also has one in a place that every vet that I've talked to is like, I've never seen lipoma there. Theoretically possible, but that's really weird. Which is right at the tip of her right front paw pad. So it now protrudes past her paw pad. So she doesn't walk on her pad anymore. She walks on this tumor. And it's not. Not very comfortable for her. And, like, because the pad has evolved to develop to walk on terrains like a fatty skin lump isn't. So we've been thinking, I've been watching her walk and she seems to be okay now that she's recovering from the ACL surgery. She's noticeably starting to favor that, that forelimb a little bit. And I'm like, I don't want to have to put you through another surgery, my friend. But like, it seems, it seems like maybe it's the right call at this point to have to do that. And I really don't want to have to make that call. Like, I've tried to do the things where you put things on the paws to like wax them up or put like baby socks or like moccasins that you can buy and they just come off. She just takes them off right away. So like, that's just a non starter and I've tried a bunch. So I'm not optimistic that we're going to find the one that works now. But like, I don't know, like, I think it would be helpful for her, but I don't want to have to put her through another surgery. So what do I do? I'm just such a grievance that I wish somebody would solve it.
- [66:55]
Isaac Saul
That is. I feel like we just broke new ground. A dog. A grievance from a dog. Read out loud on the show. Callie has transmitted herself into the podcast. Well, Ari was just visiting in New Jersey. I actually got to see. He came by my house with Callie and I got to see the dog's paw, which was intense. It is like a. It is a growth. It is a kind of scary looking thing. So I hope Callie's okay. I'm rooting for her always. I don't know what the answer to that is. I'm pro dogs and shoes though, so that would be cool. All right. My grievance is very straightforward. Uber sucks and I think it's over.
- [67:40]
Ari Weitzman
Podcast over.
- [67:41]
Isaac Saul
Yeah. If you want to sponsor us and change my mind, I'll take your money, Uber. But currently I think that you suck. I think that Uber is one of the great downfalls of any app. It is more expensive, longer wait, less reliable, and just like, maybe also, I was going to say weirder drivers, but that's probably not true. Just like I've had some weird interactions in Uber recently that I wasn't crazy about. And like, I'm an Uber. I am like the guy who chats it up with basically every Uber driver I have. I'm not a headphones in, quiet guy. I am like a What's up? Where are you from? How. And I'm just like, they're getting a little weirder. But really my issue is Uber compared to Lyft. This morning I got. I was about to call an Uber from my home to go to Newark Penn Station. It was like $50 for a 20 minute ride. And I was like, that seems insanely expensive. And then I pull it up on lyft and it's $31 and it got there five minutes quicker. The Uber wait was nine minutes, the Lyft wait was four minutes. So I ordered the lift, it showed up, everything's gravy. I arrive in Philadelphia, I opened my phone to call an uber. It's a 10 minute wait and it's like $33 or something to get from the Amtrak station to my office in Philly. I walk outside, there's a line of taxi cabs. I get into one of the cabs and I get a ride down to the office and it's $15. And I pay them and we have a nice chat and it's over. And I'm like, this, this is broken. Something about their model has broken. I've tweeted about this like a few months ago. Almost everywhere I go now, it is more convenient for me to walk out of airports, bus stations, train stations, and walk into a taxi cab line and get in a cab. It'll be less time waiting and cheaper to get wherever I'm going than it is to go to the app, ride pickup and order an Uber. And if I am using an app, it's almost always Lyft. I don't know what happened, but they're very close to being on my, like, done shit list. I'm not using this company anymore.
- [69:55]
Camille
Yeah.
- [69:55]
Isaac Saul
Am I alone? Similar experiences for anybody else.
- [69:59]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah, I know this experience too. And I think it goes to what a friend of the show Derek Thompson has talked about as the death of the millennial lifestyle subsidy, which is this theory that Lyft and Uber were propped up by having all of this VC money to put out this product that they were losing money on every time somebody used it. But if they could just get users and show growth and user base and they could then grow the company and eventually turn a profit once they had their entire operation up and running, and then now that they're at the point where they have to start posting profits, or this was several years ago, when they're at the point where they had to start posting profits, then the prices went up, which meant you could position the understanding of this VC money as a subsidy to people who would use this, AKA like millennials, people who wanted to solve problems that kind of. They there existed solutions for using a smartphone. So like doordash, food, apps like that, like grocery drop offs, all of those things that helped to subsidize the millennial lifestyle were easier with VC money. And now that they have to start posting profits, you're paying the real price for those things. And unfortunately, you know, unless somebody wants to reinvent the wheel and get more VC money, that just might be the way it goes. And we're back in the taxis.
- [71:14]
Isaac Saul
Yeah. Although it sounds like I'd ask, like,
- [71:16]
Camille
Lyft is a little bit better. It sounds like. I mean, I don't even know if I have Lyft installed.
- [71:20]
Ari Weitzman
Yeah, I was gonna say it varies based on location.
- [71:23]
Isaac Saul
I was gonna ask Camille his opinion. Then I remembered that he Ubers helicopters around New York City.
- [71:31]
Camille
Different.
- [71:32]
Isaac Saul
Different hat.
- [71:32]
Ari Weitzman
He's waiting till the PC money dries up for them.
- [71:38]
Isaac Saul
I'm still waiting to give a my try on the app where you get armed security guards as your drivers. That's like the coolest app I've ever heard. I can't remember its name, but I'm gonna do that at some point and write a story about it. All right, gentlemen, thanks for being here. It was a great hang and we'll see you guys next week. All right, cheers.
- [71:59]
Ari Weitzman
Peace.
- [72:00]
Isaac Saul
Our executive editor and founder is me, Isaac Saul, and our executive producer is John Lowell. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dewey Thompson. Our editorial staff is led by Managing editor Ari Weitzman with Senior editor Will Kbach and Associate editors Audrey Moorhead, Lindsey Knuth, and Bailey Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by Diet75. To learn more about Tangle and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website@retangle.com.
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