Tangle Podcast – "Suspension of the rules"

Isaac, Ari, and Kmele Talk Free Speech in Vermont

Date: September 21, 2025
Host: Isaac Saul
Guests: Ari Weitzman & Camille Foster

Episode Overview

In this special, in-person episode from a sun-drenched Airbnb in South Burlington, Vermont, Isaac Saul, Ari Weitzman, and Camille Foster gather to dive deep into the current state of free speech in America. Against the tranquil backdrop of Lake Champlain, the trio discuss the fallout from the Jimmy Kimmel–FCC controversy, the cultural climate for free speech under consecutive administrations, and how both left and right wings are implicated in censorship. The episode is marked by candid personal reflections and a lively, occasionally irreverent tone.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene and Jumping In

• The group jokes about being together in person amidst the "absurd beauty" of Vermont, fresh off a brewery tour ([03:04]).
• Early banter segues quickly into weighty issues: Camille's recent controversial appearance questioning Barack Obama's racial identity, and broader points about the complexities of identity in America ([03:33]–[05:41]).

2. Camille Foster on Obama's Identity and Free Speech

• Camille explains that his on-air challenge of "Is Obama black?" was meant to question American concepts of race, not Obama's identity per se ([03:52]).

  “I was challenging the notion of blackness and race in general. And also calling out everyone on set for employing the one drop rule and the brown paper bag test without really thinking about it.” – Camille Foster ([03:52])

• The table discusses the complicated, often contradictory ways society enforces identity, and how these complexities are flattened in media discourse.

3. The Trump/Obama Legacy and Polarization

• The conversation shifts to whether Barack Obama is to blame for deep political polarization or just associated with its rise ([07:02]).

  “I think it's entirely possible for Barack Obama's presidency to be associated with a moment when things started to change, but that doesn't suggest that he himself was uniquely responsible for it.” – Camille Foster ([07:02])

• Isaac notes the "Ben Shapiro take" that Obama stoked divisions instead of healing them, while countering with the rightwing birth certificate conspiracy targeting Obama ([09:04]).

4. The Charlie Kirk Assassination & The State of Free Speech

• The hosts frame the current moment as critical for free speech, citing the on-campus killing of Charlie Kirk as a symbolic flashpoint ([10:11]).

  “You have a young man who dies with a microphone in his hand, speaking on a college campus underneath a sign that says 'debate me.' That’s an extraordinary thing to have happen.” – Camille Foster ([10:11])

• They note increased polarization, with both sides "retreating to their corners" in interpreting events.

5. The Jimmy Kimmel–FCC–Disney Controversy

Background:

• FCC Chair Brendan Carr, on a far-right podcast, suggests revoking ABC's affiliate licenses to pressure Disney to punish Jimmy Kimmel for his monologue about the Kirk assassination ([11:48]).

Isaac’s Take:

• Isaac is alarmed by Carr’s appearance on Benny Johnson’s show and sees the event as a dangerous escalation for government-led speech restriction.

  “I think this is probably one of the most dangerous moments for free speech rights in American history. I really believe that.” – Isaac Saul ([12:54])

Discussion of Kimmel’s Monologue:

• Kimmel’s actual comments weren’t especially inflammatory, according to the panel. Their worry is less about the substance of the joke than about the precedent of government intervention.

  “Is that a crime? Is that what the FCC is there for? Policing whether or not comedians are spending a sufficient amount of time hammering both sides? Are the jokes sufficiently funny?” – Camille Foster ([21:29])

6. Historical and Comparative Context

• Ari places the current moment in context with prior threats: McCarthyism, post-9/11 anti-Muslim sentiment, etc. ([30:10]).

• Camille draws a distinction between the brazen style under Trump and the perhaps more insidious, “sophisticated” approach under earlier administrations.

  “There's a kind of status quo level of, kind of danger to free expression that we have been wrestling with for some time.” – Camille Foster ([29:33])

• Ari notes:

  “If you were a Muslim post-9/11 worshiping in peace…that was a huge threat [to free speech]. Go back to McCarthyism, that's probably the biggest threat...” – Ari Weitzman ([30:10])

• Isaac argues the present is different, citing a coordinated governmental campaign to jail and deport Americans for protected speech, unprecedented legal actions against the press, and pressure on media and corporate mergers ([31:18]).

  “If you look at the whole...you have the president openly strong arming universities and law firms into settlements. They're deporting people for speech, screening people at the border for social media stuff ... for things that are, I mean, objectively political expression.” – Isaac Saul ([31:18])

7. The Importance of Free Speech Culture

• Camille and Isaac reference Jacob Mchangama’s scholarship, discussing how cultural acceptance of censorship often precedes the legal curtailment of rights ([37:54]).

  “It seemed to me as if the culture, the free speech culture degrades first and then the law follows.” – Isaac Saul ([38:19])

• Isaac worries that normalization of government retaliation—especially as media mergers become more politicized—may rapidly erode liberty ([38:39]–[41:19]).

8. Signs of Resistance and Potential Solutions

• Despite gloom, the panel spotlights pushback from within the GOP and conservative media:

  “Ted Cruz...is in the New York Times this week referring to Carr tactics as kind of mafia bullshit...” – Camille Foster ([43:31]) “Ben Shapiro said, 'I do not want the FCC in the business of telling local affiliates that their licenses will be removed if they broadcast material that the FCC deems... false. Why? Because one day the shoe will be on the other foot.'” – Isaac Saul ([45:25])

• Positive signals: Ari and Camille highlight prominent voices from both left and right acknowledging past mistakes, suggesting a healthier culture of reflection ([54:23]).

9. Is This a Trump Problem or a Structural Problem?

• The group debates: is the problem Trump’s opportunistic style, or a broader slide in free speech norms? Ari suggests Trump is an “opportunist” rather than an ideologue ([48:28]).
• All agree the trend is worrisome, and note the persistent precedent of governments stifling speech for political advantage across both parties ([50:54]–[55:24]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Flattened Race Discourse:

  “Barack Obama...is as black as he is white, as he is mixed race. And the notion that he is absolutely any one of those things is preposterous.”
  – Camille Foster ([04:22])

• On Media Spectacle:

  “There is something hilarious about watching you try and galaxy brain people with stuff that I've heard you talk about in private but never seen you try to take publicly on a national stage.”
  – Isaac Saul to Camille Foster ([09:36])

• On the Current Free Speech Climate:

  “I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that...this is probably one of the most dangerous moments for free speech rights in American history.”
  – Isaac Saul ([12:54])

  “Carr did, like, the Mafia guy thing. 'We could do this the easy way or the hard way.'”
  – Isaac Saul ([26:04])

• On Cultural Versus Legal Degradation:

  “It seemed to me as if the culture, the free speech culture degrades first and then the law follows.”
  – Isaac Saul ([38:19])

• On Partisan Contradictions:

  “It's easy for the right to surface clips of people like Jimmy Kimmel advocating for various kinds of censorship and kind of deplatforming, while also complaining about what's happening to Jimmy Kimmel...”
  – Camille Foster ([35:18])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening Banter & Vermont Setting: [02:04]–[03:07]
• Obama Race Conversation: [03:39]–[09:33]
• Kirk Assassination & Free Speech Framing: [10:11]–[11:48]
• Jimmy Kimmel–FCC Controversy: [11:48]–[21:58], [23:31]–[26:26]
• Macro Threats to Free Speech: [29:33]–[33:51]
• Historical Comparisons & European Context: [33:51]–[41:19]
• Cultural Degradation of Free Speech: [37:54]–[41:19]
• Signs of Political Pushback: [43:31]–[45:29]
• Are Americans Sufficiently Concerned?: [53:09]–[55:24]
• Reflections on Left & Right Failures: [54:23]–[55:52]
• Grievance Segment (Personal Stories): [56:40]–[64:13]
• Closing: [64:13]

Tone & Style

• Language: Blunt, disarmingly candid; occasionally playful or irreverent.
• Dynamic: The hosts are intensely engaged, frequently citing recent news, podcasts, and the broader sociopolitical landscape. Jokes and personal anecdotes lighten deep, sometimes ominous analysis.
• Perspective: Principally skeptical of government power—regardless of party—and committed to a non-partisan, pro–free speech lens, with criticism for both left and right.

Summary Takeaways

• Both political sides have endangered free speech rights.
  • The Kimmel–FCC episode, occurring in a climate of intensifying government hostility, is viewed as an escalation and a precedent-setting move.
• The present moment is uniquely dangerous—not because the dynamic is new, but because of its brazenness, speed, and normalization.
• Hope comes from growing awareness and resistance—including from unlikely quarters on the right—as well as open admissions of past overreach from the left.
• Ultimately, the panel urges vigilance: cultural complacency and the normalization of censorship are the true threats, regardless of which party is wielding the power.

For listeners who missed the episode:
You will come away with a nuanced understanding of the current flashpoints in the ongoing American free speech debate, how today's battles echo (and differ from) historical precedent, and why the cultural landscape of speech rights is just as critical as the legal one. The episode features insightful, sharply critical, and sometimes humorous takes on the issues shaping the "rules" of public discourse.